#indieweb 2020-03-09

2020-03-09 UTC
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Cidjjvnrefg
A friend mentioned indieweb to me very recently. I’m a heavy Facebook and twitter user, I feel constrained by basic Wordpress blogs and I keep thinking to myself “I should have a weird little website”. However I don’t have much money and I have even less skills. Any general thoughts?
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Cidjjvnrefg
Maybe I should clarify re: lack of skills. I don’t know the first thing about any web hosting or web design or tech stuff.
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[KevinMarks]
micro.blog may suit
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[tantek]
yes definitely checkout https://micro.blog/
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Cidjjvnrefg
I had a look at that once but it’s not really weird enough... still has the linear blog/twitter flow... which might be part of what I would like, but I’d also just like to have weird zones and galleries - like when you find a weird artist’s website and it’s just annoying and you close the tab.
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Cidjjvnrefg
Thank you btw
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vilhalmer
the good news is there are a lot of really good tools for learning web dev these days
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vilhalmer
for example, glitch.com
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vilhalmer
(I've never actually used it but I see it around constantly)
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[tantek]
or maybe Neocities?
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[tantek]
what is Neocities
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Loqi
NeoCities is a free website hosting silo in the spirit of defunct silo GeoCities (Yahoo shutdown in 2009) that looks like a stepping stone to getting started on the IndieWeb https://indieweb.org/NeoCities
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vilhalmer
neocities is probably better for this
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[tantek]
https://micro.blog/ is very good for replacing "heavy Facebook and twitter" use. And I think NeoCities is a good playground for "weird".
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Cidjjvnrefg
Ooh thanks I haven’t heard of that. When I experimented with HTML around 2001 I was annoyed at how quickly things were changing. One minute your site was fine, the next your plugin whatever was insecure and hack able
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vilhalmer
good news, that still happens
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Cidjjvnrefg
Brilliant - I’ll explore both of these thank you
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vilhalmer
but we stopped using plugins which helped
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[tantek]
Also check out https://brutalistwebsites.com/ for awesome examples of weird & inspiring websites
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vilhalmer
I hand-craft all the html on my site at the moment and it hasn't broken in several years
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[tantek]
:thumbsup_all:
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vilhalmer
local development can be as easy as a text editor and running `caddy` in the directory
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vilhalmer
don't need any of the fancy features, though it has many
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Cidjjvnrefg
Thank you for all this stuff! I’ve got loads to explore now!
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vilhalmer
enjoy :)
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vilhalmer
I really enjoy the instant feedback aspect of working on web stuff
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vilhalmer
definitely spend the time to learn your browser's inspector, they've gotten really good in the last couple years
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vilhalmer
especially for debugging css interactions
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[KevinMarks]
you might like fluffy's approach at http://beesbuzz.biz/
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Loqi
fluffy
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Cidjjvnrefg
Moving sideways a bit - I was looking at Roam (roamresearch.com) and I like the idea of something networked and bi-directional linking, something emergent and less heirarchical. The same friend shared this with me: https://blog.jethro.dev/posts/introducing_org_roam/ how hardcore do you think this is for a total noob?
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Cidjjvnrefg
Thank you for the above comments while I was typing mine :)
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vilhalmer
things get more complicated when you need code running on the server side instead of just serving html to the browser
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Cidjjvnrefg
I have the attention span of a disappointing pet dog. One you have hopes for but then eventually realise you just have to accept that’s how he got made
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vilhalmer
looks at pile of projects with one or two commits
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vilhalmer
I know the feeling
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Cidjjvnrefg
He means well... but, y’knos
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Cidjjvnrefg
*y’know
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vilhalmer
I'd recommend focusing on learning enough html+css to get something up and accessible
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Cidjjvnrefg
Neocities looks like ridiculous fun
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vilhalmer
that will help motivating yourself to continue instead of having no visible results for a long while
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Cidjjvnrefg
That sounds like good advice
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Cidjjvnrefg
Is there much out there that’s like store-bought indieweb? Or is that a contradiction? I suppose micro.blog is like what I mean. You can pay, get a service, not need to code, and still be off the corporate web
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Cidjjvnrefg
Thanks to the person who mentioned brutalistwebsites.com - that’s exactly the kind of weird, annoying, creative stuff I was meaning
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[ColinMorris]
I love the no pressure feel I get from #indieweb. Felt like tinkering, tinkered. Some worked and some didn’t. Learned. Yay!
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Loqi
does a happy dance!
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pythonfx
hello
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joshghent
Well done on the frontpage jamietanna[m] - nice article!
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joshghent
Frontpage of HN that is
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[g33kcentric]
Morning all! Had a pretty productive weekend with my personal site so thats put me in a good mood!
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[g33kcentric]
A question - If one were to start thinking about setting up a homebrew website club, where would you start, finding people, getting to know their technical experience etc, im a web developer by trade so the tech part is nay problem, but stereotypically the social side is, especially when you dont have any contacts in the area you live.
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jamietanna[m]
Thanks joshghent!
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vika_nezrimaya
good morning indieweb
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[g33kcentric]
morning!
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jamietanna[m]
[g33kcentric] I started one in Nottingham where we have a strong tech community, and I knew folks would be interested in it. I've had folks join us who've not been in the community up until then. Where abouts are you based?
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Loqi
happy day
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vika_nezrimaya
I love how it's always morning somewhere even though it's literally past noon in Russia
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[g33kcentric]
well its 10.23 am here in the UK 🙂
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vika_nezrimaya
I'm exactly 3 hours later :3 so it's 13:24
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[g33kcentric]
In Woking Jamie, its just south of london, i know there is a homebrew club in London, but we are outside of it enough, for it to be a bit of a bark to get too, especially considering its one of the busiest train lines in the country!
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GWG
Morning
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pythonfx
gg
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Kopsi
Hi
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[jgmac1106]
[g33kcentric] i have a few HWCs I support. New Haven is more youth directed and Accra more college age adults
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[jgmac1106]
Honestly best bet find 1-2 people and a venue. Hang out and talk about your sites. All you need
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Kopsi
I just asked in the #dev channel and was referred to this one: I am researching IndieWeb for my masters thesis and was curious, whether there have been any recent privacy/security surveys of it. Google hasn't provided any results regarding this, so i was curious, whether there was something unpublished or published in a way that couldn't be found by Google.
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[jgmac1106]
Kopsi researcher as well... But more a cognitive scientist studying learning in IndiewWeb
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[jgmac1106]
Have to get kids to school but will catch up later
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[jgmac1106]
One thing privacy isn't security. But privacy, security, and openness all dance to the same tune
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beko
Somebody knows what happens to bookmark-of on micro.blog? Webmention is accepted by the server (202) but I don't see it showing up anywhere (I assumed Mentions)
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jamietanna[m]
[g33kcentric] what's the tech scene like in Woking? I'd definitely recommend setting one up - you don't need to do anything like getting official venues, mine is in the cafe area of a boardgame cafe. I'd say just see what happens. I get between 1 and 10 people regularly 🤷🏽‍♂️
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[g33kcentric]
i have no idea what its like! Which probably means its non-existant 😄 there arn't any big tech companies here
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Kopsi
@jgmac1106 Right now I am deciding whether my focus will be on privacy or security. Both have different implications, however security can affect privacy more than vice-versa. Since I am slightly more experienced in the security area, I will probably focus on that, but I was wondering if someone had done research in that matter already before I invest time to just confirm earlier findings.
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[KevinMarks]
I have a similar problem up here in middlesbrough - there is more of a tech scene in newcastle
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Kopsi
Your research looks really interesting too
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[jgmac1106]
Kopsi. Start with the IndieWeb /principles pages in terms of a security lens
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[jgmac1106]
For example the principle of plurality negates much of the question, "What security risks are there using IndieWeb?"
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[jgmac1106]
Answer to that is almost limitless. In my mind what makes it secure is focus on owning your data. My security is my responsibility not a corporation
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[jgmac1106]
Of course that answer laden with privilege. Privacy and security like many things in life shouldn't be limited to dominate narratives and wealth
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TheCondor
hello
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TheCondor
Happy to discover this community, I have a few questions about IndieWeb
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TheCondor
Do you think it's fair if a tech company acquires an indie software and avoid to announce it to the users for the sake of keep using the "indie" label?
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[KevinMarks]
I'm not sure how that would work - a lot of the indieweb software is either open protocols or open source code
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[jgmac1106]
yeah if the customer signed a ToS that allowed the content to be sold to a third party, is it fair.
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[jgmac1106]
Is it ethical? right? different questions
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TheCondor
In this case it's not open source or open protocols, an indie dev decided to sell its software to the tech company X backed SV money. The tech company X continues to tell to everyone "we are indie developers" and raising money on Patreon or Paypal suggesting their customers and people on the web they are helping indie developers to pay the server costs.
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TheCondor
I'm sure it's not ethical, I wanted to know if IndieWeb community already heard about this kind of case
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[KevinMarks]
so that may not qualify as indieweb, as opposed to the broader sense of indie (eg indie games)
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TheCondor
That's what I thought
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TheCondor
That's what I thought
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[snarfed]
interesting question, but not really indieweb specific
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[tantek]
thread started in #microformats, appropriately encouraged here by sknebel: https://chat.indieweb.org/microformats/2020-03-09#t1583771760980900
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Loqi
[[tantek]] great, that's a win for the indieweb then. and good proof of using the "post on your own site, syndicate to a group blog" strategy
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[tantek]
in short, we should document the explicit phenomenon / examples of posting on your own blog first, then syndicating to a group blog with a rel=canonical link back to your original, as a way of helping empower individuals to assert their rights as creators
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[tantek]
and if we can come up with a good name for this specific example of POSSE, it would help too
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[jgmac1106]
we do that in clmooc and connected learning space all the time but without rel= canonical
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[tantek]
Y U NO REL CANONICAL?
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[jgmac1106]
will encourage it, bc too many people draft on Google Docs like for https://hybridpedagogy.org/write/
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[jgmac1106]
I think in the academic space it might go to the group site first and then back to your site, like you noted with tech pubs
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[jgmac1106]
rel=canonical important in the open annotation world as that is how hypothes.is keeps all annotations together
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[tantek]
Google Docs is not an indieweb site
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[jgmac1106]
I know, regretfully worked into workflow
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[jgmac1106]
hoping work around annotating and fragments may help...doubt it
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[jgmac1106]
I kinda did it today but the group site is also mine so only half counts: https://edu106.jgregorymcverry.com/2020/notes-on-approaching-our-next-module-in-edu106-a-tech
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Loqi
[Dr. McVerry] Notes on Approaching our Next Module in #edu106 a Tech fluency class @scsu a study in digital #literacies
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[jgmac1106]
though this is getting devy....but I was encouraged to use Dublin Core instead of rel="canonical" (since I have it by default)....first time I heard a reference to use in wild
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gRegorLove
[jgmac1106], I don't see rel-canonical in the HTML there, though it is in the schema.org description
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gRegorLove
Maybe known is removing the rel incorrectly
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[jeremycherfas]
Odd. I had one go in response to a similar thread today but gave up as the person saw no reason to continue. https://twitter.com/radiomorillo/status/1236708694928297986
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@radiomorillo
Content Pro-Tip: If you’ve written an article or blog post under your byline for a publication or a blog that’s not yours, save a PDF version of your article. Sites go down, links break, or they disappear. You want to preserve that work for the future! I just did this today.
(twitter.com/_/status/1236708694928297986)
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[tantek]
lol [jgmac1106] next time you're encouraged to use Dublin Core, please ask them *why*, *who* consumes it?, *how* do they process the information?, *what* do they do with it?, *where* do they display the results?
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[tantek]
if they can't answer those questions, then say no, you're not going to add Dublin Core because it's pseudo(info)science
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[jeremycherfas]
[tantek] Do you know whether it is in fact the case that Google penalizes a site if it contains a syndicated copy of content from a different site?
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[tantek]
AFAIK there is no "penalization" just no effect
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[tantek]
the results could be clustered along with the original I would guess
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[jeremycherfas]
Because bad effect on SEO was the reason some gave me for no PESOS back to his own site.
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gRegorLove
I was taking a look at Hypothesis documentation, they claim DC is preferable because of its URL independence, but looks complicated and easy to mess up https://web.hypothes.is/help/how-hypothesis-interacts-with-document-metadata/##Dublin+Core+metadata
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gRegorLove
If it has rel-canonical, Google should not penalize. I'm certain I've seen that as official Google recommendation
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gRegorLove
Hypothesis is also only one use-case. rel-canonical is much more widely supported
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[jeremycherfas]
Oh excellent. Gregorlove++
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Loqi
Gregorlove has 17 karma in this channel over the last year (71 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106]
a very specific use case with some mismatching of Known sites and hypothes.is: https://twitter.com/judell/status/1230564237157662723
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@judell
@jgmac1106 It's hard to reconstruct what happened here. One thing I've seen: a site uses rel="canonical" href="[RSS_feed]" on every page, making all pages aliases of one another. Unless you need rel="canonical" for SEO I'd leave it out and rely on DC:identifier.
(twitter.com/_/status/1230564237157662723)
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[jgmac1106]
it only works because Known has all the metadata types, JSON-LD, mf2, and DC...wasn't recommending adding DC but using that indtead of rel="canonical" because I had it
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[tantek]
what is original post link
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Loqi
An original post link is a hyperlink from a POSSE copy to its original indieweb post https://indieweb.org/original_post_link
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[tantek]
gRegorLove ^^^ good docs there on use of rel=canonical for the reasons mentioned in #microformats
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gRegorLove
That's an odd tweet, [jgmac1106]. malformed rel-canonical points to a need to fix it, not drop it and replace with DC, imo
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gRegorLove
This is probably dev, sorry
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[tantek]
yes on both counts 🙂
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@brentsimmons
To describe an RSS reader to someone who doesn’t know what it is, it might be time to say it’s “like podcasts, but for reading.”
(twitter.com/_/status/1236770203658104833)
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[chrisaldrich]
Has anyone in the IndieWeb community got examples of photo attribution sending/receiving/showing webmentions their own websites? For additional context, see: https://boffosocko.com/2020/03/09/idea-a-script-to-find-flickr-photos-being-used-online-matt-maldre/
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Loqi
[Chris Aldrich] Clicking through to the photo, there is no mention of this image appearing on this important announcement. Perhaps the author privately contact the photographer about using his image. Since Ken Doctor is so incredible with his media experience (i’m...
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vika_nezrimaya
hey IndieWeb I finished some cool features for Kittybox Companion
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vika_nezrimaya
I can now create custom attachments via intents :3 basically opening a road to integrating Kittybox with other apps in the future
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vika_nezrimaya
which app do you want to see? Maybe a food poster a la Teacup? A pushup counter? Everything describable as MF2 goes! :3 just tell me how to describe it
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vika_nezrimaya
Please note that the intent always opens Kittybox Companion's interface to confirm that you want to post the content and maybe add some extra stuff
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vika_nezrimaya
this also means that you can implement such add-on apps yourself, as the only thing needed is an intent extra named ru.fireburn.kittybox.intent.EXTRA_MF2_JSON
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vika_nezrimaya
it should contain an MF2-JSON blob that will be used to form an h-entry
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[KevinMarks]
Svgshare.com supports receiving webmention on the svg and png urls (it uses Link headers to indicate the endpoint)
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[chrisaldrich]
Good example [KevinMarks], thanks!
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[chrisaldrich]
Are there any off hand that you can point to as specific examples?
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[KevinMarks]
I did test it but can't think of which one now
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