#indieweb 2020-03-11

2020-03-11 UTC
mauz555, KartikPrabhu, KempfCreative, [yo], [Michael_Beckwit, vircuser, opal, nickodd, ketudb, en3r0, wolftune, gRegorLove, Ramzy, [tantek], cweiske and dmitry joined the channel; vircuser left the channel
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dmitry hi. I've read some articles on your website and have a quick question: what is it all about? :D is it a movement, ideology or a service? My best guess is that IndieWeb is a movement, but I'm still not sure, so I've came to ask
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dmitry I like a lot of things from "why" page, so if it's a movement, I'll be glad to learn more about it
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cweiske it's a movement
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dmitry so, it's a number of principles and a community of people, who shares it? awesome!
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cweiske I'd not say principles, but more technical ideas, but you got the gist
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dmitry I wanted to find something like this for awhile now. It seems like nobody want to have personal website anymore and be in control of their data and everything. Even my friends from IT usually just don't care about it
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Ruxton there's technical specifications
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dmitry how widely they're supported? and is there any alternative standards or is it sort of a default standard?
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cweiske it's many little pieces
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cweiske microformats to mark up your blog posts so others can extract content and comments from it
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cweiske feeds for easy consumption (rss, atom or h-feed)
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cweiske indieauth for distributed login
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cweiske micropub as an api to use generic tools to publish to any enabled homepage/website
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cweiske ....
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dmitry great
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dmitry so, as long as there is some existing service, like RSS, IndieWeb tries to use it. And if there is none, develops it's own?
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dmitry sorry, not service*
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dmitry standard*
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cweiske yes and no. we had rss and atom, but the indieweb people invented h-feed
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cweiske we had openid, but the indieweb people invented indieauth
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cweiske all because the idea was to have something simpler
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cweiske (which I do not share in every case)
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Ruxton cweiske: openid = authentication, indieauth = authorization, similar but different.
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cweiske no. indieauth is authentication.
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cweiske rel=me is authorization
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Ruxton "IndieAuth is an identity layer on top of OAuth 2.0" -- that makes it authz
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Ruxton https://indieauth.spec.indieweb.org/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] IndieAuth
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cweiske I still disagree that openid and indieauth serve different goals
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cweiske with both you authenticate yourself with your domain at some other webapp
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Ruxton and wth indieauth you can also provide scope as to what to authorize
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Ruxton like oauth
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Ruxton and unlike openid
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Ruxton oauth is used for authentication lots too
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Ruxton but it's really authorization
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[jgmac1106] also dmitry see /principles and /code-of-conduct
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[jeremycherfas] Take it to #indieweb-dev people.
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[jeremycherfas] But cweiske++ for explaining clearly
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sknebel ++ needs to be start of line
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[jeremycherfas] Or end of message?
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[jeremycherfas] But cweiske++
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Loqi cweiske has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (12 in all channels)
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[g33kcentric] the airbnb style guide prohibits ++ 😄
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cweiske re CoC: https://lunduke.com/posts/2020-03-9-b/ if only someone had warned us that CoC would be used for censoring
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[jgmac1106] cweiske can you point to a time when our CoC was used for censorship? I can't think of one
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cweiske it's not the question if that has happened; it's the possibility that this can happen. my thoughts from 2 years ago: http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/code-of-conduct.htm
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cweiske i feel fully confirmed.
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[jgmac1106] Why because another organization chose to enforce their CoC?
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cweiske they "enforced" it to get rid of his voice
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[jgmac1106] I am not sure having expectations for decent human behavior equals censorship
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cweiske 1. hey, I do not like this guy's ideas
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[jgmac1106] I don't know the history so I will not comment but I am glad IndieWeb community has a CoC
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cweiske 2. let's say he violated the CoC
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cweiske 3. all happy
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[jgmac1106] again with 2, I have no idea if the person violated the CoC of that organization, but do you have any examples of our CoC being used to censor voices?
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[jgmac1106] and our CoC governs this space, and other online, as well as our f2f meetings like Nuremberg, to me that is a good thing, but will respect your right to disagree
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cweiske it's not the question if that has happened; it's the possibility that this can happen.
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cweiske and CoCs make that very easy
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[jgmac1106] If you think the CoC can be improved to protect against a so called yet not to be seen possibility of censorship feel free to revise
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[jgmac1106] as they should, enforcing community norms in distrbuted spaces should have low barriers for participants. feature not bug
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cweiske enforcing community norms = banning people
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cweiske so you say that banning people should be easy
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[jgmac1106] Enforcing community norms is a basic role of human society. I am saying efforts should be made to create inclusive spaces where all people feel welcome
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[jgmac1106] Rather than striving for a policy of mirrortocracy, the data is there. Open source is one of the whitest and malest spaces in tech.
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[jgmac1106] Something went wrong, I have no problem working to makibg the marginalized feel welcome rather than cater to white fragility and calls of censorship
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cweiske I knew it would be pointless.
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[jgmac1106] I also can't recall of our CoC being used to remove anyone. Policy of be nice, say sorry when someone feels wronged seems to work
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[jgmac1106] I don't think it is pointless. Good for community to see these discussions play out
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[jgmac1106] Use data. A: Has our CoC censored anyone? B: Is Open Source a diverse space?
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[g33kcentric] As someone who's very existence is questioned by a lot of the population, CoCs go along way to helping me decide whether or not to even show up to an event/stay part of a community
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cweiske A is not a valid point, because that something has not happened in the past does not mean that it will continue so in future
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[jgmac1106] [g33kcentric] ++
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Loqi [g33kcentric] has 1 karma over the last year
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[g33kcentric] nooo its += ! 😄
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[jgmac1106] Then feel free to revise the CoC if you think possible vapor problems with 0 evidence of ever happening could arise
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cweiske with the initial link, I gave an example that this can happen
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[jgmac1106] [g33kcentric] loqi the friendly bot hands out karma
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[g33kcentric] Yeah, i was just poking fun 🙂
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[jgmac1106] False equivalence, talking our CoC, and again I do not accept your definition of censorship. A member of a community agreed to abide by a CoC. It is a matter or membership not censorship
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[jgmac1106] Be like not paying dues to an organization that requires dues. Don't follow rules don't get access to listserv
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[g33kcentric] And this CoC doesnt even advocate one strike your out, it seems to be more like, apologize, forgive and move on
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[jgmac1106] Is any government org telling Eric S Raymond he can't blog about open source, publish articles, no he is free to
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[jgmac1106] Yeah K foster, we go with if someone feels wronged, it isn't a matter of exploring the right or wrong but having empathy to the other party
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cweiske but the indieweb CoC does not define a clear process, like law does. the "organizers" may throw out anyone at will at any point.
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[jgmac1106] And it has happened when?
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cweiske ↺
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[jgmac1106] And tech conferences have a history of being soo inclusive to underrepresented margainalized communities?
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[jgmac1106] If laws were sufficient to protect against rape culture than no sexual harassment, rape, or gender discrimination would exist
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[jgmac1106] The idea that CoCs is new is novel in itself? Leave it to tech to think the reinvent everything. In every grade I taught we hung community expectations
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[jgmac1106] [g33kcentric] i think be kind, apologize is so effective because it also works so well in preschool
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[jgmac1106] Well got to work. Our campus closed for COVID-19 but I didn't check email before i left
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[jgmac1106] Thanks for good convo [cweiske] and [g33kcentric]
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[g33kcentric] have fun and stay safe!
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[jgmac1106] http://www.mozillafestival.org/
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jacky oy
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jacky I didn't expect that conversation to be one that _had_ to be had
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jacky as someone who's had to enforce a CoC once, it rarely gets there and when people do push it, they usually never come in with good intents
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[KevinMarks] @cwieske your example here:
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[KevinMarks] “IndieWebCamps have hacking days where people code together. Now when I point out some stupid bug in someone else's code, this might embarrass the person who wrote it.
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[KevinMarks] This already covers the Code of Conduct's definition of "disrespectfully", and bam, I'm kicked from the conference”
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[KevinMarks] depends on how you do that thing - if you say "here's your problem" no-one will object; if you say "you are stupid and here's the bug" they will. Saying "you have a stupid bug" that could be a little too close to calling them stupid.
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[KevinMarks] that's a case for the lucky 10,000 rule I think
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jacky tbh, I'm going to draft my future comments in blog form - this'll make it search friendly (chats are too!) and more referential
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[jgmac1106] jacky++
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Loqi jacky has 17 karma in this channel over the last year (72 in all channels)
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[snarfed] happy birthday tantek!!! 🎂 🎉
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[tantek] thanks [snarfed] !
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[tantek] happy to see the open CoC discussion, however, may I suggest cweiske, [jgmac1106] that it is more appropriate for the #indieweb-meta channel?
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[tantek] back to dmitry's question: "is it a movement, ideology or a service". Yes, yes, yes, and more.
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[tantek] IndieWeb is definitely a movement, growing, in-person across the world.
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[tantek] IndieWeb is a loose ideology, best represented by /principles and /why
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[tantek] There is no "one" IndieWeb service, there are many IndieWeb services, deliberately so, per our principle of /plurality
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[tantek] Similarly there is no "one" IndieWeb project. There are many projects, and they are interoperable
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[Joe_Crawford] IndieWeb feels like a kind of human right. I suspect that if we looked at the UN declaration of human rights we’d see rights that are consistent with the self-determination goals of IndieWeb.
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[tantek] [Joe_Crawford] there's a lot of overlap likely yes. Similar with Mozilla manifesto.
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[tantek] One big difference is the IndieWeb emphasis on community
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[tantek] Also feeling more meta 🙂
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[KevinMarks] This is quite good https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-history-of-the-url/
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Loqi [indienews] New post: https://shkspr.mobi/blog/2020/03/one-avatar-to-rule-them-all/ (from https://www.jvt.me/mf2/2020/03/8v7tx/)
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GWG I keep meaning to do that myself
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GWG Permanent redirect URL for my avatar
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vilhalmer I can never help but feel that webfinger would have better adoption with a better name
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rrix cyberfinger, efinger
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[KevinMarks] it was always overkill for what it did compared to having an h-card though
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[KevinMarks] what is webfist?
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Loqi Webfist is the software used to run a distributed fallback network to enable webfinger on email address from providers that do not yet support webfinger https://indieweb.org/Webfist
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vilhalmer rrix: I was leaning toward dropping the "finger" part ;)
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vilhalmer h-cards are nicer, though having something that doesn't need to parse html would be good
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rrix haha
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rrix webfist is a good name for a computer music artist
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[KevinMarks] you know what webfinger has to parse?
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vilhalmer I did some gross stuff server-side to statically implement just enough webfinger for mastodon
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vilhalmer but this is getting dangerously #dev-y
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[KevinMarks] true. I wonder if some of https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/AccountDiscovery shoudl move to our wiki
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[KevinMarks] for the true YAGNI you can read https://www.w3.org/community/ostatus/wiki/Workflow
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vilhalmer I think I'm developing a headache
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[Michael_Beckwit is that a new js library? sorry, really bad joke
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vilhalmer ygni would be a good name for a "missing batteries" type library
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jacky like a utils lib?
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[tantek] vilhalmer: note to self, avoid naming things after unix tools, because they often sound like a tool
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vilhalmer jacky: yeah
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vilhalmer [tantek]: that and often impossible to google :D