#indieweb 2020-06-27

2020-06-27 UTC
KartikPrabhu, [chrisaldrich], [jgmac1106], wolftune, gRegorLove_ and [schmarty] joined the channel
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[chrisaldrich] What is manifesto?
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Loqi A manifesto is "a published verbal declaration of the intentions, motives, or views of the issuer, be it an individual, group, political party or government" according to Wikipedia[1] - in summary there is no IndieWeb(Camp) manifesto https://indieweb.org/manifesto
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jmac And here's my five-minute talk about IndieWeb & Webmention: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2VLrZ9nh2E
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jacky wait I'm late to the call
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jacky >_<
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jmac jacky: if you mean the iwc west pre-party zoom, it's still in full swing
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jacky hmm I can't join for some reason
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jacky wait nvm
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Guest11032 Hello World
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[chrisaldrich] snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 30 karma in this channel over the last year (86 in all channels)
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jacky where's that etherpad link?
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[chrisaldrich] Who is someone?
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[chrisaldrich] jacky, here it is: https://etherpad.indieweb.org/2020-West-Sessions
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jacky [chrisaldrich]: thanks!
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joseph_dickson web window wasn't working for me so I logged on via IRC
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jacky is it me or is that etherpad's text soooo tiny :(
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jacky I have to hit the zoom to 200%
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joseph_dickson @jacky 12px type on a 13" laptop?
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jacky I'm on a 4k screen (but scaled to 2k)
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petermolnar !meme timezones
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petermolnar also, good morning
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Loqi [indienews] New post: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1276635949254889472.html (from https://boffosocko.com/2020/06/26/threadreaderapp-announces-support-for-micropub/)
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[chrisaldrich] rebelle++ for already planning sessions at https://etherpad.indieweb.org/2020-West-Sessions
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Loqi rebelle has 2 karma over the last year
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[chrisaldrich] petermolnar++ for early session planning as well
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Loqi petermolnar has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (24 in all channels)
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[schmarty] good morning, indieweb!
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jacky o/
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jacky stretches
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chrisaldrich Scariest part of Camp as an organizer is over: I'm up, awake, and not too late! Good morning Campers.
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[grantcodes] What is Auralite
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Auralite" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Auralite is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[grantcodes] Hmm apparently will be some sort of social network with webmention support https://auralite.io/
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jacky sheesh it's not cheap
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[jgmac1106] and built by an 18 year old PHP wiz? https://miguelpiedrafita.com/
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[tantek] What is 👁👁
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "👁👁" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "👁👁 is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] Did Loqi just silence of the lips?
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joseph_dickson Good morning everyone
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jacky hey there joseph_dickson!
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maxwelljoslyn Howdy everyone, looking forward to a fun weekend :^)
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maxwelljoslyn does the Camp have its zoom room(s) up? @GWG @chrisaldrich
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jacky maxwelljoslyn: yeah! check https://events.indieweb.org/2020/06/indiewebcamp-west-2020-ZB8zoAAu6sdN
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Loqi LIVE NOW: IndieWebCamp West 2020
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maxwelljoslyn jacky: thanks *face palm* I was looking at last night's pre party page
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aaronpk zoom link is on https://indieweb.org/2020/West/Schedule
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maxwelljoslyn ty
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[grantcodes] High number of IWC t-shirts!
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[David_Bryant] I need to replace my IWC t-shirt, alas. (My current one met with an unfortunate accident...)
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Kai hi
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aaronpk waves
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Kai waves back
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joseph_dickson Code of Conduct https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct
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GWG [David_Bryant]: Is it a mask now?
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[David_Bryant] ↩️ Mask?
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GWG [David_Bryant]: The IWC t-shirt that had an accident.
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[David_Bryant] ↩️ That's a _great_ idea! I will work on that...
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[David_Bryant] ↩️ That's a _great_ idea! I'll have to work on that.
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gRegorLove Hello IWC West!
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Kongaloosh_ :)
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Kai https://www.cassie.codes/
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[chrisaldrich] What is SVG?
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Loqi SVG is Scalable Vector Graphics, a standard way to display vector images that integrates well into HTML and is implemented in all modern browsers https://indieweb.org/SVG
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gRegorLove what is greensock?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "greensock" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "greensock is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[chrisaldrich] What is eleventy?
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Loqi Eleventy is a JavaScript based static site generator that allows the user to select their own preferred template engine and theme, which in practice can and does enable use of microformats2 https://indieweb.org/Eleventy
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[schmarty] dang this is a good website
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jacky very
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[schmarty] love the avatar that follows the mouse
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jacky and it's accessible?!
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[grantcodes] fun++
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Loqi fun has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (2 in all channels)
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[schmarty] a character! in the web page! without flash or java applets or activeX or the unity runtime or...
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[chrisaldrich] Any questions for Cassie?
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[tantek] Q: What finally made you start on this design (you said you were gathering thoughts in folders for a while), and how did you know when it was "done" enough to "ship"?
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maxwelljoslyn just abig thank you for sharing a tutorial about your logo! thanks Cssie
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jacky Q: What's one of the things you feel your site's missing?
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[tantek] aww jacky can we flip that into a positive frame? 😉
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jacky thinks
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jacky Q: If you had two days to hack on your site and all of the IndieWeb knowledge in the world, what's something you think you'd add?
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[schmarty] cassie.codes++
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Loqi cassie.codes has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] cassie.codes++
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Loqi cassie.codes has 2 karma over the last year
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[David_Bryant] Q: I've discovered Eleventy myself and really like it. If you have Eleventy tips and tricks (or a list of good resources) it'd be great to have them.
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jacky ooh SVG workshops :)
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[tantek] A: (to jacky's two days question) Webmentions!
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[David_Bryant] (PS: I've been working on Webmentions on my site and have it partially working...)
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[Benjamin_Turne] cassie.codes++
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Loqi cassie.codes has 3 karma over the last year
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joseph_dickson Cassie's website is a work of art.
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[tantek] so inspiring!
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Anthony1 Cassie.codes, I appreciated the comment about the internet increasingly looking like a corporation is generating pages!
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[schmarty] [David_Bryant] cassie mentioned this course on eleventy on twitter: https://twitter.com/hankchizljaw/status/1276154335999807495
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@hankchizljaw @cassiecodes *cough* you can get the course Cassie mentions here: https://piccalil.li/course/learn-eleventy-from-scratch/ (twitter.com/_/status/1276154335999807495)
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[tantek] A: Had multiple folders, one with "personal site design, please get on with it", and had an external time limit that encouraged launching
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[David_Bryant] Thanks!
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[tantek] A: Andy Bell just released an 11ty for beginners course
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gRegorLove ^ https://piccalil.li/course/learn-eleventy-from-scratch/
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Loqi In this Eleventy course, we go from a completely empty directory to a full-blown marketing site for a design agency, and along the way, we dive really deep into Eleventy and front-end development best practices.Over the course of 31 written lessons, ...
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jacky what is eleventy
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Loqi Eleventy is a JavaScript based static site generator that allows the user to select their own preferred template engine and theme, which in practice can and does enable use of microformats2 https://indieweb.org/Eleventy
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jacky eleventy << https://piccalil.li/course/learn-eleventy-from-scratch/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://piccalil.li/course/learn-eleventy-from-scratch/" to the "See Also" section of /Eleventy https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=70620&oldid=70546
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[tantek] what is 11ty
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Loqi Eleventy is a JavaScript based static site generator that allows the user to select their own preferred template engine and theme, which in practice can and does enable use of microformats2 https://indieweb.org/11ty
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[Ana_Rodrigues] cassie.codes++
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Loqi cassie.codes has 4 karma over the last year
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joseph_dickson lol sorry, I was clapping way too close to the mic
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[tantek] What's Cassie's Twitter?
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[schmarty] cassie shares her SVG and greensock animation work at https://codepen.io/cassie-codes/
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[schmarty] tantek: twitter.com/cassiecodes
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ben_thatmustbeme pops in to watch
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[tantek] Thanks @schmary
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[tantek] ugh why auto-complete Slack you do that
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[tantek] [schmarty] thank you 🙂
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[schmarty] lol somebody phonebook squatting my chat-name??
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[schmarty] snarfed++ presenting "State of the a few things I can see" 👏👏
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Loqi snarfed has 31 karma in this channel over the last year (86 in all channels)
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[chrisaldrich] https://opencollective.com/indieweb
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm assuming these will all be up on youtube, i missed cassie's talk
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patdryburgh Does anyone know the tool Cassie used to measure the stats she showed in their presentation (where each circle showed 100%)?
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[schmarty] ben_thatmustbeme: we'll link them on the event page: https://indieweb.org/2020/West
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[chrisaldrich] I think that looked like lighthouse patdryburgh
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petermolnar patdryburgh: I believe it's https://developers.google.com/web/tools/lighthouse/
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[chrisaldrich] what is lighthouse?
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Loqi Lighthouse is a upcoming product run by Jacky Alciné that provides a hosted low-touch Webmention service https://indieweb.org/Lighthouse
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[schmarty] jacky++ lol good wiki grabbing 😄
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Loqi jacky has 21 karma in this channel over the last year (98 in all channels)
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petermolnar though trusting those numbers is another topic: https://www.matuzo.at/blog/building-the-most-inaccessible-site-possible-with-a-perfect-lighthouse-score/
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[chrisaldrich] Ha! There's apparently another lighthouse...
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petermolnar Lighthouse << https://www.matuzo.at/blog/building-the-most-inaccessible-site-possible-with-a-perfect-lighthouse-score/
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joseph_dickson RE: Ryan Barett: I don't think I have a copy of my first website anywhere. wow.
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.matuzo.at/blog/building-the-most-inaccessible-site-possible-with-a-perfect-lighthouse-score/" to a new "See Also" section of /Lighthouse https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=70621&oldid=70543
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petermolnar shoot
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petermolnar I'll correct that
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petermolnar what is Google Lighthouse?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Google Lighthouse" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Google Lighthouse is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] oh that diagram. Google Buzz, Brightkite, identi.ca, Status.net
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petermolnar Google Lighthouse is a gamified web quality testing tool, where quality is according to Google's ideas.
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Loqi ok
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petermolnar Google Lighthouse << https://www.matuzo.at/blog/building-the-most-inaccessible-site-possible-with-a-perfect-lighthouse-score/
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[schmarty] wowow bridgy first shipped in 2012 for wordpress!
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.matuzo.at/blog/building-the-most-inaccessible-site-possible-with-a-perfect-lighthouse-score/" to a brand new "See Also" section of /Google_Lighthouse https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=70625&oldid=70624
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ben_thatmustbeme can tell tantek wrote it, nost just because his name but how it was dated 2010-279
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gRegorLove haha
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[tantek] OrdinalDates++
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Loqi OrdinalDates has 1 karma over the last year
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[chrisaldrich] The email for code of conduct violations is west@indieweb.org. It's also on the main camp page at /2020/West on the wiki.
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[tantek] or any questions / concerns about code of conduct, if you're not sure if it's a violation or not.
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GWG When did Reddit get in there? I thought that was still in beta?
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[chrisaldrich] It's been a couple of months I think for Reddit.
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[chrisaldrich] What is bridgy?
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Loqi Bridgy is an open source project and proxy that implements backfeed and POSSE as a service https://indieweb.org/bridgy
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GWG Clearly I wasn't paying enough attention
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ben_thatmustbeme wow, its got a bunch more since i last used it
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Evert[m] I can't seem to find the zoom link =(
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petermolnar https://indieweb.org/2020/West/Schedule -> "Optionally, join the Zoom Meeting"
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[chrisaldrich] Or direct: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86547746287?pwd=akN6WDFlOExUakJCcUpnSlNvc1liQT09
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joseph_dickson Q: with Brid.gy / Webmention. When someone deletes their tweet or whatever does it also remove from websites where it was previously imported?
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[schmarty] those broken lines 😭
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[chrisaldrich] What is site deaths?
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Loqi Site deaths are when sites go offline, taking content and permalinks with them, and breaking the web accordingly https://indieweb.org/site-deaths
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petermolnar what is delete?
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Loqi A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indieweb.org/delete
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petermolnar ^^^ joseph_dickson ideally that's how deleted posts should be handled
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cassiecodes wow this chat is clever!
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gRegorLove what is Loqi?
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petermolnar if so, meaning the deleted content returns a HTTP 410, sending a webmention should delete the entry on the other end
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot/digital therapist present in the IndieWeb discussion channels https://indieweb.org/Loqi
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GWG cassiecodes: I'm hoping Loqi develops sentience and starts building Indieweb tools for me.
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[chrisaldrich] cassiecodes++ for an awesome talk (and website)!
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Loqi cassiecodes has 1 karma over the last year
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cassiecodes thank you! It's so fun to have your own little corner of the web!
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gRegorLove gives Loqi the Webmention spec and 11ty documentation
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Loqi steps on the Webmention spec and 11ty documentation
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gRegorLove bad bot
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GWG Q: What other ones have people proposed?
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[schmarty] cassiecodes++ thanks for demoing your amazing site and for making so many resources available to help other folks!!
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Loqi cassiecodes has 2 karma over the last year
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[chrisaldrich] What is Bridgy Fed?
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Loqi Bridgy Fed connects IndieWeb sites with federated social networks like Mastodon and HubZilla https://indieweb.org/Bridgy_Fed
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joseph_dickson @petermolnar thanks!
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[schmarty] huffduff-video++
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Loqi huffduff-video has 1 karma over the last year
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[schmarty] what is huffduffer?
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[chrisaldrich] What is huffduffer?
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Loqi Huffduffer, built by Jeremy Keith is a tool for creating podcasts out of audio files from around the web https://indieweb.org/Huffduffer
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Loqi Huffduffer, built by Jeremy Keith is a tool for creating podcasts out of audio files from around the web https://indieweb.org/Huffduffer
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[schmarty] beat me to it chrisaldrich++
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 14 karma in this channel over the last year (37 in all channels)
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maxwelljoslyn Q for Ryan: thanks for making all the bridgy backend information available. is the cod eyou've used to generate your presentation charts also available?
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petermolnar [tantek]: facepile of a stack of 200k images, hmmm?
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[chrisaldrich] Now we know why tantek doesn't display webmentions yet...
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[tantek] Yes I have a bunch of bleeding edge work to do on moderating webmentions
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[schmarty] snarfed++ 👏👏👏
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[tantek] snarfed++ thank you for the update!
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Loqi snarfed has 32 karma in this channel over the last year (87 in all channels)
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GWG Q: What is the future of Bridgy? What would you like to do?
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maxwelljoslyn Thanks! Yep I meant the graphs IN the presentation so code for that is exactly what i was hoping for :^) snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 33 karma in this channel over the last year (88 in all channels)
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[schmarty] maxwelljoslyn: looks like those docs are here in the bridgy source: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy#stats
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Loqi [snarfed] bridgy: 📣 Connects your web site to social media. Likes, retweets, mentions, cross-posting, and more...
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maxwelljoslyn thanks marty and GWG !
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joseph_dickson clap clap clap
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gRegorLove jacky's keynote, jacky.wtf
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gRegorLove Opening a Restaurant to Share Our Cooking
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[tantek] *so good*
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[chrisaldrich] and riffing on soniesedge Tweet in Ryans talk...
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gRegorLove This talk is a bit of a continuation of his talk from /2019
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[jgmac1106] "I feel like apro..but sometimes I am not" why you should try hard to avoid the language of easy and ahrd
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[schmarty] is furiously nodding along to jacky's talk
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Kongaloosh_ right?
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[schmarty] "you use different language for talking to a plumber versus a person in the house that uses the plumbing"
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petermolnar I would love to know how things work. Anything. Sometimes though I simply don't have the capacity. In other cases it can be insanely hard to get started, or to find decent enough literature. So from one point, I agree, it should be easy to get started, but I'll never be able to agree to the "they don't need to know" approach. See https://www.rarst.net/wordpress/technical-responsibility/
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GWG I love rarst...he's the DateTime maintainer
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rebelle is this the conference chat? :D
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[schmarty] petermolnar: i think for any given topic in life there will be lines past which you "don't need to know" how something works
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[schmarty] rebelle: yes! welcome!
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GWG rebelle: It's our regular chat, but today, it's the conference chat
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petermolnar rebelle: yes
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gRegorLove Welcome rebelle o/
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[tantek] This is such a great talk, in content and I'm digging that typeface too
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rebelle Hi everyone!! It's Ki :D thank you!
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Kongaloosh_ :o this talk is full of beautiful metaphors
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petermolnar [schmarty]: I know, and for all things that are a "must" for your everyday life, the ones that are not a hobby, or fun (for me, it's maintaining a car - I just want it to work), I will accept it. But... do we want personal sites to fall into this category?
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[hibs] Q: Do you think the division in information presentation should be divided along development experience level? And/or along general level of technological proficiency? Etc?
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petermolnar no, that's not where I'm aiming at; it's not about the can, it's about the want
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petermolnar can know vs want to know
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GWG Kongaloosh_: Agreed.
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rebelle I just spent the morning talking about the exact same thing with the NoCode movement guys
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[snarfed] jmac, [jgmac1106], aaronpk and others have definitely thought through whether/how to do a deeper indieweb foundation, non-profit, etc before!
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[snarfed] session from 2018 IWS: https://indieweb.org/2018/nonprofit . could be time to do another!
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[schmarty] petermolnar: i resonate with jacky's plumbing metaphor. there's wanting to know, there's can know, but when there are things that you *must* know in order to participate, that's a barrier
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[tantek] jacky++ great job, superb summary presentation
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Loqi jacky has 22 karma in this channel over the last year (100 in all channels)
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[schmarty] we don't require someone to understand fluid dynamics and metallurgy before they can use a kitchen sink
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[tantek] FYI an update to organizers: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Organizers&type=revision&diff=70637&oldid=70520
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[hibs] jacky++
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Loqi jacky has 23 karma in this channel over the last year (101 in all channels)
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[Benjamin_Turne] jacky++
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Loqi jacky has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (102 in all channels)
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[schmarty] jacky++ great community summary and call to action. you've got my brain buzzing!
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[hibs] Btw Jacky I’d be happy to help you with any information architecture questions!
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joseph_dickson Comment: IndieWeb looks difficult because users expect the no bake cheesecake to taste like the real thing. :D
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[jgmac1106] jgmac1106 also loves IndieWeb because there is no formal org...
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jacky 🙇🏿🙇🏿🙇🏿🙇🏿
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jacky thank you
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[jgmac1106] doing open source where places have board, bosses, and committees....I dunno never seen it worl
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[jgmac1106] jacky++
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Loqi jacky has 25 karma in this channel over the last year (103 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] work*
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cassiecodes Heading off for dinner but thankyou for having me and I'll hopefully be back tomorrow!
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[schmarty] cassiecodes: enjoy and again thanks so much!!
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Kongaloosh_ Really pleased to see such forward-looking organization.
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[jgmac1106] only possible because of forward looking people like you kongaloosh
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aaronpk start here: https://indieweb.org/2020/West/Schedule
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[chrisaldrich] https://etherpad.indieweb.org/Lightning_Intros
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[schmarty] lightning intros etherpad: https://etherpad.indieweb.org/Lightning_Intros
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aaronpk also please don't paste emojis into the etherpad, it will break :)
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[fluffy] [gRegorLove] do you mean to be putting your stuff into the examples section?
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[schmarty] not sure if we should notes here since etherpad is collecting intros/demos
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[schmarty] but fluffy is up now! talking about her blogging platform publ, based on flat files
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[schmarty] [jgmac1106] please mute
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aaronpk i muted him
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[schmarty] ty aaronpk 😄
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Kongaloosh_ ooooh private posts.
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Kongaloosh_ that's rad.
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[schmarty] fluffy discusses private posts and publ feature to let folks log in to see them, including login via indieauth
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Kongaloosh_ cat tax <3
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[chrisaldrich] aaronpk, can you go next to give me some time to pull up some links
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[schmarty] also demos alternate templates for different post types, e.g. commics.
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[schmarty] ugh *comics
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[grantcodes] fiona++
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Loqi fiona has 1 karma over the last year
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aaronpk sure [chrisaldrich]
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[jgmac1106] @schmarty how do I mute..like a hard mute..stfu and stop posting or is their a feature
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[schmarty] fluffy++ directs folks to publ.beezbuzz.biz for more about publ. it's python!
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Loqi fluffy has 10 karma in this channel over the last year (69 in all channels)
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aaronpk [jgmac1106]: the big "mute" button in the bottom menu of zoom
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[tantek] fluffy++
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Loqi fluffy has 11 karma in this channel over the last year (70 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] I am muted in zoom
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gRegorLove up next: aaronpk.com
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[schmarty] jgmac1106 you're good now. aaronpk muted you. we were hearing ppl in your background.
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[jgmac1106] shhh don't tell or I will be in a lot of trouble....have to turn off all voice search when you enter Casa McVerry....
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gRegorLove ... builds a lot of tools geared toward reading / following people outside the silos
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[jgmac1106] all location searches...my partner wants a box where people have to lock their phones outside of the house
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gRegorLove ... also tools for people to get data out of silos, like /ownyourgram
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gRegorLove ... recently wrote an article, How to Leave Facebook
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gRegorLove ... didn't fully delete, but removed all content, extract backup, leaving a stub at the bottom "here's me, go find me other places"
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[schmarty] aaronpk++ concise!
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Loqi aaronpk has 35 karma in this channel over the last year (230 in all channels)
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petermolnar aaronpk: welcome to the club. I did the same for about a year (minimal fb) quite a while ago. Next step is deactivating :)
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gRegorLove up next: Sarah Hibner
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gRegorLove ... http://sarah-hibner.com/
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gRegorLove ... designer and creative directory, interested in media preservation an digital bookmarking
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gRegorLove ... started designing sites in 2001
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gRegorLove ... shows http://outer-outer.space
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Loqi Outer Outer Space Hi I'm Sarah, this is a place for my ideas in the long now. Also on Twitter and Reddit.
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gRegorLove (brb if someone else can continue notes)
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[schmarty] next up paulopinto.org
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[schmarty] ... started creating his site in the 90s w/ tools like frontpage for ham radio content
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[schmarty] ... then added photographs. but then moved to social media when everybody else did
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GWG Paulo is the one who reported the ICAO Airport code bug to me this week, I think. Hi, Paulo.
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[schmarty] ... found indieweb and interested in owning his own content while still interacting with people on social media
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[schmarty] ... experimental site at paulopinto.page for micro.blog
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[schmarty] ... ct1ete.xyz for ham radio
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[schmarty] ... paulopinto.org new indieweb template on wordpress
lahacker joined the channel
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[jgmac1106] yeah I see mJordan is here...my CSS super herp
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[jgmac1106] hero*
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[schmarty] next Joseph Dickson www.linuxbookpro.com
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[schmarty] ... wordpress with indieweb plugins
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[schmarty] ... not on most of the social networks (just twitter) to narrow the "social media funnel"
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[schmarty] ... uses personal website as an archive / destination beyond the noise of twitter
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[schmarty] next up me please note m
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[tantek] up next [schmarty]
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lahacker is there a zoom link somewhere?
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gRegorLove up next: martymcgui.re
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[tantek] https://martymcqui.re/
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joseph_dickson https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86547746287?pwd=akN6WDFlOExUakJCcUpnSlNvc1liQT09
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aaronpk https://indieweb.live <-- if you just want to watch
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[tantek] go for it gRegorLove, my typing has a lag
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gRegorLove ... briefly did a weekly indieweb podcast
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[snarfed] re backfeed and when social network responders don't know their replies will show up on the source web site: https://indieweb.org/backfeed#Storage.2C_legal.2C_data_ownership.2C_UX...
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gRegorLove ... been posting eternal caturday pictures lately via micropub
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[tantek] 😻
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gRegorLove ... shows /Kapowsky to post /Giphy replies on your site
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gRegorLove ... even without signing in, gives you HTML to copy/paste on your site
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gRegorLove up next: petermolnar.net
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[schmarty] gRegorLove it's /gfycat now since /Giphy was purchased by FB 😭
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gRegorLove ... prefers long format posts
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gRegorLove ... shows the bottom of another post, has /webmention and /pingbacks
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gRegorLove ... doesn't show content for reasons
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gRegorLove ... ethical and legal reasons, only links and names
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gRegorLove ... light and dark mode; uses OS defaults
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[schmarty] next up Alex Kearney kongaloosh.com
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[schmarty] ... an academic. posts to her site to track her own stuff and projects.
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[schmarty] ... started about 5 years ago, built from scratch based on bear's old repo
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[schmarty] ... inspired by the idea of digital homes/houses recently
[scottgruber] joined the channel
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[scottgruber] [chrisaldrich] good to be here.
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[schmarty] ... konagloosh.com is for indieweb stuff. alexkearney.com for more professional academic stuff.
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gRegorLove up next: jgmac1106
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[chrisaldrich] Good to see you [scottgruber]! How was the morning?
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[chrisaldrich] Thanks to everyone for including clickable links in the Etherpad!
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gRegorLove ... https://jgregorymcverry.com/
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[schmarty] next up Greg McVerry jgregorymcverry.com
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[scottgruber] Incredibly good.
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[schmarty] (ty gRegor go for it)
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Kongaloosh_ nice.
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gRegorLove ... linking to "My Seeds" (bittorrent) in his h-card
#
gRegorLove ... shows /listen posts
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gRegorLove ... sharing history of rock 'n roll albums
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gRegorLove ... posts a quick note about the music, then expands on his wiki
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gRegorLove up next: Ana
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gRegorLove ... ohhelloana.blog
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GWG Back to you, Chris sounds like a newscaster handoff...
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GWG We're just missing Here's Tom with the Weather
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petermolnar GWG++
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Loqi GWG has 27 karma in this channel over the last year (133 in all channels)
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gRegorLove ... has different visual styles for different post types
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gRegorLove ... has a long todo list but it works!
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joseph_dickson Ana's website is exactly how I want to organize my micropub stuff
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petermolnar nah, pagination is overrated. If MBs of Javascript is fine these days, a few thousand lines of HTML is nothing.
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gRegorLove up next: Brandon
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GWG aaronpk: Timer
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gRegorLove ... brawrdon.com
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gRegorLove ... interested in getting peers and non-technical people involved in indieweb
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gRegorLove ... research paper (on github?)
#
[jgmac1106] petermolnar struggling with pagination...tried to display posts by months...added so much work for me. Added so many possible failure points
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gRegorLove up next: GWG
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[schmarty] next up David Shanske david.shanske.com
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gRegorLove ... https://david.shanske.com
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gRegorLove ... local weather on his site
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joseph_dickson GWG is an accidental developer :)
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gRegorLove ... each post has the weather and general geolocation
#
gRegorLove ... syndicates to twitter and micro.blog
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[jgmac1106] If you keep doing things and people who do those things have a shared name you have that name
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gRegorLove ... date archive, re-creating a post from 2013 based on metadata from his phone when he took the picture
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gRegorLove ... map view shows a map of the archive page
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petermolnar [jgmac1106]: at first, I had by X number of posts. Then I split it to months. They to year or flat, depending on category. Then, out of curiosity, I measered a 'what if I put all of it on one page' - and it was much less, than I thought. Thin entries, summary + more link, and you can put decades of entries up without problems.
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gRegorLove (schmarty, can you go for next couple)
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[schmarty] next up Jordan Brady https://mjordan.codes/
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[tantek] yay welcome back Jordan++
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Loqi Jordan has 1 karma over the last year
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[schmarty] ... site has lots of animation and SVG stuff (and more in progrses)
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[tantek] mjordan++
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Loqi mjordan has 1 karma over the last year
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GWG gRegorLove: The location is from my phone, the timestamp is from EXIF. I used a camera, not phone
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[jgmac1106] mJordan++
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Loqi mJordan has 2 karma over the last year
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anaulin digging all the presenters that are demoing their pets
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[schmarty] ... a few months ago broke deployment and then decided to rebuild the site instead of fixing it
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[schmarty] next up gRegor gRegorlove.com
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[schmarty] ... been blogging since about 2002.
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[schmarty] ... recently added (back) reply contexts to show what he is replying to in posts
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[jgmac1106] taught me CSS subgrid and I have been having so much fun playing with it...you can really do some funky layout with tools people meant for symmetry
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joseph_dickson Love the SVG stickers on the laptop @mjordan
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[schmarty] ... site supports RSVPs and bookmarks. can syndicate replies to twitter.
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[schmarty] up next Manton Reece (manton.org)
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[schmarty] ... founder of micro.blog and hosts his site there
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[schmarty] ... mostly short posts but some longer ones too
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[schmarty] ... with replies from other micro.blog users as well as webmentions from elsewhere
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[schmarty] ... recently been posting short videos. next steps wants to do more short videos and ways to collect them
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gRegorLove up next: Justin
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[schmarty] ... shows /photos page, a nice photo grid. wants to do same for videos
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gRegorLove ... justinmiller.io
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[schmarty] ... justinmiller.io
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gRegorLove ... /Hugo site for longform blogging
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gRegorLove ... been working on a micro post setup
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[jgmac1106] [manton] we need to come up with the micropub HTML5 media remixer.. a bit of CSS Grid, some Z index..and rop in audio, image, video links...mix in a ton of creativity and have fun....we need more video
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gRegorLove ... aggregating responses from twitter
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gRegorLove ... has a link blog, pulling in /Pinboard bookmarks via Python script
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gRegorLove ... and Github stars
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[fluffy] justin you have a weird 5Hz flangy tone thing in the background
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gRegorLove ... occasionally with commentary
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gRegorLove next up: tantek.com
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gRegorLove ... "my name is Tantek, the dot com is silent"
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gRegorLove ... shows some recent RSVPs
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gRegorLove ... photo posts, replies to notes, github issues, articles
#
gRegorLove ... composite stream
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incanus [fluffy]: i have a weird old PC running in the bg that i've been working on today, that's probably it
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gRegorLove ... has a theme switcher, the emoji icons at the top right
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gRegorLove ... works without cookies, passes query string to remember theme selection
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[fluffy] I just saw Fiona’s karma boost, I’ll let her know 🙂
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gRegorLove up next: Beto
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[schmarty] ... blog.taoetc.org
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gRegorLove ... https://blog.taoetc.org/
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joseph_dickson Beto's color theme is nice
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gRegorLove ... /ssg
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gRegorLove ... publishes to Medium, Mastodon, Twitter
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gRegorLove ... shows the "How is it different?" documentation for the /ssg
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gRegorLove ... really focused on wanting the site to survive for decades, no db to maintain, other dependencies, etc.
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gRegorLove up next: Evert
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gRegorLove ... evertpot.com
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gRegorLove ... shows a blog post about HTTP1/2, has interactive sections
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gRegorLove ... shows /webmentions via /webmention.io
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gRegorLove ... shows a map of geolocated posts
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[jgmac1106] Glad you made it Evert...build Notion from your own Domain
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[fluffy] I appreciate Beto’s use of RFC822 email message files for the metadata payload (I do that too)
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gRegorLove up next: David Bryant
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jacky tbh I've been debating that [fluffy]
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GWG [David_Bryant]: Sorry I never fixed the wordpress indieauth top level issue
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Evert[m] [jgmac1106]: thank you for inviting me!
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gRegorLove ... orangemoose.com
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gRegorLove ... restarted in December from scratch on /Eleventy
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gRegorLove ... on https://www.disquisitioner.com/
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[fluffy] [jacky] it works really well and also makes for some very nice external tooling
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[jgmac1106] << womnders if he should join the eleventy bandwagon or just keep sloggin along through slow learning
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gRegorLove ... wants to get webmention, micropub, etc. for "the full indieweb experience"
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[fluffy] yay another cat
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Loqi giggles
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gRegorLove up next: Chaitanya
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gRegorLove ... chaitanya.page
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gRegorLove ... micro.blog site with a custom homepage
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[fluffy] [David_Bryant] what’s your cat’s name?
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[David_Bryant] This is Sofia
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[fluffy] Sofia++ good kitty
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Loqi Sofia has 1 karma over the last year
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gRegorLove cats++
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Loqi cats has 1 karma over the last year
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gRegorLove up next: Scott Gruber, scottgruber.me
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gRegorLove ... been using Craft CMS
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gRegorLove ... using RSS feeds to syndicate to Twitter, micro.blog, and Mastodon
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gRegorLove ... short notes as primary content type
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gRegorLove ... been struggling with webmentions, hoping we can do a session today
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[Ana_Rodrigues] I have to sign off now 😞 But I will catch up later. Have a wonderful time everyone 👋
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[chrisaldrich] [grantcodes] up next
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[David_Bryant] Happy to answer questions about getting started with Eleventy, [jgmac1106]. I like it but realize it might not be ideal for everyone.
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gRegorLove ... Chinese and English in the site. Mainly text with CSS and CSS Grid
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gRegorLove up next: Grant, https://grant.codes
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Loqi Grant Richmond
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gRegorLove ... has been reworking his site so it will be static
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[tantek] [grantcodes]++ that cursor always cracks me up 😂
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Loqi [grantcodes] has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (23 in all channels)
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gRegorLove ... maybe can get it launched over the weekend, or work on micropub tools like Postrchild
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gRegorLove ... or /Together
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gRegorLove up next: Maxwell
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gRegorLove ... maxwelljoslyn.com
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gRegorLove ... one chronological list on the blog, but spends a lot of time expanding/updating pages even if they're not recent
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[David_Bryant] ↩️ No worries. I was never able to figure out some of the AUTH problems I was having on my own via my hosting provider. I know my site + WordPress hybrid combination is not how most people want to use WP.
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gRegorLove ... posts Chinese translations, poems, and video games
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gRegorLove up next: Pat Dryburgh
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joseph_dickson of all the WordPress events I've been to I've never seen such a fantastic exhibit websites so quickly, efficiently. :D
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gRegorLove ... patdryburgh.com
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gRegorLove ... few latest blog posts, RSS feeds syndicates with Feedpress, allows newsletter of RSS feeds
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gRegorLove ... Jekyll site (I think?)
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gRegorLove ... supports indieauth, micropub
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gRegorLove ... Hitchens Jekyll theme good for longform posts, better accessibility, jsonfeed, and title-less posts for microblogging
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gRegorLove ... links to his site source from the about page
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Kongaloosh_ procastacoding :)
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[fluffy] “when I should be doing other things” extremely relatable
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[fluffy] IndieWebCat++
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Loqi IndieWebCat has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (3 in all channels)
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gRegorLove up next: indiewebcat
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[schmarty] ... indiewebcat.com
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ben_thatmustbeme Dora++
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Loqi Dora has 1 karma over the last year
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gRegorLove ... smol cat, posts her weight
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[schmarty] indiewebcat++ look at that quantified self tracking
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Loqi indiewebcat has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (4 in all channels)
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[fluffy] no catshaming
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gRegorLove ... photos and reposts
#
maxwelljoslyn indiewebcat++
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Loqi indiewebcat has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (5 in all channels)
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[tantek] should we take a photo before we dive into proposals?
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joseph_dickson You can also right click on yourself in Zoom for a menu of options.
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jmac Is there a way to re-watch the keynotes this soon? :)
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jmac (Am crashing in late, as usual)
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joseph_dickson What's the link to the etherpad for submissions?
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jacky joseph_dickson: https://etherpad.indieweb.org/2020-West-Sessions
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jacky I was just looking for it too lol
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[tantek] thank you same same
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joseph_dickson Thanks!
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aaronpk keynote replays will be online a bit after lunch break
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[tantek] amazing
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jacky thank you aaronpk!
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jacky now I can speed myself down to 0.4x lol
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk alright the stream is offline, we're just on zoom now
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[chrisaldrich] stepping away for a moment. brb
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[fluffy] [scottgruber] Sorry I wasn’t quite paying attention to the zoom since I was reading/voting on session topics, but I heard you mention me. What was the context?
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[fluffy] (I think it was you)
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GWG petermolnar: https://indieweb.org/2019/SF/webactions
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aaronpk 🎉🎉 https://aaronparecki.com/2020/06/27/13/indiewebcamp 🎉🎉
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Great crowd for @IndieWebCamp West keynotes and intros! We're running sessions the rest of the day, and projects and demos tomorrow! Join here ➤ https://events.indieweb.org/2020/06/indiewebcamp-west-2020-ZB8zoAAu6sdN https://aaronparecki.com/img/1240x0/2020/06/27/13/photo.jpg
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[chrisaldrich] Anyone want to volunteer to go next?
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petermolnar [hibs]: you got me curious with the inaccessible data part; any more details on that? I'm curious.
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joseph_dickson @chrisaldrich how do we +1 sessions?
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petermolnar joseph_dickson: write your name or url under the topics at https://etherpad.indieweb.org/2020-West-Sessions
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petermolnar with a +1
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joseph_dickson thanks
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[hibs] [petermolnar_] most of it isn’t self-hosted content when it’s inaccessible for me. Mainly videos that were deleted (so no titles preserved), online stories that were deleted, articles whose wayback archives are broken for some reason, etc
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joseph_dickson @chrisaldrich happy to present tomorrow, that will give me time to make notes.
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petermolnar alt.indiewebcamp calls for posse to usenet
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petermolnar [hibs]: oh. yeh. Those I also struggle with.
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[hibs] I’ve got another engagement, brb in 45 minutes!
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gRegorLove jacky, want to intro the Cooking for Others session?
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[chrisaldrich] petermolnar, you want to make a pitch for yours?
jonnybarnes and lahacker joined the channel
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Are Micropub Queries the missing link?" https://grant.codes/2020/06/27/micropub-queries
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petermolnar aaronpk: you need a robot that follows your cat with a 24/7 live stream of her
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aaronpk haha yes
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[grantcodes] With a laser pointer attachment
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jacky gRegorLove: I think that should be up to Greg due to him crafting the session
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[grantcodes] Turned on by donation 😜
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[fluffy] where are the zoom room links? are they going to be added to the schedule grid?
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jacky I _think_ so
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jacky yeah I think so; gregor is mentioning the session grid update
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[chrisaldrich] Yes, we'll add them in the next 20-30 minutes so that when we reconvene at 1:15 pm Pacific, the etherpads and Zoom links will be live
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gRegorLove Sessions starting at 13:15 Pacific now: https://indieweb.org/2020/West/Schedule#Saturday
leg left the channel
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jacky nice
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jacky thanks y'all
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joseph_dickson I wish you were all my co-workers, Everyone is so organized in this community. :)
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gRegorLove Individual sessions will be linked up shortly there
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joseph_dickson Usually when I'm in a meeting someone goes on for a half an hour about some random bit
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jacky so many conflicts!
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[fluffy] same, I think we all have That One Coworker who enjoys talking about their own personal stuff regardless of what the meeting is about
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jacky thankfully _I_ can be in multiple places at once thanks to multiple laptops >:)
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[fluffy] yes but do you have more than one auditory cortex?
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jacky HA
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jacky heads down to secret lab
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jacky gimme 30 minutes
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[fluffy] I’m grateful that this year there’s only one pair of sessions that I feel conflicted about and it’s only a mild conflict
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[fluffy] The scheduling feels way less competitive than last year, too
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jacky oh it's like three for me lol
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[fluffy] I mean the fact the grid didn’t even fill up
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[fluffy] well okay I guess I was sort of interested in Hovercards but I figure I’ll just read the notes on that one since it feels like something someone will build a library for 🙂
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[tantek] lol conflicts from 2pm-5pm. y'all are just too good at coming up with good topics!
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jgmac1106 chrisaldrich++
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Loqi chrisaldrich has 15 karma in this channel over the last year (40 in all channels)
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jgmac1106 gwg++
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Loqi gwg has 28 karma in this channel over the last year (134 in all channels)
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jgmac1106 both for organizing
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omz13_ Great to see everybody today. I had hoped to be able to make some of the sessions later today, but afraid I can't.
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jgmac1106 gRegorLove++ for having the best wiki gardening tools around
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Loqi gRegorLove has 22 karma in this channel over the last year (77 in all channels)
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[tantek] why does red room start at 1:15 and orange at 1pm?
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[fluffy] with private posting can I get someone else to take notes? I’m hitting my limit for the day I think
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[tantek] fluffy yes at the start of your session definitely ask someone to take notes!
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[tantek] in general facilitators should ask another in the session to take notes, too hard to facilitate and note-take in parallel
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jgmac1106 yes different tasks, and please recognize both are physically and emotionally taxing and be willing to offer help
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jgmac1106 scribing is less emotionally taxing, if English is a language of choice, but doesn’t allow you to participate as much
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petermolnar omz13_: don't worry. They will all be recorded, notes will be taken, and it'll all go into the wiki.
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jgmac1106 facilitating is harder work and somethign I mess up every day as a teacher
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aaronpk ok all zoom links are on the schedule grid!
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/2020/West/Schedule
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[fluffy] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 36 karma in this channel over the last year (231 in all channels)
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gRegorLove Refresh^ and we just updated so sessions are 1hr with 15min breaks
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[chrisaldrich] gRegorLove++ for handling the session grid!
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Loqi gRegorLove has 23 karma in this channel over the last year (78 in all channels)
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gRegorLove [chrisaldrich]++ great MCing. intros and everything went super smoothly
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Loqi [chrisaldrich] has 16 karma in this channel over the last year (41 in all channels)
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[chrisaldrich] Reminder to everyone to refresh the schedule page when you come back: https://indieweb.org/2020/West/Schedule
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jgmac1106 chrisaldrich++ it was amazing
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[chrisaldrich] and we only fell behind by 30 minutes or so???
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GWG [grantcodes]: Are you facilitating?
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[grantcodes] Yeah internet jank
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[grantcodes] Feel free to start. Will be one min
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[schmarty] okay
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[David_Bryant] "Codeless automation tools and the indieweb + How webmentions and the web work" is up and running in the Red Room...
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[snarfed] [grantcodes]++ your open graph image is amaaaazing
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Loqi [grantcodes] has 8 karma in this channel over the last year (24 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] rose++ for all the shortcut tips
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Loqi rose has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (39 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] I want the "halfway point" for micropub clients, just give me the html file I can paste in
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[jgmac1106] I have no endpoint
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[jgmac1106] metadata loss...humans...not technology
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[chrisaldrich] What is CRUD?
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Loqi CRUD refers to the ability to Create, Read, Update and Delete comments and posts https://indieweb.org/CRUD
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[jgmac1106] I love Hibs domain names!!
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[jgmac1106] coming from somebody stuck in the middle of quickthoughts and longthoughts
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[chrisaldrich] sorry tantek! 😉
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[tantek] lol no worries [chrisaldrich]. I think it's less the personal embarrassment and more a growing desire to decenter founders/organizers in group discussions as part of dismantling work
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[chrisaldrich] Maybe we should change it to What would IndieWeb Do? 🙄
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[tantek] or What Should I Do?
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[chrisaldrich] tantek++ for profound thoughtfulness
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Loqi tantek has 19 karma in this channel over the last year (118 in all channels)
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petermolnar nah, than we have to rename single point of aaron as well
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[tantek] lol at least that's a clear thing that needs to be fixed
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jacky yup!
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[tantek] documenting criticisms / community vulnerabilities like that is a good thing
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[tantek] thank you petermolnar for acknowledging the raised hands, feel free to ask folks to to wrap up after a minute of talking also
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[hibs] [jgmac1106] ha thanks! I love finding fun domain names
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[tantek] so that you can move onto the others with hands raised
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] you need a thicker pen 🙂
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[tantek] "make the text bolder" 🙂
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[tantek] petermolnar looks like chaitanya has had their hand raised for a bit
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petermolnar I know
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[jgmac1106] Jordan keynoted IWC Summit last year
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[tantek] link to session?
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[David_Bryant] [mJordan] -- to second [jgmac1106]'s comments, adding display of webmention info to your web site is (in my experience, at least) a reasonably straightforward thing to do. Happy to talk to you about that more if that's something that's on your list of good ideas.
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Loqi [mJordan] has 1 karma over the last year
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[jgmac1106] DavidBryant my comment was more Jordan knows hwo to make the straightforward and make it look amazing
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[schmarty] oh no, ban Loqi
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[schmarty] mJordan++
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Loqi mJordan has 2 karma over the last year
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[tantek] FYI go watch Jordan's excellent keynote from IWS 2019! https://indieweb.org/2019/changing-my-domain
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[schmarty] *bad not ban
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[chrisaldrich] petermolnar++ for facilitation
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Loqi petermolnar has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (25 in all channels)
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[tantek] mJordan++
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Loqi mJordan has 3 karma over the last year
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[jgmac1106] petermolnar++ for modeling how to facilitate
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Loqi slow down!
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[David_Bryant] ↩️ Ah, sorry -- I meant your comment about using webmention.js
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gRegorLove session 1 done, 15 minute break
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[mJordan] Design and working with CSS is my favorite. Definitely need to get some sort of web mentions (or another indie building block) working on my site.
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aaronpk 👏 great first session everyone!
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jacky woot!
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Loqi yay!
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joseph_dickson @petermolnar I enjoyed that session. That you for presenting it
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joseph_dickson *thank you :P
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[chrisaldrich] Wow! What a rush to archive etherpads! 😉
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sknebel Virtual IWC West NOW: https://indieweb.org/2020/West/Schedule Next Events: Homebrew Website Club Meetups https://events.indieweb.org/tag/hwc, Code of conduct: https://indieweb.org/code-of-conduct, log https://chat.indieweb.org/today
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[chrisaldrich] If anyone is interested in working at some of the automation pieces and has Webmention set (or can set it up quickly with a plugin) I'm happy to help walk through an example or two of it tomorrow morning.
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[schmarty] chrisaldrich: sorry, what is it you would like to demonstrate?
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[chrisaldrich] the IFTTT/Zapier/etc. pieces from the first session on automation/webmention/micropub
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petermolnar oh, that archiving was fast o.O
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[schmarty] ahh, thanks!
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[chrisaldrich] If anyone wants to try to implement it tomorrow and needs help in any case.
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[chrisaldrich] Sorry, I suppose those in the other room were missing the context. 😉
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petermolnar I'm happy to help with Zapier and Integromat, but IFTTT with it's current design is not my kind of blues
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ben_thatmustbeme is thankful schedule is in 24H format, makes it easier for me to just add 3 to figure it out in my timezome
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ben_thatmustbeme i know its not really harder, but i have had my computer clock in 24h format for like 10 years
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ben_thatmustbeme oops, should have been on -chat
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[tantek] question is do you display 24H time on your personal site? (brings it back on topic 😄 )
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't
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[tantek] 🤔
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ben_thatmustbeme perhaps as i rebuild
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[jgmac1106] funny I don't either yet all my devices set to 24 clock...
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ben_thatmustbeme i haven't posted to my site in far too long
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[jgmac1106] actually don't display time published but my dt-updated on 12 hour...hmmmm..might have found an easy fall back project tomorrow
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[jgmac1106] thats okay [ben_thatmustbe] clocks still work
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ben_thatmustbeme i tried to rewrite everything and i think i was sort of burned out for a long while after the socialWG closed
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[jgmac1106] good to see you back. Someone told me HTML still works the same way...kinda like clocks
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ben_thatmustbeme @jacky, i think you webmentioned the wrong ben https://v2.jacky.wtf/post/ba6154ba-ffa7-44dd-afa6-325e6064974e
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Loqi [Jacky Alciné] Came from a nice night at Mozilla HQ for the #IndieWeb Homebrew Website Club (IWC) with Tantek, Ben and and Coty. Learned about variable fonts - I might make use of this for black.af.
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[tantek] what is person tag
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Loqi A person tag (AKA people tag) is a tag on a post that refers to a specific person by URL, and which the post author explicitly adds as a tagging action, beyond just mentioning a person via hyperlink, h-card, or @-name (autocompleted or not) https://indieweb.org/person-tag
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[tantek] wow lots of brainstorming on this but I didn't actually implement it: https://indieweb.org/person-tag#tweet_text
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[tantek] I think UI is the next key step
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[jgmac1106] archive.org...you must solve that issue. my kids can't finish Carmen SanDiego....something closes all the time
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[tantek] wat
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[schmarty] relevant to the here-today session
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[tantek] oh hah
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[tantek] person-tag to do for me: https://indieweb.org/Falcon#person_tags
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[tantek] human / social concerns around person-tagging is much more important to consider in our interaction design than the UI design to make it convenient to person-tag people, or the markup or protocols underneath
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[jgmac1106] [manton] I save a pdf to my persoanl server, and then publish a bookmark with quotes
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jacky yikes
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jacky sorry ben_thatmustbeme
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[tantek] private person-tags! yes
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[tantek] ok that's a brilliant way to move forward
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[tantek] even if decentralized allows you to tag, doesn't mean you should
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[tantek] I'd like to explore private person-tags for a bit
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[schmarty] tantek: you're grabbing my interest!!
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[tantek] I just had the insight!
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[tantek] I've raised my hand to discuss it 😄 🙋‍♂️
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aaronpk time!
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[schmarty] ?
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aaronpk oh i'm 15 minutes off
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[tantek] lol
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[tantek] aaronpk, now that's jumping the gun 😉
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[tantek] group tags!
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[jgmac1106] hibbs I dig your model you are sharing about motivation for preserving as community knowledge...here is a model we have been working on: https://archive.jgregorymcverry.com/practices-and-participatory-learning-environments/
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[tantek] friends-only person-tagging
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[tantek] we often start with what's the user-model or use-case or user experience
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[snarfed] tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 20 karma in this channel over the last year (119 in all channels)
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[tantek] when we're creating technologies that involve more than one person (i.e. more than you just posting on your own site), I think another question to ask an interrogate is:
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[tantek] what's the consent model?
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[tantek] specifically between everyone that's involved in the online interaction
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[jgmac1106] not in the person tagging session but @ mentioning people in POSSE tools vs twitter expected behaviors has lead to issues for me in the past
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[tantek] and how do we make sure that the consent model reflects the needs of the least privileged, the most vulnerable?
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[tantek] how do we make sure that the consent model acknowledges power disparities?
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[tantek] this is an area we on the IndieWeb can do a better job than the silos
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[tantek] we can design for respect rather than designing for clicks
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[jgmac1106] like in Known if you reply to a tweet that automatically @ mentions the author...but replyign with and without @ mentions have different cultural expectations
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[tantek] we can design for safety rather than engagement
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[jgmac1106] yep and also Twitters fault power users pushed to tweetdeck where @ mentions work differently then twitter.com or native app
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[tantek] This is a good reason to not rush to implement "easy to tag" person-tag UI
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[jgmac1106] hibbs++ for an awesome job moderating digital archiving and media
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Loqi hibbs has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] without making it just as easy for the person who it getting tagged to decline, or rather have to opt-in to getting tagged, perhaps upgrading from a private person-tag, to a friends-only person-tag
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aaronpk ok _now_ it's time
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[tantek] or there's also the "repair" scenarios as well.
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[tantek] if you're going to person-tag someone, make it easy for them to get notified and untag themselves
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[tantek] this has strong implications for POSSEing person-tags as well
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GWG I look forward to watching the Hibs session
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[tantek] if you can't easily untag someone from a POSSE post, then perhaps one shouldn't person-tag in that silo?
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[manton] I wasn’t in the tagging session, but wanted to mention that I like @-replying to domain names, e.g. @manton.org. It requires nice personal domain names, but I think it’s the most clear and scalable to the whole web.
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[tantek] phew lots more questions about person-tagging than I expected!
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jacky lol aaronpk
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[tantek] even more human/consent/respect/safety design necessary before building / designing anything
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[schmarty] hibs++ thanks for facilitating an excellent session!
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Loqi hibs has 2 karma over the last year
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[schmarty] lots to think about
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[tantek] [manton] there's something quite different between @-mentioning (I like your idea too) and person-tagging
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petermolnar [hibs]: I can't find the previous sessions about the archiving topics; if I find them, I'll send them
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petermolnar was anyone there though; I think it was Brighton, where we had a long discussion about file formats, archiving media, etc
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[tantek] I should have been typing a lot of this in the etherpad
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petermolnar ctrl-c ctrl-v
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[tantek] please feel free top copy/paste, or perhaps we can put a chat timeindex link into the etherpad for later recovery / integration of notes
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Loqi I agree
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[tantek] Loqi a request to add timeindex chat links
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jacky what do we do with the hallway etherpad?
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jacky joins the hallway zoom until the next session
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[jgmac1106] for leaving tags on the wall jacky
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jacky gotcha
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[hibs] Thanks everyone!
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[jgmac1106] [hibs] check out /commonplace_book way you archive sounds quite similar to [chrisaldrich]
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joseph_dickson @hibs I really enjoyed your session. My work has a virtual black whole of missing photos taken from the 90s to the early to mid 2000s because they were digital and no one kept an archive until my co-worker took on the task about 10 years ago.
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[fluffy] both red and orange appear to be in the same meeting for private posting
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[hibs] [jgmac1106] I’ll check that out thanks!
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[hibs] @joseph_dickson thanks, glad you enjoyed it! I enjoyed your notes. Also, “Metadata is a love note to the future” is a quote by Jason Scott fyi
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[tantek] whoa lots of IWC shirts & backgrounds in the private posting session!
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[tantek] so cool!
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[tantek] notification!
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[mJordan] the fancy gray one from last year is ridiculously comfy. Basically my favorite shirt
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gRegorLove what is audience
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Loqi audience is an experimental property of a post that indicates the intended recipients (readers) of the post https://indieweb.org/audience
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gRegorLove [tantek] this one? https://indieweb.org/private_posts#Allow_silo_friends_to_see_private_posts
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[tantek] gRegorLove: this old page: https://indieweb.org/sign-in-use-cases
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[tantek] and I like the framing of "sign-in" as a user feature instead of being IndieAuth-centric
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[tantek] private consent to notification handshake protocol
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[tantek] building on [schmarty]'s suggestions
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[tantek] maybe build this upon asymmetric follows?
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[tantek] if you follow someone, you're saying it's ok to be notified by them? or maybe soft notify like IG does?
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[tantek] and then you can adjust that notification frequency/urgency up or down?
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[scottgruber] [petermolnar_] can I find the json of webmentions and automated web hook services on your site?
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gRegorLove [manton] btw, I wanted to see if I could get a temporary test micro.blog account to try out themes and fix mf2 in them
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[tantek] I think the Twitter and thus Mastodon model of "request to follow" is wrong wrong wrong. It makes it a chore of the person who is being asked rather than the person asking
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[tantek] See Dopplr for an alternative
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gRegorLove what is dopplr
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Loqi Dopplr was a silo (at dopplr.com) for sharing future travel plans https://indieweb.org/Dopplr
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[schmarty] tantek++ good point! love that as a starting point!
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Loqi tantek has 21 karma in this channel over the last year (120 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] gRegorLove most default themes in micro.blog fixed. But you get some legacy themes, people who add any Hugo theme and others who may remove mf2 as they learn and play with CSS
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[schmarty] "i think you would like to see my private stuff, here are ways to subscribe" seems like a better way to start
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[tantek] Dopplr got so many things right
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gRegorLove I saw several in the m.b github themes dir that need fixes
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[tantek] Similarly Flickr allowed you to add someone as a "friend" or "family" (asymmetric) which meant that you were giving them permission to see your friends-only or family-only photos
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[tantek] again, no pressure to reciprocate
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[schmarty] and barely even pressure to subscribe / look!
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[tantek] don't give me a queue of permission requests to manage, acccept, decline (with possible social ramifications), or leave in limbo to bug me and make me feel guilty
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[jgmac1106] Not in session...but worry above is attack vector..what happens when 100s attack with requests
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] that's the point that attack vector is exactly what Twitter and Mastodon's request follow permission model does!
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[jgmac1106] Yep we jinxed each other
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[tantek] and FB too. The classic "Why haven't you accepted my FB friend request?"
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[jgmac1106] And we'll documented. Especially bc it enables DM
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[tantek] you don't need it for DM, that's my point!
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[tantek] if you do the Dopplr model, you are saying, you may send me DMs
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GWG I'm still hoping to figure out the question I posted in -wordpress
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GWG For my private posts issue
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[tantek] without any need to reciprocate
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[jgmac1106] Yeah private post to me says "I choose" not "you ask"
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[fluffy] Yeah like I’m pretty happy with the way I have things set up in Publ; I can proactively add people to my friends list(s), and if someone wants to get in they implicitly ask by trying to view the entry. The hard part is getting people to know that there’s something to view.
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[tantek] ironically this is the email model too. you are saying (to/cc) I give you permission to view this message.
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[fluffy] The reason I was considering the ActivityPub thing is that I could, at least for Mastodon users, implement friends-only notifications the same way that followers-only notifications work for Mastodon - only sending out pushed notifications to people who are authorized AND following.
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[fluffy] The place where Mastodon falls short is that it assumes that someone following you means they have access to your private-ish content
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[tantek] I guess what I'm saying is that Twitter -> OStatus -> ActivityPub got private/protected accounts wrong in terms of the user permission(s) flow model
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[tantek] fluffy, that too!
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[fluffy] Yeah I agree that it’s completely backwards
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[fluffy] I think it speaks to how quickly it was hacked in though
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[fluffy] it’s been a constant source of complaints and for whatever reason it’s never been addressed by the core mastodevs
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[fluffy] like, I can’t see why I can’t restrict who receives push notifications. That’s the whole point to why they switched to ActivityPub to get this functionality in the first place.
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[tantek] except AP permission/privacy was modeled on Pump was modeled on OStatus was modeled on Twitter protected/privacy model
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[tantek] boom
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[fluffy] from a protocol level or from a UX level? because the UX level is obviously Twitter-esque (and terrible)
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[manton] [gRegorLove] Definitely. If you don’t mind, send me a quick email to help@micro.blog and I’ll create a test site for your account.
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[tantek] running along the jargon cliff seeing Loqi is gonna push
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[tantek] fluffy, both. Twitter's UX drove the user-model protocol details in OStatus thus Pump thus AP
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[tantek] this is a great example of only applying "decentralization" to a problem / app / site is insufficient, and maybe worse, if you end up smearing the UX anti-patterns of a silo across every site
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[tantek] decentralization, federation etc.
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[fluffy] fair. and let’s actually move this to #indieweb-dev 🙂
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[tantek] :thumbsup_all:
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joseph_dickson @GWG private posts in WordPress by default need to be marked private with a password but its not without flaws. Media attachments for instance are still public even if their attached to a private post