#indieweb 2020-08-25
2020-08-25 UTC
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# 
[chrisaldrich] Ha! I went back and looked at the paper version again and definitely no advertising mention there. I should also note that it's not only in the A section, but it's immediately opposite the Opinion page... When I load the webpage without blockers, all the adds are for Wix. 🙂
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[schmarty] I'm feeling a need for a "maybe" want to read status, haha. Got several browser tabs open with book recommendations but I definitely don't want to just add them all to my to-read list without some filtering.
# [schmarty] Maybe I should just mark those recommendation posts as to-read, but it feels like different work from actually reading 😂
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# 
avalos Hello, everyone!
# avalos Isn't indie web similar to the small web?
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# 
KartikPrabhu what is small web?
# 
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "small web" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "small web is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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# 
petermolnar re small web: I'd say aral already borrowed the term, probably from https://neustadt.fr/essays/the-small-web/
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# [James_Gallaghe] I think that the “small web” refers more to taking websites back to their basics: HTML, CSS, JavaScript. “The web before the cruft” is now I think about it.
# [James_Gallaghe] The IndieWeb seems to be more about data ownership and syndication. I’d say the main commonality is that both terms refer a lot to the original principles of the web.
# petermolnar that's a different meaning; I'm pretty sure aral's main focus is not about that.
# [James_Gallaghe] Yeah. I think we all have our own interpretations of it.
# KartikPrabhu I think HTML, CSS and Javascript are still the basics of websites
# [James_Gallaghe] Neustadt’s essay was certainly what got me thinking about the older web. I loved all the examples he gave to older sites (and to projects like Geocities that are trying to archive them).
# KartikPrabhu not sure what else is there
# [James_Gallaghe] Yeah, I just mean with frameworks being piled on top of frameworks and such.
# petermolnar on my personal tone, it's The Old Web: small sites, mainly focused around personal or group (forum) interest. The cruft is secondary; a flash site used to be able to fit this just as well as a pure xhtml-strict 1.0
# KartikPrabhu not sure why that is a useful distinction. I might use 500 tools to build my HTML page, but it is still HTML
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# [James_Gallaghe] I like that distinction Peter. I’m still trying to build a model in my mind to separate out all these terms.
# petermolnar example: we finally had some days off and revisite Wales; looking for Dorothea Quarry, I found this site: http://www.penmorfa.com/Slate/index.htm - a perfect example of that old web, focused around a very specific topic, with extreme depth on it, organised in a way the author thinks.
# KartikPrabhu there are FB groups that have very specific interests, also Reddit and so on
# KartikPrabhu do those count as "small web"?
# petermolnar most of them without the knowledge though
# KartikPrabhu so there is some threshold of "knowledge"?
# petermolnar there's a thinkpad topic on an oldschool hungarian forum, where people described how they build a thinkpad x200 running on solar power vs reddit thinkpad where people posting photos of the shiny shiny
# petermolnar there is a threshold of ... depth ?
# petermolnar I don't really have a better word
# 
[Murray] I'd say things like subreddits and FB groups are seeking a similar solution, but it feels like a common trend in groups that consider themselves part of the "small web" is that ability to only be reached by those that know the way, so the discovery/reach of silos like FB/Reddit automatically makes them feel too available
# petermolnar > too available - tread carefully :) I completely agree on this though: the more sweat went into making something, the more valuable it is for yourself. (See IKEA effect)
# KartikPrabhu The "indie" in indieweb is much more clear that the "small" in smallweb
# KartikPrabhu like what is small?
# petermolnar small => not BigTech backed ? It is indeed a bad wording.
# petermolnar the interesting bit is that what Aral's Small Web described should be called non-profit web; the small web the essay from Parimal describes is oldschool (?) web, and the two are very different thoughts.
# KartikPrabhu I propose a microweb: it is a website that is plain HTML, self-hosted, and no one but you knows about it
# KartikPrabhu it satisfies all criteria
# petermolnar I'm not convinced it's better, than small; I do love the "no one but you knows about it" part though :D
# KartikPrabhu you're a pioneer
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# [James_Gallaghe] This is a great thread!
# petermolnar bad Loqi
# KartikPrabhu hahahaha
# [James_Gallaghe] I do think that the distinction between “small” and “indie” is not clear. We’ve all got somewhat different definitions here. Maybe Peter is onto something re: small is not equal to “big tech” backed. Or maybe it just means that few people know about it. I don’t know.
# KartikPrabhu \me gives Loqi a cake
# KartikPrabhu gaah
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# petermolnar All these phrases depend on the context. Small is a terrible choice of word for the Aral meaning: he's small means strictly indipendent websites. For others, like that essay, the small web is means those websites that had basically fallen of Google - either buried too deep, on page X (X > 10), or literally not indexed any more, because there was no update for a decade. (Not that there's anything to update on, say, the welsh slate indus
# petermolnar try of the 19th century.) For is, indieweb is our way of interconnecting sites, so indie web gets confusing. They can't be called Web 1.0, because that'd exclude a lot of tech; neither Old Web, because that would exclude new. Retro Web would sound overused and forced. Microweb is a bit too sarcastic to my taste. Sigh.
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# petermolnar maybe we should just call it ... web?
# [James_Gallaghe] That works for me. All in favor? 😄
# KartikPrabhu eye
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# Guest71246 As it is kind of global too, maybe we could call it the world wide web?
# petermolnar updates to that Aral's Small Web (and, oh, dear): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24269830 "[...] Small Web is not about having your own Static Web page or having yet another tool for geeks. [...] I’m trying to build a tool for developers (including us) so that we can use it to build everything things for everyday people [...]" So... he's now trying to reinvent ActivityPub and it's ecosystem? Or Matrix? This guy never learns.
# petermolnar world wide web, that has a good ring to it! :D
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# [James_Gallaghe] I wonder why nobody has thought about that before.
# [James_Gallaghe] Maybe we could shorten it to make it easier to remember. “WWW” anyone?
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# 
[KevinMarks] that's actually 3 times longer to say
# 
@chromakode We are totally unprepared for the effects recommendation-engine fueled radicalizing memes are having on society. (twitter.com/_/status/1297708858438082560)
# [James_Gallaghe] Indeed haha [KevinMarks]!
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# floridafruitgeek I'm trying to download my Twitter archive so I can "own my tweets". But whenever I click on My Twitter Data, I get a message: "The download your data feature is unavailable right now. Try again at a later date." Have they suspended this feature as a result of the Twitter hack?
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# floridafruitgeek It's been a couple of weeks now that I've been trying to download my Twitter archive, getting that same "feature is unavailable" message every time. I wonder if this is a general issue, or could it be something particular to my account. Anyone have thoughts?
# floridafruitgeek It's been a couple of weeks now that I've been trying to download my Twitter archive, getting that same "feature is unavailable" message every time. I wonder if this is a general issue, or could it be something particular to my account. Anyone have thoughts?
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# [snarfed] interesting web book catalog project, relevant to /personal_library etc: https://12mv2.com/bookshelves/
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# petermolnar [manton]: https://indieweb.org/2012/UK/Guest_List - Aral knows this.
# petermolnar we are not radical enough by not throwing silos away completely
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# petermolnar Of course they are aligned. But our marketing is inclusive (sure, post on medium as well, why not), whereas his ideas are exclusive (no silos! bad big tech!).
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# [Jose_Leiva] ↩️ do you have a post with implementation details?
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[fluffy] I’m not a fan of Aral’s “small web” project if only because he’s basically trying to reinvent things that a LOT of us have been talking about for well over a decade now, and it feels like he’s trying to stake a claim over the idea of (gasp!) owning your own website. Plus, his insistence on a specific tech stack and a specific way to do things is very offputting.
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# [fluffy] meanwhile I’m making the probable mistake of engaging on HN comments, with this one dude who hates IndieWeb because we are apparently “sponsored by Google” and therefore have no principles. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24274919
# [snarfed] [fluffy] oof. feel free to also mention that that sponsorship was for individual event(s), not ongoing expenses, which are transparent on https://opencollective.com/indieweb
# [schmarty] => chat?
# [snarfed] obligatory: https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
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[tantek] some good criticisms of "posting obsessed" culture here that apply obviously to "social media" but could easily apply to new our own sites as well, if we're not careful: https://tommorris.org/posts/2018/instamuseums/
# avalos James_Gallaghe: No, according to what I've read so far about the small web, I think both terms refer to exactly the same.
# avalos https://small-tech.org/
# [snarfed] [tantek] personally i’m glad we have a wide range of posting philosophies, from aaronpk on one end to maybe eg me on the other, https://snarfed.org/2013-09-24_the-unquantified-self
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# avalos KartikPrabhu: Yes, I think the indie web is much more clear indeed.
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# avalos manton: yes, I agree in that, they're not exactly the same, but compatible.
# [snarfed] changing subject again, curious what [gRegorLove] thinks of https://12mv2.com/bookshelves/
# [schmarty] I did say that!
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# [chrisaldrich] Are there other blogging platforms similar to Blot.im that will generate a website based on simple text/markdown files in folders (perhaps on Google Drive, Dropbox, etc.)? Nothing is coming immediately to mind.