#indieweb 2020-08-28
2020-08-28 UTC
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# 
wholesomedonut So is there anyone here that..... actually is active?
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# wholesomedonut Just curious about what you guys do here
# wholesomedonut See I'm coming in through IRC lmao. I should take a look at the slack then.
# wholesomedonut Fair enough. :)
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# wholesomedonut Looks like a really interesting concept you guys have here.
# wholesomedonut Kinda like the old school webrings?
# wholesomedonut Honestly I miss forums.
# wholesomedonut I used to run one for a video game clan like 10 years ago and the small community vibe was great
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# 
[chrisaldrich] Definitely not completist, but interesting: https://switching.software/
# [chrisaldrich] 👋 [tw2113]
# [chrisaldrich] What are you working on tonight? I figured you'd be buried in a new book?
# [chrisaldrich] I'm about to hibernate into reading "Design for Cognitive Bias" before the book launch party tomorrow: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/design-for-cognitive-bias-launch-party-tickets-116127463369
# [chrisaldrich] That means lots of new /read posts on the 'ol website/pirate chest?
# [chrisaldrich] If comments were different flavors of posts in WordPress, you could make an initial post and then do comments on it as ongoing updates....
# [chrisaldrich] I've always sort of wished I could get my feeds to not only include my "primary" posts, but also include my own comments on my site.
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# [Emma_Humphries] Ooof: https://blog.lukaszolejnik.com/web-browsing-histories-are-private-personal-data-now-what/
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# [Ana_Rodrigues] ↩️ Thanks for this! I bookmarked it and I will read this weekend!
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nekr0z I'm thinking of implementing my own webmention endpoint/storage/processing (to use instead of webmention.io/webmention.js combo and to try and figure out salmentions), but I'm somewhat scared of the legal side of things. Did anyone explore webmentions' legal aspect? How do I make sure I don't violate GDPR or some other law when I store webmentions on my site? Is backfeeding twitter replies even legal at all?
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petermolnar !tell sebsel hmmm is there a search function on your site somewhere?
# petermolnar !tell eddiehinkle your https certificate expired and your site displays http 502 :(
# petermolnar nekr0z: personal take on it: I only display author names, times, links, and the type of the webmention, if detected; not the content.
# petermolnar I'm talking about displaying; I do extract the content, even save it, but not showing it, meaning sending salmentions is possible.
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# petermolnar after re-reading that post from Sebastian I wish the symmertical links of Xanadu were reality
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jeremycherfas Good morning everyone.
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# [James_Gallaghe] Good morning everyone!
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[KevinMarks] principles << The Internet is for End Users https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users
# 
Loqi ok, I added "The Internet is for End Users https://www.mnot.net/blog/2020/08/28/for_the_users" to the "See Also" section of /principles https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=72318&oldid=72229
# [KevinMarks] principles << RFC 8890 The Internet is for End Users https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8890.html
# Loqi ok, I added "RFC 8890 The Internet is for End Users https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8890.html" to the "See Also" section of /principles https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=72319&oldid=72318
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# [tb] [Ana_Rodrigues] very interesting article! Something I've been mulling heavily over as I figure out how I want to do webmentions and backfeeds on my own site.
# [tb] I've been considering the "View the conversation on Twitter" approach for silo backfeeds at least
# [tb] I need to look at some of the good examples people here have for salmentions to see how everyone's doing that
# [tb] Also nice article on Smashing Magazine [Ana_Rodrigues]! Reflects a lot of my own sentiments in why I became so interested in the IndieWeb when I discovered it recently
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# [snarfed] also related: https://brid.gy/about#gdpr
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# [chrisaldrich] snarfed++ for pointing out the subtleties which can be easily missed
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# [tb] The overall value of that article for me was that it got me thinking a little more deeply about privacy when it comes to backfeeds and webmentions
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# petermolnar hang on. "Never read the comments" is a modern internet law; are you saying there are finally places, again, where reading the comments is good for you?! Yay!
# petermolnar pats Loqi
# [chrisaldrich] Some personal websites will highlight when the author makes replies in their own comments section. I've been tempted to add some CSS to my site to highlight replies to my posts by others replying from their websites (via webmention) as there is often more thought and care placed there since they're putting their reply on their own website.
# nekr0z after reading sgreger's article, all the comments, and exploring the links I'm starting to think that the only legally safe and unquestionably ethical way to deal with webmentions is to have JS than would retrieve the webmention source, parse it, render, and display, and never to store anything but the link to the source. Too bad it would leak visitors to webmention source site :\
# [chrisaldrich] I need to put some more thought in how I want to present this, but I think it may also have a side benefit of promoting webmentions as a reply mechanism.
# [chrisaldrich] I also want a way to not highlight those sorts of replies coming from silos though....
# [chrisaldrich] I'll see if I can start collecting some examples. In the WordPress space, some themes build this in and I think there may be a plugin that does this for site administrators.
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# [chrisaldrich] I could have sworn that CSS Tricks had something like this, but they're doing featured comments instead, which is a larger idea that subsumes author comments: https://css-tricks.com/curating-comments-threads/#comment-67794
# [chrisaldrich] What are featured comments?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "featured comments" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "featured comments is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# [chrisaldrich] It's also often a feature of sites like StackExchange which allows users to vote up the more useful responses to questions
# [chrisaldrich] I'll start a page to collect them. If others can think of examples, post them here and I'll add them to the stub I'm starting.
# [chrisaldrich] no worries sknebel, I'll clean it up! 😉
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# petermolnar re webmentions, silos, comments: in that mentioned Berlin session adactio came up with an idea to fetch licence to see if reproduction of such data - the comment, etc - is OK with the author, but as far as I can tell, it was not explored deeper.
# [tb] Reminds me I need to put `rel=license` in my site footer's copyright notice
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# petermolnar (10 years down the line we'll tell webmention jokes instead of TCP ones. I'd like to send a webmention - I can accept webmention. I'm going to send a webmention - I'll accept the webmention [...])
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# [chrisaldrich] Who will be the first to implement sending/receiving a Chatham House Rule Webmention? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_House_Rule#:~:text=Since%20its%20most%20recent%20refinement,other%20participant%2C%20may%20be%20revealed.
# petermolnar that's interesting
# petermolnar and surprisingly relevant
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# [Ana_Rodrigues] [Mat_Rosero] I
# [Ana_Rodrigues] well that’s very embarrassing, I clicked “enter” before finishing my message 🤦♀️
# [Ana_Rodrigues] I was going to say that somehow I completely forgot that I have another website/domain and it may fit better what you were asking. I also own anarodrigu.es which I haven’t touched in many years but it’s what I would say “my professional” domain that I put on my CV when I apply for jobs.
# [Ana_Rodrigues] I still consider my blog my “main” as it is who I am as a whole person but I don’t redirect people/jobs to that one initially.
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# [Mat_Rosero] I like the cat on your blog 😁
# [Mat_Rosero] [Ana_Rodrigues] that’s sort of what I’ve been running through my mind, yeah
# petermolnar Interesting topic that one; professional vs personal. While my site contains "professional" topics, nearly all of those came out of hobby time, because I'm not allowed to post work code on my site - being an employee usually comes with those restrictions. As a result, I always looked at my site as a hobby thing, regardless of the content. So, question: what/who decides whether or not a site is professional or hobby?
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# [Ana_Rodrigues] Yeah, I do that then and I think it works well. I personally want my blog to have all types of posts and not just posts of my “career”. And on my other domain (I should update it actually) I want to do what you currently do with yours and showcase work stuff. Also it gives me the option to link to certain technical posts only.
# petermolnar but wouldn't that, from a certain perspective, be classified as a portfolio, and not a website?
# twomanytacos lately i've been wanting to write about what i read and the shows i watch on my site, but right now i post stuff only about programming and i've been thinking about making a separate blog for that, but then i think my site is my little corner in the internet, why no both?
# twomanytacos meanwhile i havne't posted anything at all until i decide 🤷
# [Ana_Rodrigues] Yeah, petermolnar, it would (I think). Yeah all my work contracts also said that “all code written belongs to us” and… i kinda … ignored that? 😳
# petermolnar we all do that, occasionally :)
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# [Ana_Rodrigues] twomanytacos, I was the other way around. I used to write about travelling only (and personal stuff) and wanted to add programming stuff. I felt like it was too much to maintain another blog. Not to mention pressure. I also went through a personal thing were I kinda started to feel that I want to be my authentic self and if that doesn’t fit a “developer persona”… I needed another environment?
# [Ana_Rodrigues] So the “portefolio/professional” website would be to give whoever is hiring the quick info they wanted and if they wanted to know me a whole person they can visit my blog.
# twomanytacos i think that, in case i want to share my blog with a recruiter, i could share a link filtered with the technical posts only
# [Ana_Rodrigues] Yeah, same.
# [Ana_Rodrigues] If I have to hide my interests, maybe it isn’t the right job I suppose.
# petermolnar I have a hard time believing any recruiter would ever actually check a blog.
# twomanytacos petermolnar: some, they do
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# twomanytacos when it's internal they want to check what do you do on the web, side projects and what you write about
# petermolnar [Ana_Rodrigues]: hmmmmm, that's a tricky one (hide my interests); I definitely have to tone some aspects of myself down at a corp environment. Related read: http://www.roughtype.com/?p=8724
# [Ana_Rodrigues] petermolnar: oh absolutely. I’m only talking about my personal choice. I only post on my blog what I am comfortable with everyone seeing. But it is a personal choice and I completely understand why people may have more than one blog or personas. What I mean as well is that I also personally decided who I share my blog with (which right now is the public).
# [Ana_Rodrigues] But… I think the “portefolio/professional” website acts like a filter. I should update mine.
# [Ana_Rodrigues] At least it worked for me when I applied for jobs in the last 9 years 😂… I still have the link to my personal blog there.
# [Ana_Rodrigues] > So, question: what/who decides whether or not a site is professional or hobby?
# [Ana_Rodrigues] It’s a good question. Our industry is weird.
# petermolnar see, this is a serious problem in dev (progressive) vs ops (conservative): I can't make a portfolio, because stating "sh*t didn't break for years" doesn't sound like an achievement enough.
# 
Zegnat "Yeah all my work contracts also said that “all code written belongs to us”" - for both my tech jobs I have made it clear during interviews that I very much planned to continue on the open-source projects that were also on my CV and that I was not going to go along with any scheme where they own all my work
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# Zegnat I do wonder if I am even allowed to show my homepage when applying for a job. I know some companies want as little private information about applicants as possible because that way they can never be accused of filtering people out through discriminatory ways. And my homepage is very much TMI ;)
# petermolnar yeah, that's not a portfolio :P :)
# sknebel petermolnar: I guess you get in the generic "we ran an X-size thing for Y years and achieved Z goal" category - which tbh isn't necessarily uncommon in dev. I.e. there's a bunch of stuff that's impressive, but I can neither show a result (its deep embedded code) nor name the customer (NDA)
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# [chrisaldrich] [Ana_Rodrigues] Ignoring those work contacts and posting material to your personal website sounds like the same pattern as samizdat...
# [chrisaldrich] What is academic samizdat?
# Loqi Academic samizdat is the act of publishing one's academic work on one's own website (generally making it freely available) while it also appears in a for-profit publication (functioning like a silo) which often charges an exorbitant rate for individual downloads of the same content https://indieweb.org/academic_samizdat
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# [Ana_Rodrigues] [chrisaldrich] sorry Chris, I don’t follow how it applies to me - but it’s likely that I was the one who didn’t explain myself correctly.
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# [chrisaldrich] Sorry work contracts... in relation to your comment here: https://chat.indieweb.org/2020-08-28#t1598633532085100
# Loqi [[Ana_Rodrigues]] Yeah, petermolnar, it would (I think). Yeah all my work contracts also said that “all code written belongs to us” and… i kinda … ignored that? 😳
# [chrisaldrich] Many academics do a lot of "free" work and then give away their most valuable writing to journals and publishers where they no longer own them, but they do it in return for the "reach" they get by publishing in those places. (Sound familiar?)
# [chrisaldrich] It's become an increased practice for academics to publish some of their work on their (usually university) websites, a practice generally called academic samizdat.
# [Ana_Rodrigues] Ahhh gotcha! The word “contacts” got me confused and I thought you were talking about the other domain I owned.
# [chrisaldrich] I remember A List Apart had an embargo period of 2 months (?) before I could publish my article on my own website. Does Smashing have something similar, or could you publish your post simultaneously on your own website [Ana_Rodrigues]?
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[tantek] and apparently it's a borrowed Russian word: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samizdat
# [chrisaldrich] Yes, definitely borrowed from Russia. Just not as widely used in English yet, so it feels more jargon-y than a word like intelligentsia which is also of Russian origin.
# [Ana_Rodrigues] Re: smashing, we actually didn’t discuss that. But I will check - my assumption is that they “own” it because it was an exchange of service?
# [Ana_Rodrigues] Yeah, while my current work doesn’t do that (and encourages us to do our own thing), my previous contracts mentioned that. I never heard of any company following through those contract things (to people I know or myself).
# [Ana_Rodrigues] But i’ve found at least three websites that already copied it completely and pasted it as if I wrote there 🤷
# [chrisaldrich] A List Apart pays a small amount for articles, but is still pretty open about allowing authors to own their content. If Smashing doesn't have a specific policy you should encourage them to allow you to cross post it to your site (perhaps with a rel="canonical" link back to them).
# [Ana_Rodrigues] Thanks Chris! I will have a look!
# [chrisaldrich] If you wanted to, then this would potentially allow you to crosspost to social media and get copies of the responses back via webmention.
# [chrisaldrich] I've always wanted a workflow for publishers like that to both accept webmentions to the original but for them to send salmentions back to the original author so they could be aware of some of the reach and responses to their work over time.
# [chrisaldrich] What is Journalism?
# Loqi Indieweb for Journalism is the application of Indieweb principles to one's personal site with a particular emphasis on use cases for journalists, photographers, editors, related bloggers and platforms which are publishing their work https://indieweb.org/journalism
# [chrisaldrich] There should be some rough outlines and examples on that page ^^.
# [chrisaldrich] Just because a journalist publishes to another publication shouldn't necessarily mean that they lose all control over the digital data surrounding it. Why couldn't/shouldn't they have some control over it the way they potentially could on an IndieWeb friendly site?
# [chrisaldrich] For journalists that can't POSSE or PESSOS their work, they can/should publish it to their site privately to own the copy. My friend Ben at the LA Times built a tool http://www.savemy.news/ for helping journalists to archive their content against site shut downs.
# [chrisaldrich] Naturally non-journalists could use it as an archive solution as well...
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# [Ana_Rodrigues] Yeah - I will update you when I get more info.
# [Ana_Rodrigues] That website is really neat btw
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# Loqi [indienews] New post: "Incremental progress" https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/3876-Incremental-progress
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# [chrisaldrich] fluffy++ for that awesome post!
# petermolnar re fluffy's article: > requires that people own their own domain name - well, that's a deep, and actually much bigger problem: nobody owns a domain. We're all renting them.
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# petermolnar next up, aaronpk, the Nihilist :P :D
# petermolnar I don't publish articles that are tied to my phone number though
# petermolnar unlike with my domain
# petermolnar why?
# petermolnar I wasn't the one bringing those up
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# petermolnar anyhow, I do find it uncomfortable that the web doesn't have the notion of "freehold" only ever leasehold over anything (IP addresses, domains, ctlds, etc)
# petermolnar well of course not
# petermolnar I'd simply love to see any progress around that, given DNS is not a new thing at all
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# petermolnar saying that it's not important is not nice, [tantek]. For many reasons, historical experiences being one, making it sure that one owns something could be very important.
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[fluffy] I don’t particularly see domains as a long-term identifier, they’re just one of many possible things. Per a different IndieWeb-focused ramble I posted a while ago I feel like we should all continue to understand that things change. http://beesbuzz.biz/articles/10425-Changes
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# [fluffy] Like, most people would be absolutely happy with an electric car for the vast majority of their driving, but because of the *potential* for wanting to do a roadtrip without supercharger access they don’t buy them. Or they get confused by certain bad-faith arguments regarding total environmental impact regarding the batteries.
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# [fluffy] I also get very frustrated by people assuming that this group of people is a steady state, like I saw some criticism based on photos of the participants in the very first IndieWebCamps (which I touched on in my article), and also there’s the whole “name confusion” people that led people to think that the ind.ie code of conduct WAS our code of conduct.
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[manton] For domain names, I wish I could just include domain name registration/renewal in all paid Micro.blog subscriptions. But domain name pricing varies so widely, seems just more confusing than anything. Could be $10/year or $100/year. So there would need to be a giant asterisk, kind of ruining the idea.
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# petermolnar suddenly envisions .indie, which would make everyone one the internet really confused about ind.ie, indieweb web.indie and the rest
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