#indieweb 2020-09-22
2020-09-22 UTC
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[LewisCowles] I'm not sure there is ill intent in not interpreting things in that way if it is not explicitly stated.
# [LewisCowles] An extra You or Your in the right place, could help it to become possessive and help to make it clear.
# [LewisCowles] own your data is an IndieWeb principle with two key parts: 1) your data lives primarily on your own domain, and 2) you maintain usable access to it, for you over time https://indieweb.org/own_your_data
# [LewisCowles] is that any clearer petermolnar?
# [LewisCowles] feels like it needs more comma's. Is it written this way for Loqi?
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jeremycherfas What is own your data?
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Loqi own your data is an IndieWeb principle with two key parts: 1) your data lives primarily under your own domain, and 2) you are able to reach and maintain it over time https://indieweb.org/own_your_data
# jeremycherfas Any better, [LewiisCowles]?
# jeremycherfas Ooops. Any better, [LewisCowles]?
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# [James_Gallaghe] I think using “retain” makes “over time” redundant.
# jeremycherfas I understand that you might choose not to maintain your data such that it would deteriorate and become less useful over time. But then what was the meaning of tantek's point about "maintain[ing] usable access for you"?
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# jeremycherfas So your point, that maintenance is not a quality of ownership, we agree on. I'll edit and try again.
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# jeremycherfas Done
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# Loqi own your data is an IndieWeb principle with two key parts: 1) your data lives primarily under your own domain, and 2) you are able to retain your access over time https://indieweb.org/own_your_data
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petermolnar that is the basis if my problem with it as well; the domain, in my opinion, is the freedom/ownership of publishing (including revoking access for the public), but owning data has little to do with the URL. I know I'm contradicting the current tenets; this is why I haven't challenged it before, but recently it came up multiple times that step 1 of indieweb is to have a domain, whereas I still firmly believe that step 1 is to have a home
# petermolnar page.
# petermolnar (Especially because domains are rented property, which still makes me itch, but that is for another time.)
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# jeremycherfas Even if it is a rented domain on squarespace or WP.com?
# jeremycherfas Ok, i'm open to you narrowing down homepage.
# petermolnar my opinion again: any place where it's possible to own the data, as in take it away and spin it up somewhere else. So not squarespace, but yes WP.com.
# jeremycherfas If you are peter.wordpress.com, you can do that? (I've only ever self-hosted.)
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# jeremycherfas In that case, own your data isn't even restricted to the internet.
# jeremycherfas I own the data in my bread recipe notebook.
# [snarfed] examples: i have reasonable access to the data in https://snarfed.tumblr.com/ , i can export it, etc. but i can’t migrate it to wordpress if i choose, so i don’t have the domain under my control
# [snarfed] likewise, i could redirect https://snarfed.org/ to my facebook profile, and then later to my twitter profile, but my access to the data in both is…iffy
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Zegnat I feel this may also be going into identity vs data. If a URL is your identity (as we often say in indieweb context) you want to own the domain, or have some other great form of trust in whoever owns the domain you are on, to make sure you keep control of your identity. But that is a separate question from data itself.
# jeremycherfas I used to have a tumblr. Then I lost my password and despite jumping through all their stupid hoops, I never regained access. I guess it is still there, but I have stopped trying. Did I own that data?
# jeremycherfas It might be better to think of own your identity rather than own your data.
# jeremycherfas Tumblr offers an export, no? Is it useless?
# petermolnar it's not useless; I believe self hosted wordpress can import it
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jacky so I'm reading http://blog.bellebcooper.com/leaving-microblog.html
# jeremycherfas I think people have repurposed on Known too.
# jacky and this part is interesting: "Manton says owning your domain so you can move your content without breaking URLs is owning your content, whereas I believe if your content still lives on someone else's server, and requires them to run the server and run their code so you can access your content, it's not really yours at all, as they could remove your access at any time. "
# petermolnar the whole thing started because /own-your-data says own the domain and be able to retain access
# jeremycherfas I think there's an element of being reliant on someone else in the story. That is where full backups in non-proprietary formats becomes important.
# [snarfed] common indie[web] misconception that you have to do it all yourself. that’s impossible. even if it’s served on your own computer in your own home, you depend on your ISP, electric utility, etc. not to mention your server’s OS, hardware, etc. no one is an island, and we welcome people doing all levels of self- and non-self- hosting. domain and data access are the two keys.
# petermolnar > or even your own physical server in a datacenter - mainframe in the basement with broadband, satellite, and 4g uplinks. Maybe.
# jeremycherfas zegnat++
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# jeremycherfas The number of layers also creates the problem for Loqi and the wiki of attempting to encapsulate everything that might be germane in a single definitional sentence
# jeremycherfas GWG and [chrisaldrich]
# jeremycherfas Or you and Jeena
# Zegnat I would just love to hear how different people would describe that principle :) From long-time IndieWebbers like [snarfed] and aaronpk, all the way to platform providers like [manton] and maybe people who have more recently started speaking/writing about IndieWeb like [Ana_Rodrigues]. (To namedrop people at random.)
# petermolnar raw herring?
# jeremycherfas Too early
# jeremycherfas Goulash?
# petermolnar \o/ (I'll back off with the offtopic)
# jeremycherfas I could go for that zegnat
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# Jeena1 Zegnat you always can do jitsi meetings and record them, you could call those people and let them talk and explain for 5-10 minutes and then create a coherent flow from it through editing of audio/video, I'd watch it :D
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# Jeena1 Oh, interesting, what do you do in Gothenburg?
# sknebel also an interesting blog post I saw on HN last night (different topic): https://rubenerd.com/why-arent-you-more-serious/
# Jeena1 Ok cool, although I'm mostly working from home nowadays because of covid 19. And I'm going to South Korea for 3 months for an assignment, my first time as an agile coach, will be interesting.
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# [Ana_Rodrigues] Hello! Here’s what’s on my mind and it isn’t really useful:
# [Ana_Rodrigues] I understand everything people said so far. You can go as granular as you want in this whole topic because you said, it has layers.
# [Ana_Rodrigues] The other thing is: I am really picky to what I save and then make public. So I am not a good example of “owning your data”. However, I am the one who sets the value of “the data” that is out there that I was an author of. So to me, my blog/personal website is what I allow people to see and everything else is probably in a hard drive in a drawer or lost.
# [Ana_Rodrigues] When I first got to know about the IndieWeb and learned about the things folks built around the principles, I saw it as a way to have a “second” copy of certain things I do online and having them public (by choice). It is really silly, but I never once considered having a copy “of my tweets” on my blog and it kinda blew my mind that actually, nobody was stopping me?! 😂
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# [snarfed] there’s a wide range of how far into quantified self people here are, from basically zero (like me: https://snarfed.org/2013-09-24_the-unquantified-self ) to very high (like aaronpk). all ok! quantified self is related but not the same as indieweb
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# [Ana_Rodrigues] there’s another weird thing that is a tangent but… maybe not. My experience with social media relies heavily on privacy settings. For a variety of reasons, sometimes I make my twitter or instagram suddenly private. It’s a strange and fake way to feel “in control”. I still haven’t figured out how to do that on my personal website if I need that.
# [Ana_Rodrigues] so… yeah… it isn’t straightforward for me to have a copy of certain social medias on my website.
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[schmarty] [Ana_Rodrigues] ++ thanks for sharing and great insights! i have some similar feelings. "owning my data" often means having copies of things i do on other sites but _not_ republishing it on my own site publicly
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# [snarfed] [Ana_Rodrigues] a quick and dirty first step toward keeping those posts on your site is to make them private to just you. that way, you still have them, in the usual format on your site, and you don’t have to worry about anyone else seeing them. you can then play with expanding that access if you want
# [snarfed] some great experiments along those “expanding” lines: https://indieweb.org/unlisted
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# [LewisCowles] Well this was more interesting than commercial work for the day or dweb
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# lahacker an .onion is forever
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[jgmac1106] Having my students reflect on the quantified self right now in class as part of their unselfie projects
# [jgmac1106] Using post @snarfed
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# [jgmac1106] This is Course.. Fits right in https://edu106.jgregorymcverry.com/pages/about-yourself
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jamietanna[m] Quite a fun satirical take on social media documentaries https://twitter.com/RachelWenitsky/status/1308479842573332480
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@RachelWenitsky A former tech employee in a documentary about why social media is bad (social media is bad) https://twitter.com/RachelWenitsky/status/1308479842573332480/video/1 (twitter.com/_/status/1308479842573332480)
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[manton] On the ownership discussion, I’ve long thought that the domain name is the critical part, so that is what Micro.blog focuses on: making it easy to blog and have a domain name for your content, so that the URLs are portable. To underscore this, just ask yourself if you’d rather have a domain name or rather have self-hosting at someone else’s domain name.
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[chrisaldrich] What is the YAS button?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "YAS button" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "YAS button is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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