#indieweb 2020-11-19
2020-11-19 UTC
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Implementing IndieAuth for Datasette" https://simonwillison.net/2020/Nov/18/indieauth/ (from https://aaronparecki.com/2020/11/18/22/)
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maxwelljoslyn HWC Americas under way :) https://events.indieweb.org/2020/11/homebrew-website-club-the-americas-HyXEHpaZYazW
# maxwelljoslyn HWC Americas under way :) https://events.indieweb.org/2020/11/homebrew-website-club-the-americas-HyXEHpaZYazW
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# alex11 https://xkcd.com/927/
# Loqi [XKCD] Standards https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png
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[chrisaldrich] What is "Do it for the exposure?"
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Do it for the exposure" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Do it for the exposure is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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# alex11 https://xkcd.com/148/ just to infuriate everyone
# Loqi [XKCD] Mispronouncing https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/mispronouncing.png
# alex11 something i was going to mention wrt. sci-hub is that especially with that it's nice that it's open access because science is the most useful thing from a societal perspective compared to other forms of 'piracy'; and also the thing with 'piracy' (or sharing of material if you want to avoid that loaded term) is that it's really the distributors who dislike it or are most against it, not necessarily creators
# alex11 there's something cory doctorow mentioned, i forget where exactly, might've been the aaron swartz documentary, that a 14 year old came up with a cure for a form of pancreatic cancer due to something they read on sci-hub
# alex11 in many 'creation fields' so to speak (music, books, etc) the publishers/distributors are corrupt and tend to abuse the creators far more than file sharers ever could
# alex11 and that's certainly true of the scientific world, where after all the actual work is done, the copyrights are signed off to the journals and i've read that the scientists don't get compensated enough
# alex11 but of course it's become industry propaganda that if you download, you're necessarily stealing
# alex11 then the whole other thing that historically (https://questioncopyright.org/promise) the system of copyright was invented for distributors, and again not artists
# alex11 and now with the internet you obviously don't have distribution hurdles you might have had before
# alex11 it depends on the industry of course but it's certainly true the *record* industry doesn't believe in or rather their observed behavior shows that it's not really about protecting the artists when you enforce copyrights
# alex11 the whole thing ends up being a corrupt racket when you actually look at it
# alex11 and again i don't think it makes sense economically to enforce things like that even if they did have their interests at heart; it's more important for musicians to get exposure than anything
# alex11 and the old adage of musicians earning most of their money from touring/merchandise rather than album sales
# alex11 but yes i'm pretty sure no working scientist actually enjoys Elsavier
# alex11 but again like i alluded to in the call, note that (just my opinion) copying from others is good if it's for the good of society, but if you're just doing it without accreditation to make your already huge commercial money making site even bigger...
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# alex11 and it would just be an interesting question of regulation; just how much are you allow to copy/'borrow' from
# alex11 we already have antitrust law though it of course doesn't get applied in the UD
# alex11 UD*
# alex11 ugh
# alex11 US*
# DanC "i've read that the scientists don't get compensated enough" <- the scientists don't get compensated _at all_ for journal publications (except indirectly via reputation)
# DanC it's perverse: the academic institutions attract the talent, who produce the works. Then the rights are scooped up by the publishers who... then charge the academic institutions to access them!
# DanC at most, the publishers (a) attract journal editorial boards and (b) run a web site.
# DanC It's hard to believe university libraries couldn't run better web sites, but they don't seem to believe they could.
# DanC think about it: pool the subscription fees and just hire a dang web designer.
# DanC at least with Hollywood, the studios serve as risk aggregators. But I don't think academic publishers serve that role. Maybe a little... maybe the successful journals subsidize the obscure ones... but surely the .edu's are better positioned to do this than the .com publishers.
# DanC not only do scientists not get compensated for articles; they have to _pay_ open access publication fees. But that's actually a pretty good model. They pass those costs onto their funders / employers. But that cost is paid once and then the readers all get access for free.
markopasha, irisisgay, [tantek], gpickett00, famubu[m], maxwelljoslyn, swentel, schmudde, jjuran, thelounge244787, gxt, shoesNsocks1, KempfCreative, astronavt, jeremych_, [Raphael_Luckom], [Aaron_Klemm], a_chou and [KevinMarks] joined the channel; nickodd left the channel
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[KevinMarks] Also, did anyone see this? http://discourse.wicg.io/t/proposal-content-aggregation-technology/4941
# [Raphael_Luckom] I got an email from youtube this morning that they're changing tos to allow them to put ads on videos that aren't part of their monetization program. It would be nice if something like this got them to back off that position too
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petermolnar imo -dev is literally code/standards/definitions/etc. All other thing could - should? - have a place here.
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Zegnat I would say there are lots of ways :) Talking about why you may want to do it. Talking about how you may want to use services, or may want to start to own more of the data. We can discuss https://indieweb.org/Getting_Started or domains.
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# [Raphael_Luckom] One thing I thought was really interesting was that when I suggested that there are some failure modes with Mastodon for communities-of-interest, [tantek] knew what I meant and could give examples. Those failure modes are only tangentially related to _how_ to publish on the web--in that they concern human factors of how a community evolves. So if we agree that indieweb-the-idea (ItI) _should not_ get conflated with indieweb-the-community
# [Raphael_Luckom] (ItC) (leaving aside questions of how best to do that), there's another step we can take. In my ceramicist example, that person is looking for the ceramics community within ItI, but it might not exist yet. The ItC position on that would (I think) be "start that community by using the building blocks available." So far so good. But what if that ceramicist asks a further question: "Ok, that makes sense and I'll put in the effort to do that.
# [Raphael_Luckom] resources that ItC hosts?
# [Raphael_Luckom] Are there any examples of how _non-technical_ communities have made the transition onto the indieweb such that they're successfully self-hosting without belonging to ItC?" Like is there a dimension of social knowledge--including for instance what tantek knows about the hazards of certain system designs--that covers the interpersonal aspects of how people form and maintain communities of interest? Would those topics fall within the kinds of
# Zegnat That is very hard to say, [Raphael_Luckom]. Because there can be entire ItI clusters out there that have not communicated with ItC. Or even ItC's that have not communicated with the particular ItC you are chatting in now. (I still do not know who did all those Korean translations of the IndieWeb wiki, Asia seems to have their own ItC's that are not this ItC.)
# [Raphael_Luckom] also want to say I really appreciate being able to have this conversation, I'm getting lots of interesting things to consider.
# Zegnat https://indieweb.org/principles does not include microformats. It does include "Have fun". Would be my wikified answer, nolith ;)
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# Zegnat nolith: that sounds like phrasing worth thinking about. Yes, I would personally say they are already part of the indieweb. I also give some thought about how I would invite them. Because implementing building blocks for the sake of implementing them might not be a great start. If they are already super happy with their sites, why give them more work? I would invite them to have a look at what some sites can do by agreeing on small pieces
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# DanC the names [in brackets] are from some bridge, right? what clients are folks using? how are you connecting? I'm looking at https://indieweb.org/IRC ... not seeing it
# DanC ah... https://indieweb.org/discuss
# DanC is late for a meeting... ooops...
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# [Aaron_Klemm] I thought this was Slack native. Oops
# [Aaron_Klemm] yes, quite well
# [Aaron_Klemm] nolith: imo an independent (especially personal) website can be IndieWeb, perhaps IS IndieWeb, but I would tell anyone running one that if they want to have a dynamic experience across the web and preserve the freedom and technical ability to do so, then they should implement IndieWeb tools. And to do that lurking in these channels is a good start.
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# [Aaron_Klemm] Got it
# [Aaron_Klemm] makes sense. I used "implement" loosely and wrong
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# [KevinMarks] Also, rather than saying that they need webmention or microformats, lead with the benefits of them. Do you want to receive comments and likes? Do you want to send them? The answer may be no.
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# alex11 facebook has a patent on shadow bans apparently
# [Raphael_Luckom] granted that is a stupid patent to issue, but are they using it to mess with anyone? I worry less about facebook having that patent than an anonymous patent troll with no reputation to protect.
# alex11 haven't heard of anything
# alex11 also eh... 'reputation to protect'
# alex11 it's facebook
# alex11 they'll do what they wantg
# alex11 want*
# [Raphael_Luckom] Just because they don't have morals doesn't mean I won't take advantage of when their interests align with mine. Zuck gave money to Diaspora precisely _because_ he wanted to look like he favored competition. I'll count on that kind of self-interestedly nice behavior from them until the cows come home.
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# petermolnar re stories: yesterday I came across an indieweb critic entry from a former active community member at https://gopher.floodgap.com/gopher/gw?ascraeus.org/0/phlog/041.txt . Among the lines there's this: "When a new feature is added to one of the corporates, say polls on twitter, or instagram's private stories, then the indieweb people set about replicating that feature on their own sites."
# petermolnar It resonates with one of my thoughts as well: many silo solutions are shitty. We all know that. Why bother trying to replicate it? You want an ephemeral post, make an ephemeral post by setting it to auto delete. It's been present long before "stories", and it serves a very similar function. Why does one wants silo functionalities on their site?
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[schmarty] i'd also draw a distinction between silos _popularizing_ a feature and silos _inventing_ a feature
# [schmarty] stories maaaaybe has an argument that it was distilled from brutal market-testing for maximum engagement
# [schmarty] but, like, i built tools to do mobile photo posting for me and my friends back before instagram existed and before any social network at the time supported it
# petermolnar (to be clear: I'm not saying I agree with the criticism, just that it resonates with thoughts)
# [schmarty] i think it is worth reversing this sentiment, though: "Almost every one of those "types" is essentially a replication of the offerings of the various Corporate Silos"
# [schmarty] to call this a criticism is to say that replicating any feature that also appears on a corporate silo is a misfeature
# [schmarty] i agree with some of these criticisms ! but i don't agree with the way this piece seems to move freely between criticizing and attributing particular things (the generations model) "the indieweb movement" as a singular entity or practice, specific people aaronpk/tantek/snarfed, and things outside the scope of what indieweb is trying to solve (putting things on the internet costs money)
# [schmarty] good call
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@helenhousandi You know, I was thinking that WordPress 5.6 could really use that “one more thing”... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnNdiLaW8AYiat7.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1329509671183544324)
# [chrisaldrich] With respect to the ethics portion, this was precisely one of the reasons I twisted David Dylan Thomas' arm to come talk to IndieWebCamp East on Saturday about design and our biases: https://indieweb.org/2020/East/Schedule#Keynotes
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