#indieweb 2021-01-20
2021-01-20 UTC
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[KevinMarks] Indieweb founder Amber Case has a Mozilla Fellowship to look into funding this year https://www.mozillapulse.org/profile/4392
wagle, sivoais, pengolod, Nuve, sp1ff, ShadowKyogre, [tantek], alex11, [schmarty], a_chou, [chrisaldrich], gbmor1, [jeremycherfas], kensp, swentel, Javi, kensp1, swentel__, schmudde, rhiaro, anotheryou, andersju, hasslon, KartikPrabhu, gpickett00, [KevinMarks] and markopasha joined the channel; khanate left the channel
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jeremycherfas Good morning gwg
# jeremycherfas So so. Snowed under with work, and I have noone to blame but myself. Took my eye of a deadline for too long.
# jeremycherfas You?
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# jeremycherfas Nice to fix things. My CMS just got a point update, but I am hanging back because there seem to be all sorts of issues coming up.
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chiragdi Forgive my ignorance, but what does it mean "X gives voice to Y"?
# sknebel oh, you mean as a chat status message in here? that's a flag in irc (which various channels use for different purposes), which here is done for user names the bot recognizes as being listed on /chat-names in the wiki
# chiragdi oh interesting. Thanks!
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Loqi Chat names is a list of chat regulars sorted by nickname, with their website and usual timezone(s) https://indieweb.org/chat-names
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[kimberlyhirsh] Looks great, GWG
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# chiragdi Anybody here use any self-hosted social platforms with any measure of success?
# [Raphael_Luckom] There are a number of people who use fediverse platforms as part of their online presence, or at least interact with them. Is there something in particular that interests you?
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# chiragdi I guess what I define as success is: Setting up a private community including friends and family that people regularly use and enjoy
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# [Raphael_Luckom] this person wrote notes about that: https://runyourown.social/
# chiragdi interesting, thanks
# chiragdi I'm very fluent with the tech involved and how to do administration. What I'm unsure of is whether or not it's worth the attempt as far as getting people on board
# chiragdi it looks like this site addresses that to some degree
# [Raphael_Luckom] yeah, I like those notes because of how it focuses on the social aspects
# chiragdi I'm also interested if anybody knows of any success stories
# [Raphael_Luckom] besides the friendcamp example described in that post?
# chiragdi the more examples the better
# Loqi follow is a common feature (and often UI button) in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") https://indieweb.org/follow
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[tantek] added myself as a "text example" (new section. If anyone else is posting or has posted simple text "follow(ed|ing)" posts, please feel free to add your earliest such post! https://indieweb.org/follow#Text_examples
# [Raphael_Luckom] The last time I asked why we don't see _more_ successful fediverse communities, [tantek] mentioned that one reason is the burden on the admin. That friction is also noted in the link above--I think the author says 2 hours / week of admin tasks for a fork of mastodon. I'm curious about what that time is spent on, like what specific admin tasks are there that need attention every week.
# [Raphael_Luckom] On the social side, I can definitely see some labor in what the author describes as "having to play the host" on the site--responding to questions and requests, moderating, etc. I would describe that type of work as "social support." Does that make sense as a category? Does it cover most of the day-to-day burden of the admin? Are there other significant categories of that work?
# Loqi admin tax is all the time you spend maintaining your personal site, rather than actually using it (like to create posts) https://indieweb.org/admintax
# [tantek] [Raphael_Luckom] yes those are some of the challenges / burdens. More in ^ and please feel free to add more of your thoughts / questions like you just said in chat to /admintax#Brainstorming. Let's capture those and expand upon them as a community
# chiragdi One issue I see with creating a viable friends-and-family-sphere is lack of good native mobile support
# [Raphael_Luckom] strongly agree. For myself, I've been experimenting with using a personal slack org to fill that gap--I can write slack integrations that provide features similar to a native app experience. But it's not nice enough for me to want to give my friends. And I don't want to build reliance on slack that way.
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KartikPrabhu why is "native" a criterion? is a webapp i.e. a website not good enough
# chiragdi I agree. But, ever tried to sell your friends and family on a browser based mobile solution? It doesn't tend to stick
# [Raphael_Luckom] I think that's a really good question because I can't quite answer it. Maybe because of direct access to device features like storage?
# KartikPrabhu [Raphael_Luckom]: you can access storage on the web also
# KartikPrabhu "upload picture" is the same on the web as for native apps
# [Raphael_Luckom] contact lists, etc
# KartikPrabhu if it is a site only for "invited" people then I am not sure why one needs access to contact lists
# [Raphael_Luckom] i haven't done mobile development so I'm just kinda throwing out ideas. I know that I _feel_ like a native app is nicer to use somehow, but I can't really define why
# KartikPrabhu also possible for web sites now aaronpk
# KartikPrabhu <shurg> I don't think I am going to win the "it is nicer" argument
# [Raphael_Luckom] I like these answers because they suggest an experiment--I could try to go through with this, make a web app that can be bookmarked on the home screen, and see if that solves my "feeling."
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stevestreza home screen icons and bookmarks have always been a tough sell on mobile, you need UI callout popovers and it's a multi step process, and even with all that you're still going to lose a lot of people
# [Raphael_Luckom] it could work, and it would be great if it does, because I wouldn't have to learn mobile frameworks
# KartikPrabhu stevestreza: how is that any different from popovers which tell you install the app? or "go to the app store and find this app and install it"?
# stevestreza users have at least been well trained by the platforms to download from the app store/play store
# KartikPrabhu ok I guess we need an app for every website then. <goes off to work his own website as an app>
# KartikPrabhu yup ^
# [Raphael_Luckom] I'm definitely on board with "try out a home-screen webapp first, and only do native if there's a clear blocking issue"
# KartikPrabhu I would remove all apps I use if they had a nice website that works on phones instead of constantly prompting me to use their app
# KartikPrabhu not sure. but yes this comes up all the time. adactio rails against this constantly
# stevestreza I dont know why that was taken as "you need a native app"
# [Raphael_Luckom] doesn't "this comes up all the time" mean that, in practice, there is significant disagreement within the community and it's not settled one way or the other?
# [tantek] stevestreza, it was stated here: https://chat.indieweb.org/2021-01-20/1611166051577300
# KartikPrabhu also if you start with "lets build a mobile app" you are setting a very complicated goal
# KartikPrabhu liek going to the moon without building a bicycle first
# chiragdi I think one big advantage native has is Push notifications. That being said, the web is capable of that, but getting them implemented seems to be an afterthought in many projects
# chiragdi Even with Mastodon, they have a mobile app. But the debate about how to handle notifications without using "evil" services or draining a battery is a tough one
# [Raphael_Luckom] I think it makes sense to say that FAQs are not evidence of disagreement. I would also say that writing down an answer to an FAQ, and pointing every new person to it, is not evidence of agreement.
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# [KevinMarks] I use the web versions of twitter and Instagram on android
# chiragdi [tantek]: Yeah, I agree with the calm computing thing. But again, the issue is onboarding people you love without having to get into high-minded behavioral questions. Most users are unfortunately not interested in the debate. They just want to know when you message them without checking their phone every 2 minutes
# chiragdi but, that being said, maybe the pitch should be more of a high minded one: Get away from the dopamine button and join a secure private network that cares about you
# chiragdi also, at a certain point, I think that lack of Push notifications is not a design choice that these projects consistently make because of the mental health implications. This functionality is usually just omitted because it's complicated
# chiragdi and nerds like us are happy to do without
# [Raphael_Luckom] Thanks all for some very interesting ideas!
# KartikPrabhu chiragdi: is building a web app simpler than building Push notifications?
# KartikPrabhu *native app
# chiragdi there are simpler aspects to it
# stevestreza The privacy aspect is underappreciated about web apps, native apps have opportunities to track you in the background that are more restricted in web apps, and web apps can request fewer global permissions
# chiragdi if the question is effort level of building native vs web, it might be a wash as far as complexity
# chiragdi on the web, however, you have the ability to distribute your code and have people host it pretty easily. Lowers the bar for entry
# chiragdi a native app really has to be associated with an organization or a developer who has to publish it through a specific channel
# chiragdi That's something worth looking into (probably just for myself at least). Are there popular native apps on the play store or apple store with a ton of contributors?
# chiragdi one way or another, though, the mobile clients to the more popular self-hosted web apps tend to be a much-neglected feature of the whole self-hosted community ethos
# Loqi A social reader is a modern interactive reader that allows you to directly respond to posts (with a like, comment, etc) right there inline with posts as you read them (as people do in social media), in contrast to legacy feed readers which were one-way read-only experiences and provided no mechanisms to interact with or respond to posts https://indieweb.org/social_reader
# stevestreza WordPress is open source and has 130 contributors on iOS
# chiragdi stevestreza: good point. but the WP native app is just an administrative interface, right?
# chiragdi [tantek]: thanks! I'll look into that. sounds cool
# stevestreza chiragdi: no, it can be used as a reader as well
# chiragdi stevestreza: Iiiinteresting. Installing it again to have a look. I'd only ever used it to admin my own site
# stevestreza there is definitely a company driving the ship on it but it has a bunch of OSS contributions (disclaimer: i used to work for one of their acquired companies)
# chiragdi Yeah, I like the polish on it. Exploring the reader functionality right now
# chiragdi We have lots of fediverse apps out there, many of which speak a small subset of protocols. It would be cool if there were a more concerted effort to build a polished reader for the fediverse. (looking into social reader rn, btw)
# [Raphael_Luckom] one extremely useful feature that a reader could provide (doesn't matter whether native or webapp) would be to manage credentials for connected communities / websites. We were talking a few days ago about how "friends-only posts" at different levels of granularity are an open area of development. Readers are in a very good position to help out there.
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# [snarfed] [Raphael_Luckom] https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/push-notifications/
# chiragdi [tantek]: Thanks for the karma btw. I didn't even know that was a thing. How do I see people's karma?
# chiragdi [snarfed]: Yeah, and interestingly most web browsers support push notifications from websites
# chiragdi My wife somehow ends up agreeing to receive them all the time from her online shopping sites
# chiragdi but hey, there's a great example of a completely web based app that people don't mind spending all day on: shopping sites
# chiragdi it must just come down to how you pitch the experience
# chiragdi [tantek]++
# chiragdi does <username> ++ add a karma?
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# KartikPrabhu yes
# KartikPrabhu !karma KartikPrabhu
# KartikPrabhu chiragdi: you can see the karma-value as above ^
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# reed speaking of social readers... how do you add sources to Indiegenous? I'm very confused by the UI and even after reading the wiki I don't understand how to use it to read (I know how to post)
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[schmarty] reed: indigenous is an example of a Microsub-based reader. it's a client-only app that requires a Microsub server to handle subscribing and updating feeds.
# [schmarty] there are some example servers listed here: https://indieweb.org/Microsub#Servers
# reed ah! so I need to add my sources to aperture for example?
# chiragdi Good news people. I took a walk and got some clarity. I think the fundamental problem with onboarding lay people like friends and family is one that the whole open-source culture suffers from:
# chiragdi We've got all the programmers we can handle. We need to recruit more designers
# chiragdi and UX people
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petermolnar we need an un-arguable, sellable marketing for them. The rest is tech solution for a people problem.
# chiragdi right, exactly. People's brains are conditioned to respond to strong marketing at this point. Not necessarily un-arguable reason
# chiragdi You could fight that, but you'll lose to the deep pockets with marketing departments. Is there a way to leverage the free time of the good-hearted designers out there to collaborate on fresh looks for friendica and the like?
# chiragdi if you had half as many people collaborating on an open-source UX design document for a project like friendica, the army of programmers out there would be more than happy to implement it
# chiragdi that right there would get me over half-way to onboarding friends and family simply because a lot of people don't go further than "It's ugly" or "it's hard to use"
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# [snarfed] another example is starting with/preferring https://indieweb.org/unlisted , since it doesn’t need any onboarding, before https://indieweb.org/private_posts , which do
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# chiragdi [snarfed]: So you're saying the traditional route is post to FB via my own platform using a bridge, but include a link back to my app. That type of thing? So curious users will trickle back to the source of the post?
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# chiragdi [snarfed]++ I love it. That gets me started and halfway there. I think if I can get the other half of the way there it will be because the design shortage is resolved, or I have better luck than I'm expecting. But the POSSE document is a great starting point
# chiragdi Is the topic of design improvement strategies within the scope of this channel? Because I think that could be a fascinating thread to pull on
# [tantek]1 chiragdi, sort of. From the perspective of wanting to express yourself on your personal site yes. However all the techniques for implementing design improvements are more likely a #indieweb-dev conversation
# chiragdi specifically, I mean strategies for overcoming the shortage of design within this niche of open-source software
# chiragdi ah ok
# chiragdi thanks
# [tantek]1 In general OSS discussions tend to be more on topic for #indieweb-dev yes. Because, I forget who said so, typical users don't actually care about anything in particular being OSS or not
# chiragdi right. The logistics of beefing up the design manpower is a question of development I suppose. I do think it's also a question of culture
# [tantek]1 we've got a reasonably good focus in terms of the culture (which is a good #indieweb-meta topic), see for example
# [tantek]1 what are principles
# Loqi The IndieWeb Community is largely based on principles (AKA tenets) such as own your data, scratch your own itches, build tools for yourself, selfdogfood, document your stuff, open source your stuff, UX design is more important than protocols, visible data for humans first and machines second, platform agnostic platforms, plurality over monoculture, longevity, and remember to have fun! https://indieweb.org/principles
# [tantek]1 ^ # 7 in particular
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# chiragdi [tantek]1: look at that. You guys are 10 steps ahead of me already
# chiragdi thanks for filling me in. I just stumbled across this community today, so I haven't had a chance to grok all the documentation
# [tantek]1 no worries chiragdi! the community has made a lot of progress over the years, and there is even more progress to be made. keep asking great questions! and welcome 🙂
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