#indieweb 2021-09-10

2021-09-10 UTC
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[chrisaldrich]1
Anyone do progress bars on their sites or in syndicated copies? How do you do it?
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@year_progress
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░░░░ 69%
(twitter.com/_/status/1436071931703332871)
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[chrisaldrich]1
HTML output for these could be a cool use case for a micropub client.
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[chrisaldrich]1
What is progress?
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Loqi
spinner is an animated image that typically shows a rotating motion indicating that a page is doing something like loading something via JS or otherwise busy trying to make progress on something https://indieweb.org/progress
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[chrisaldrich]1
That might be better defined as progress with spinner as a sub-category in this framing... hmmm....
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[snarfed]
[chrisaldrich] http://huffduff-video.snarfed.org/ does a pretty cool progress bar, pure HTML afaik. [KevinMarks] did it, I still don't really understand it
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[chrisaldrich]1
Thanks [snarfed], that's a good example. Makes me think I'm on track with some of my own markup. Ex: https://boffosocko.com/2021/01/28/55786051/ I hadn't thought about having a visual indicator for syndicated copies to places like Twitter though.
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Loqi
[Chris Aldrich] Finished through chapter 17 53%53% done; loc 1026 of 1943
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[KevinMarks]
You could make an inline svg fairly easily too, but likely that won't syndicate to twitter either.
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capjamesg[d]
Can anyone remember what Facebook's "poke" feature was for? It just came to mind.
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Murray[d]
Poking 😄 It was effectively a contentless notification, like a wave IRL
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Murray[d]
(of course it was also used maliciously to spam people, either in jest or as aggression)
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capjamesg[d]
What is poking?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "poking" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "poking is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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capjamesg[d]
Want to try your hand at a definition Murray?
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Murray[d]
I'm not sure how useful a dedicated page would be? I guess if anyone has implemented it/similar functionality on their own site, then maybe, otherwise maybe better as a subsection somewhere?
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Murray[d]
(do any silos even use similar functionality these days?)
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capjamesg[d]
I just meant for a definition.
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capjamesg[d]
But you are right because the content would probably be thin.
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aaronpk
What is relevant to the IndieWeb wiki?
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Loqi
Anything directly related to people with their own websites, such as technologies and services used, design and UX, formats and protocols, as well as events or podcasts are relevant to the IndieWeb wiki. https://indieweb.org/relevant_to_the_IndieWeb_wiki
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kevinmarksbot
Are pokes phatic?
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[KevinMarks]
o_O they can be
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npd[m]
I think "poke" was a forerunner to "yo" or "gm"
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npd[m]
and I think there's a pretty interesting social satisfaction to these low-semantic-content personal check-ins
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Murray[d]
never heard of those, what are "yo" and "gm"?
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npd[m]
Yo, from 2014, let users send just the word "yo" to each other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_%28app%29
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[snarfed]
started to send the obligatory https://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/19402879/CommunicationProtocols but it's down 😢 [tantek] what's the status of your pbwiki?
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[snarfed]
or the higher production value https://nohello.net/
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npd[m]
gm was a short-lived iOS app for sending good morning messages (the text "gm"): https://gm.town/
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Murray[d]
thanks, I can see why these passed me by, but interesting that it's popped up a few times
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[chrisaldrich]1
What is Yo?
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Loqi
Yo is a mobile app for sending your contacts the text "Yo" https://indieweb.org/Yo
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[chrisaldrich]1
No IndieWeb implementations yet....
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[chrisaldrich]1
Anecdotally, I've noticed some tummelling community members use questions like "What's everyone working on today?" instead of simply "hello".
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[chrisaldrich]1
kevinmarksbot, have you implemented a parser that uses `p-phatic-of` yet?
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capjamesg[d]
Anyone want me to send them a "Yo" webmention? 😄
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[fluffy]
u-yo-of
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Loqi
[indienews] New post: "Indieweb vs. Fediverse" https://beesbuzz.biz/blog/12455-Indieweb-vs-Fediverse
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Loqi
[fluffy] has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (31 in all channels)
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aaronpk
😂 [fluffy]++
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[fluffy]
I might have opinions
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[snarfed]
🔥 well done
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[chrisaldrich]1
[KevinMarks]++ for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYsMtroVLeA to "help understand how these social science concepts can apply to the computer science worlds that we're building and make sure that it's not just another synthetic world that exists on its own terms but actually bridges back to human connections"
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[chrisaldrich]1
capjamesg, the first step in working towards properly displaying a "yo" is receiving one. Send away. 🙂 Perhaps https://indieweb.org/person_mention may help too?
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[tantek]
snarfed, pbworks subdomains have misconfigured certs 😕 try the http: version
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[tantek]
what is poking
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Loqi
Poke (or alternately tap, nudge, hi, hello, ping, wink, flirt, pat, wave, etc.) is a feature on a few silos and messaging networks that's a silly method of attempting to get someone's attention, annoy them, or say "I'm thinking about you", typically in an attempt to start an actual conversation https://indieweb.org/poking
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[tantek]
capjamesg[d] ^. Also Murray[d], [KevinMarks], npd[m], feel free to add your observations above to the page. I feel like someone half-jokingly suggested using webmentions to make an indieweb equivalent
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Loqi
[gRegor Morrill] Poked: Chris Aldrich
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[snarfed]
thanks [tantek], and sorry! agreed, user error, misread the browser message
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[tantek]
snarfed, nah, I blame the browser errors regarding certs for being insufferably cryptic (no pun intended 😛 )
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[tantek]
snarfed to answer your other question, personal wiki pages are a longstanding pain point for me for sure. Every once in a while I make some progress on storage / display / UX.
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[snarfed]
it wasn't a cert error, it was a normal "couldn't connect over HTTPS," due to me having firefox's auto HTTPS upgrade on
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[snarfed]
yup understood. i haven't contributed much to the gardens vs streams conversations, but I really really like having a site that lets me regularly update some posts and treat them as evergreen wiki pages, while keeping the authoring experience the same
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[snarfed]
(...as normal posts)
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[snarfed]
sounds like you've tried that a bit too?
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[tantek]
not really no. my thinking about "wiki" pages is quite divergent from how I think of posts
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[tantek]
though maybe my approaches will eventually converge
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[tantek]
more details than that would be better for #indieweb-dev 🙂
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[snarfed]
sure! and agreed, I thought of them very differently too, but at least for single-author wiki pages, it turned out that very similar display and authoring worked out great for me
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[snarfed]
(very similar to posts)
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[tantek]
agree re: single-author wiki pages being similar, although for me, the "evergreen" part means easily browsable history as well
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[tantek]
(trying to keep this chat here non-dev as long as I can 🙂 )
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[snarfed]
definitely! history would be nice, that's one part I haven't exposed to display. but arguably you could expose it for posts too, at least if they have history, right? or you could hide it. as long as you have some way to distinguish pages from posts, you can do some simple display (and maybe authoring) customizations per type
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[snarfed]
eg on my site, the one display difference is that posts have a date in the URL, pages don't
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[snarfed]
(ok and posts show up in feeds, pages don't)
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[tantek]
my experience with posts is that they have much less history, and their history is much less relevant (mostly typos or other fixes). any more significant change is usually worth a new post
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[tantek]
so it's ok that history of posts isn't easily browseable, because it's typically boring and not really informative of anything
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[snarfed]
agreed!
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[tantek]
whereas with "evergreen" topic pages, history becomes much more relevant / significant, especially over time, thus should be browsable by default
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[snarfed]
some people argue that that history is still worth exposing, for transparency, but each site owner gets to choose for themselves
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[snarfed]
I'm actually not sure how valuable history of my evergreen pages would be to the average reader. I definitely take your point though
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[snarfed]
maybe a small minority would use it
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[tantek]
meh, that kind of completionism (post history is still worth exposing) is not particularly user-relevant, and usually a waste of time compared to other more user-relevant features.
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[snarfed]
it's definitely reader relevant in journalism
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[snarfed]
agreed, they're different than personal sites, but I couldn't really explain the difference crisply, other than charter I guess
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[snarfed]
anyway. tangent from evergreen pages
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[snarfed]
maybe more importantly, if you use the same plumbing for evergreen pages on your site as for posts, and you build history display for pages, you'd get it for free on posts, so the reason to hide it would be UX, not dev cost
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capjamesg[d]
tantek The page on poking made me laugh.
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capjamesg[d]
I am really tempted to send a poke now:
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[tantek]
snarfed, agreed about journalism, which then gets into the gray areas between journalist articles and blog posts 😬
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[tantek]
snarfed, one of the challenges of history is granularity. do you keep history only on explicit "save" actions like (most) wikis? or do you keep history of every keystroke like Etherpad? or somewhere in between?
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[tantek]
^ good example of why a "completionist" methodology about a history feature would likely waste a lot of time designing/building things that typical use-cases don't (ever) need
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[tantek]
there's viewing a list of revisions, then do you also have the UI to compare revisions, revert to a previous revision, collapse revisions etc.
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[snarfed]
my site is pretty stock Wordpress, as usual, which autosaves more or less per keypress, but those are ephemeral. persistent versions (which could then be displayed) are only when the user explicitly saves
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[snarfed]
and yes, revision UI, comparison, reverting is all doable, but by default only for site owners/admins. I haven't looked into plugins to show those to users, but I'm confident they exist
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[tantek]
or the Etherpad style time-slider
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[snarfed]
yup. plugin ecosystems are nice for enabling experimentation like that
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[tantek]
sorta. depending on which of those user-features you want, and which you want to be efficient, you may want different plumbing / implementation choices
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[snarfed]
right! hence plugin choice per site
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[tantek]
no, deeper than that. the plugins are mostly about different UX. how you store the revisions can behave very differently depending on which features you use the most / want to be fast etc.
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[tantek]
which is now getting into developer considerations
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[snarfed]
oh no, wordpress plugins are not just different UX, they can get deep into plumbing and data model
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[tantek]
it's unlikely that they'd alter how post revisions are stored, otherwise I'm expecting a lot of chances of conflicts between plugins and subsequent data loss
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[snarfed]
oh true, but it's pretty easy for them to add onto it, and/or do things in parallel
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[snarfed]
which some plugins definitely do
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[snarfed]
having run a personal site for a long time on CMSes both with and without big plugin ecosystems, I can say I vastly prefer the latter, at least as someone who _doesn't_ want to spend a ton of time implementing their site itself
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[snarfed]
but let a thousand flowers bloom etc!
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[snarfed]
(er sorry the former. i prefer the big ecosystem)
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[tantek]
indeed, I think that's what motivated [benatwork] to build-in plugin support for idno/Known from the start
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[chrisaldrich]1
is a bit embarrassed to discover that I've sent an IndieWeb /poke in the past. 😳
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[KevinMarks]
Having your static site in github gives you a history by default (and allows pull requests)
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[tantek]
not the easiest thing to backup / compare (which of these backups is the right / most recent one?)
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[tantek]
the nice thing about text files is that there are lots of tools to compare them and show differences
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[KevinMarks]
Sure, but the text files being in git is a standard way of storing history
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[tantek]
nevermind complexities of branching history vs linear history
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[tantek]
not a very user-friendly one
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capjamesg[d]
Very true.
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[fluffy]
history-by-default and PR support are big parts of why I designed Publ the way I did, too
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[KevinMarks]
It is a big flaw with database backed things.
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[KevinMarks]
Rollback is ephemeral
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[fluffy]
it doesn’t require git-based storage but it definitely benefits from it
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[fluffy]
previously I used Movable Type which had all of the fun database fragility issues that are endemic to database-backed CMSes.
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Loqi
[KevinMarks], [fluffy]: it looks like this conversation is getting pretty technical (database), can you take it to #indieweb-dev?
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[tantek]
successfully ducked Loqi's admonishment 🙇‍♂️
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[fluffy]
I mean it’s a fair point
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