#indieweb 2021-10-11

2021-10-11 UTC
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hendursaga Murray[d]: it's not really a thing, I'm afraid :(
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Murray[d] that's a shame, it's a useful service, especially as it moves people away from Facebook. Still, glad it's working here 🙂
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[tantek] hendursaga, Murray[d], there's likely still things we can learn from their UX
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petermolnar "A physical book of IRC quotes we had professionally printed and bound many years ago is, ironically, likely to outlive whatever bit-rotting homepage we once built to make permanent the same quotes online." https://www.datagubbe.se/fleeting/
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petermolnar why << https://www.datagubbe.se/fleeting/
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.datagubbe.se/fleeting/" to the "See Also" section of /why https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=77366&oldid=76681
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[snarfed] "However Camp 4 is also a walk-in camp. You need to haul everything on your back. That immediately filters out a lot of wannabes." https://kk.org/thetechnium/scenius-or-comm/ ...reminds me of the small bits of builder-first gatekeeping we have, eg requiring IndieAuth to edit the wiki
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[Ed_Beck] ↩️ I joined this slack last week. The auto-join channels are #indieweb #indieweb-meta and #indieweb-dev. Hopping in the middle of those conversations is intimidating.
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[Ed_Beck] I’ve been looking at the directions to getting started sideways for a week. I think I’ve set up my h-card and formats but I’m still not exactly sure why.
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capjamesg[d] Welcome!
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capjamesg[d] Good question re: microformats!
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Loqi hey [Ed_Beck], capjamesg[d], it seems like this conversation is more appropriate for #indieweb-dev (Microformats)
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capjamesg[d] I’ll follow up with this in the dev channel 😅
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capjamesg[d] I keep triggering Loqi.
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[tantek] snarfed, requiring your own site and that you spend the time to set it up is less gatekeeping (which usually implies a particular gatekeeper actor), and more “proof of positive investment”
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[tantek] It has been VERY effective for keeping out spam and drive by trolling/griefing, none of which have positive intent
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capjamesg[d] People can still join the chat and get help from us. And then join the wiki later.
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[snarfed] there's definitely still a gatekeeping actor here, right? the indieweb community, or more specifically the wiki admin(s)
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[snarfed] I do get the broad negative connotations of the term "gatekeeping." there's plenty of useful accepted gatekeeping in the world, eg drivers' licenses, tickets for events, etc...but if we decide that the term itself is negative and we want a different one, ok with me
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[Ed_Beck] It took me 2-3 tries to get indieauth going correctly.
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[Ed_Beck] So I agree with sentiment. I also get not wanting people who can’t get it going to be able to modify your help docs.
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[tantek] More than help docs, the home page and most of the site
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[tantek] Very few communities if any are open to “anyone” having that degree of editing trust for something they can setup without asking anyone for permission
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[tantek] Snarfed, I’d disagree again, the examples you gave, driver’s licenses, tickets for events, all require explicitly asking a gatekeeper for permission
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[tantek] Look at the long list of T&Cs you have to agree to before you can buy a ticket to anything
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GWG [Ed_Beck]: What was the problem with setting up IndieAuth, out of curiosity?
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[Ed_Beck] honestly, I was using wordpress to build my site
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[Ed_Beck] so I already had links to facebook, twitter, etc
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GWG [Ed_Beck]: If you need help, step into our WordPress room. Also, you don't need to link to Facebook or Twitter at all, WordPress has an indieauth plugin. Just install and go
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[Ed_Beck] and I was trying to modify those to have rel=me
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GWG rel-me is if you want Indieauth.com to do it for you
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[Ed_Beck] right, that’s what I eventually did
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GWG [Ed_Beck]: Which document steered you toward rel-me, out of curiosity?
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GWG I might want to see if we can adjust it. It may date from when that was the most common option
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[Ed_Beck] https://indielogin.com/setup
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Loqi How to Set Up Your Website for IndieLogin.com
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[snarfed] [tantek] right! my point wasn't that those examples had no gatekeeper, my point was that they're positive (ie net good), not negative, just like ours
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[snarfed] anyway. just semantics. language is important, but i don't feel strongly about this one, just saw an interest parallel in that article
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[Ed_Beck] I started at the website > tried to login > and ended up at the Indielogin.com/setup page
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aaronpk [Ed_Beck]: aha that is helpful thanks! I will rearrange that page to move the "Your IndieAuth Server" on top! the rel-me stuff should be the fallback option if your website isn't already an indieauth server
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GWG aaronpk: I was just about to open an issue
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GWG aaronpk: Can you also link to a list of IndieAuth projects?
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GWG Let me correct myself
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GWG Can you emphasize there is a list on the Indieauth page you link to
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aaronpk yep
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GWG aaronpk: What is your ultimate plan for Indieauth.com? Do you know how many people would be impacted if you discontinued it at some point?
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aaronpk eventually i want to run a similar service to it that makes it more obvious you're signing up for a service that someone else is running, whereas right now i feel like that is kind of confusing
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GWG I think the education on IndieAuth has really improved, but we still find people who can't separate the service from the thing.
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GWG Which is the downside of making such good reference implementations
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aaronpk alright https://indielogin.com/setup is updated, hopefully that makes it cleare
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aaronpk r
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Loqi How to Set Up Your Website for IndieLogin.com
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capjamesg[d] aaronpk it’s easy to name projects after their purpose haha.
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capjamesg[d] All of my IndieWeb stuff is literally named after the spec I am implementing
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capjamesg[d] I could have come up with a better name for my webmention receiver than “webmention receiver” 🤦
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GWG capjamesg[d]: That's literally what my implementation is called
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Loqi friendly reminder capjamesg[d], GWG, would you mind moving this conversation (spec, implementation) to #indieweb-dev? thanks!
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capjamesg[d] I am glad I am not the only one!
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aaronpk naming things is hard
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GWG I just took a page from pfefferle. All of his plugins for WordPress are named after the thing they do
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aaronpk i think it's more okay when it's a wordpress plugin since you're already in the context of wordpress in that case
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capjamesg[d] Naming things is indeed hard.
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capjamesg[d] The upside is that naming things after their purpose may make them a tad more discoverable.
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capjamesg[d] I probably need to document my projects on the wiki now I think about it. I can’t wait to add “Micropub” as the name of my server and client 🤦
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[tantek] Login is a barrier, IndieAuth a very specifically engineered one.
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[tantek] snarfed, yes language matters. It sounds like maybe an unintended conflation of “barrier” and “gatekeeping”, when the latter is a subset of the former
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GWG So, is reducing friction a good or a bad goal in this context?
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[tantek] it's neither, it's a tool you can use to achieve *actual goals*
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[tantek] that's like asking is adopting standard XYZ a good or bad goal
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[tantek] GWG, go back to, what's the *user* action or actions you are trying to enable (or prevent!)
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GWG In this context, making it easier for people to follow how to participate
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GWG I agree with you they still should have to do something.
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aaronpk participate != edit the wiki
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aaronpk it's why for example you can join the chat in any number of ways, some of which don't require accounts anywhere
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GWG Agred on that statement.
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GWG I just hate when people end up trying to do something, and end up confused
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[tantek] I'm actually very grateful when people end up trying to do something *harmful* and end up confused
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[tantek] GWG, preventing/minimizing harm in many ways is much more important to creating a safe & productive community than helping everyone do everything they can possibly think of or feel like
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[tantek] safe & welcoming & productive
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GWG I think we achieve that, for the most part, don't we?
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[tantek] GWG, how would you measure it?
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[tantek] (because no, I think we still have work to do)
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[tantek] go re-read tracydurnell's blog post on inclusion
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GWG We'll always have work to do.
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[tantek] yes that's also true
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GWG We could be safer, more welcoming, and more productive though.
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[tantek] also it is correct to *not* be welcoming to those whose intentions are harmful directly to others or the community, or indirectly such as entitled "do everything my way", or "hey you're doing everything wrong let me teach you" type folks.
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[tantek] it's not the community's job to be those folks's therapists
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[tantek] (I speak to this from personal experience in the #microformats community and in the W3C)
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GWG Not suggesting we welcome people who don't want to be part of our community.
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GWG The community stands for something. People may question what that is, but if you fundamentally disagree with it, why would you want to be in it except to agitate?
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[tantek] "don't want to be part of our community" is not the point, they do, they just either don't care about others in the community, or only care that others follow them and their opinions
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GWG That sort of behavior scares people away
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aaronpk Since Loqi isn't smart enough to recognize it, this seems more like a conversation for #indieweb-meta
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[tantek] True
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paul1 Is it correct, that indielogin.com redeems codes with a get request?
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paul1 Because that's what my logs say, so I'm confused.
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[chrisaldrich] When the popular press are posting headlines like this as evergreen articles, it's an possible indicator that you've got a problem. https://www.wired.com/story/how-to-delete-your-facebook-account/
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[tantek] what is deletefacebook
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Loqi DeleteFacebook is a popular hashtag on Twitter (#DeleteFacebook) used by people to proclaim when they leave Facebook (to varying degrees), an encouragement for others to leave as well, and on a 2021 Time Magazine cover as Delete “Facebook” https://indieweb.org/DeleteFacebook
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[tantek] DeleteFacebook << 2021-10-11 WIRED: [https://www.wired.com/story/how-to-delete-your-facebook-account/ How to Permanently Delete Your Facebook Account] / If you've finally hit your breaking point, here's how to say goodbye to Mark Zuckerberg's empire.
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Loqi ok, I added "2021-10-11 WIRED: [https://www.wired.com/story/how-to-delete-your-facebook-account/ How to Permanently Delete Your Facebook Account] / If you've finally hit your breaking point, here's how to say goodbye to Mark Zuckerberg's empire." to the "See Also" section of /DeleteFacebook https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=77371&oldid=77304
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