#indieweb 2021-10-26

2021-10-26 UTC
nertzy, edburns[d], kimberlyhirsh[d], nertzy_ and jeremycherfas joined the channel
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[tantek] wow this is an amazing analysis and set of insights regarding /publics and /audiences https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/10/fix-facebook-making-it-more-like-google/620456/
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[tantek] limited access posts may actually be healthier
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aaronpk I like it
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[tantek] I figured you would, it has a lot of implications for better /reader experiences! Also jacky, [fluffy], and [KevinMarks] likely have informed opinions on this
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[fluffy] I don’t know about informed, but I definitely have a gut instinct I’ve been building towards
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[fluffy] particularly needing a private space where I can share stuff with folks without it necessarily being a giant public sounding board
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[fluffy] informed primarily by my experiences with having a stalkerly manager in 2004-2005 and, to a lesser extent, needing somewhere I could talk about family things without my family seeing it
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[tantek] Similarly, having a place where I can chat/post without it being “automatically” seen by folks at work (or adjacent) is something I’ve wanted. And I kind of have sorta with Strava and Swarm
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[tantek] And IG close-friends-only stories have been a place to post about things to a much smaller limited set of folks
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[KevinMarks] The flickr default options of friends/family/everyone was a good first pass without as much maintenance as circles
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Ruxton they put a lot of thought into getting there too, it wasnt random
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[tantek] KevinMarks, oddly enough, the Flickr friends/family/everyone was too coarse to fit my mental model, or perhaps it wasn't obvious "enough" how to use it to feel "safer"
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[tantek] if anyone has a .as domain, add yourself: https://indieweb.org/ccTLD#as
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neonace Does anyone remember the name of those old services where people could comment directly on sites. They were 3rd party, like, the site owner didn't even need to be aware people were using them?
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[KevinMarks] there is one every few years
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[KevinMarks] genius, hypothesis, google sidewiki
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neonace OK, yeah, I remember them from long long ago. Thanks
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[KevinMarks] there are older ones, let me think
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[tantek] what is annotation?
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Loqi Annotations are comments (including marginalia), highlights or any other interactions that add to (part of) a post, typically added by individuals other than the author https://indieweb.org/annotation
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[KevinMarks] third voice was the one I was trying to remember https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Voice
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[tantek] ^ neonace bunch of services and more information listed there
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[tantek] [KevinMarks] can you add Third Voice to /annotation?
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neonace Thanks for the link, tantek. Also, that Third Voice service rings all of the bells for me.
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[chrisaldrich] That /annotation page has a link to a google spreadsheet with several dozen services neonace.
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[chrisaldrich] On the bl**ping out one's (others') work, I seem to recall someone adding a filter to their comments to create cLOwN cAsE in comic sans that is a similar UI pattern.
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[chrisaldrich] personal-domain << https://domain.garden/, a search tool maintained by [https://peterhagen.dev/ Peter Hagen], for aid in coming up with clever domain names with pricing and links to multiple providers
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Loqi ok, I added "https://domain.garden/, a search tool maintained by [https://peterhagen.dev/ Peter Hagen], for aid in coming up with clever domain names with pricing and links to multiple providers" to the "See Also" section of /personal-domain https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=77607&oldid=76007
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[fluffy] Publ allows you to make your permissions groups as complicated as you want/need. I only have two standard groups, “friends” and “followers,” and I also occasionally put specific people in on specific entries.
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[fluffy] I never used Flickr's permission stuff but are friends and family disjoint or does one imply the other? There's a lot of assumptions that could be made which are often awful.
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[fluffy] Like usually the reason I share something with friends is because I DON’T want my family to see it.
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[fluffy] (Which is a way in which Facebook is very broken.)
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[tantek] [fluffy] that ambiguity in Flickr's UI is one of the reasons why I never invested much time in it, and I strongly agree with you about likelihood of awful assumptions
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[fluffy] Yeah. Family is not closer than friends.
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[fluffy] At least not for a lot of people.
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[tantek] yes. and different people can be "closer" on different topics!
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[tantek] there is no one "closer" hierarchy / order
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[tantek] [chrisaldrich] hadn't heard of Clown Case before though that makes sense. That treatment of comments sounds more like disemvowelment than bleeping
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capjamesg[d] I am reading this: https://invisibleup.com/articles/31/
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capjamesg[d] I’d recommend reading it too.
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capjamesg[d] It’s a long piece and I am not done yet but I have been so impressed thus far.
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capjamesg[d] I found it on the wiki 😉
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[tantek] More on the topic of "maybe not broadcast by default": https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html
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capjamesg[d] Is it worth joining Mastodon?
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capjamesg[d] I realise that is an open ended question. It has been on my mind a few days and seeing as how some people here use it I thought I’d ask.
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capjamesg[d] What is mastodon?
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Loqi Mastodon is an open source social network project that supports some IndieWeb building blocks like microformats2 & rel-me, and has a federation of many instances, including https://indieweb.social/ for IndieWeb fans https://indieweb.org/Mastodon
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aaronpk IMO it is better to use your website than to make a new account
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aaronpk luckily bridgy is here to help you with that!
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[tantek] capjamesg[d], depends what you mean by "joining Mastodon"
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[tantek] that in itself is worth unpacking as a question
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aaronpk (internet archive link for that post which is not paywalled https://web.archive.org/web/20210217191136/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/magazine/how-one-stupid-tweet-ruined-justine-saccos-life.html
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capjamesg[d] Indeed! I think Bridgy Fed was what made me think more about Mastodon.
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[tantek] what is it about "joining Mastodon" in particular that resonated? (e.g. in contrast to, adding ActivityPub support to your site, or "joining The Fediverse"?
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[tantek] )
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capjamesg[d] I thought ActivityPub was difficult to implement.
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Loqi [tantek], capjamesg[d]: it looks like this conversation is getting pretty technical (ActivityPub, implement), can you take it to #indieweb-dev?
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capjamesg[d] Eek. Very true.
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[tantek] the differing audiences/publics thing also has a sad/unfortunate example in the article re:"the dongle joke" which was clearly meant as hyperlocal (couple of people at a conference), was overheard, and then broadcast by a third party. end result was misery for both the person making the joke and the broadcaster (including losing their jobs).
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[tantek] seems like when there's a difference in perception about how "public" a post or utterance is, there's potential for really bad misinterpretation and consequences
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[tantek] both people in that scenario had very different expectations for what "public" they were in. a conversation with the person in the next seat, which happened to be at a conference, vs. a joke told out loud at a conference, which happened to be intended only for a seat neighbor
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[tantek] another idea for post authoring tools, detect sarcasm in a public post and warn the author that on the internet sarcasm is likely to be misintepreted
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aaronpk good thing sarcasm is so easy for a computer to detect
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[tantek] I see what you did there 🙂
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[tantek] would be a fun Turing test alternative
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[tantek] another suggestion for post authoring tools, detect when you’re about to post something publicly (and likely POSSE tweet) minutes before you get on a (long) flight, and ask if you’re sure you want to post that before the flight, or save it as a draft and queue it up for posting after you land?
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[tantek] your site has enough info to do that aaronpk, since it knows your flights 🙂
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aaronpk haha true
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[chrisaldrich] some context for these sorts of publics conversations: https://www.vox.com/2018/7/6/17537656/plane-bae-privacy-explained
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[chrisaldrich] I wasn't sure how tO dEsCRibE tHIs SoRT of THinG, and clown case seemed apt. I'll figure out where I saw the example eventually...
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[chrisaldrich] Here it is: https://www.zachleat.com/web/snarky/ and Zach used the word "clown" in his post as well... 🙂 🤡
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[chrisaldrich] makes me wonder if eleventy has an A.P.I. for the snark detection?
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[tantek] Facebook << Criticism: 2021-10-22 NBC News: [https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/facebook-knew-radicalized-users-rcna3581 ‘Carol’s Journey’: What Facebook knew about how it radicalized users] / Internal documents suggest Facebook has long known its algorithms and recommendation systems push some users to extremes.
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Loqi ok, I added "Criticism: 2021-10-22 NBC News: [https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/facebook-knew-radicalized-users-rcna3581 ‘Carol’s Journey’: What Facebook knew about how it radicalized users] / Internal documents suggest Facebook has long known its algorithms and recommendation systems push some users to extremes." to the "See Also" section of /Facebook https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=77611&oldid=77596
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[tantek] ^ that preview image tho
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[tantek] Facebook << ^ <blockquote>Though Smith had never expressed interest in conspiracy theories, in just two days Facebook was recommending she join groups dedicated to QAnon […]</blockquote>
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Loqi ok, I added "^ <blockquote>Though Smith had never expressed interest in conspiracy theories, in just two days Facebook was recommending she join groups dedicated to QAnon […]</blockquote>" to the "See Also" section of /Facebook https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=77612&oldid=77611