#indieweb 2021-12-30
2021-12-30 UTC
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[tantek] Tumblr << Criticism: very long list of tags which will block your posts from their iOS app, and note of a workaround: adding a "." (period) will bypass the block (for now 2021-363) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YG7E84Dvs2PyoKMgSgZFgEX0Kh0RtJqsazZsyVGY8dk/mobilebasic (see also: https://techcrunch.com/2021/12/29/tumblr-ios-tags-ban-apple/ https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/28/22856734/tumblr-censor-tags-ios-apple-guidelines)
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Loqi ok, I added "Criticism: very long list of tags which will block your posts from their iOS app, and note of a workaround: adding a "." (period) will bypass the block (for now 2021-363) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YG7E84Dvs2PyoKMgSgZFgEX0Kh0RtJqsazZsyVGY8dk/mobilebasic (see also: https://techcrunch.com/2021/12/29/tumblr-ios-tags-ban-apple/ https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/28/22856734/tumblr-censor-tags-ios-apple-guidelines)" to the "See Also" section of /Tumblr https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78793&oldid=78685
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# [tantek] I mean wow. "about" is banned but not "meta". "acid" is but not "base". "DOM" but not "HTML" nor "Javascript". "body" but not "head". "sub" but not "sup" nor "sandwich". "big" but not "small". "thigh" but not "leg" nor "wing". "razor" but not "blade". "obey" but not "disobey". "edge" but not "vertex". "back" but not "front". "high" but not "low". "hot" but not "cold". "wet" but not "dry". "cut" is banned but not "paste".
# [tantek] isn't the endgame here for fanfic (and other) communities to repurpose alt right (in ban list) or "conservative" terms as euphemisms, achieving either dismantling through mockery, or causing bans of those terms to collateral damage banning of "conservative" posts, thus provoking an / expanding the outcry about "conservatives" being banned, thus causing questioning of the banning tags approach in the first place?
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stevestreza Tumblr users tend not to be interested in banning of terms as much as people (aka "ban the nazis and bots")
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edgeduchess[d] [tantek]: yes, it's all my tumblr dashboard has been talking about for days
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# edgeduchess[d] as I said, the signals that tumblr's public is ripe for owning their own blogs continue
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petermolnar > And they aren't there to post meaningful content, they're there to reblog weird memes
# petermolnar This. So far every single tumblr user who posts meaningful content seemed to have off-tumblr pages as well (artstation, own page, etc), though some are using tumblr with their own domain, which is an incredibly bad choice imo.
# petermolnar the tragedy of tumblr is it's unique way of commenting-with-a-reblog
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@SaraSoueidan If you're making 2022 resolutions, let "Publish my content on my own site" be one of them? And "Provide an RSS feed for my blog/content" be another? I feel much more inclined to share links to articles on personal blogs than those published on large publications. (twitter.com/_/status/1476435509849300992)
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# petermolnar re tumblr: I'm not sure if in this case tumblr had a choice, so the real problem is either the content itself on the platform, or Apple for requiring such filtering.
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# zerojames[d] Does anyone keep a private archive for their bookmarks / likes / whatever with stored HTML?
# zerojames[d] Or, rather, stored full text?
# zerojames[d] I was thinking this would be an interesting use case for testing the search index I am working on.
# zerojames[d] But wondered if there is prior art to look at.
# zerojames[d] I haven’t used a hosted bookmark service so I wonder how their searches work.
# zerojames[d] What is a bookmark?
# Loqi A bookmark (or linkblog) is a post that is primarily comprised of a URL, often title text from that URL, sometimes optional text describing, tagging, or quoting from its contents https://indieweb.org/bookmark
# zblesk[m] What is IndieWeb?
# Loqi The IndieWeb is a community of individual personal websites, connected by simple standards, based on the principles of owning your domain, using it as your primary identity, to publish on your own site (optionally syndicate elsewhere), and own your data https://indieweb.org/IndieWeb
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# stevestreza petermolnar: it was a little bit of both, apple tightening the screws on tumblr for years, and the nature of ad-based businesses being liable to who pays the bills and those people not wanting their ads next to anything that might be nsfw
# stevestreza people not understanding how software works is not at all unique to tumblr :)
# edgeduchess[d] [fluffy]: all the indieweb evangelism i've seen, as well as the mastodon evangelism i've seen, has generally been low quality and ignoring most of the reasons people use tumblr for and the type of public they are
# edgeduchess[d] "tumblr users don't want to maintain their own technical stuff" as is their right, that's not the public they are
# edgeduchess[d] it doesn't mean that they can't be onboarded in a ecosystem that uses open protocols
# edgeduchess[d] it's not true though
# edgeduchess[d] they aren't happy
# edgeduchess[d] pillowfort sucks ass but people went there cause they aren't happy
# edgeduchess[d] so many tumblr users moved to twitter and bemoan it
# edgeduchess[d] *dreamwidth* is having a resurgence
# edgeduchess[d] pillowfort was made by someone who was straight out of a coding bootcamp, and totally ill managed
# edgeduchess[d] yeah, but people are going there cause they're *desperate*
# edgeduchess[d] it doesn't work for them
# edgeduchess[d] and there's the possibility of giving them a solution that actually does
# edgeduchess[d] DW is in maintainance mode because a) it's old-ass technology b) the owner is disabled and going through a lot of health stuff
# edgeduchess[d] it's bloated and cannot move at a pace that can sustain most of the tumblr public
# edgeduchess[d] but tumblr's public is not *happy*
# edgeduchess[d] it's supremely unhappy
# edgeduchess[d] and it's extremely displace
# edgeduchess[d] displaced
# edgeduchess[d] I talk with the tumblr public every day and i've had people say "at this point i'm ok yelling in the void i just want a blog that's mine"
# edgeduchess[d] are they going to self host it? not likely
# edgeduchess[d] i mean imagine not being a developer
# edgeduchess[d] have you tried looking at the state of getting into webdev? it scares and overwhelms people
# edgeduchess[d] no, they absolutely suck
# edgeduchess[d] no one likes them
# stevestreza people can say they "just want a blog" but if there's no way to get a firehose of content to them they are much less likely to stick around
# zerojames[d] +1 re getting into web dev.
# zerojames[d] I can only imagine that getting more complicated now that blockchain is here.
# edgeduchess[d] stevestreza: it's not a firehose of content, it's a *community*
# edgeduchess[d] it's very different
# edgeduchess[d] and you can onboard communities, if you're smart about it and plan
# edgeduchess[d] but a lot of it is "build it and they will come"
# zerojames[d] fluffy indeed. But if you are new to coding and hear about blockchain and NFTs and “web 3.0” it’s more noise.
# edgeduchess[d] most people that are into indie stuff are not great at product-building stuff, and it shows
# edgeduchess[d] but instead of getting better, we blame people we fail to serve
# stevestreza it's both, but the least important piece is the software engineering, as long as it is stable
# zerojames[d] I agree.
# zerojames[d] I think micro.blog is cool in this regard.
# edgeduchess[d] micro.blog is not going to appeal to a tumblr public ever
# edgeduchess[d] not with this homepage
# edgeduchess[d] vs
# edgeduchess[d] vs even
# zerojames[d] Indeed. Tumblr’s messaging is on point.
# zerojames[d] It abstracts away from any technicalities / semantics.
# edgeduchess[d] they need marketing
# edgeduchess[d] and they are marketing
# edgeduchess[d] they're just marketing to a different public
# stevestreza That tumblr home page has largely looked that way for like 6+ years too, because it works
# zerojames[d] Function / expression / community > plumbing.
# edgeduchess[d] there's no service based on open principle whose marketing appeals to tumblr people
# edgeduchess[d] and the ones that have been tried are just bad
# zerojames[d] Yeah. I am still largely confused by mastodon and don’t have an incentive to try it out further.
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[fluffy] plus, the Mastodon experience isn’t necessarily great. http://beesbuzz.biz/blog/12455-Indieweb-vs-Fediverse
# edgeduchess[d] mastodon is too confusing for people, and its UI is also bad for a tumblr public
# zerojames[d] Love that piece fluffy.
# edgeduchess[d] zerojames[d]: likewise, and if i am, imagine people
# zerojames[d] Yeah UI is a big deal. You can get the functions right but what matters is how people feel about using what you make.
# edgeduchess[d] yep
# edgeduchess[d] all of that
# edgeduchess[d] there is no good tumblr replacement out there
# stevestreza the thing edgeduchess[d] said about onboarding communities is spot on though
# edgeduchess[d] (I've been thinking about this exact problems for 2+ years now FWIW)
# edgeduchess[d] (like my backstory is specifically that when tumblr banned porn i decided to figure out how to get people something better, and while i've focused on online communities until now bc reasons, I've studied a lot the blogging side of things0
# edgeduchess[d] you just go fandom by fandom
# stevestreza no Tumblr's success was definitely not an accident, they found the niche and leaned into it and the communities behind it
# edgeduchess[d] you import networks, not the community
# edgeduchess[d] building on niches is how it's done
# edgeduchess[d] i think i did write about this
# edgeduchess[d] tumblr is so frustrating most people have moved to *discord* to escape it
# edgeduchess[d] that's a whole other thing
# edgeduchess[d] anyway, gotta run to therapy, will be back in a hour
# stevestreza tumblr invests (or at least invested when i was there) a ton into things like comic con and fashion week, which techies generally would consider a waste of time, because it's content for the niches they serve well
# stevestreza Yeah 2015-2020, not sure what that was
# stevestreza One thing that mastodon has succeeded at demonstrating is that instance hosting and management can be deferred to a handful of deeply technical sysadmins, and there ends up being a large community of people who benefit from that
# stevestreza Through not having to set up hosting or figuring out wtf DNS is
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# stevestreza It's still a mile of difference between the smooth and simple onboarding process at any reasonably run social network
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gRegor https://i.haza.website does the DNS stuff too, if you register a new domain through them (via name.com)
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# edgeduchess[d] stevestreza: yeah so my take on that is that you actually need to put it one level up
# edgeduchess[d] so for example boba is organized so that the software can be hosted and people can make communities on it
# edgeduchess[d] so rather than being like mastodon where if you want to make a community you need to find someone that can sysadmin it, the sysadmin part is on the platform manager and there can be multiple platforms ran by multiple people
# edgeduchess[d] because really most communities do not have *anyone* that wants to deal with the sysadmin part
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[KevinMarks] Hosted Known was a good on boarding, and a fairly tumblr like usage, but no reader
# edgeduchess[d] no reader you mean "no tumblr-like dashboard"?
# edgeduchess[d] yep
# edgeduchess[d] the dash experience is actually important
# edgeduchess[d] it doesn't even have to be the same software but it needs to feel seamless
# edgeduchess[d] So like my biggest hurdle with indieweb stuff, software aside is like
# edgeduchess[d] let's assume i set up everything
# edgeduchess[d] now what?
# edgeduchess[d] how do i follow people? tags?
# edgeduchess[d] in which topics is there actual movement?
# edgeduchess[d] how do I start finding a list of "friends"?
# edgeduchess[d] if I write a thing, and no one replies, it makes it way less likely i'll write something else
# zerojames[d] I have been thinking about how to merge my Micropub and Microsub experiences.
# edgeduchess[d] if there are good answers to this, they aren't immediately evident for me by looking into the space
# zerojames[d] I already send likes from my reader. I love the one-click interaction.
# edgeduchess[d] and i'm highly invested
# [fluffy] I feel like that’s a question with any new social platform though. Like typically you get into the platform because you know someone on it and want to follow them, and then you see their stuff and then you see when they refer to stuff posted by someone else, which gives you more folks to follow.
# zerojames[d] The fewer clicks it takes me to react / comment on something, the better.
# zerojames[d] That is a good call if we continue the discussion on implementation.
# edgeduchess[d] [fluffy]: partly yes, but not always
# edgeduchess[d] like even if i'd be ok with no network of my own, i woudln't know where to start to evaluate whether there is pre-existing action
# edgeduchess[d] and which shape it takes
# zerojames[d] With regard to following, this is definitely something I want to dive deeper into. My feed reader feels clunky and not very community driven because I haven’t quite figured out how to present information.
# edgeduchess[d] the feeling overall is that doing anything on a platform that's not social is shouting into the void with no hope of interaction
# edgeduchess[d] zerojames[d]: I would love to help with this stuff
# zerojames[d] To dev re: implementation. The rest of this is definitely for this channel 🙂
# edgeduchess[d] as I said, I think there's space for actual successful products in this space
# edgeduchess[d] which come with their own problems, but would help giving people a focus, a roadmap and the possibility of actually doing it long term
# edgeduchess[d] I would love help figuring out the technical side cause i'm fairly set on slowly building it up
# [KevinMarks] The aperture/monocle model is good but it has a lot of setup and the "finding feeds" part is still tricky
# stevestreza edgeduchess[d] by boba do you mean boba.network?
# petermolnar just yesterday we were talking here with Zegnat on how to get people to comment (not just on silos, anywhere). He mentioned that this might be a mindset issue, that people browsing content in "consume mode". So: is this, or is this not a problem on tumblr? If not, what might be different? Because the integration of reacting/commenting/posting is similar on many silo.
# edgeduchess[d] stevestreza: https://v0.boba.social/
# edgeduchess[d] beware NSFW and other stuff
# edgeduchess[d] the general product info is at: https://www.bobaboard.com/, that's the v0 community
# edgeduchess[d] [fluffy]: yes!!
# edgeduchess[d] petermolnar: whispertags are the way tumblr accidentally solved this, which is funnt
# edgeduchess[d] ugh can't find the paper on them quickly, i should probably write an article
# petermolnar what is whispertags
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "whispertags" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "whispertags is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# stevestreza the art on that product page is just… incredible for anyone who has been involved in fandom online spaces for more than a few years
# edgeduchess[d] let me get an example from boba
# edgeduchess[d] stevestreza: that's why one should build for the public they know, you can speak to them using their language in a way no big corp can ever emulate
# edgeduchess[d] the tags at the bottom are whispertags
# edgeduchess[d] tags that are used to chat, not as part of the post
# edgeduchess[d] people on tumblr add them to reblogs when they feel like what they have to say is not important enough to contribute to the conversation but still want to get their thoughts out
# edgeduchess[d] it's a lower pressure way to comment, and it works pretty well and part of what makes tumblr unique
# edgeduchess[d] some from a reblog of a post i made recently on tumblr:
# stevestreza not really, tags on tumblr are still searchable, and nobody ends up searching for the whisper tags
# petermolnar so... others add tags?
# edgeduchess[d] yeah what steve say
# edgeduchess[d] but also
# edgeduchess[d] i actually did solve this problem on boba by only making tags prefixed with # searchable
# petermolnar ok, can someone please define what "whisper tag" is?
# petermolnar seeing a UI isn't helping to be honest
# petermolnar edgeduchess[d]: define, with words, and text, please
# petermolnar what is wikify?
# Loqi wikifying is the practice of capturing information and ideas on the wiki https://indieweb.org/wikify
# petermolnar ^^^
# edgeduchess[d] edgeduchess[d]: this is the definition
# petermolnar a picture?
# edgeduchess[d] wait stuff might be getting lost in discord translation
# edgeduchess[d] let me just group the info together
# petermolnar what is whisper tag?
# Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "whisper tag" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "whisper tag is ____", a sentence describing the term)
# petermolnar now you can answer, saying "whisper tag is..." with a definition, and Loqi will record it in the wiki
# petermolnar then add the images as examples
# edgeduchess[d] whisper tags are tags that are used for chat rather than for categorization purposes, they originated on tumblr where people use them to comment on reblogs without polluting the original content. People also use them on their own posts to add side notes they feel provide context or add random thoughts. This is an example from bobaboard, which implements whispertags as an explicit type of tag:
# stevestreza whisper tag is text added to the footer of a post alongside traditional tags that is meant to be read as a form of creative writing expression connected to the post rather than as a tool for organization.
# petermolnar so basically it's attacing tags to the post from the comments
# edgeduchess[d] what steve said 😆
# edgeduchess[d] yes
# stevestreza and now it is here: https://indieweb.org/whisper_tag
# edgeduchess[d] people perceive comments as invasive, especially on tumblr where they stay attached to the post when it's further reblogged
# edgeduchess[d] or they think they have nothing important to say and add
# edgeduchess[d] whisper tags provide a layer of indirection
# petermolnar imo that is the close sibling of custom reacji
# edgeduchess[d] I think I've mentioned this before, but I know many people who did follow people on tumblr explicitly not because of their content, but because their whispertags were great
# Loqi ok, I added "[[Reacji]]" to a brand new "See Also" section of /whisper_tag https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=78816&oldid=78815
# petermolnar I still don't see how these are different from oneliner comments
# petermolnar #imfunnyyeah is still a comment
# edgeduchess[d] I'm not saying they're different, i'm saying that's the way tumblr did low-pressure comments
# zerojames[d] How did Loqi get that? Autocorrect on iOS is annoying this evening.
# petermolnar tumblr users
# stevestreza they are comments
# edgeduchess[d] yes, tumblr user, not tumblr
# edgeduchess[d] but yeah they are comments, and their properties that lower the barrier to commenting
# edgeduchess[d] which is why way more people "whisper tag" than actually directly comment
# edgeduchess[d] tumblr now has what? 3 ways of writing comments?
# edgeduchess[d] you can 1) reblog with a comment 2) whisper tag 3) actually reply
# stevestreza replies, reblogs with comments, whisper tags
# edgeduchess[d] not to mention askbox stuff
# stevestreza right
# edgeduchess[d] which is why everyone had xkit to read them
# edgeduchess[d] now they are integrated in the tumblr UI cause FINALLY tumblr woke up on this
# stevestreza not as many people use xkit as you think
# edgeduchess[d] i mean yes not as many people, but everyone in fandom 🙂
# petermolnar Why does something with a # lowers the bar compared to the same thing without it, when it's a "comment"?
# stevestreza the notes UI on the iOS app was one of my projects :)
# edgeduchess[d] i can't @ peter as far as I can tell, but it's because the person doesn't directly get notified on it
# edgeduchess[d] and also because it doesn't become part of the reblog chain
# edgeduchess[d] it's also not something they're *expected* to respond to
# edgeduchess[d] AND it doesn't matter whether the person thinks they have something valuable to add when they whispertag
# edgeduchess[d] when they comment they feel like they need to say *something* valuable
# petermolnar I see. So they do indeed serve the same purpose as custom reaction in, for example, slack
# edgeduchess[d] yeah, but they also serve different purposes
# edgeduchess[d] let me see if i can find a good example
# edgeduchess[d] https://bookworm-addict.tumblr.com/post/671397068925026304/i-read-your-features-and-deep-dive-on-ur-website ok look at this for example
# edgeduchess[d] this is a reblog on my post on some bobaboard features
# Loqi A social reader is a modern interactive reader that allows you to directly respond to posts (with a like, comment, etc) right there inline with posts as you read them (as people do in social media), in contrast to legacy feed readers which were one-way read-only experiences and provided no mechanisms to interact with or respond to posts https://indieweb.org/social_reader
# edgeduchess[d] if you look at the tag, they are musings on the utility of the feature and express how the person feels about it
# edgeduchess[d] could they have just reblogged with a comment? sure, but the social expectations are different
# edgeduchess[d] they're just "musing" not seeking conversation
# edgeduchess[d] though the expectation is that if I do want to turn it into a conversation, which i could, I;d copy their tags onto a reblog and comment on them
# petermolnar > they're just "musing" not seeking conversation - yeah, I see the lure of this, but personally I'm not on board with it. I *want* replies, I'm so tired of people adding funny reactions to posts.
# petermolnar because an action, no matter how small, will still eat the same energy away that could go into conversations (but this topic will soon become -chat)
# edgeduchess[d] that is true peter, but i think the two can coexist
# edgeduchess[d] FWIW people comment a lot on boba, because it's a better space for comments than tumblr
# edgeduchess[d] but they still whispertag too
# edgeduchess[d] they can all work together
# edgeduchess[d] it's just people do internet at different levels
# stevestreza Most people are passive consumers of content, some subset of them will be willing to do passive interaction (liking or adding an emoji reaction), some subset of those will actually engage in some sort of dialogue, and some subset of those will actively create content
# petermolnar "conserve your energy" is kinda part of my view on the worlds, but at I said, this is becoming offtopic.
# petermolnar stevestreza that is well worded.
# edgeduchess[d] [tantek]: is that an explicit action though? cause people wanting to mention without notifying is also a big thing
# edgeduchess[d] oh yeah for sure
# edgeduchess[d] but both actions can exist
# edgeduchess[d] oh there's a whole topic here about how tumblr turned fandom into a mess when they started word-searching posts
# edgeduchess[d] as opposed to just tags searching
# edgeduchess[d] "turned into a mess" = caused a spike in harassment and a worse experience for everyone
# edgeduchess[d] yeah that makes sense
# edgeduchess[d] i think different mechanisms are great cause they all come with different expectations
# edgeduchess[d] yeah i can see that
# edgeduchess[d] i plan to get around it in boba by having different levels of tags
# petermolnar [tantek]: do we have to say it 3 times? WordPress WordPress WordPress
# edgeduchess[d] so you can explicitly indicate what level of searchability you want (global/community/personal bookmark/content notice)
# petermolnar \o/ the summoning was successful
# edgeduchess[d] ooh brid.gy is interesting
# edgeduchess[d] i'm going to explore it
# 
Zegnat During most of my IRC use, I would always tab-complete usernames which often leads to the other person getting notifications or at least highlights. Now that I also use Discord, when I first did the same thing there (@username for tab completion) I got bombarded with custom emojis from people telling me to stop sending them notifications.
# edgeduchess[d] absolutely agree tantek
# edgeduchess[d] agree
# edgeduchess[d] i mean that's why one should decide which niche they want to focus on
# edgeduchess[d] if they want to build something successful
# edgeduchess[d] that's actually the first thing they tell you in any startup class/bootcamp
# edgeduchess[d] for how much that environment is antithetical to the type of goals i have, they do have a lot of wisdom on how to build stuff
# edgeduchess[d] yeah absolutely
# edgeduchess[d] it's really an easy error to fall into
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# edgeduchess[d] and it's why I do like the "build for yourself first" approach
# edgeduchess[d] but unless you *really* want to do it for yourself, I'd also think about it from the "build for people like you" perspective
# edgeduchess[d] the ones you understand best of all
# edgeduchess[d] I agree
# edgeduchess[d] I'll make a note for an article
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