#indieweb 2023-01-02

2023-01-02 UTC
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> That’s exciting!
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I want to try and write a bit more this year.
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[James_Van_Dyne] [Gregor] Yep. I recently integrated Strava importing into my site, so I’ve made a new visualization public visualization for my runs. https://jamesvandyne.com/runs/
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gRegor very cool!
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[0x3b0b] gRegor: I think I just added a config toggle for generating shorter permalinks a little while ago.
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[KevinMarks] Great case for indieweb photoblog https://exchgr.photography/fotoblog/rethinking-social-media-in-2023-a-new-home-for-my-photos-house-of-abundance-2022-07-23
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Loqi [preview] [Written By Elle Mundy] Rethinking Social Media in 2023: A New Home for my Photos // House of Abundance: Stoop Edition
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[tantek] thinking of attempting a 100days thing
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[tantek] what is 100days
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Loqi 💯 A 100 days project in the IndieWeb community is a challenge to do or make something and post about it on your own site every day for 100 days https://indieweb.org/100days
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> Hm.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> What are you thinking about [tantek]?
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[KevinMarks] This sounds like an indieweb friendly job https://algorithmwatch.org/en/jobalert-senior-policy-advocacy-manager-2023/
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GWG Working on enhancing my venue page by querying for the images attached to posts made at the venue. Needs work, but how's this? https://david.shanske.com/venue/neue-synagogue/
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GWG How I need to start attaching more photos to my checkins, I guess
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GWG And display child venues
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[John_Eckman] ↩️ I like the approach here of federated status updates (mastodon) for something things and plain old post-on-your-own-platform for others (photos -> RSS feed)
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GWG [tantek]: Sorry I didn't get this photo matter done last week
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> https://web.archive.org/web/20100228155218/http://threewordchant.com:80/2010/02/24/why-the-internet-will-fail-from-1995
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> This article got a lot wrong but the final paragraph is resonant.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> This made me chuckle "Stores will become obselete. So how come my local mall does more business in an afternoon than the entire Internet handles in a month?"
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[tantek] GWG, what photo matter?
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GWG The venue enhancement I made and posted in here about an hour ago would have been great on the calendar last month
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GWG <+GWG> Working on enhancing my venue page by querying for the images attached to posts made at the venue. Needs work, but how's this? https://david.shanske.com/venue/neue-synagogue/
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starrwulfe[m] capjamesg: the malls near me went outta business— Amazon and Walmart killed them.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> The UK still has shopping centres but they succeed to varying degrees.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> (i.e. the big ones in the middle of cities do really well, but there aren't really smaller ones)
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GWG Uploading photos taken at checkins to enhance my new feature. I should remember to do that closer to check-in time
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[KevinMarks] I'd disagree from my liminal urban/rural Yorkshire base- the small ones do well as they're not substitutable by generic online, but the old department stores die off. Whitby/York thrive on small chaotic shops that are worth travelling for, Middlesbrough is entirely replaced by amazon
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> My comment was more with regard to organised shopping centres than collections of shops.
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> I agree re: York and Whitby.
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GWG There's one of the largest malls in the country near where I am today
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[KevinMarks] Tim talking about a culture clash https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2022/12/30/Mastodon-Privacy-and-Search
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[KevinMarks] Conversely https://ohai.social/@Fawn/109617272753785180
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Loqi [preview] [Fawn] Just finished manually blocking a ton of bigoted domains.I noticed:They're extremely lonely. They're angry & sad that the fediverse is reasonably efficient at blocking them before they can cause harm & have their fun. Without targets they can attack ...
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[tantek] opt-in to public searchability is not the worst of ideas
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barnaby what are hashcodes
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "hashcodes" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "hashcodes is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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barnaby the term was used in that tbray post to refer to hashtags, haven’t heard it before
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barnaby is it used on mastodon/the wider fediverse?
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barnaby [KevinMarks]: the tbray post got me thinking a bit about how attitudes to use of public content online has changed over the past 10 years, from the environment which produced creative commons to the current environment of mastodon which seems to not care at all about content licensing, but directs deep, focused attention at preventing abuse and harassment
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barnaby huh, or 20 years, rather, as CC was 20 last year
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barnaby I wonder if one reason why mastodon servers don’t seem to be interested in content licensing is that the anti-search and defederation measures which are possible against potential bad actors are seen as a sufficient social solution, rather than the legal one which CC provides
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[iambismark] It’s an interesting question… do you have the right to talk on a soap box in the public square without people threatening violence to you? Yes, definitely. Do you have the right to talk on a soap box in the public square without being recorded? Well, that’s a bit more tricky. Is Mastodon with publicly accesible URLs a soap box in a public square or is it a quiet conversation in the park that someone might overhear?
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[iambismark] Analogies are bad because conversations in the park, soap box or not, don’t have URLs…
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[KevinMarks] This is danah's "they're not talking to you" revisited
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[KevinMarks] http://www.danah.org/papers/LITA.html
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> > The typical response that i get is that we need to get over it, privacy is dead. We should teach bloggers that they are in public. But bloggers aren't naive - they know they're talking in public and they view the benefits of being public as more important than the risks. Honestly, the only way to really model the potential risks is through complete and utter paranoia. And frankly, who really wants to live like that? We si
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[fluffy] also there’s a gradation between “privacy is difficult to maintain in this day and age” and “might as well just give all personal data to the giant data clearinghouses because there’s nothing left to protect”
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[snarfed] https://cybervillains.com/@alex/109605436812933195
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Loqi [preview] [Alex Stamos] I find the arguments against officially supported Fediverse search pretty tedious, as you have to be really naive to believe that a bunch of bad-faith actors aren’t already quietly archiving everything.Much better to positively engage with people t...
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[tantek] to be blunt, I find it quite interesting/suspicious that the "arguments against public indexing & search tedious" crowd tend to all be reasonably well-off white males, likely experiencing a very different internet/web experience (vis-a-vis harassment etc.) than most other people.
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[tantek] I believe they are lacking in experience, empathy, or both.
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[tantek] Also anyone who EVER makes an argument that goes from "it's hard" to "might as well just" about anything privacy or security related is either arguing in bad faith, or profoundly ignorant/naïve about defense in depth.
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[tantek] (aside: I have a feeling this is going to be a much spicier year than last, I think I have run out of 🦆 🦆 🦆 )
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[snarfed] the other important distinction is opposition to _user features_ based on global indexing, eg global search, vs opposition to _any global indexing_, even for wholly private purposes. it seems like the fediverse has mostly focused on the latter, which is arguably more cultural/UX than purely technical, and makes sense to me
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[snarfed] er sorry, fediverse has mostly focused on the _former_
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[tantek] I still think the "solution" here is opt-in indexing, perhaps via IndieAuth
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[snarfed] makes for a hard developer experience, eg you'd pretty much always get partial bits of threads, with only the opted in users. like Facebook's API changes after Cambridge Analytica, which basically killed Bridgy using it via API
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[iambismark] “Replies to indexable posts are indexable”, too complicated of a UX?
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[snarfed] no that's the simple version everyone started with, including Facebook, which turned out to be insufficient privacy wise
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barnaby it caused (causes? haven’t seen any for a while) plenty of privacy issues on twitter, too. I’ve seen a few tweets from locked accounts exposed to the public via quoting/replying/retweeting from non-locked accounts
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[tantek] [snarfed] I disagree. Ironically, Mastodon already "solved" this UX problem with the whole CW thing.
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[tantek] i.e. for any replies from accounts that have NOT opted in, you (search indexer/engine) "simply" show their "content" as a "Content Warning" and they have to click through to the original to see it
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IWDiscordRelay <c​apjamesg#4492> "I still think the "solution" here is opt-in indexing, perhaps via IndieAuth" I like this idea.
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[snarfed] that's why I said _developer_ experience, not UX
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[snarfed] Unrelated, came up in #indieweb-wordpress just now: seems like we still don't know whether/how to do synd links for posts federated directly into the fediverse
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[snarfed] There's no separate URL, just the post's permalink itself, but it would be nice to have some visual and maybe functional indicator. Maybe doesn't need standardized mf2 though?
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Loqi [snarfed]: it looks like this conversation is getting pretty technical (federated, mf2), can you take it to #indieweb-dev?
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[snarfed] maybe
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[snarfed] I've been synd linking to https://fed.brid.gy/user/snarfed.org, which isn't quite satisfying, but it's something
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aaronpk what would be the purpose of the link?
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aaronpk the only thing i can think of is to indicate to someone that lands on one of my permalinks that they can respond and interact with the post from their own mastodon account
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aaronpk which means it's not really a syndication link problem, it's a response problem
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GWG aaronpk: Through what method though?
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aaronpk i didn't say i have a solution
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aaronpk just trying to frame the problem before jumping to plumbing solutions
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GWG That's why I decided to stop displaying a placeholder until we figured it out
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[tantek] [snarfed] I think it’s quite reasonable to say that when a #indieweb-wordpress conversation seems more generally applicable, take it to #indieweb-dev first
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[tantek] WordPress itself is not an “end user” tool, it’s a dev tool. It requires too much tech knowhow and admintax to install and keep running
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GWG [tantek]: I think that is partially mitigated with managed WordPress. But point taken
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GWG But the question [snarfed] brought may be back to the fact that I use syndication links design wise the way other sites use share links.
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GWG And we haven't iterated in that area lately
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[snarfed] This is unrelated to WordPress. Only mentioned the channel for context
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[snarfed] aaronpk yeah I don't have a crisp use case, but agreed, responding is probably the most obvious
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[snarfed] So yeah maybe it's just another angle on the "remote respond" fediverse UX problem that we've discussed before
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starrwulfe[m] So if I’m understanding here—
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starrwulfe[m] There’s an issue with permalinks coming from a post in that no one would know they could act on them with webmentions as well as with ActivityPub and there needs to be a way to say so to the readers?
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[snarfed] I think so. Basically https://indieweb.org/syndication-link-use-cases for posts directly federated (ie not POSSEd) into the fediverse
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Loqi hey starrwulfe[m] [snarfed]: that's a lot of dev jargon! ActivityPub, federated... can you move to #indieweb-dev?
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starrwulfe[m] Sorry Loqi, one more thing though;
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starrwulfe[m] Would be nice to present a “short link” in a text box with a blurb saying to either do one or the other with a button for commentpara.de, mastodon “enter instance here” and even the bird if you’re so inclined.
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[snarfed] Loqi I'm trying to keep it about the UX q, but hard to avoid jargon
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[snarfed] starrwulfe right, hence "response problem" and "remote respond" above
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starrwulfe[m] [snarfed] I’ve been paying attention to bloggers like [aaronpk] [tantek] and 0x3b0b who have blogs that pull double duty and was wondering how they’re going to tackle it actually
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starrwulfe[m] It’s a great added feature set to be able to join in as a first party client but also there’s a need to let people know your handle in AP and then also tell WM capable folks they can do that too. Potentially people will run into issues that can see one blog in both places from their blog (like how I can from micro.blog).
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starrwulfe[m] Maybe [manton] has ideas?
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[snarfed] We've though this through pretty comprehensively for webmentions and silos etc - https://indieweb.org/buttons#Brainstorming, https://indieweb.org/syndication-link-use-cases , https://indieweb.org/webactions
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[snarfed] the fediverse people have thought through remote respond/follow similarly comprehensively
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[snarfed] we (who care) probably just need to start implementing fediverse remote respond/follow on our own sites
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[snarfed] hence me prototyping it with synd links to https://fed.brid.gy/user/snarfed.org, which lets you remote follow
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starrwulfe[m] Was meaning to ask this question to you a few days ago when I was deep diving how I was going to add AW to my self hosted site.
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[tantek] Yeah if we’re not strictly talking about the user interactions / use-cases or a step by step user story trying to accomplish a specific goal, the chatter should move to #indieweb-dev
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[tantek] If you can’t explain it without jargon, it’s not user friendly