#indieweb 2023-02-03

2023-02-03 UTC
[benatwork] and barnaby joined the channel
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Herbi
I had everything sending me emails, that was my universal inbox. At one point I got tired of notifications and clutter so, I turned that off. Now, the universal outbox would be nice, I still had to go to each service to respond if email reply was not supported.
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aaronpk
so normally i archive the reply context for posts i reply to. I'm going through my posts to find any that might be missing for whatever reason (like it's from an old twitter import). The first one that came up is not what I expected. I have a reply to a mastodon post that has been deleted. what should I do with my post?
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aaronpk
it's already not showing the reply context presumably because the post was already deleted when I replied to it from my reader
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aaronpk
shoudl i just delete my reply?
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aaronpk
oh huh, there are a bunch more like this
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barnaby
what does mastodon do with masto-native posts? I imagine that it keeps the replies but shows an empty reply context, like twitter? presuming the federation worked correctly and the server containing the reply context got notified about the original post getting deleted, that is
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aaronpk
new strategy: go from oldest to newest, and only look for missing twitter.com links
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[tantek]
barnaby, not sure what Mastodon does, if you find examples we could use screenshots!
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[tantek]
Twitter has changed what it does over the years, now even deleted posts show their replies after they've been deleted!
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[tantek]
I don't know what the "right" answer is
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[tantek]
would be worth a good IWC discussion session!
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[tantek]
aaronpk, there are multiple pieces of this that may have different answeres
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[tantek]
i.e. for your content (your reply), you have to decide how much you care about it or not. for other people's content, I'm leaning towards taking more steps to respect their intentions, like deletion etc. at least on anything publicly displayed
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[tantek]
like if you want to keep a hidden view of reply-contexts for yourself when you're logged into your site, that seems like a reasonable "cache"
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barnaby
that sounds like a reasonable approach
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aaronpk
in this case i don't even yet have a hidden view of the reply context to keep
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aaronpk
so far from my spot checking, most of my own content here is relatively low value, just random chatter
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aaronpk
wow, a lot of the missing contexts are from accounts that have been deleted, suspended, or blocked me
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aaronpk
and a bunch of the tweets have been deleted but the account still exists
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aaronpk
i've worked around the rate limit so this is gonna take a while. currently in 2010
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aaronpk
i think i'm gonna switch to go from most recent first
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[TMichelleMoore]
[capjamesg] I would be interested in what you find regarding the bookmarks.
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aaronpk
much fewer errors in this direction. already went through all of 2022-2018
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aaronpk
oh and a bunch of accounts have switched to private
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benatkin
I would have paid a lot of attention to this on Twitter if it happened a couple months ago, but I've been logged out of this for a couple weeks and am just watching from here and Mastodon :)
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[tantek]
that's an interesting variant
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[tantek]
someone switching a whole account (and thus all their past posts) to private would seem to imply they'd want that for their content elsewhere in any reply-contexts also
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[tantek]
so making those private on your own site so only you can view them would be a good step
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[tantek]
since cross-site audience portability is not a thing we have figured out yet
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aaronpk
again you're talking as if i have this tweet at all in the first place
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aaronpk
that's a different problem :)
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benatkin
[tantek]: trying to think of an example of this happening - even with google reader it was bad, and that was ideal circumstances
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[tantek]
I mean if you can still see them sure, otherwise maybe not worth the effort of checking the internet archive
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benatkin
well, clearly not ideal...
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aaronpk
oh interesting, i forgot that people who follow me but their account is private means i can't see their tweets. follow != permission to read
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[tantek]
you have to be following them
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aaronpk
a surprising number of people who follow me have switched their accounts to private
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aaronpk
i'm down to 2015 now tho
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cambridgeport90[
this is a test.
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starrwulfe
I wonder if another influx of migrating pachyderms is imminent...
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cambridgeport90[
You guys should have seen my earlier diatribe on Twitter...only reason why I didn't @-mention Elon himself is because even though I don't like what he's doing, I still have a reputation to keep on Twitter, at least I think I do. But I'm just annoyed, because what about applications that have been riding the API for years? The one that posts stuff via WPTweets Pro to Twitter, it's been there forever, well, there have been a couple of
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cambridgeport90[
iterations, but it's mostly there. I wonder now; that, and what about other services that have cross-posting from their own applications? Micro.blog comes to mind.
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Loqi
hey starrwulfe, cambridgeport90[: that's a lot of dev jargon! API... can you move to #indieweb-dev?
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Kaezon
Hey all. Testing to see if I set my stuff up correctly
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Kaezon
Hmm. The image from my h-card isn't showing up.
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aaronpk
well import was as successful as it's going to ever be!
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aaronpk
filled in a lot of missing reply contexts
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ross[m]
<capjamesg> "Re: UniversalInbox. I love..." <- i guess in a sense I do have my own pre, posting UniversalInbox, all my stuff starts it's life in Obsidian, the flow something like this: Obsidian -> my site -> posting elsewhere
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ross[m]
Wait what... that is my UniversalOutbox
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ross[m]
need caffeine
[marksuth], mro, gRegorLove_, kloenk, oodani, Guest6, [jamietanna], geoffo, kaichanvong, [pfefferle] and mikeputnam joined the channel
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aaronpk
Oh and now I remember one of the other twitter projects I haven't done that I might have to scramble to do real quick, which is to archive full twitter threads when I favorite a tweet at the top or bottom of one
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ross[m]
burying my head in the sand on twitter forensics/archaeology - just don't have enough time - but then again I did not ever use it seriously - on balance guessing there is some stuff I want to get out of there - if anyone spots a good guide for the lazyweb on mining techniques I would love to hear about it :-)
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sknebel
snscrape does twitter crawling pretty well afaik
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[jacky]
has anyone done a "tag"/"category" audit of their site?
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aynish
yeah, it's not great haha https://anish.lakhwara.com/tag_index.html
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[aciccarello]
I have a tag page too. I should probably add counts as well. A lot only have one post.
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[aciccarello]
Some of those were from my imported Instagram posts
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[schmarty]
yep i have https://martymcgui.re/tags/ and i look through it from time to time, usually when i am making a new post and wondering if i have already got a relevant tag.
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aaronpk
oh huh i don't have a page like that
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IWDiscordRelay
<c​apjamesg#4492> https://jamesg.blog/tag/
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[benji]
I have a tags page but dont check it often: https://benji.dog/tags
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[Murray]
jacky: I don't have a tags page, and I'm overdue an audit on them, but back in 2020 I did a deep dive into categories, removed a lot, and generally switched things up. Been pretty happy with them since 😊 I wrote about that here: https://theadhocracy.co.uk/wrote/the-taxonomy-of-me and now surface them as part of my site search (as filters)
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[tantek]
re: "tag"/"category" audit ...
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[tantek]
what is a tag cloud
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "tag cloud" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "tag cloud is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[Murray]
This year I'd like to look at using tags to generate a true digital garden, so each one becomes an entry that lists all of the notes, bookmarks, and articles under it, but which I can also edit manually and add stuff to directly. We'll see how that goes 😅
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[tantek]
tag cloud is /tags_page
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[tantek]
aynish, aciccarello, [schmarty], capjamesg, benji, can you add your tags pages to: https://indieweb.org/tags_page#IndieWeb_Examples
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capjamesg
I'll do it on February 3rd.
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[tantek]
TFW when you forget to push Publish / click Save 🤦
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[snarfed]
re link text design/styling, from #dev...had to check what I do on my site, I ended up underlining links but not coloring them any differently, and color them blue on hover. I think that felt like the best compromise between focus, usability, and discoverability
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[tantek]
I've been using ASCII footnotes (e.g. ^1) for inline citations rather than hyperlinks in my recent 100days posts because I believe it helps reduce link click distraction while reading. Though I admit the (^n) punctuation can also interrupt the reading flow.
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aaronpk
I agree that what shows up on twitter should suggest that there's more if you click thru to the original
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[snarfed]
and again, as usual, I love that we all do these things differently in the IndieWeb, let a thousand flowers bloom etc
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aaronpk
what about only doing the ^5 thing for the twitter posse
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[snarfed]
(loses a bit of consistency, but probably still worth it)
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[snarfed]
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 10 karma in this channel over the last year (96 in all channels)
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aaronpk
that way the original is even more of a better experience
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[snarfed]
make POSSE destinations feel slightly uncomfortable, as they should
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[tantek]
I may add auto-Unicode of e.g. ^1 to ¹
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[tantek]
at least on my site
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aaronpk
that would also be an improvement
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[snarfed]
definitely
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aaronpk
but I think one of the amazing things about the web is inline links!
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[snarfed]
me too!
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aaronpk
Footnotes exist because you can't inline link in print!
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[tantek]
If I'm linking every third word or something I think that becomes distracting for the reader, and for folks who can't help but click a link immediately when they scan over it.
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aaronpk
i think that's presuming a particular type of reader
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aaronpk
and isn't universal
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[snarfed]
yeah that's the core disagreement, what's more or less distracting. it's measurable, but not easily, and I bet it varies widely by person
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[snarfed]
I like that we're all trying different approaches
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[tantek]
no it's protecting a particular type of reader, which is kinda the point of a lot of accessibility
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aaronpk
but it's protecting one type at the cost of a different type
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aaronpk
personally it takes me longer and more effort to read the sentence when it's full of ^4 things every few words
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aaronpk
I can't scan the text as easily as if it were just the letters
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[tantek]
yeah that's suboptimal I agree, hence my goal to replace ^4 with ⁴
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[tantek]
checks logs
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aaronpk
usually when you apply accessibility guidelines on the web, it makes the experience better for everyone
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[aciccarello]
Automatic footnotes would be a cool syndication feature
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[tantek]
ideally yeah, but not always and I'm not even sure "usually"
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aaronpk
Well, the goal is anyway
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aaronpk
I remember hearing that point over and over during the accessibility club sessions in Germany adjacent to IWCs
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[tantek]
like there are competing cognitive disabilities for example which you may have to trade-off
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[tantek]
sure, because it is true for many things, it's just not universally true
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[tantek]
it's also part of the pitch and the easiest part to do
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[tantek]
e.g. try reading WCAG 2.1 and LMK when you have trouble following / get distracted
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capjamesg
is going to visualize his bookmarks with embeddings to see if it is interesting
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[tantek]
I think I did the ² style footnotes in some past posts manually but it was a pain
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[tantek]
welp and I just discovered my DDG driven personal site search is broken 😞
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[schmarty]
Duck Duck No
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[tantek]
or apparently I've never used the word "footnote" on my site?!?
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[jeremycherfas]
One reason I really want to implement sidenotes on my site is because they don’t really interrupt scanning, in my experience. But tricky to do responsively.
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[tantek]
jeremycherfas, would sidenotes be a form of /marginalia?
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capjamesg
[schmarty] You have your own cluster in my bookmarks haha.
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IWDiscordRelay
<c​apjamesg#4492>
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[dave]
Here's my latest weird web experiment: I asked a bunch of maker friends to tell me what their business would look like as a store in an 80's style shopping mall and then had midjourney try to draw them. I call it the Friend Mall https://itsdaves.site/friend-mall/
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Loqi
[preview] Decaying Silos as dead malls 2018-01-20
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[dave]
the twitter one is an interestingly accurate prediction
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[tantek]
[dave]++ that’s a great way to showcase friends’s sites that make stuff for others to buy etc
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Loqi
[dave] has 1 karma in this channel over the last year (3 in all channels)
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[tantek]
It made me think of blogrolls and how they could be much better presented
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[schmarty]
capjamesg: the schmarty local cluster
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capjamesg
I like your cat posts :D
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[tantek]
It’s somewhere in that middle area between a list of links and a full on rendered VR virtual mall experience
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[tantek]
[dave] I liked that you started with asking your maker friends for a textual description
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[dave]
I was contemplating a janky 3d render of just the images as cube surfaces like the old windows maze screensaver
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[tantek]
That makes for high quality alt text if you arranged the images as an actual virtual 2.5d mall, without any text
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[tantek]
Or yeah something like that 😂
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[tantek]
Thinking more like classic Doom 3d room / maze nav
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[tantek]
I’m guessing these days that might be possible with “just” CSS but that’s a #indieweb-dev conversation
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[tantek]
I’d start with perhaps a 2d mall floor plan / map view
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[tantek]
The other idea this gives me is making that “what would your site look like as a classic shopping mall storefront” query something people could self publish (like a very specialized “summary” or “description” of their site, won’t get into the plumbing)
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[tantek]
And then anyone who had those sites in their blog roll could construct such a virtual mall accordingly
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[tantek]
Or for example a webring of those sites could present a virtual infinite mall presentation using images generated from such self-published text descriptions
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[tantek]
Somehow “View 1990s mall theme” seems like an appropriate option for a webring site
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[jeremycherfas]
Yes, side notes are marginalia. But to me the vocabulary of footnotes, endnotes and marginalia seem foreign to the flexibility inherent in the web. And then one could add references or citations, which also have style hangovers from print.
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[tantek]
I see it as additive rather than foreign. The flexibility of the web allows more presentational freedom and thus we should use it creatively as such, including incorporation of prior visual and other techniques
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[campegg]
[tantek] >> "If I'm linking every third word or something I think that becomes distracting…" As a counterexample, the ^n notation is also _very_ distracting when reading via RSS (this is from Reeder on Mac): https://campegg.com/media/images/footnotes.png
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[tantek]
[campegg] yeah, [snarfed] & aaronpk had similar feedback so I’m going to prioritize turning the ASCII footnotes into Unicode. Might even hyperlink them to their expansions if I can figure a good way to generate the fragments
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[tantek]
I have done Unicode footnotes by hand in the past once or twice however I can’t figure out a way to search my blog to find them!
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[tantek]
It’s not like search engines actually index arbitrary Unicode characters
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[tantek]
Kinda wondering if anyone has that for their own personal site search. Eg I know micro.blog indexes use of emojis in posts for example though I don’t think you can search just your own micro.blog feed for a specific emoji
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[KevinMarks]
The sidenotes vs footnotes dichotomy does depend on screen width. The Tufte_CSS model handles this with a details/summary style fallback
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[timothy_chambe]
FYI all, NetNewsWire has just set up an official account on the Indieweb Mastodon instance for those who want to follow:
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[timothy_chambe]
It's empty now but just getting started up.
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[dave]
Cool bean
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[dave]
(yes just one)
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[dave]
That reminds me I need to figure out whether I want to refollow twitter accounts that I imported into NetNewsWire or stop following the ones that haven't moved to Mastodon or a blog yet
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