#indieweb 2023-12-22

2023-12-22 UTC
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[capjamesg] [chrisaldrich] I was going to buy an typewriter until I realized you don't have a backspace key.
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[jacky] coming from #indieweb-chat, the case for requiring all follows to have approval
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[jacky] tbh this fits okay with a use-case for ticketing for indieauth
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[jacky] speaking on the automated service (and I keep poking at this as an example b/c it feels like the lowest hanging fruit example) that could auto-follow someone and auto-approve if they show up on /chat-names
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[tantek] mmmm it's like Vouch but for followers!
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gRegor what is follow
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Loqi 👣 follow is a common feature (and often UI button) in silo UIs (like Twitter) that adds updates from that profile (typically a person) to the stream shown in an integrated reader, and sometimes creates a follow post either in the follower's stream ("… followed …" or "… is following …") thus visible to their followers, and/or in the notifications of the user being followed ("… followed you") https://indieweb.org/follow
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gRegor Not sure what that means in an indieweb context, like if I didn't approve a follower they couldn't see my posts in a social reader?
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[tantek] yes, I proposed in #indieweb-chat that one possible follow interaction is to require all follows be follow-requests. all follows require approval
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[tantek] and thus a logical follow-up (so to speak) is sending a follow-request + vouch as a way of potentially skipping approval. like you can follow me without my explicit approval if someone I know already likes/links/follows you.
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gRegor I guess it requires private or audience-limited posts first
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GWG gRegor: That's still a problem for me.
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[tantek] gRegor, it does not, that's the point. this is something that even "public" profiles / sites could do
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[tantek] context: https://mastodon.social/@dansup/111617703110836835
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[tantek] to which I pondered: I wonder why not do this for all external instances by default?
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gRegor I don't see how I could easily restrict software from reading my public pages
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Halian robots.txt is the only8 way I know of
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[tantek] not reading no, but receiving realtime updates / stream updates
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gRegor Hm, might be getting into dev, not sure how to ask what I'm wondering about without jargon :)
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[tantek] yep
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gRegor But the feed would still be available for regular polling, right?
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gRegor ack, wrong channel
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[KevinMarks] https://fedi.aria.dog/objects/188a5
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[KevinMarks] https://fedi.aria.dog/objects/188a59e9-a638-47ea-9314-421ca64d116a
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[snarfed] how does follow approval reconcile with the open web where everything is public?
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[snarfed] oh, it would only be meaningful for non-public posts? I guess so, ok. sounds like we (IndieWeb) may still be missing at least some of the mechanisms for request follow/approve/reject, but we could figure those out
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[tantek] it could also be meaningful for: real time notifications, and being listed as a follower. gating both of those on approval makes some amount of sense
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[chrisaldrich] [capjamesg] don't let the lack of a back space key deter you from typewriters as a posting interface. My 1948 Clipper certainly has one (see the upper left corner of the keyboard): https://i0.wp.com/boffosocko.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/wp-1681680217457-scaled.jpg. You'd have to go even further back to find models which don't have them generally. I find moving large jumps earlier or up or down the page to be easier there than in some
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[chrisaldrich] digital contexts. 🙂
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[chrisaldrich] [Al_Abut], GWG, [aciccarello] et al. from Camp this past weekend: Did anyone who took photos (group photos) at camp ever end up posting them to the wiki, the event page, or their own personal sites?
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GWG [chrisaldrich]: I was told [tantek] was taking responsibility for this
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gRegor Yeah he mentioned in meta that he needs to upload them
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "IndieWeb Carnival December 2023 — Holiday and December traditions" https://lifeofpablo.com/blog/holiday-traditions
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Loqi [indienews/es] New post: "IndieWeb Carnival en Diciembre 2023 — Tradiciones y Celebraciones de Diciembre" https://lifeofpablo.com/blog/tradiciones-de-diciembre
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[Murray] New LynnAndTonic dropped yesterday, some very fun animations (as per usual), though a bit more hidden than many previous years: https://lynnandtonic.com/
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petermolnar what is portfolio
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Loqi A portfolio on the Indieweb is a professional web page (or collection thereof) targeted at paying customers/clients that often shows examples of work and projects https://indieweb.org/portfolio
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petermolnar question: is a portfolio a garden?
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petermolnar (as in indieweb context)
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rubenwardy i'd contest that it's aimed at paying customers/clients - a portfolio is just a collection of prior work and projects
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rubenwardy I have a portfolio on my website but don't do freelance
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[jeremycherfas] I’d agree, it need not be aimed at clients. I also think it is a kind of garden, in terms of presentation and maintenance.
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rubenwardy idk, I don't use a watering can or trowel on my portfolio
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[schmarty] you would if your portfolio was plants 🙃
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[jacky] ^
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[jacky] aggressively so in the summer 🙂
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petermolnar what is a garden
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Loqi garden is a place for deliberate growing of plants, decorative or for eating, that are sometimes the primary subject of IndieWeb posts, and is an area of exploration for more structured posts around planting, plant growth, flowering, bearing fruit etc https://indieweb.org/garden
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petermolnar what is garden vs streams
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "garden vs streams" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "garden vs streams is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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petermolnar what is garden and stream
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Loqi garden and stream is a metaphor for different kinds & aspects of websites, contrasting growing & linking content slowly & incrementally by topic, versus posting & presenting time-based content chronologically, and the subject of a few IndieWebCamp sessions https://indieweb.org/garden_and_stream
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petermolnar there, I should have added that before my question
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[jacky] ha
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[Murray] I definitely like the idea of thinking of a portfolio as a garden, seems to fit it well
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[tantek] portfolios tend to be much tidier and more curated than typical gardens, both real and metaphorical website. Perhaps portfolio as topiary garden would be more metaphorically accurate: https://www.veranda.com/outdoor-garden/a32024348/topiary-gardens/
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[tantek] wearing my IndieWebCamp shirt, ready to do some IndieWeb updates
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[snarfed] Bluesky finally launched their public web view, https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/12-21-2023-butterfly
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[tantek] whoa
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[tantek] That makes POSSEing much more interesting, since you should be able to link to POSSE copies which "work" for folks without having to install anything
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s​tarrwulfe Aww snap! time for me to clear my 💩 posts outta there before they're seen! (doesn't matter, I POSSE put them all over the place anyway.)
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s​tarrwulfe [edit] Aww snap! time for me to clear my 💩 posts outta there before they're seen! (doesn't matter, POSSE put them all over the place anyway.)
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s​tarrwulfe The big news is now I need to look for a new icon for the syndication link on all my posts. At least this is a bit better than 🟦 though
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[tw2113] the bluesky butterfly!
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[snarfed] testing out a Bridgy Fed home page redesign for multiple protocols. feedback is welcome! https://20231222t115127-dot-bridgy-federated.uc.r.appspot.com/
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s​tarrwulfe I mean I guess I could stick to emoji 🦋 since it's blue on most platforms...
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s​tarrwulfe [snarfed]: * is it OK to say Bluesky or ATProto? Seems strange because my Fediverse vs Mastodon OCD wants them to match up
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s​tarrwulfe * don't forget to change the @ to a 🦋 in any case...
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[tantek] what is 🦋
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "🦋" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "🦋 is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] 🦋 is /Bluesky
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Loqi ok
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[aciccarello] Wow, look at that graph background
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s​tarrwulfe Guess it's official since Loqi has been told.
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[snarfed] starrwulfe they're different things. Bluesky is the social network and app, ATP is the underlying protocol
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[aciccarello] [snarfed] are the bluesky/nostr links supposed to do something?
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[snarfed] like fediverse vs ActivityPub
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[snarfed] [aciccarello] if you choose one above and one below, it should scroll down a bit and give you instructions
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[snarfed] ...which makes me realize I need to test in more than one browser 😆
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[snarfed] oh sorry, bluesky/nostr buttons, no, they're disabled
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[snarfed] hovering should say "coming soon"
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[tantek] [snarfed] does it need JS to work?
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[snarfed] should I make them darker gray to emphasize that they're disabled
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[snarfed] [tantek] yeah, I'm still working on progressive enhancement
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[tantek] if you use checkboxes (which you can style into looking like those buttons), you don't need to use JS
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[snarfed] they're radio buttons
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[tantek] o rly
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[jacky] sigh
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[aciccarello] Ah, I'm not noticing the "coming soon" just that they aren't actionable
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[snarfed] it's old bootstrap
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[snarfed] [aciccarello] you don't get the hover tooltip on the bluesky/nostr buttons? hmm surprising
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[jacky] hmm interesting that graphic in the background works in GNOME Web but _not_ in Firefox
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[snarfed] uh it works in firefox for me
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[jacky] hmm then it's a-me thing
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[aciccarello] Oh, strange. When I went to take a screenshot the title tooltip appeared but not normally.
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[jacky] wonders which extension is causing this now
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[aciccarello] I'm testing in Chrome
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[jacky] hm neither in LibreWolf (kept clean)
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[jacky] confident it's a-me thing so ignoring for now
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[aciccarello] Okay, figured it out. Chrome apparently waits to show the tooltip longer than the mouse icon which throws me off.
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[snarfed] hmm ok
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[tantek] [snarfed] I see the glow on hover but nothing happens when I click the options
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[snarfed] click one above and one below
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[tantek] also the aesthetics look a step down from before 😕
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[snarfed] agreed, I"m definitely not much of a designer, I'm open to feedback!
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[tantek] summary for now: keep the existing visual design as much as possible.
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[snarfed] but I do want to try to make it a bit slicker. the current design feels dated and simplistic
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[tantek] https://fed.brid.gy/ looks frickin gorgeous in comparison (and not bad overall!)
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[tantek] no all the shadows / weirdly mismatching colors don't look slicker. quite the opposite. looks much more design janky like a bad MySpace (sorry)
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[snarfed] oh sure, I can definitely improve shadows and color palette. very open to specific suggestions!
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[tantek] less is the suggestion. shadows, colors
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[snarfed] ok!
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[snarfed] I'm guessing you specifically mean the bright glow-y shadows around the text and buttons, right?
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[tantek] with the prototype, I can't even tell what all the combinations are that are currently supported. it's really unclear
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[aciccarello] Trying a slack screenshot video upload... Please hold
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[tantek] the network diagrams in the current design https://fed.brid.gy/ make it MUCH clearer what I'm getting into
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[aciccarello] https://chat-uploads.indieweb.org/files/2023/12/indieweb-20231222-201142-screen_recording_2023-12-22_at_1.10.00___pm.mov
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[snarfed] [aciccarello] understood! the hover delay is browser default, I'm not doing anything special
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[tantek] [snarfed] I don't think it's worth the time / design-noise to put "coming soon" features
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[snarfed] good suggestion
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[tantek] frankly anytime I see a service that has those it makes it look broken
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[snarfed] yeah agreed, understood
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[tantek] it's a negative and distracts from the things that *do* work, which are massively worth celebrating
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[snarfed] and agreed on the current front page diagrams, they're nice, but don't scale to the multi-protocol future. that was the big motivator for the redesign
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[aciccarello] Yeah, I figured it was browser specific. Just wanted to demonstrate exactly what I'm seeing.
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[tantek] what do you mean "don't scale to the multi-protocol future"? that sounds like a design challenge that's worth asking in #indieweb-dev about 🙂
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[snarfed] I'm working on a lot of proactive PR/outreach for future protocols like Bluesky, which is what motivated its button and Nostr's on the new front page, but yeah I see that they're confusing
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[snarfed] is #indieweb-dev for visual/UX design? if so then sure
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[tantek] yes absolutely
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[tantek] content vs tool creation/creativity, #indieweb vs #indieweb-dev channel
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[tantek] microcopy might be valid in both places
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[tantek] or copy-editing in general
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[snarfed] ooh Bluesky also quietly shipped native per-user RSS feeds too, eg https://bsky.app/profile/snarfed.org 's is https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:fdme4gb7mu7zrie7peay7tst/rss
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[snarfed] no mf1 or mf2 though
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Loqi friendly reminder [snarfed], we try to keep dev talk (RSS, mf2) out of this channel, can you move to #indieweb-dev?
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[snarfed] 🤷
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[jacky] interesting, that'd make consumption way easier
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[snarfed] I still prefer following one feed via https://bluesky-atom.appspot.com/ , but if you buy into feed per person, then yes
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[tantek] yes please, feed / format talk in #indieweb-dev at least to start
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[chrisaldrich] Handwriting or typecasting one's posts automatically provides one with PASTA. 😁 https://boffosocko.com/2023/12/22/handwriting-and-typecasting-pasta/
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[tantek] sorta. I think the point of PASTA was that the end result was private-to-you *only*
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[tantek] what you're doing, with the end result being public, is something new 🙂
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gRegor So, antiPASTO?
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[tantek] backs away slowly
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gRegor ooh, did not know about bluesky ⚛️ [snarfed]++
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