#indieweb 2024-01-05

2024-01-05 UTC
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[aciccarello] I think Robert has been on a HWC before
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[aciccarello] Was he the one that had issues with the etherpad?
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[tantek] hmm, then it's worth bringing up at a future HWC
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[aciccarello] Oh, sorry. That was Greg Lopez
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[aciccarello] https://indieweb.org/events/2023-05-24-hwc-pacific
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[aciccarello] Robert does get a mention on the accessibility page but the link is broken https://indieweb.org/accessibility#Video_&_Audio_Content
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gRegor what is webmention-faq
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Loqi The Webmention FAQ is for documenting frequently asked questions about Webmention and their answers https://indieweb.org/Webmention-faq
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gRegor Huh, interesting they got the impression it's only about social media from that^ (or at least that's what they linked in the post)
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gRegor Maybe read some extra weight in the question "How do webmentions work with social media sites like Twitter?"
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[tantek] There is the problem that on one hand, there are folks that have deliberately mischaracterized Webmention as being "only link notification" as compared to ActivityPub which is :magic_wand: ✨ federation ✨
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[tantek] Then on the otherhand there is apparently now handwringing about but what if I don't want social media comments on my blog
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[tantek] both are misrepresentations and it's not helpful
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to2ds Haven't implemented Webmentions myself as of yet, but they appear to be way less noisy then ActivityPub protocol exchanges.
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[tantek] yes they were designed to be quite minimal
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Zegnat Re: the webmention discussion 10 hours ago when I was not online: I have accepted webmentions for many many years now, and I have never displayed a single one of them as I do not have a blog.
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Zegnat Though funnily enough, either my endpoint is borked or sara never sent a webmention for the fact I am mentioned in that blogpost :D
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c88 test
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Zegnat test right back at ya! ;)
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Some 88x31 IndieWeb buttons" https://dead.garden/blog/some-88x31-indieweb-buttons.html
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aaronpk omg amazing
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to2ds Those buttons are cool! Is/was 88x31 a standard dimension?
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sknebel pretty much, yes
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sknebel (I think it kinda started with Netscape making "Netscape now!" buttons in that size, and for some reason those were the ones people started making their own variants of, and the size stuck)
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to2ds sknebel - Wow, that brings back memories! Pretty sure I worked the Netscape server back in the day.
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[tantek] to2ds enjoy: https://capstasher.neocities.org/88x31collection-page1
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c​apjamesg [jo]++
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Loqi [jo] has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (12 in all channels)
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to2ds [tantek] - What an awesome website!
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to2ds [tantek]++
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Loqi [tantek] has 17 karma in this channel over the last year (96 in all channels)
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to2ds Piggybacking off the previous Netscape comment...also wrote CGI programs in Visual Basic for a spell 😱😄 Different web server though.
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Halian I thought I had made an 88×31 button for my worldbuilding project, but it was actually 80×15 X3
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[tantek] yes we have those also: https://indieweb.org/buttons#80x15
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[tantek] to2ds and here's a collection of 80x15 gifs https://web.badges.world/ (now that's a domain)
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Halian Nice
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r​eal_devastatia Good morning, everybody!
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r​eal_devastatia I thought there were a bunch of bots talking amongst themselves in the Discord channel at first, before I caught on that the messages are being forwarded from elsewhere. lol
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Halian Beep boop
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c​apjamesg Hello!
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r​eal_devastatia I'm working on a Webmentions implementation in PHP. I'll be testing it against some of the websites listed in the webmentions.io. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up.
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c​apjamesg That is exciting!
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r​eal_devastatia [edit] I'm working on a Webmentions implementation in PHP. I'll be testing it against some of the websites listed in the webmentions.io. wiki. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up.
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Loqi friendly reminder IWDiscord, I don't mean to be a bother, but implementation, PHP seems like a better conversation for #indieweb-dev
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c​apjamesg Let us know if you need any help!
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c​apjamesg (The #indieweb-dev channel is best for technical questions.)
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c​apjamesg Everyone is a bot for you unless they message from Discord because the chat is connected to IRC and Slack too!
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r​eal_devastatia capjamesg[d]: I'd appreciate it if anyone who receives a webmention from my domain would let me know that they received it, and any issues they observed with the mention they received.
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r​eal_devastatia Loqi: Understood. I'm not here to discuss technical matters at the moment. Maybe later. I just wanted everyone to be on the lookout for mentions I send out.
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[tantek] who is Loqi
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot/digital therapist present in the IndieWeb discussion channels https://indieweb.org/User:Loqi.me
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to2ds [tantek] - Wow, that wall of badges is even interactive!
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[tantek] I am surprised that there is no 88x31 or 80x15 page on Wikipedia and they definitely deserve some or at least redirects to page about the larger phenomenon (which I don't know what to call)
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r​eal_devastatia Loqi: I just poached a few buttons from Johanna's site this morning to add to my collection. lol
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to2ds Suspect there will be an uptick of interest in these badges now.
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[Jo] Good :^D i love 88x31
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c​apjamesg real_devastatia[d]: You can send one to mine!
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c​apjamesg jamesg.blog
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r​eal_devastatia capjamesg[d]: Will do!
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r​eal_devastatia There's a site somewhere that has page after page after page of 88x31s, but I forget the URL at the moment.
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to2ds The 31px vertical dimension is intriguing. Was there a rationale behind this as opposed to an even value instead?
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r​eal_devastatia There's a former Netscape graphic designer out there who knows the answer to that question.
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r​eal_devastatia My guess would be that they drew a small image to fit a certain space on their website, and it happened to come out to 88x31 when they were done.
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to2ds r​eal_devastatia - Indeed. Now that designer will have reenter society to let us know why 😄
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r​eal_devastatia Stranger things have happened. They found the guy in that famous picture sitting in a faux wood paneled room with an IBM 4150 smoking a cigarette.
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r​eal_devastatia 5150*
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to2ds Nice!
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[KevinMarks] I'm guessing a 16px line height for text and leaving a 1px gap vertically between them
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to2ds That makes sense.
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c​apjamesg Good post from Molly White: https://citationneeded.news/citation-needed-has-a-new-home/
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[tantek] indeed, I added a bit about that to silo-quits, but that link is new to me
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[tantek] silo-quits << ^ https://citationneeded.news/citation-needed-has-a-new-home/
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Loqi ok, I added "^ https://citationneeded.news/citation-needed-has-a-new-home/" to the "See Also" section of /silo-quits https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=91963&oldid=91704
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[tantek] anyone want to add a "No LLMs used" disclaimer to their website? we're collecting examples in the one new wiki page this week: https://indieweb.org/large_language_model#IndieWeb_Examples
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aaronpk done
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[tantek] ty
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[tantek] with the (growing?) excitement about 88x31 and/or 80x15 buttons, should we create separate (new) pages for those that then have their own IndieWeb Examples sections and links to the larger galleries like shared above?
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[tantek] wants another excuse to link to aaronpk's site footer and thus bug him to make it explicitly fragment linkable 🙂
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to2ds Didn't use "LLM" explicitly but have similar wording on the home page above the fold.
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[tantek] to2ds right, some of the examples use "not by AI" as a broader statement
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[tantek] anyway, how do people feel about the 88x31 and 80x15 buttons? who else has them on their home page (footer, blogroll, etc.) ?
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[KevinMarks] I had some on my old blog but they were hotlinked and expired
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[snarfed] I wonder how Matt Mullenweg POSSEs https://ma.tt/ to https://mastodon.social/@photomatt
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to2ds Love the buttons but haven't added any yet.
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d​arylsun I have a page dedicated to collecting 88x31s of personal websites
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[tantek] please share!
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[Jo] Cool! What is your url ?
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[KevinMarks] hm apparently not that size https://web.archive.org/web/20120129184944im_/http://radio-weblogs.com/0001015/images/2002/05/29/cbdtpaButton.gif - 100x58
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d​arylsun https://blog.darylsun.page/buttons
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Loqi [preview] [Daryl Sun] Buttons & Badges
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[Jo] darylsun++ cool!!
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Loqi darylsun has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (3 in all channels)
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c​apjamesg darylsun++
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Loqi darylsun has 3 karma in this channel over the last year (4 in all channels)
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r​eal_devastatia tantek_com[d] I had a nonbot.org button on my site once, but the only site they ever verified was their own, so I took it off. The reciprocal link on their site back to my site was devilishly hard to find. You had to know the exact URL to find it. I usually give people a couple of months to reciprocate, then I remove their buttons. I hope it's rather obvious my content isn't written by bots anyway. I mean seriousl
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rubenwardy I feel like this is like putting "Does not contain cow poop" on food packaging
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Loqi rubenwardy has 2 karma in this channel over the last year (11 in all channels)
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[snarfed] rubenwardy++
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[snarfed] or convincing consumers it's their responsibility to fix climate change
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c​apjamesg The AI button?
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[snarfed] "has no AI" labels may be fine, but personally I'd care much more about normalizing and expecting a "has some AI" label
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c​apjamesg I use AI in coding my site.
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[snarfed] we're talking about content, not plumbing, right?
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c​apjamesg Yes.
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c​apjamesg But that is to say I am using AI, but not for content.
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c​apjamesg Re: "has some AI" label.
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[snarfed] sure, we can always wordsmith, I wasn't particular about the language
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c​apjamesg I consider the button to be symbolically meaningful.
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to2ds Do we need "no cow poop" buttons too?
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[snarfed] sure, of course. go for it! I think rubenwardy's and my point though is, we'd rather the *default* expectation of an arbitrary page on the web to be, it wasn't written by AI, and if it was, people expect *that* to be labeled
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[snarfed] and we might worry that popularizing "has no AI" labels reduces the expectation that that's the default
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r​eal_devastatia Sadly, AI generated content may become the default, expected or not.
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[tantek] to2ds there are probably 88x31 no cow poop buttons out there 😂
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to2ds [snarfed] - The clarification between content and plumbing is a great point. Could code generators be considered AI?
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[tantek] exactly what real_desvastatia said, some of us expect we are on the verge of a tidal wave of LLM generated web spam, which is going to become less and less distinguishable from human authored content (if it isn't already)
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to2ds [tantek] - If there aren't, there will be soon! 😄
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[tantek] to2ds, "AI" is too vague a term (and has changed meaning over time) to be that useful as a disclaimer, hence why an "LLM" statement is more meaningful
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to2ds Great point.
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[tantek] but yes, you can distinguish between no LLMs used for content or code or anything on your site (example: me), or just disclaiming that no LLMs were used for content on your site (example: capjamesg)
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[tantek] to-do << Consider deleting redirect and creating a new page for [[88x31]] with its own IndieWeb Examples sections and links to galleries like https://capstasher.neocities.org/88x31collection-page1
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Loqi ok, I added "Consider deleting redirect and creating a new page for [[88x31]] with its own IndieWeb Examples sections and links to galleries like https://capstasher.neocities.org/88x31collection-page1" to the "See Also" section of /to-do https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=91968&oldid=91962
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[tantek] to-do << Consider deleting redirect and creating a new page for [[80x15]] with its own IndieWeb Examples section and links to galleries like https://web.badges.world/
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Loqi ok, I added "Consider deleting redirect and creating a new page for [[80x15]] with its own IndieWeb Examples section and links to galleries like https://web.badges.world/" to the "See Also" section of /to-do https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=91969&oldid=91968
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rubenwardy what is 80x15
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "80x15" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "80x15 is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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rubenwardy ahh buttons
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[tantek] rubenwardy see backscroll for today
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[tantek] although apparently no redirect for that one hmm
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[tantek] goes to fix
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rubenwardy didn't know it was related
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rubenwardy 80x15 is /buttons#80x15
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Loqi ok
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rubenwardy what is 80x15
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Loqi Buttons are badges, logos, and banners that you can use to link to indieweb.org and related sites & technologies, and similar images for a handful of sites similarly aligned in principles or development approaches https://indieweb.org/80x15
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[Jo] what is 88x31
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Loqi Buttons are badges, logos, and banners that you can use to link to indieweb.org and related sites & technologies, and similar images for a handful of sites similarly aligned in principles or development approaches https://indieweb.org/88x31
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c​apjamesg [Jo] Today in spam: "An incredible site can be a great source of business development. A poor site can cause harm to your brand's reputation."
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c​apjamesg "I can develop the website on a more advanced platform at an affordable price."
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[Jo] "A poor site can cause harm to your brand's reputation" good <3
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c​apjamesg Does this mean James' Coffee Blog is a brand?
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c​apjamesg I should have t-shirts made.
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r​eal_devastatia Yes, your domain name is essentially your brand, just as good as a trademark.
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r​eal_devastatia I developed a more advanced platform than Spammy McSpammerson can offer me in a text editor, free of charge.
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[Jo] Re: buttons. Anyone know about the stamps? Apparently they are usually 99x55
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[tantek] example?
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Jo1 Jo
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Jo1 oh wait sorry i thought it still wahnted my name ;-;
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Jo1 anyway heres one: https://64.media.tumblr.com/b57e58479f9eecd8ed47057eb9cef162/tumblr_pfzsge92vJ1xzybrpo5_100.png
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Jo1 https://www.tumblr.com/search/stamps I have mostly seen them on tumblr but people use them on their sites too. much rarer i think
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to2ds Curious to know what advanced platform Spammy McSpammerson is using.
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r​eal_devastatia Tandy has quite a few stamps on her site. I poached some of her 88x31s a few months ago. https://alongcomesmary.neocities.org/
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r​eal_devastatia Here's that utterly massive 5-page button collection I mentioned earlier. https://cyber.dabamos.de/88x31/index.html
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r​eal_devastatia to2ds: Probably the same ones you or I could use if we wanted to pay the subscription fee. I found Google's free Search Console to be better than any of them, but that's not saying much. Google doesn't like personal websites unless they're focused on a single topic.
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[jeremycherfas] My take on not by AI https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog/i-wrote-this
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r​eal_devastatia Jeremy, I don't think we're on the verge. Heard of the Dead Internet Theory? It's already here.
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gRegor [jeremycherfas]++ for "There’s precious little to be done about it except to bring your own personal cow-poop detector to bear on everything you read."
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Loqi [jeremycherfas] has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (7 in all channels)
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to2ds real_devastatia - Yep. Probably one of those website builders with the premade templates.
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Jo1 [jeremycherfas]++
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r​eal_devastatia Your own personal poop detector should be the default. Not "users added context" or YouTube adding links to the CDC website under every video. All of these "let's eliminate disinformation" people take the fun out of trolling.
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[tantek] It stopped being "fun" after seeing the impact of disinformation campaigns have real consequences like vigilante murder squads in some countries, or larger effects like Brexit passing and Trump being elected
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Jo1 i love the users added context feature on twitter. it's their maybe only good idea recently
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[tantek] ugh sorry that should have been in #indieweb-chat
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r​eal_devastatia Matters of politics and religion are decided mainly by emotion rather than reason. Facts alone won't sway most people whose minds are made up about a thing.
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r​eal_devastatia Given that Twitter is a hate-infested sewer full of raving lunatics always tearing at eat others' throats, I'm afraid no feature can salvage it.
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r​eal_devastatia [edit] Given that Twitter is a hate-infested sewer full of raving lunatics always tearing at each others' throats, I'm afraid no feature can salvage it.
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[Jo] Doesn't mean one needs to put gasoline on the flames
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[tantek] agreed with your conclusion real_devastatia, that being said, I have found the "Readers added the following context" quite useful and a relief at times, and the UI for "adding context" or "was this context useful?" feels like it has value whether inside Twitter or elsewhere
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[tantek] [Jo]++
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Loqi [Jo] has 8 karma in this channel over the last year (13 in all channels)
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r​eal_devastatia Well, it doesn't bother me if some people believe the earth is flat or Kubrick faked the moon landing. Those things are fun. Most adults know not to take them seriously.
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r​eal_devastatia Social media addicts need to get their own websites. Mr. X can state his opinion on his own platform, and Mr. Y can post a rebuttal on his. Neither owes the other a free soapbox.
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[tantek] really thought you were going for Mr. X vs Mr. Z there real_devastatia 😂
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r​eal_devastatia It's a safe bet Mr. Z would chime in. The "back" button doesn't seem to work for most people anymore. They have to react to everything they see.
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[tantek] lol Dead Internet Theory - saw the Wikipedia article. Sounds like reductio ad absurdum tbh
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[jeremycherfas] Sounds like unrotted cow poop to me.
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r​eal_devastatia Yeah, it's probably facetiously exaggerated, but they have a point.
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r​eal_devastatia Well, I've chatted the day away and haven't accomplished anything. I mean I did write one function, buy groceries, and start my pot roast. Maybe that's all I was meant to do today. 😄
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r​eal_devastatia Anyway, please let me know if you get any Webmentions from me, folks. I'll probably have a rudimentary implementation ready to test after the weekend.
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c​apjamesg Buying groceries is essential. I hope you got everything you needed!
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c​apjamesg (I always forget something.)
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to2ds I think the key takeaway for today is to check cow pies for 88x31 badges to ensure authenticity?
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gRegor lol
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