#indieweb 2024-02-08

2024-02-08 UTC
rvalue, burley, angelo_, pharalia, AramZS and Achylles joined the channel
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Achylles Could https://codeberg.org/ be considered an indieweb-philolophy-friendly? Or do I have to buy a domain for myself to fully go indie?
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gRegor what is codeberg
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Loqi Codeberg is an online service offering Git repository hosting, issue trackers, code review tools, activity feeds, and wikis similar to GitHub and GitLab https://indieweb.org/Codeberg
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[tantek] Achylles, do you consider http://codeberg.org your identity and do you have full control over (ownership) of that domain? That's roughly the criteria.
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gRegor Sounds like it might be more #indieweb-dev if you're talking about self-hosting your code. Plenty in the community use services for that, don't self-host.
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gRegor But codeberg is different from having a personal site
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[tantek] subdomains are not typically considered indieweb because use thereof is not "independent" of the owner of the domain itself. exception obviously if you own both, like http://david.shanske.com
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gRegor services like /micro.blog let you start with a subdomain, can optionally set up a domain on it. Definitely and indieweb friendly option.
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Achylles gRegor: great! But still too expensive for me...
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gRegor what is neocities
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Loqi NeoCities is a free website hosting silo in the spirit of defunct silo GeoCities (Yahoo shutdown in 2009) that looks like a stepping stone to getting started on the IndieWeb https://indieweb.org/NeoCities
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gRegor There's options like that to start
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Achylles gRegor: which one are recommended for people with tight budget? Apart from NeoCities?
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Achylles I am too new to this indieweb thing. Just today I've read my first article about the issue on HN.
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gRegor Ahh, well welcome!
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Achylles I already have a blog in Codeberg, but after reading the article, I thought that it is not so indie... So I came here to ask questions. Sorry...
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mahboubine Achylles: if you want to truly delve in, get the AWS free ec2 instance
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gRegor No worries! I didn't know Codeberg had a blog, that's cool.
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gRegor Neocities is the main free one I'm aware of, though of course there's stuff like Tumblr. it really depends what's the next most important thing to you, or what you're most curious about doing next.
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mahboubine the problem I faced with most other solutions is that they can only run static sites, so you can't implement slightly more complex indieweb concepts because most require php, wordpress and the alike
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Loqi hey mahboubine, it seems like this conversation is more appropriate for #indieweb-dev (AWS, EC2, implement, PHP)
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Achylles gRegor: You can write one and manage it locally through Emacs... That's why i set mine...
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mahboubine sure, we'll move there.
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[tantek] many domains are cheaper than phone numbers, so presumably they're affordable accordingly
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gRegor what is nearlyfreespeech
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Loqi nearlyfreespeech is a pay-what-you-use hosting service based in US https://indieweb.org/nearlyfreespeech
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gRegor Another option^
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gRegor Achylles, is the blog public on the web then or just local?
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Achylles gRegor: it is public. And I and other people who have them in Codeberg, as far as I know, are just attracted to build one because you can manage it locally, using Emacs with a single orgmode file...
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Achylles Then a person can push changes using git to upstream Codeberg.org
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Achylles One write the blog inside Emacs itself...
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Achylles gRegor: https://djrm.codeberg.page/Posts/My%20Org%20Mode%20Blog%20Setup.html
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gRegor Ah, codeberge.page, cool. Hadn't seen that side of it before
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gRegor Definitely sounds indieweb friendly, it does have the option of adding a domain
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[tantek] is that like github static hosting? might want to take this to #indieweb-dev though
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gRegor typo: https://codeberg.page/
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gRegor yes, it appears similar
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[tantek] git push upstream sounds like jargon
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gRegor I'll update /Codeberg
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[tantek] thank you!
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Achylles [tantek]: https://codeberg.org/Blogs -> Service -> Codeberg Pages
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Achylles Perhaps it is not fully indie, but it is free and nice to just write posts locally with Emacs and it has got command to simplify the task...
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gRegor It seems fairly portable, which is a plus. The domain option gives you more control over your URLs and online identity.
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Achylles *commands
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Achylles Perhaps, experienced indieweb creators should try Codeberg.org to see up to where it fits the indie philosophy? Just a suggestion...
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gRegor What caught your interest about indieweb / what's the next thing you'd like to do?
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Achylles gRegor: the philosophy as a whole... Especially being in control of your data and virtual life...
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gRegor Nice
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Achylles I left facebook, Windows, et.al. many years ago...
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gRegor Codeberg Pages definitely seems to fit in, without even trying it. Portable files for your posts, and it supports custom domain names.
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Achylles gRegor: So, perhaps, more indies should try it?
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Achylles Achylles: So, I am happy and feeling closer to be an indie as well ;)
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gRegor Perhaps! It's a /plurality or projects here so it really depends what people need and are comfortable with
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gRegor We document our experiences and info on the wiki to help out with that. I updated https://indieweb.org/Codeberg with Pages since we didn't have that before.
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Achylles gRegor: Thx. I am feeling better now...
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Achylles I will definitely read and study more about the indie philosophy... Sounds wonderful... I was feeling hopeless just seeing the Corporation BigBrothers taking the real internet from peoples' hand...
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gRegor We have regular virtual meetups called Homebrew Website Club if you'd like to join and chat with other indieweb folks: https://events.indieweb.org/tag/hwc
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gRegor And this chat is always here, people joining from around the world. There's a few channels for different purposes, https://indieweb.org/discuss
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Achylles gRegor: thx... I will keep these addresses...
burley, pharalia, ren, tPoltergeist, gxt, plantroon, Guest4898, vroman, Maxpm, flowji, jjuran, lojik, yar, jboy, BinarySavior, rubenwardy, truethomas, GWG, r0ss, capjamesg, sm2n, ancarda, toastal, jan6, srushe, shreyasminocha, raghavgururajan, teasea, oodani, schmudde, ramsey, caleb, ludovicchabant, rhiaro, syl, fcser, lane, joshproehl, chimo, wasp, krasjet, Xe, streety, dpk, hedy-, Saphire, darylsun, vikanezrimaya_, paulgrmn, suki, victorneo, eb, alecjonathon, Menchers, oxtyped, jonnybarnes, Saphir, voxpelli, bloot, Jon, mooff, dustinm`, alephalpha0, nsh, joj, hexology, Kaja, lagomorph_, marlun, omz13, push-f, Ezri, rrix, saptaks, peterrother, bleb, sknebel, rocto, Nonsvch, mretka, oenone, hacdias, vikanezrimaya, [capjamesg], [The_Frederatio], [tw2113], [Jo], [aciccarello], [KevinMarks], [timothy_chambe], angelo_, rvalue, [Joe_Crawford], bret, tbbrown, IWSlackGateway, kleb, moose333, asarandi, jeremycherfas, fbytez, tupni, blodulv, geoffo, banane, bterry, [0x3b0b], DusteD, aaronpk, sebbu, timdream, schelcj, srijan, fury999io, Bitweasil, chee, Virtual, barnaby, sivoais, BigShip, strugee-, wagle, SimonDH, bacardi55[m], antranigv, mald0r0r, sebsel, laker, petermolnar, lanodan, cptaffe, Oclair, benji, chenghiz_, gerben, Soni, lockywolf, Guest1350, njd, distopico, helveticamono, Zegnat, tyil, trwnh, Nebraskka, anarchivist_, jmjl, milkii, jetpack_, arieh, jmac, lazcorp, gRegor and mahboubine joined the channel
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bacardi55[m] o/
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[The_Frederatio] Although still quite basic and currently not more than one page. I am starting to really grow fond of my website
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capjamesg [The_Frederatio] This blog post talks about what I mentioned last night about encoding messages in Lego: https://frugalfun4boys.com/lego-secret-codes/
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handcode Hello
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handcode good morning to people on GMT :)
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capjamesg Good day, handcode!
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[Jo] Hello
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handcode Hi Jo
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handcode @Jo
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capjamesg Apologies if I have already asked this but do you have a website handcode?
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[The_Frederatio] Oh cool so like Lego cryptographic messages
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capjamesg It isn't quite cryptography.
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capjamesg We call this encoding. Where one thing is used to represent another thing. In this case, every Lego block is a letter. Thus, a word is "encoded" in Lego.
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[The_Frederatio] Fair
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[The_Frederatio] But it does none the less although it doesn't have to entail similar quantities to cryptographic messages
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capjamesg Cryptography usually involves some kind of mathematical operation so that you have to know a particular piece of information that only you know (called a "private key") that lets you read the information.
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[The_Frederatio] Ah yes you're right I forgot that this Lego anolgy wouldn't be that hard to figure out
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capjamesg Consider a text document. It might be "encoded" using a particular sequence of supported letters. The document may only support A-Z, or it may support some symbols, or it may support every character used in every language. At the low level, there is a system that is turning those letters into numbers that the computer understands. That's encoding. There is a standard key that says A is 01, B is 10, C is 11, etc. and you're turning the lett
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capjamesg Encryption would involve finding some way that the file is entirely unreadable without a piece of information that only you know. So even if someone can open a text document
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IWDiscord <c​apjamesg>
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handcode hi
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handcode hi
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capjamesg Hi 🙂
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[The_Frederatio] Thank you for clearing it up and making it make more sense
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capjamesg You are welcome!
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gericci Hi! My personal site (that seems to behave oddly in Firefox today 🤔 ) is https://gericci.me. I've been maintaining it since 2012
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Loqi [preview] Angela P. Ricci
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Meet Feedle a New RSS Feed Search Engine" https://indieseek.xyz/2024/02/08/meet-feedle-a-new-rss-feed-search-engine/
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gericci Loqi: oh! I hope to have time to add rss to my site soon, even if I don't write that much nowadays 😦
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_tommys for my next page, i'm going to start a sort of 'monthly' journal that takes a broader view of what i've been doing, thinking about etc - i'm thinking that learning Markdown will be nice for this - i want the updates to be pretty frictionless, and i'm still pretty excited by the challenge of making what i want work on Neocities which has a lot of limitations
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_tommys i presume i would upload some kind of markdown.js that loads in the <head>, and then i refer to a separate doc (txt?) with all my updates in?
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capjamesg That is probably available.
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capjamesg An alternative is to write in markdown then use a convertor to turn it into HTML.
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capjamesg That will load faster / nicer in a browser, particularly on slower internet connections.
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capjamesg (I spend a lot of time on trains so I'm a huge advocate for things falling back well on slow internet connections 😂 )
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_tommys 😄
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capjamesg What is a weeknote?
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Loqi A week note (AKA weekly notes, weekly summary, weekly roundup, or week in review) is a post (usually a note) published at the end of the week that summarizes that week’s goals, accomplishments, events, posts, or other week-specific content the author wishes to share, similar to a monthly recap, yet for a week, and typically manually written https://indieweb.org/weeknote
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capjamesg You might find some inspiration in terms of design, etc. on that page, too ^
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capjamesg I write in markdown. I then have a Python script that turns it into HTML. If you want more details, that's a thing to discuss in #indieweb-dev.
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[Jo] I found the perfect picture to use as a header on my site. Only problem now is figuring out how to integrate a header into my sites desigb
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sknebel :D
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[tantek] _tommys, capjamesg: HTML, <head>, markdown, python, script those are all better topics for the #indieweb-dev channel. Thank you!
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Loqi [Jo] [tantek]: can you move the tech talk (header, Python) to #indieweb-dev to keep this channel more inclusive and inviting?
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[tantek] ^ exactly
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capjamesg I have already moved us there.
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[tantek] Though header is presentational. That sounds like a false positive. [Jo] that message should not have been directed at you :)
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[tantek] Thanks capjamesg!
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capjamesg I said "If you want more details, that's a thing to discuss in ⁠indieweb-dev." 😄
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[tantek] Right, perhaps a nit, but preferably before mentioning programming languages too
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capjamesg ++
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[Jo] Yee thought so!
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Mandaris Hello everyone! I hope that the day finds you well.
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capjamesg Hello Mandaris!
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capjamesg Happy Thursday!
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Mandaris I have a friend who calls in Friday Eve and that continues to make me happy.
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capjamesg I love that!
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sknebel thats a good one
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[tantek] capjamesg, the whole go live on Twitch when making coffee / espressos conversation at HWC EU made me think about what's the IndieWeb equivalent of "going live"? And do we have mechanisms setup for being notified when someone we want to see live goes live on their personal site?
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capjamesg I am not going down that rabbit hole again.
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capjamesg I had a live stream set up on my web server.
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capjamesg I could run something to start streaming.
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capjamesg Then, a window would appear on my home page where you could watch my stream.
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capjamesg But I didn't really use it.
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[KevinMarks] I used to live stream conferences and announce it on my blog
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capjamesg And through that I discovered I prefer the idea of streaming to a smaller group than having something live on my home page.
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[tantek] makes total sense capjamesg. publics++
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Loqi publics has 1 karma over the last year
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[tantek] aaronpk also had live streaming setup on his server instead of facebook live streaming
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[tantek] what is live streaming
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Loqi live streaming is the practice of streaming media (mostly audio or video) in realtime from a camera and/or microphone, rather than a recording https://indieweb.org/live_streaming
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[tantek] we should update that page and add the use-case of live-streaming making espressos 😂
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Loqi yea
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[tantek] give Loqi a high five
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[tantek] gives Loqi a high five
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Loqi eyes the high five
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[tantek] aw man, left me hangin
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gRegor If you're making a latte, would it be live steaming?
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[tantek] yoooo
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jacky had to read that twice, brain kept autocorrecting lol
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gRegor haha :)
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capjamesg [Jo] I live your blog header!
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capjamesg gRegor 🤣
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capjamesg Great pun.
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dissolve333 discord is going to keep popping up telling me to to speak on here
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dissolve333 need to get my site up at some point
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[Jo] Thank you [capjamesg]
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[Joe_Crawford] Did anyone share a photo of the magnetic board from San Diego IndieWeb Camp? I thought of it today: https://artlung.com/blog/2024/02/08/typography/
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Loqi [preview] [Joe Crawford] Typography and Nick Simson’s 26 Days of Type
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[tantek] I have a bunch of them I need to upload
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DusteD [tantek], about going live on ones own site, wouldn't RSS be a reasonable notification method for this ? bandwidth is usually a bit more difficult, I've done some livestreaming with nginx and the rtmp module for it, but at 1000 mbit upload, it's difficult to support many clients
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DusteD and 1000m uplaod is probably the most one can expect of a consumer-grade isp
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DusteD *upload
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[tantek] RSS-- is bad for notifications because it is not realtime. It is only a feed file and has nothing to do with notifications. Further discussion about plumbing solutions for notifications should go to #indieweb-dev
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Loqi hey DusteD [tantek], that's a lot of dev jargon! nginx, RSS, RTMP... can you move to #indieweb-dev?
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Loqi RSS has -1 karma in this channel over the last year (-2 in all channels)
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[tantek] yup
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aaronpk gRegor++ for steamy pun
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Loqi gRegor has 9 karma in this channel over the last year (91 in all channels)
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aaronpk what is realtime?
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Loqi Realtime generally refers to a user experience where content is updated live; for example: a new comment shows up on a page while you're viewing it, or chat notification "your friend is typing a message." https://indieweb.org/Realtime
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[Joe_Crawford] @tank
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aaronpk even youtube's notifications about livestreaming aren't actually realtime, so I don't think that should be considered a requirement for a "going live" feature on indieweb sites eitehr
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[tantek] aaronpk really? even if you have the YouTube native app?
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aaronpk yep
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cambridgeport90_ Have we figured out how to do livestreaming on personal sites,yet?
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[Joe_Crawford] [tantek] when you do get to it please mention here along with "san diego" -- I want to add it to my post. Zero rush whatsoever.
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aaronpk there's absolutely no guarantee you will get a notification even if you click the bell
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aaronpk youtube prioritizes the notifications it sends out based on how likely you are to interact with it, and the notifications can also roll out slowly
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aaronpk so you *might* get a notification, and that notification might be a minute or more after they went live
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aaronpk cambridgeport90_: yes there are a number of ways documented on the wiki!
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[tantek] aaronpk, this sounds like you can configure it to always get notifications of particular channels going live: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/3382248
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aaronpk you'd think so
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aaronpk but it's not actually a guarantee
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aaronpk just ask anyone who has actually tried to get youtube notifications from a specific person
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[tantek] lol apparently indeed: https://www.reddit.com/r/DrDisrespectLive/comments/lih8pl/youtube_live_notifications/
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aaronpk owncast supports browser notifications that even work on iOS now! https://owncast.online/docs/notifications/
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gRegor It's so bad that "subscribe AND click the notification bell" is a common phrase on YT and even that isn't so reliable, heh
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DusteD In general, acceptable latency is considered to be less than 100 milliseconds for most applications, hard-realtime is way less, but still, 100 ms is hard to do without an active connection I think
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aaronpk that's very context dependent and again not something i would make a prerequisite
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aaronpk many streams run with 30 seconds delay and it's fine
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DusteD most people will be happy if they're notified within some minutes, anyone going online must anticipate a period of "starting the stream" time so that those who want to watch from the "beginning" can prepare (such as find a quiet spot or talk to people around them that they'll do this thing)
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DusteD the actual streaming stuff depends on the delivery method, but I understood this was about how to let the world know you're "going live"
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DusteD aaronpk, I agree that actual latency is not very important, even on twitch it's interesting to note that.. the latency of the video feed itself is often much less than the latency of the notification that someone you watch went live
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DusteD watch/follow/want to watch
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[Al_Abut] [aciccarello] I loved your recap of the San Diego event. Reading that was one of the highlights of my week.
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[Al_Abut] Motivating me to do my own recap and organize the photos. My current plan is to share a semi-private draft post and circulate it around to get permission to post from people, keep it off the broader feeds and wiki until it’s ok.
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[aciccarello] Thanks! It was good to look back. And I'm glad I pushed the post out the door even if it wasn't perfect.
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[aciccarello] Permission seems like a good idea with photos
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[Al_Abut] Yeah, I try to be good about asking people real quick before I snap, but I also like collecting candid ones from a distance.
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[Al_Abut] I also like giving people credit, especially if it’s a link to their personal site in our group or to their IG if they’re a cycling buddy.
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bacardi55[m] It was very unlucky to finaly find a hugo very minimal theme simple enough that I want to use it as a new base for my website… Just after making my current theme indieweb / microformat ready… Now I have to redo it all -_-"
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mahboubine bacardi55[m]: mind sharing your website?
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bacardi55[m] mahboubine: sure: bacardi55.io - but the new theme won't be deployed tonight, that's more for next week (I guess)
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mahboubine bacardi55[m]: I skimmed through your indie web article, you seem to be against implementing webmentions but interested in reading response articles to your own.
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mahboubine excuse my ignorance: but aren't webmentions supposed to do exactly that?
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bacardi55[m] I'm more against likes and reposts
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bacardi55[m] Or short comments (not against, but don't want to see them on my site)
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mahboubine okay I can get behind that
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aaronpk there is absolutely no obligation to publish or even view likes/reposts on your site when you receive webmentions
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bacardi55[m] I know, I don't show any webmentions on my site (at least at this stage)
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bacardi55[m] What I'm saying is that I'm a big fan of the like system in general