#indieweb 2024-03-19

2024-03-19 UTC
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gRegor I read it as a temporary demotivating factor, that they didn't have a "brand name" they were sure they wouldn't want to change, but they did find one eventually
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gRegor Under "3. Uncertain identity"
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jacky ^ yeah
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[tantek] I mean we openly acknowledge that with the challenges of picking a domain name right?
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[tantek] that feels like more of a challenge to being on the indieweb than against a more general "cool URLs don't change"
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jacky ah fair yeah
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "Displaying Webmentions Extension for Datenstrom Yellow" https://lifeofpablo.com/blog/displaying-webmentions-extension-for-datenstrom-yellow
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[lcs] I just realised I’ve been using the wrong post format for sharing links. Repost is apparently something entirely different!
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[lcs] What would be the correct post format for sharing links with a partial quote + commentary?
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[lcs] Reply doesn’t feel quite right
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[lcs] Repost stood out as the correct one to me, because it has echoes of old Twitter “RT: ” before the official retweet function was implemented. Sometimes people would just do “RT: Tweet content” and sometimes prepend a comment like so “Awesome! RT: Tweet content”
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[lcs] A reply is just a reply a reply. Doesn’t really convey the notion that sharing is the main objective
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[lcs] But I realise you’ve probably already had all of these discussions, so want to understand what you all decided 😄
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[contact898] ↩️ i use like, but bookmark might be more appropriate
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[qubyte] ↩️ That sounds like a bookmark to me too. I keep both links and bookmarks together in a “links” feed.
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[qubyte] ↩️ Sorry, by link I mean repost, so reposts and bookmarks are together in a feed.
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bacardi55[m] [lcs]: I asked that myself not long ago because i was a bit confused between likes/reposts/bookmarks.. Ended using bookmarks but not sure if it was the best... But works ^^
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[tantek] Much of these questions are answered in the /quote page
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[Murray] what is a quote
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Loqi “ A quotation is a type of response post that is primarily a subset of the contents of another post, and often has a citation of that other post https://indieweb.org/quote
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[tantek] Yes. In particular https://indieweb.org/quotation#Instead_use
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[Murray] Interesting, I've somehow not come across quote posts before. I also use bookmarks, but this makes me think that a quote would likely be the better option. There's no mention of posts that contain multiple quotes (from a single source) though? Are there any examples of that? Happy to go to #indieweb-dev to continue implementation stuff
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[lcs] Thanks! I ended up looking at quotation. Doesn’t look like it’s supported out of the box with the Indieblocks plugin, which is what I’m using to generate the post types.
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[lcs] Maybe I’ll just go with the bookmark, since it seems to be what other people are using for this purpose (even though it feels “wrong” because what I’m doing here doesn’t align with my interpretation of a bookmark, at all)
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[lcs] ↩️ Thanks guys!
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[lcs] ↩️ [qubyte] so “bookmark” if you’re partially quoting and/or adding commentary, and “repost” if you’re republishing the full post you’ve linked to?
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[Murray] Out of interest, what is that definition of a bookmark?
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[lcs] My personal interpretation of the term is just saving something to be able to reference it later.
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[lcs] It’s distinctly asocial!
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[lcs] Which is why I get confused
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[Murray] Yeah, that's fair, I think I'd agree that it's less _social_ than a "like" or "comment" 😄 I quite like them, though, as it feels like more of an honour (in some ways) that someone not only read something you wrote, but also wanted to record it permanently :blsuh
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[Murray] dang'it... /:blsuh/😊
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[lcs] I don’t disagree at all. But to me, there’s an inward directionality implied by the term “bookmark” that is at odds with what I want to do when I’m sharing a link. Even if you share the bookmark, you’re just letting someone peer into your bookmarks. What I’m doing with links is the opposite — I’m noting the link and writing a comment to share! It has outward directionality.
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[lcs] If that makes sense at all.
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[lcs] But these are just my personal interpretations!
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[Murray] Absolutely, yes! I would also distinguish a "share" from a "bookmark", hadn't really considered that. I use bookmarks on my site as a long-term information store. There's a feed if anyone was interested in following it, but it's definitely a "by me, for me" section. A "share" would have a completely different structure to it. Interesting!
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[lcs] Yeah that’s exactly it! A bookmark is stored information. A share is “this is so great you just have to look at it!”
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[Murray] Agree, was just thinking that the primary focus of a "share" to me is less about information capture, and more about amplifying something that I think more people would enjoy. Effectively boosting the discovery potential of a piece of content.
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[lcs] 💯
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[lcs] Couldn’t have said it better myself.
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[lcs] I tried, but I couldn’t 😂
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[lcs] What I’m trying to understand is which indieweb post type is the right for the latter action. “Boosting the discovery potential of a piece of content” (that perfectly encapsulates my intention!)
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[Murray] There doesn't really seem to be one. I was just reading through the /share page and... that's a _loaded_ page, not touching that 😄
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[Murray] Given that the action is really boosting *discovery* of content, I wondered if there was a /discover, but that just redirects to /discovery, not quite the same thing. Can't really find anything else
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[lcs] Alrighty, that’s comforting in a way, because I also couldn’t find anything ideally suited for the purpose.
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[lcs] And I feel it also vindicates me for thinking that “repost” was the correct option on a cursory glance a good while back
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[Murray] I can totally see that line of logic, yeah
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[Murray] I guess another way to think about it is that microformats are inherently outwardly facing. They exist to allow other tools outside of your site to understand the content within it. In that context, any microformat should be considered "social", with the intent that other people see/understand/consume it. So perhaps "bookmark" isn't a particularly clear term, but within that context – that it *is* outwardly facing, simple because it's a
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[Murray] microformat – it works for what you want? I mean, what else would an outwardly-facing bookmark _be_, if not a pseudonym for a "share"?
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[Murray] (is that gonna trigger Loqi? 😬)
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[lcs] Yeah, yeah, I’m not interested in starting a revolution here. Like I mentioned earlier, I’m sure these discussions have already been had, so I just want to understand, given my intent, what the correct action (or post type, in this context) is. It seems the consensus _is_ that bookmark is the way to go, so I’m just gonna go with that!
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[lcs] Your explanation is fine, and one I can parrot when I tell other people why we’re doing it this way 😉
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[lcs] And it looks like you avoided the bothammer!
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[Murray] Or Loqi is sleeping :shushing_face:
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[Murray] I'd be interested to hear some other takes on it. Could be worth exploring more. Just though it might be a useful framing. Definitely an interesting look at the topic 🙂
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[lcs] Yup let’s see if anyone else has an opinion on the matter. But for now, thanks for helping me figure it out
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[lcs] Love the colours on your site btw!
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[Murray] Thanks, I'm hoping to find some time this year to focus on a redesign in some ways, but the colours will certainly be sticking around!
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[lcs] Yeah I just read that. I definitely think you should keep them 😄
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[qubyte] ↩️ Yes for the bookmark, no for the repost. A repost is little more than a link. Example: https://qubyte.codes/links/1564517844324
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Loqi [preview] [Dr. Mark Stanley Everitt] Creating my logo animation - cassie.codes
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[qubyte] ↩️ It’s like a boost in mastodon or a retweet.
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[qubyte] ↩️ I rarely use them now though, because I prefer to add the reason _why_ I’m posting the link, so bookmarks are a better fit.
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[qubyte] ↩️ Disclaimer: I could be misusing or misunderstanding the intended use of these microformats.
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[lcs] ↩️ Thanks! I think that’s closer to the “officially recommended” use case for “repost” than my interpretation of it, at least 😂
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[lcs] ↩️ ref recent discussion in the main channel
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[Scout] [Murray] cools stuff? (un)related content? me likes? recommendations? maybe recroll?
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[lcs] Recroll! That’s gotta be the one. Comes with an unspoken implication that you may be pranked by clicking any given link in there, too.
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[Murray] "Me likes" is great too 😄
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[Murray] I can't help but here Cookie Monster's voice when I read it either 😄
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capjamesg Cookie!!!
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capjamesg We have started a wiki description for two new IndieWeb channels: one for events, and another for web questions that aren't too technical (i.e. questions about HTML/CSS/JS or page layouts, debugging hosting, etc. and, not microformats, parsing, etc.). Please contribute the wiki page to help inform the discussion! https://indieweb.org/discuss#web_making_channel (Posting here for greater visibility.)
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[jeremycherfas] Excellent post AnaR++
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Loqi AnaR has 1 karma over the last year
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[jeremycherfas] And having just tried Spotify again after not using it for about three months, and being deluged with Russian and Indian boring ChatGPT “songs”, I am ready to delete my (free) account.
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Loqi hey capjamesg, [jeremycherfas], we try to keep dev talk (CSS, Microformats, ChatGPT) out of this channel, can you move to #indieweb-dev?
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[jeremycherfas] If I can work out how.
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capjamesg -> #chat for that.
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Vale Hello all!
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capjamesg Hello, Vale!
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capjamesg Welcome!
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[Murray] capjamesg++ thanks for pulling that out, good ideas!
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Loqi capjamesg has 47 karma in this channel over the last year (177 in all channels)
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petermolnar I'm checking some of the Brighton topic, re: https://indieweb.org/2024/Brighton/site-death this has a lot in common with https://indieweb.org/longevity#Brainstorming but I didn't see they got connected
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petermolnar ^ ping [Ana_R]
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[tantek] [lcs] [Murray] good discussion! agreed with the default inward-facing implication of "bookmark" most of the time, especially in many social media silo UIs. You can of course store your own bookmarks as /private_posts if you like to get that meaning!
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[tantek] for "this is so great you just have to look at it!" — that sounds literally like a /repost
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[tantek] (without the commentary)
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[tantek] or with the commentary, it's a /quote post, since presumably if you are saying "have to look at it!", then you are already including the full content directly so that your reader *can* look at it
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[tantek] if you are not including the content, but still want to express the first part "this is so great", then that's a /like post, and if your readers want to see the thing you liked, they can click through the link that is in the /like post
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[tantek] a public bookmark is more neutral, like you are not saying anything about it per se, just that you have saved it to perhaps read later, or reference in the future, or any number of "other" reasons
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[tantek] you can also use a public /bookmark post to (hash)tag a link, a way of publicly saving something and categorizing it so you can find it again in the future, or as a very lightweight / neutral way to publicly say, hey this other post over here is in these categories, so if you're following this (hash)tag, you should see this
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[Murray] I can understand the semantic arguments you're making for all of the above, but I think it ignores how people are actually using/talking about these things. A "like" is not equivalent to a "share" in usage, even if within an IndieWeb context the two have very similar outcomes on your own site. I'd use a like to say _to the author_ "oh hey, this was cool". But a share is saying to _my audience_ "this thing is cool". Different intents, different
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[Murray] mental models.
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[Murray] Because of how likes are broadly used across the social web, I would never expect one to come with any kind of commentary or additional context. They're just ways to say "hey, that's cool"
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[Murray] And I think that's broadly how webmentions with likes are being used. I'm sure there are exceptions, but the kind of "face pile" style UI does seem to be most prevalent; again, no additional comments or context
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[Murray] But overall, I think this is all just the issue of trying to permanently categorise things 😄 My use of these terms will differ from other people's use of those terms, and both will evolve over time. That's why I like your arguments for considering consuming cases for microformats more than simply considering them markup
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petermolnar My views didn't change on this: https://petermolnar.net/article/making-things-private/#silo-reactions-only-make-sense-within-the-silo
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[lcs] I didn’t quite catch your stance on “this is so great you have to check it!” @petermolnar. But I’m very much in line with most else of what you write. Particularly the “repost” as it is intended, which is not something I would do beyond “syndicating” my own content
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capjamesg Reminder that this weekend there is a Build a Website in an Hour event! https://events.indieweb.org/2024/03/build-a-website-in-an-hour-lUYv5DntQ3Sr
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capjamesg Join us in a challenge to build a website or new web page on your site in an hour.
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capjamesg We'll then spend 30 minutes showing off what we all made.
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[tantek] [Murray] I appreciate the nuance in the intended meanings! You make a lot of good points
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[tantek] I agree with you that /like is often directed more towards the author than anyone else. That said, in systems without bookmarks, people have used / do use "like" as a form of bookmarking (this was well documented back in the day when Twitter have faves / stars)
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[tantek] re: >share is saying to _my audience_ "this thing is cool"< I think that's optimistic at best for today's aggregate "share" behaviors.
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gRegor what is share
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Loqi share is a watered down verb that's used on the "social web" (and other platforms like Google's Android) to mean pretty much any action https://indieweb.org/share