#indieweb 2024-09-25

2024-09-25 UTC
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doesnm lol feed is for devs? i think normal peoples using this
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[tantek] Not really. Journalists and devs really
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voxpelli rel-alternate links are for devs ;P
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petermolnar "the feed is not linked as is should" sounds less dev-y, there.
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petermolnar as for what's the web and what't not: just because something is happening over http I wouldn't say it's web. If it's then presented, readable for a human, then it's web, that would be my split. Anything else is plumbing, and the procotol shouldn't matter, especially becase http isn't a singular protocol either: 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 quic, and so on.
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[KevinMarks] https://deadsuperhero.com/2024/09/swf-icky-feeling/
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[KevinMarks] What is womp triangle?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "womp triangle" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "womp triangle is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[tantek] bit odd. never heard that phrase before
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aaronpk i think that's the point 🙃
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petermolnar re: swf-icky-feeling and "Standards are collaborative, not competitive" from a screenshot - and that's why they're all working on XMPP. Oh, wait.
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petermolnar by the way, along the lines of using HTTP underneath, XMPP is web. So is Whatsapp. Right?
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[mattl] XMPP is web. I don’t know if WhatsApp is web or not.
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Loqi friendly reminder petermolnar, [mattl], can you move the tech talk (XMPP) to #indieweb-dev to keep this channel more inclusive and inviting?
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[snarfed] defining "web" seems like a mug's game, no official definition, everyone will have their own...
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[snarfed] ...but having said that, HTTP alone seems like an overly broad definition. that would include probably the vast majority of mobile and desktop apps that don't run in browsers but talk to their servers over HTTP
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[snarfed] "visible in browsers in some way" feels like an important additional req't
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[mattl] A web browser?
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[snarfed] ...which begs the definition point, understood
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[snarfed] but still obviously yes
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[mattl] Web browsers that only support HTTP now. They stripped out the other protocols.
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[snarfed] (and which, entertainingly, WhatsApp satisfies 😆)
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[snarfed] I don't follow
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[mattl] Is curl a browser? wget?
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[mattl] I’d say they’re user agents and not all user agents are browsers.
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[snarfed] I take your point, but I'm fine leaving that definition in spirit and not trying to play language lawyer
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[mattl] That’s why HTTP is the only thing that defines the web.
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[mattl] What is curlable
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Loqi A curlable URL is one where you can use the curl command line tool to request the URL via http(s), and receive back HTML with visible contents https://indieweb.org/curlable
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[snarfed] right, and I think many people would disagree and say mobile-only apps that happen to use HTTP to talk to their server aren't web
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[manton] This discussion reminds me of a couple blog posts I wrote 9-10 years ago… I think most of the points from back then are still relevant. https://www.manton.org/2015/09/16/the-web-without.html
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[manton] tl;dr — The web needs links and HTML. Native mobile apps shuffling data back and forth with HTTP is good but not enough.
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[mattl] I agree that the building blocks of the web are URLs, HTML and HTTP and I think the open web needs them but I don’t think it’s wrong to say something that uses HTTP is part of the web
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[tantek] nah that's just stateless internet
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[mattl] You don’t need HTML or a link to be on the web.
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[mattl] You can serve a PNG image over HTTP.
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[mattl] I forget why we’re even having this discussion now. Something about the social web foundation.
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[manton] Heh. Yeah, this has probably devolved a little from where it started. 🙂
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aaronpk but if everyone just served PNG images from URLs, that isn't really a *web*, it's just ... pictures
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aaronpk i thought the whole point of the term "web" was because of the interlinked pages
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aaronpk but yes mostly a pointless discussion lol
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[Joe_Crawford] Because most in this conversation agree that "the web" is "good" and "useful" it's appealing to try and define what is and is not web. I'm not sure what outside impact it can make though.
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[schmarty] this frustration is part of why i'm so grumpy about what I (and others!) see as a name grab for the "Social Web".
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[Joe_Crawford] You're certainly not alone if the chatter, blog posts, bsky and fediverse post comment volume is any indication.
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[schmarty] sure, ask 10 people what the "social web" is, i'm sure you'll get more than a dozen answers. but these folks have registered a corporation that claims authority. feels bad faith to me.
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[mattl] I think they’re claiming authority over trying to bring together the Fediverse
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[tantek] mattl, without links it's just a resource retrieved from the internet. so no a PNG over HTTP != web. might be on the edge / leaf of the web but is not in the web
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[Joe_Crawford] If they aim to speak for many people they must reckon with those many people and their responses.
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[mattl] If you disagree as many do with their use of social web you can just ignore it.
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[schmarty] mattl: i don't think that's how mindshare works lol
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[mattl] I'm also not sure what the mindshare of an organization that's been around for one day is.
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[schmarty] mattl: plenty of folks are expressing concerns which, to my knowledge, have not been meaningfully address. meanwhile "just ignore it" could also be read as "let the org say whatever they want without challenging it", which sounds like silencing to me. 😕
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[mattl] There's plenty of mistakes on the website they just launched, so I'm happy to see them correct stuff.
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club Europe/London is starting soon! Join us! https://events.indieweb.org/2PEAkowQI7hb
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_pi_r2_0[d] ^ Discord time is wrong AFAICT
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_pi_r2_0[d] [edit] ^ Discord time is wrong AFAICT. We're live.
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gRegor Loqi had a slow start today, needs more coffee
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aaronpk this is what happens when you create recurring events :P
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gRegor Oh, there's actually events listed in Discord? I misunderstood. Yeah those get wonky. They don't follow DST changes in my experience, either.
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[tantek] hah
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club - Eastern is starting soon! Join us! https://events.indieweb.org/R7Mghtc4oj6J
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[Joe_Crawford] ^ Starting it up
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catgirlin.space ill join closer to 6 :3
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[Joe_Crawford] 👍
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catgirlin.space hihi (we talk in here if we dont wannya use voice right)
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catgirlin.space zoom was being fine and then it dropped out for a bit :( attending while sitting outside was probably not the greatest idea lol...
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_pi_r2_0[d] maybe #indieweb-events catgirlin_space0[d]?
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