#indieweb 2026-10-04

2026-10-04 UTC
#
[snarfed] yeah probably don't re-render my post in your quote, reply context, etc
fw14 and JefeDelTodos joined the channel
#
[snarfed] we can obviously do whatever we want though!
#
[snarfed] a maximalist interpretation would be, please delete your quote or reply entirely
#
[snarfed] a step back from that would be, keep your quote/reply, but don't re-render or link to my post or me
#
Loqi hey [snarfed], we try to keep jargon (render) out of this channel to make it more inviting to newcomers, can you move this to #indieweb-dev?
#
[snarfed] sigh
#
[snarfed] and then another step back would be, don't show my post itself, but you can still link to it (and/or to me)
#
[snarfed] I dunno 🤷
#
[snarfed] the fediverse and atmosphere generally do the middle one. the quote/reply is still visible on its own, with an "empty" quote/reply context box that doesn't link to the original post or its author
vikanezrimaya joined the channel
#
glitzeor4444 thanks [snarfed]!! 😄
JefeDelTodos, deathcomestotime and cotsuka joined the channel
#
[tantek] I think we need real world examples, even from Masto or Bs that demonstrate the various needs and desired outcomes
#
[tantek] Feels like something that could easily be over complicated and over designed
#
[snarfed] definitely
jonnybarnes, powerLien1, aldur65423, AtleoS and HobbyBuilder joined the channel
#
HobbyBuilder Hi
HobbyBuilder, toastal and ivyauth joined the channel
#
[tantek] Ho
powerLien joined the channel
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
valerieflynn I'm in the process of developing a website class for my local community college continuing ed department.
#
valerieflynn It's going to be for novices to learn options how to create websites with no coding and without AI.
#
valerieflynn I'm going on teach about the basics of Hosting, Domains and website software, (specifically WordPress & Publii).
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
valerieflynn I was planning on promoting IndieWeb's wiki as a good resource for beginning their learning journey.
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
valerieflynn Anyone have recommendations on good hosting, website learning resources and/ or things I should add into the class?
brennan_ joined the channel
#
[tantek] I'd recommend against WordPress for beginners unless you're only talking about their hosted platform and even then it's too steep of a step to go from there to self hosted
#
[tantek] I'd suggest omg.lol and http://micro.blog and setting up a free static HTML+CSS site on GitHub as three options to consider depending on what they want to do with their site
jboy joined the channel
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
valerieflynn I'll check out the other two ones you recommended.
#
valerieflynn I was thinking self hosted WordPress.
#
valerieflynn Why do you recommend against it?
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
ivyauth joined the channel
#
valerieflynn [edit] I was thinking of self hosted WordPress to start with. Not on WordPress.com.
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
valerieflynn Why do you recommend against WordPress for novices?
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
valerieflynn I'll check out the other two ones you recommended.
#
valerieflynn Sorry for the edit. I'm on Discord and totally forgot not to edit.
jonnybarnes and oodani joined the channel
#
[snarfed] wordpress is pretty heavy, especially self-hosting. PHP, MySQL, filesystem, etc. if those are all in scope for what you want to teach, then sure! but it's a lot for people who aren't already technical
#
valerieflynn Ah, I barely deal with those aspects of it. But you make a good point.
cotsuka, jonnybarnes and brennan joined the channel
#
simpleauthority [manton]: [manton]: My server was requiring it -- I ended up just making my server more lenient and allowing non-PKCE auth requests, since micro.blog's client seems like the best option for posting from iOS atm.
JefeDelTodos joined the channel
#
simpleauthority Thanks for your work, btw!
JefeDelTodos, cotsuka, coldfeet, jaime, jonnybarnes, toastal, kepler, brennan, aldur65423 and ZodiacalComet joined the channel; toastal left the channel
#
wturrell valerieflynn: you might well find a hosting provider you like that'll manage your self-hosted install for you (i.e. take care of the database, PHP upgrades and so on), as an alternative to wordpress.com (I really *don't* recommend WPEngine…) WP is pretty easy to setup and look when you're familiar with managing web servers, but that assumes a lot of sysadmin knowledge (you want to feel reasonably confident about security
#
wturrell issues as well as being able to fix things when they break etc.)
cotsuka, jonnybarnes, alex_127_0_0_1, arbs09, gordinator, jak2k, taitch, coldfeet, ax562 and [manton] joined the channel; karjala left the channel
#
[manton] simpleauthority: Great! I have the PKCE change ready to go, so it should be in the next release.
jonnybarnes, deathcomestotime, [manton], deathcomestotim1, cotsuka and ripple34 joined the channel
#
ripple34 hi!
#
[snarfed] hi ripple34!
brennan joined the channel
#
[trovster] https://kevquirk.com/privacy-and-webmentions interesting discussion in the comments about privacy, webmentions, and expectations.
cotsuka, brennan_, brennan, Kaptan, JefeDelTodos and fw14 joined the channel
#
[snarfed] [trovster] yeah this comes up every now and then. https://indieweb.org/backfeed#Discussion , https://sebastiangreger.net/2018/05/indieweb-privacy-challenge-webmentions-backfeeds-gdpr , https://ascraeus.org/micro/1525556293/
thatoddshade and JefeDelTodos joined the channel
#
[snarfed] my sense, maybe oversimplified, has been that there's a difference and norms and expectations between a couple different camps
#
[snarfed] one group "grew up" with the web/internet in the 1990s and 2010s, with blogs and RSS and Google and mashups etc, and sees redistributing (etc) public posts as a core part of the social contract of the web, and part of why it succeeded
#
[snarfed] another group "grew up" with the web later, maybe later 2010s and 2020s, when blogs/RSS/Google/mashup culture were way less central, silos more so. that group expects that you should get consent to do anything with anyone else's posts or content, including redistributing them
#
Loqi friendly reminder [snarfed], that's a lot of dev jargon! RSS... can you move to #indieweb-dev?
#
[snarfed] Loqi no
#
[snarfed] (personally I think both sides have valid points)
[Tabitha] joined the channel
#
[snarfed] the main difficulty with the consent side is that they're often based in the fediverse, and hold up the fediverse as consent-oriented, which may be true culturally, but it's *not* how ActivityPub federation itself works. AP federation is generally default-on, not opt-in consent based. you have to go out of your way to block users, or domains, or set up an instance to require opt-in federation
[Tabitha] joined the channel
#
[trovster] Interesting about the two camps. I’m from the former. I could see the differences, with silos and consent. But then I find it funny they're effectively saying they're OK with giving consent to mega-corps who abuse the data, but not with small, homegrown websites! Strange that.
#
[snarfed] they're (often) not ok consenting to mega-corps either. hence focusing on the fediverse, not eg facebook or tiktok
JefeDelTodos, alex_127_0_0_1 and arbs09 joined the channel
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
valerieflynn Thank you wturrell!
#
valerieflynn Why don't you recommend WPEngine?
#
valerieflynn What hosting services would you to students?
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
jonnybarnes and JefeDelTodos joined the channel
#
jak2k [snarfed]: Consent is a social construct. It's respecting someone's decision despite no one forcing you to respect it.
#
jak2k Robots.txt is a good example. It's a way someone can express consent and you respect it because you're not an asshole.
#
jak2k Most Fediverse softwares have similar consent markers build it. Some people however don't respect that and they will get an according reaction.
JefeDelTodos joined the channel
#
jak2k valerieflynn: WordPress is a huge and old PHP software. That means it's quite a maintenance burden compared to other option.
#
jak2k [tantek] already suggested two good options. I'd also throw https://bearblog.dev/ into the room. (The dev is quite cool and anti slop.)
#
jak2k If you decide to do code, Makko might be a nice option: https://makko.starlightnet.work/ It has a very strong policy against slop and has a quite nice tutorial. But it would be coding.
#
jak2k When you opt for something with static files (like Makko), you could provide a file server for them where they get a sublevel domain automatically.
#
[tantek] I'd also agree with bearblog as an addition
#
[snarfed] jakk sure! to be clear, I'm pro consent in general, I'm not arguing against it
#
[snarfed] but the mismatch between the broad culture of the fediverse and its expectation that everything there is opt-in and consent-based, vs the reality that ActivityPub federation itself is largely opt-out and _not_ consent based, is a very real, open problem
#
Loqi friendly reminder jak2k, [snarfed], we try to keep dev talk (PHP, ActivityPub, federation) out of this channel, can you move to #indieweb-dev?
#
[tantek] agreed, that plus the robots txt talk is more #indieweb-dev
#
[snarfed] sure. those terms are peripheral details, but I'll find other non-dev terms, eg "plumbing," "implementation," etc
#
[tantek] I mean it's interesting to discuss the explicit or implicit aspects of consent built into both protocols and software. that wasn't a shut down, I meant to divert the discussion
JefeDelTodos, ghorsey and cotsuka joined the channel
#
ghorsey Hello indie web!
#
jak2k Consent doesn't even have to be technical! My bot (<https://goto.jak2k.eu/@fagbot>) definitely requires consent. And that's granted by following it.
#
jak2k Many bots are like this! @remindme@mstdn.social also only interacts after you ask it to.
#
jak2k ghorsey: Welcome! Do you already have a website or are you still getting started?
#
[capjamesg] Welcome ghorsey!
#
valerieflynn Thank you jak2k!
#
valerieflynn Appreciate everyone's feedback!
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
valerieflynn My students may not want to actually blog. They may want a simple website.
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
#
valerieflynn People's thoughts that the web server and CPanel might be a rather large learning curve folks are very valid.
#
valerieflynn I have taken that into consideration for the class.
#
IWDiscord <v​alerieflynn>
ghorsey joined the channel
#
ghorsey I had a site years ago, and just decided to rebuild it. It's a still early. It's unstyled, but supports web mentions and generated with astro... http://www.geoffhorsey.com
#
ghorsey I'm tired of social media and big tech...
#
ghorsey I'm planning on a micro blog, poetry and maybe articles
bterry joined the channel
#
[capjamesg] Congrats on rebuilding your website!
#
[capjamesg] I too love the human process of making software 🙂
#
ghorsey Ty!
#
ghorsey I've also been getting into self hosting.. For example all my code is hosted in forgejo server put of my house, then syndicated to github...
#
[tantek] I would not make beginners struggle with either WordPress (with it's massive feature set / UI) nor with CPanel. I would expect both of those to discourage most new people
ghorsey joined the channel
#
jak2k ghorsey: Do you already have a web feed?p
cotsuka and ghorsey joined the channel
#
ghorsey Web feed? Like an rss feed, or something else? Nothing yet. I was planning on rss..
Kaptan, ghorsey and cotsuka joined the channel
#
jak2k Yes, RSS is an example for a web feed.
ghorsey joined the channel
#
jak2k I'd prefer Atom over RSS because it has less footguns. (The date format is less cursed, for example.)
#
Loqi friendly reminder jak2k, would you mind moving this more technical conversation (RSS, ATOM) to #indieweb-dev? thanks!
#
jak2k Sorry Loqi!
#
jak2k gives Loqi headpads
jjuran and ghorsey joined the channel
#
ghorsey Yup yup, sorry
ghorsey, jonnybarnes, cotsuka, vikanezrimaya, ghorsey_, barnaby, ivyauth and [KevinMarks] joined the channel
#
[KevinMarks] https://bsky.app/profile/older.bsky.social/post/3mx3hc7wgpk2b
cotsuka, mxtms, barnaby, fw14 and jonnybarnes joined the channel
#
[tantek] Can't tell what points those posts are making. [KevinMarks] maybe put such link dumps in #indieweb-stream ?
barnaby joined the channel