#dev 2016-07-06

2016-07-06 UTC
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bear PFS is perfect forward secrecy
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loqi.me created /PFS (+58) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by bear" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronparecki.com edited /IRC (-167) "update to reflect new channels" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk looks like the logs no longer show who edited a wiki page - always says "Loqi edited" https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2016-07-04
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Loqi grins profusely
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tantek gives Loqi a stern look
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Loqi thanks, tantek!
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aaronpk oh weird
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tantek just doing some QA :)
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tantek.com edited /IRC (-4) "-camp (one more)" (view diff)
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aaronpk ha how'd i miss that one
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tantek that's what the second pair of eyes is for :)
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+77) "fix online chat link, note instructions to click the blue Join the Chat button" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+35) "limit the width of the content area" (view diff)
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aaronpk what do you think of that?
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tantek that seems like a reasonable patch since the layout itself isn't adaptive to different widths
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aaronpk tantek: i'm confused about this edit https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page&diff=29315&oldid=29314 why did you insert the code of conduct link in between and breaking the bullet list?
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tantek maybe an inadvertant line break?
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tantek it was meant to go on the same point as principles, since it overlaps with that
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tantek yeah oops good catch
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aaronpk ah got it
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tantek reload
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:icon 4611 white.png]]""
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tantek what is indiewebcamp.com
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "indiewebcamp.com" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek indiewebcamp.com was the primary site of the IndieWeb community from 2011 to 2016-07-03. As of 2016-07-04, we renamed the main site and identity from IndieWebCamp to IndieWeb.
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loqi.me created /indiewebcamp.com (+203) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek I'll take a shot at updating /indieweb.org aaronpk
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aaronpk thanks
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aaronpk i'm working on something for the home page
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tantek new content? I've been filing issues for "larger" changes in github
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tantek to capture the problems first (and encourage community discussion)
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aaronpk design changes for the existing content
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aaronpk the new content makes this much easier to design for
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tantek yes that's the kind of thing I'm capturing - design changes
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tantek e.g. https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues/31
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aaronpk that's what i'm doing :)
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tantek ah great just saw your comment
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tantek also it looks like you fixed this? https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues/30
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aaronpk just did
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tantek and any comments on this? https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues/29
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tantek this is why I was insistent on doing content / copy-edits first
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tantek and then capturing / discussing design changes
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tantek before worrying about any plumbing futzing
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tantek I bet we'll be able to get 90% there in just a couple of days of edits
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tantek what is indieweb.org?
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Loqi indieweb.org is a website in development to present indieweb ideas in a form more incrementally accessible to generations beyond generation 1 https://indieweb.org/indieweb.org
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gRegorLove max-width helps readability, but looks weird on HD screen.
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message 6 hours, 23 minutes ago: I resolved the issue you added to https://indieweb.org/2016/homepage#Issues could you take a look? Also advocating using GH issues for new issues (link at that link). Thanks!
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gRegorLove Also, hm, what happened to my custom css...
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gRegorLove looks
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:icon 31635 white.png]]""
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aaronpk looks weird on hd screens?
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gRegorLove Ah, I was on http not https, not logged in.
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:icon 2003 white.png]]""
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gRegorLove aaronpk: Yeah, the right half of the content area is just whitespace now. The header "bar" still spans the full width.
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gRegorLove I don't have a good solution, just noting it looks weird.
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aaronpk ah yeah. i couldn't figure out how to make the header bar stop at 800px too
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tantek I may be able to help with that
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gRegorLove When we upgrade MediaWiki, newer Vector should be much more responsive
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aaronpk good point
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gRegorLove Actually, if the header bar stopped at 800px too and the right part of the page used the same bg color as the left sidebar (#f3f3f3), that might look better.
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gRegorLove fiddles with custom css
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aaronpk what is the indieweb?
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Loqi The indieweb is about owning your domain and using it as your primary identity, to publish on your own site (optionally syndicate elsewhere), and ownyourdata https://indieweb.org/indieweb
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aaronpk hmm
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (+456) "an attempt at adding colored backgrounds to the home page sections as described in https://github.com/indieweb/wiki/issues/31" (view diff)
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aaronpk !!
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aaronpk suggestions/edits welcome
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+79) "we don't use Discussion pages, so hide them" (view diff)
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gRegorLove aaronpk++ for hiding talk pages
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Loqi aaronpk has 178 karma
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gRegorLove Hmm, need to try the homepage without my custom link colors. Definitely don't look good with the bg colors :)
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tantek lol
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gRegorLove Default link colors fail contrast check on "Joni the IndieWeb" section
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aaronpk yeah the link colors need work now
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aaronpk need to add css classes to the colored backgrounds and then change the link colors in common.css
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aaronpk i only added inline styles on the home page just now
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tantek.com edited /indieweb.org (+4203) "document current use as of today (main site, 2016 camps, chat, etherpad, news), rewrite negative General Issues as instead primarily positive How Tos, with "avoids" only as specific exceptions" (view diff)
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tantek I've rewritten the negative General Issues with subdomains etc. into more positive How To brainstorms here: https://indieweb.org/indieweb.org#How - looking for review / feedback!
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tantek Also I tried to do a big factual update to the top of https://indieweb.org/indieweb.org that just lists all the ways we are using indieweb.org now including subdomains
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tantek also worthy of review - especially did I miss any *existing* (not proposed) subdomains that we're using? and why?
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tantek.com edited /indieweb.org (-227) "/* Brainstorming */ simplify general description" (view diff)
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colintedford.com edited /Main_Page (+239) "white-box "Join" & "Beyond" for better contrast; add color to HWC & IWC" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /indieweb.org (+155) "/* How do I document community problems */ issues links" (view diff)
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colintedford aaronpk: I tried a couple things on the homepage
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tantek wow those are quite some changes!
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colintedford "Join" & "Beyond" were a little hard to read b/c low contrast. I tried lighter shades but they didn't seem right for the boldness of the content.
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colintedford Tried white box for content on colored background -- not convinced it's the way, but it's mroe readable.
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colintedford s/mroe/more
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Loqi colintedford meant to say: Tried white box for content on colored background -- not convinced it's the way, but it's more readable.
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colintedford Also added color to HWC & IWC sections
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colintedford Oh, for Join & Beyond I also tried darker color w/ white text but then the links were hard to see.
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tantek colintedford this is an improvement over what we had yesterday. thank you
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tantek appreciate the thoughtful iteration
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colintedford tantek: Thanks! You saw aaronpk started the color, right?
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tantek ah yes, just noticing that
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tantek great iterative collaboration then
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tantek I agree with your points about contrast and readability
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aaronpk interesting
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aaronpk i'm not a fan of the white box on the colored background, it adds too many lines
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aaronpk but i do see your point about the contrast
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colintedford Mmm, the padding could be smaller, I didn't fiddle with it
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colintedford but yeah, contrast by whatever means
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colintedford.com edited /Main_Page (+8) "adjust padding" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, when you have a chance, please review https://indieweb.org/indieweb.org - there's more edits I'd like to make but I think this is a good enough improvement for now
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tantek in particular I'm looking for a review of the "How" subsection https://indieweb.org/indieweb.org#How - if that looks good to you (feel free to make prose edits / improvements as you see fit), I'd like to move to just after Why
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tantek which reminds me, the Why could go after the "Whats"
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tantek.com edited /indieweb.org (-35) "move Why to after the "Whats"" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+73) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+156) "add light colors for links" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+125) "more styles for inverted text color" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (-70) "improve contrast of colored backgrounds by setting text and links to a lighter color and larger font size" (view diff)
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colintedford ^ Larger font size in general would be good, but I imagine the newer Vector will take care of that.
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aaronpk well that's different https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-07-05-21-04-31.png
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aaronpk that's all inline styles on the home page
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aaronpk hiding everything
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colintedford interesting!
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colintedford I have a blue link showing ion the inverted area -- maybe need to cover a.external:visited?
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aaronpk ah probably missed that one
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colintedford Hm, no, I clicked it and now it matches.
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colintedford Not sure why it was blue
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colintedford it was the "join the discussion" link w/ padlock
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aaronpk i want to try saving this inline css
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aaronpk see how long it takes tantek to notice ;-)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (+244) "hide all mediawiki stuff from the home page" (view diff)
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colintedford :D
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aaronpk well well well https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-07-05-21-16-53.png
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colintedford Oh man
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+93) "add max width class for home page" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (+352) "full width color bars" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (-112) "add header bar with menu items (css todo in [[MediaWiki:Common.css]])" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+236) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /MediaWiki:Common.css (+81) (view diff)
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aaronpk bets on whether tantek thinks i've replaced the home page with an HTML file when he gets back? >:-D
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aaronpk hopefully he doesn't check these logs first ;-)
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tantek.com created /Discuss (+21) "create because new homepage links to it ;)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+104) "direct links for Matrix and Slack joining" (view diff)
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tantek nice work aaronpk. and it looked incremental enough that I figured it was some clever wiki hacking. and I checked /Special:RecentChanges before the logs ;)
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tantek (plus the section [edit] links give it away ;) )
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tantek only think I would re-add to the header is a Search [__________] box to the right of "Discuss Events"
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tantek what is indieweb.org?
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Loqi indieweb.org is the primary website of the IndieWeb community https://indieweb.org/indieweb.org
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tantek what is indieweb?
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Loqi The indieweb is about owning your domain and using it as your primary identity, to publish on your own site (optionally syndicate elsewhere), and ownyourdata https://indieweb.org/indieweb
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pfefferle aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 179 karma
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pfefferle aaronpk don't forget the sponsors footer!
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tantek.com edited /IndieWeb:About (+4) "better redirect since now it is one of few links in the homepage footer" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /indiewebcamp.com (+56) "see also" (view diff)
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jkphl.is edited /Planning (+32) "/* Berlin */" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /Main_Page (-2) "/* What is the IndieWeb? */ undo invert for contrast" (view diff)
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petermolnar.net edited /Events (+287) "/* September */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.net edited /Events (+12) "/* September */" (view diff)
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petermolnar.net created /2016/Brighton (+1173) "Created page with "= <span class="p-name summary">IndieWebCamp Brighton 2016</span> = <div class="p-description description"> The importance of owning your data is getting more awareness. To grow ..."" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Whoa. No sidebar on the wiki?
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voxpelli gRegorLove: only for the front page, right?
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gRegorLove Yeah
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gRegorLove I like it. The first three colored sections make me think of Neapolitan ice cream though :)
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kodfabrik.se edited /indie-config (+206) "/* Pelle Wessman */ Adding link to indie-config tool" (view diff)
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gRegorLove mblaney: Captured the random chat log URL issue https://github.com/indieweb/chat.indieweb.org/issues/4
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gRegorLove Comment from my mom about the homepage: "The orange on the three icons clashes with the pink"
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aaronpk the pink background or the pink below the orange?
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gRegorLove Pink below the orange
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aaronparecki.com created /wiki/design (+902) "Created page with "== CSS == === Custom Page CSS === You can add custom CSS to a page by using the <nowiki><raw></nowiki> tag. For example, see the [https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_..."" (view diff)
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aaronpk ack who changed the background colors to HSLA?
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aaronpk now i can't copy/paste things easily
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miklb KevinMarks might have when he adjusted them for contrast?
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aaronpk i thought he just changed the text color
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miklb Was just looking at that. The link colors in my custom css don't work with the new bg colors
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aaronpk yeah blue links don't work with these background colors at all
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miklb I have the orange which really don't work in the 2nd section
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miklb also seems like the font sizes are mix-matched now
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gregorlove.com edited /wiki/design (+192) "/* Resources */ +links: webaim, 0to255" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Yeah, the font-size is boosted inline in some of those sections
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (+66) "/* What is the IndieWeb? */ change icon background to a different shade of the background it's on top of" (view diff)
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tantek mmm rainbow sorbet on the home page ;)
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tantek.com edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[indieweb]] to [[IndieWeb]] over redirect: we use this capitalization more often" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (+109) "horizontal layout for the three icons and text" (view diff)
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aaronpk there might be too many colors on the home page now
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tantek lol
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gRegorLove Now let's animate them! :)
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aaronpk i think we might need to stick to the dark one, the pink one, and then everything else is various shades of cream/yellow
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tantek Make the logo bigger ;)
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tantek the pink is kinda the odd one out - sorry to say
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gRegorLove There's a cream for that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgcX0y1Nzhs
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aaronpk hm, i wonder if the orange straight out of the logo would work.
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petermolnar the pink is too surprising in my opinion, I'd remove that
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aaronpk possibly a bit strong http://i.imgur.com/47iInDs.png
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gRegorLove Yeah, I think I prefer the more subtle change between the HWC and IWC sections
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aaronpk that's actually my least favorite part
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petermolnar with opacity 70%-80% how would that colour look aaronpk
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petermolnar ?
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GWG Reading the Micropub specification draft...wondering how to best implement parts of it.
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aaronpk subtle hue changes aren't usually a good idea
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tantek yep
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gRegorLove why not?
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aaronpk petermolnar: that's basically what the "beyond blogging" section is
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petermolnar hm
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aaronpk gRegorLove: subtle shade changes are usually better
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aaronpk within the same hue
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bear raises the colour blind card here...
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petermolnar try this colour for the pink: background:hsla(30, 100%, 80%, 1);
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bear can we get rid of the background of the part where "Join the IndieWeb" uses? or change it to the others - I'm having trouble reading the highlight text with that background
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aaronpk highlighted text?
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aaronpk the links?
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bear links
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tantek bear - you can fight kevinmarks for the contrast issues
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aaronpk we should change the link color. it's horrible the way it is right now
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bear it's only that one combination that makes my eyes hurt
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tantek FWIW I agree, the black text on saturated color is bad
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petermolnar constrast isn't always the only thing you need to check
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tantek it's not just the link color
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Loqi yea
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aaronpk yeah that's why i had it as white text
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aaronpk with off-white links
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tantek I think it was better with white text on saturated color bg
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tantek or off-white
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petermolnar we need good ol' green-on-black
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aaronpk is beginning to think that design by wiki is going to end up as bad as design by committee
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tantek petermolnar I have a blog archive page for you then :D
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petermolnar is textfiles.com a blog archive page? :)
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gRegorLove My link color via custom css is #CF4900. I've been liking it on internal pages; needs tweaking on the homepage.
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tantek petermolnar: here you go: http://tantek.com/log/2003/05.html
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petermolnar oh, neat :D
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tantek (back when I used to restyle my blog once a month and then freeze it at the end of the month)
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tantek static HTML+CSS FTW
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tantek the wiki should detect your IndieMark level when you sign-in and then alter its appearance accordingly
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tantek when you get to IndieMark level 5 or whatever it should go full on l33t green on black because why would you need anything else ;)
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petermolnar I love this idea :D
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aaronpk oh jeez
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tantek was waiting for aaronpk to lose it ;)
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miklb pops popcorn, sits back and watches bikeshed discussion :-P
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tantek hey miklb, much of this is thanks to your providing of examples of "good" project home pages ;)
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aaronpk literally bikeshedding
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tantek waits for aaronpk to literally build his own bikeshed
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tantek aaronpk ugh, the horizontal icons are very bad for the first section
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miklb tantek fair enough. And trust me, I've been through it before. Habari went through more iterations of the home page than releases of the code I think
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tantek thought I already implied that in the issue as a DO NOT do
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tantek because of the thext
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tantek s/thext/text
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Loqi tantek meant to say: because of the text
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tantek that was for the *second* section with the Join the IndieWeb
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petermolnar design was a thing back then, we all did too much redesigns :)
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tantek going to revert that because that kind of center ragged text is a known layout antipattern
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tantek no seriously
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petermolnar antipattern, but refuses to die
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miklb petermolnar design should still be a thing IMO
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petermolnar miklb not that design. it was the eyecandy one, trying out shiny new things too fast
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (-109) "Undo revision 29415 by [[Special:Contributions/Aaronparecki.com|Aaronparecki.com]] ([[User talk:Aaronparecki.com|talk]]) - no center ragged text please. leave top icon section layout as is" (view diff)
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aaronpk the "join the indieweb" section doesn't have any text that can be used as headers
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miklb petermolnar agreed, design without solving a problem is an affliction everyone's probably suffered from
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petermolnar tantek that page from 2003, I think you might break a record there; most of the blogs you're linking from that page seem to be alive; that is extremely rare
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aaronpk i think the three "principles" "selfdogfood" and "design" could work better as the 3-column bit
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tantek again no because of the amount of text
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aaronpk might need to shorten the text of principles there to avoid ragged edges
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tantek the horizontal columns layout works for calls to action
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tantek where the stacked icons/lists works well for descriptive type stuff
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aaronpk that's kind of what those are... they're all links to pages
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tantek link != call to action
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tantek lots of things are links
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aaronpk there's almost no links in the first 3 paragraphs
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tantek "Beyond Blogging and Decentralization " is clearly descriptive
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tantek whereas "Join the IndieWeb" is clearly a call to action
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tantek starts with imperative active verb etc.
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aaronpk then rewrite the three bullets under "join the indieweb" to have their first word be the action instead of a question
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aaronpk "Interested?"
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tantek yep we can cut that
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tantek on it
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aaronpk and the helper verbs "view" and "check out" aren't useful either
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+17) "/* Join the IndieWeb */ drop non-verb starts, linkify starts of bullets, bolden key calls to action" (view diff)
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aaronpk hm there's two links to join the chat room there, in the 2nd and 3rd bullets
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tantek ah will fix
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petermolnar please get rid of that pink
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aaronpk i don't think it's the pink that's the problem. i think it's the blue links on top of the pink that's the problem
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+16) "/* Join the IndieWeb */ view discussions should use new chat link" (view diff)
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petermolnar it's the pink
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tantek agreed, it's the pink
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aaronpk why?
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petermolnar both the blue-on-pink and the pink itself
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petermolnar a, ugly, b, doesn't fit the rest
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tantek looks more like a rich salmon to me but yeah, too pinkish
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aaronpk it looks great over on http://habariproject.org/en/
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petermolnar c, too much contrast
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petermolnar as in too full colour
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tantek aka too saturated
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petermolnar thanks, I couldn't remember the word
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tantek aaronpk: nah, the pink looks ugly on habari also
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aaronpk i completely disagree
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petermolnar habari has less different background colours
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aaronpk however they made it fit better with the rest of the use of colors
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petermolnar it works there
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petermolnar also
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petermolnar there, it takes up more space
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tantek green is a better "get involved" color, welcome, "go" etc.
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aaronpk we don't have any green yet in the color scheme, so that will be tricky
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tantek yep
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petermolnar on indieweb, it's too thin and doesn't sit well with the rest of the colours
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tantek but it really helps draw people to the call to actions
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aaronpk too thin I can understand
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tantek it doesn't even need to be that strong
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aaronpk we need *some* block of saturated color
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tantek also, hsla wtf? who is using hsla css colors?
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tantek aaronpk, why?
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aaronpk kevin did that when he removed my inverted text :(
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tantek sigh
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miklb I think the salmon works on hp.o because it has more negative space
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aaronpk adding a large color block helps break up the page and get rid of the "wall of text" feel where everything is the same importance
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petermolnar aaronpk ok, but that colour is not the right choice
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petermolnar it's unsettling
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petermolnar instead of invitin
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petermolnar g
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gRegorLove I still don't care for the combo of the orange-ish icons + salmon section
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gRegorLove Agreed, I like a bolder color for "Join"
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gRegorLove but not necessarily that salmon
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tantek refrains from switching to lime bg
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tantek is so tempted though
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aaronpk i have an idea
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aaronpk ew lime? no
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gRegorLove lime--
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Loqi lime has -1 karma
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tantek pulls out the aqua
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tantek actually looks pretty chill
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tantek and definitely breaks up the page
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (-48) "reduce overall number of background colors, switch to green background for "join"" (view diff)
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aaronpk aqua?
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aaronpk not like css aqua i hope
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tantek aaronpk: ugh, just lost all its life
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aaronpk i think that green complements the logo nicely since it follows the red/orange/yellow in the spectrum
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tantek no I'm much more subtle than css aqua
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tantek alright, let me try instead a smaller variant on the prev
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aaronpk after we're done i'm making an animated gif of all the wiki diffs of the home page
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+31) "go back to nice subtle bg colors, and try a soft aqua for the calls to action. color complements orange-ishes, and stands out compared to informative texts" (view diff)
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aaronpk cringe
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aaronpk that aqua does *not* work with the rest of the colors
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tantek it's far less offensive than the pink
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aaronpk nope nope
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aaronpk actually way more offensive
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aaronpk if you drop the orange backgrounds above and below then it might be okay
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tantek aaronpk: did anyone else actually like the pink?
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aaronpk i'm not saying the pink was *good*, i'm just describing relative offensiveness
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aaronpk the contrast between the aqua and the orange below is completely wrong, because they're two totally different hues *and* saturations
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tantek that's tweakable
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aaronpk so is the pink
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tantek I think the blue complements the oranges
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tantek much better than green FWIW
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aaronpk omg we need someone with real color theory knowledge in here this is ridiculous
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tantek the pink is worse because it's too close in redness while being uncanny in purpleishness
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snarfed it won't help with colors, but fwiw i *love* the new home page design
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snarfed carefully backs away from the color debate
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tantek aaronpk: ok fine I'll go get my color theory palettes book :P
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aaronpk choosing colors out of thin air is never a good idea
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aaronpk let's at least start with the colors that are in the logo
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tantek aaronpk unless the thin air is sky blue? ;)
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tantek thanks snarfed - it took a lot of content editing first to get it within reach of being restylable
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tantek so now there's that happening :)
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miklb might I suggest keeping all of the font sizes in ems instead of mixing in percentages
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tantek alright, I think the yellow could be used for call to action
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tantek let's see
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tantek except the "yellow" in the logo is way more orange
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tantek especially against light bgs
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aaronpk tantek: is this what you were going for with the aqua/teal? http://paletton.com/#uid=60q0t0kFAHm+-oWT2uAm-vT8ata
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tantek aaronpk yeah
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tantek prefer more like teal than aqua TBH
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jkphl.is edited /events/2016-07-06-homebrew-website-club (+17) "/* Nürnberg */" (view diff)
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aaronpk that one looks way better but i still think we need to drop the pastel backgrounds for it to work
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tantek interesting
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tantek I could see that
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KevinMarks Sorry for the hsl - I was trying to make it easier to tweak darkness, but it is still not easy with such sat colours
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KevinMarks The inverted text was really low contrast. A darkened version of the Orange from the logo could work
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KevinMarks Do use Lea's contrast tool to check though.
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tantek tries hacking a similar yellow
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "roughly actually yellow (as opposed to light orange in logo)" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk there you go, better?
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tantek that's what I mean by yellow as compared to the yellow-orange in the C in the logo
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aaronpk certainly better than that aqua, but now it's all just boring
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tantek KevinMarks, meh on hsl, just hack the hex ;)
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tantek so ... progress?
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tantek better boring than lifeless (what happened with the green only and the others dropped)
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aaronpk i want to just drop all the pastel
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KevinMarks Yeah, I was trying to isolate it so I could tweak L to make the white text work, but hsl is not perceptually neutral enough
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tantek I was really appreciating the pastels on the HWC and IWC sections
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tantek they're big enough blocks that the pastel is just enough to draw them apart
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KevinMarks Need munsell spaces
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tantek instead of them disappearing into a big scrolling text
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aaronpk they need something else to separate them, i don't think the pastel is effective
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KevinMarks I liked the pastels, but with white type they were borderline illegible
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aaronpk not that pastel
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aaronpk shades of *a* color would be okay. but the changing hue is awkward.
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tantek aaronpk - the other thing to do instead of the pastels is to go the other side and make them darks, like almost blacks, which would make the colors etc. in the photos "pop" more
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tantek and then you could get away with white text/links
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aaronpk you can really only use dark backgrounds like that when there's very little text
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tantek except terminal screens ;)
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aaronpk the join section would work for example
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aaronpk nobody ever claimed terminal screens were an intentional design decision
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tantek I like the yellow right now in the join over the others because right now it's the most welcoming color
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aaronpk note how the habari project uses two shades of their off-white to separate sections
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tantek not quite smiley face yellow, but it's more evokative of that
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KevinMarks Orange on black was the hot trend in the late 70s
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KevinMarks Css colors: Peachpuff
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gRegorLove I'm liking the light yellow of the Join section now
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tantek yay I got something right :)
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gRegorLove If we want "less boring" how about swapping the color of Join and Beyond Blogging?
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tantek puts away his color books
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tantek gRegorLove: I think the yellow is a the better call to action
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tantek and helps break-up the orange between the orange icon bgs, and the beyond blogging
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aaronpk the incremental light yellow -> yellow -> orange is okay now
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aaronpk the background of the events has to change though. could just reuse the colors from above
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tantek yes I could see that
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tantek try it aaronpk ?
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gRegorLove Hm, how about more symmetry between top two sections and bottom two?
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gRegorLove Heh, jinx
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miklb another suggestion would be to make the margin bottom on the <li>s .5 em
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tantek aaronpk are you editing? or shall I try copy-editing down some more?
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tantek is hoping aaronpk is fixing the event section colors
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gregorlove.com edited /Loqi (+104) "/* Ideas */ optional ! if line is directed at Loqi" (view diff)
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tantek !tell Loqi take a message.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek ;)
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gregorlove.com edited /Loqi (-16) "tweak dfn, link to /discuss" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Main_Page (+12) "use the same top background colors for the events" (view diff)
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gRegorLove what is loqi?
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the IndieWeb discussion channels https://indieweb.org/Loqi
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tantek who is Loqi?
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the IndieWeb discussion channels http://indieweb.org/User:Loqi.me
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tantek where is Loqi?
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tantek aaronpk: yes that works better
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tantek aaronpk - feel free to finetune that yellow BTW, that was my eyeballing it on my Thunderbolt cinema display (which was pretty decent color representation / correction etc.)
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tantek (better than trying to do color work on a laptop screen)
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aaronpk i still think there's something to the teal, but not sure how to make it work yet http://i.imgur.com/2LusFQi.png
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tantek you could use the teal for the link colors instead of the old blue
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tantek since subtle blue contrast is what you want there
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tantek and a more harmonious blue might work nicely
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aaronpk yeah that might be a good link color
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gRegorLove Thoughts on making the wiki footer the same dark bg as the top?
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aaronpk gRegorLove: i think that could work
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bear waits for a sample so he can try it out
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aaronpk gRegorLove: how did you change your link colors? is there a good list of class names to target?
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tantek gRegorLove, aaronpk not sure about that
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aaronpk MW seems to have a bunch of different ideas about links
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tantek because the footer stuff is not something to emphasize with such a stark contrast
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KevinMarks Check contrast of teal though. (I have a laptop display and a sideways TV attached to mine that have very different gamma, so I see variations. Contrast on a best case screen is not the best test. Try it on your phone in bright sunshine
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gRegorLove Yeah, it's kind of a mess. http://gregorlove.com/2016/06/i-am-tinkering-with-the/
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aaronpk lol thanks
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gRegorLove Just the first three lines if you're only changing links in the page content
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aaronpk div#mw-panel div.portal div.body ul li a:visited
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aaronpk wow
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bear I'm a good contrast person tester - if it doesn't have it then I won't even see it even on my retina display
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KevinMarks Can we up the default text size from 0.8em while we're doing this?
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gRegorLove #mw-panel is just the sidebar
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tantek how much of this is going to break when we update MW / Vector version?
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tantek KevinMarks, better to not mess with font-size stuff until the MW / Vector upgrades
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gRegorLove Probably a fair bit.
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KevinMarks Because that is basically saying "we made the default text 64% of what you asked for"
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tantek those will seriously impact that (likely fixing things for size in particular, e.g. on "mobile")
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gRegorLove Setting in https://indieweb.org/MediaWiki:Common.css probably won't be overwritten on upgrade though. *probably* :)
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gRegorLove I'm for setting it to 1em in there for now.
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aaronpk those settings won't be overridden, but the HTML in the new version might be different
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gRegorLove Right
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aaronpk so just don't do anything that you don't want to redo later
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gRegorLove MediaWiki still uses #bodyContent
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gRegorLove So my font-size changes should still work.
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gRegorLove Heh, on Wikipedia that font-size gets bumped to 0.875em, KevinMarks :)
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KevinMarks Set the Max-width in ems too
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tantek.com created /Template:cjk101010 (+148) "create because I used it" (view diff)
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miklb those blue links seem…odd
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aaronpk yes i wanted to try that teal
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miklb I had been playing around with gRegorLove link colors still set http://cdn.miklb.com/images/IndieWeb_2016-07-06_13-28-23.png
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aaronpk #256C61 or #369F8F
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miklb because bikeshedding is more fun than the todo list I'm staring at
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aaronparecki.com edited /wiki/design (+91) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /projects (-129) "move Red Wind back up to top section, note thedod past example (site down since 2015-???)" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /projects (+42) "/* p3k */ catfooding" (view diff)
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tantek 😂
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tantek or rather: 😹
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kodfabrik.se edited /projects (+54) "/* Jekyll */ Adding myself in the Jekyll part" (view diff)
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veganstraightedge.com created /login (+31) "redirect /login to the wiki login page" (view diff)
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tantek interesting, a bit surprised we didn't have /login page already that documented actual examples of "logging in" on indieweb sites and silos
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voxpelli what is sign-in-use-cases?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/sign-in-use-cases
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tantek heh
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aaronpk that's a great page
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voxpelli there seems to be some stuff gathered at some time at least :)
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voxpelli miklb: I think I'm ready to release it now
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tantek thanks aaronpk
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tantek now I'll go fix the dfn
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gRegorLove miklb: Note I changed my link colors on the wiki to #CF4900. Better contrast, not as bright.
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GWG Afternoon
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GWG I have an issue filed against WordPress Micropub for the capability to set a post to draft status. Is there call for that in the specification? Or do you think it is too WordPress specific
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kodfabrik.se edited /Micropub (+393) "/* CMS Examples */ Adding Jekyll example" (view diff)
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voxpelli what is draft?
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Loqi A draft in the context of the indieweb refers to a draft post, a post that an author has partially written, or otherwise does not consider finished https://indieweb.org/draft
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gRegorLove I'm interested in safe-as-draft for micropub
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gRegorLove s/safe/save/
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Loqi gRegorLove meant to say: I'm interested in save-as-draft for micropub
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voxpelli I'm not sure for my part, I think I'll probably keep my drafts in the micropub client instead
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GWG So, it is wider than WordPress and might merit attention as a property in the specification
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voxpelli GWG: I think the property would rather be on the h-entry as Micropub mostly just exposes an API to set h-entry properties
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GWG WordPress has published, draft, private, and protected
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GWG But if it is not in the specification, then what client will consistently implement it?
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GWG For example, it could be that setting the published property to something indicates a draft
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kodfabrik.se edited /Jekyll (+435) "/* Related Tools */ Adding more related tools" (view diff)
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voxpelli GWG: if it's specified by h-entry, then it's in a specification, just not the micropub specification :)
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GWG Is draft as a concept in microformats?
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voxpelli Not sure if private and protected fits into the same property as draft in the h-entry world – there are thoughts on how to deal with private and protected posts already elsewhere and I think that's separate from the draft itself
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voxpelli GWG: it's a property of the post and I think that Micropub defines no properties of the posts but leaves that all to microformats to define
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voxpelli so even if it isn't, it would have to be
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GWG The question is, how do I solve this problem?
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GWG I am confused on the steps.
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GWG By nature, a draft is a private post that might not even have a permanent URL.
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voxpelli https://indieweb.org/draft would actually argue that a draft is always private
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voxpelli s/is always/is not always/
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Loqi voxpelli meant to say: https://indieweb.org/draft would actually argue that a draft is not always private
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voxpelli I would say that the problem would be solved by figuring out how one would express draft status on a h-entry
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voxpelli maybe tantek can add some thoughts there? since he apparently does so
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gRegorLove GWG: I think since you want draft functionality, build it, then the micropub spec has real world examples.
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GWG I can build it into the server, but I am not working on a client.
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gRegorLove ProcessWire doesn't have "draft" concept built in, but does have a "published" and "unpublished" state. unpublished is only visible to logged in administrators. So effectively a draft.
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gRegorLove You can build unit tests that will ensure it works, sans client.
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voxpelli p-x-status="draft" maybe? which in micropub terms would be just x-status=draft
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GWG Good point, but designing the property is something I would want some input on.
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voxpelli that would follow the design of rsvp:s
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GWG voxpelli, good place to start.
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gRegorLove +1 for p-x-status.
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GWG Where do I document this on the wiki?
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gRegorLove /micropub#Brainstorming maybe
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GWG I want a place to put thoughts on this for input
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Loqi gives GWG a place to put thoughts on this for input
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GWG I was thinking there, but voxpelli pointed out the microformats angle. Oh well, can always move it.
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voxpelli maybe /draft#brainstorming and reference that at /micropub#brainstorming ?
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gRegorLove Seems pretty micropub-specific
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voxpelli well, tantek has documented on /draft that he already publishes drafts on his site
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voxpelli but maybe, it could be approached from two sides
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gRegorLove I think the "mf2 angle" should be reframed: what would you want to display on a post for a human to indicate it's a draft?
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gRegorLove Personally I'm not sure I would want/need to show anything, since it's just for me.
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voxpelli pretty common that you show some kind of preview/draft badge when looking at not yet public posts?
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gRegorLove Time to document on /draft :)
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gRegorLove I don't think WordPress does, unless a theme does some additional handling. IIRC it uses the post ID in the URL instead of the slug, though.
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colintedford Yeah, Wordpress only distinguishes in the url -- I think it uses a query string there that makes it clear that it's a preview.
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miklb voxpelli++
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Loqi voxpelli has 79 karma
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voxpelli One could also argue that it's up to clients to handle drafts
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colintedford I kinda wish it did put something on the page, though, or at least in the admin bar
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voxpelli So it's actually three possible parts who can be responsible for it: micropub, mf2 or the client
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miklb I believe WordPress also adds a class for drafts so you *can* distinguish in a theme
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gRegorLove I personally wouldn't want that responsibility as a client, heh
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colintedford [checks WordPress]
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gRegorLove aaronpk: "mp-* - reserved for future use" means we shouldn't add any mp-* properties, right?
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colintedford Wordpress puts a "status-draft" class on the article element
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colintedford and "&preview=true" in url
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voxpelli if the client is a progressive web app or a native app, then saving the draft locally is no problem
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gRegorLove Good point
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voxpelli gRegorLove: I think mp-* are free for other specs to add, but following similar practices as with experimental mf2 properties I guess
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voxpelli but maybe that needs to be clarified in spec?
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voxpelli gRegorLove: I think "reserved for future use" just means: Do not ever have a property of the post itself start with "mp-" as those are reserved for micropub instructions
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gRegorLove I may be thinking too specific to WP and PW, but for both of those, draft status is something outside the post. if an MP client creates a post and adds some mf2 to the post body to indicate it's a draft, it's something I would have to manually remove when I choose to publish.
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gRegorLove voxpelli: Sounds right, just wasn't sure.
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gRegorLove I think delete and update used to be mp-*
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voxpelli !tell aaronpk Maybe add some wording to the Micropub spec about what mp-* instructions are meant for and how other specs can add new ones and how one can add experimental ones similar to mf2's p-x-* (maybe mp-x-* ?)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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voxpelli gRegorLove: mf2 properties doesn't have to be saved as part of the post body – they are probably rather rarely saved as part of the post body leaving the post body as only the e-content
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voxpelli that's how I save mf2 properties in my Jekyll implementation as well: everything in YAML front matter apart from the e-content data that's saved as the markdown file
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gRegorLove Not sure I follow. Seems pretty implementation specific.
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gRegorLove "When creating posts, all other properties in the request are considered properties of the object being created." so they're properties of the h-entry
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gRegorLove Which can be invisible, but visible data is preferred
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gRegorLove That's why I was thinking of an mp-* property instead, perhaps
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aaronpk back
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Loqi aaronpk: voxpelli left you a message 26 minutes ago: Maybe add some wording to the Micropub spec about what mp-* instructions are meant for and how other specs can add new ones and how one can add experimental ones similar to mf2's p-x-* (maybe mp-x-* ?)
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aaronpk interesting discussion
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tantek voxpelli++ for another micropub implementation
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Loqi voxpelli has 80 karma
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aaronpk starting with what's visible to the user for draft posts makes sense. i believe i usually see some indication that a post is a draft, or unpublished, etc
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aaronpk in that case it might make sense for it to be included as a microformats2 property
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aaronpk in which case it would translate easily into micropub
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colintedford A dt-published value of "not yet" ;)
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tantek colintedford: that's what I use future dt-published values for!
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tantek but I have no way of distinguishing (presentationally) an unpublished draft and a scheduled post.
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tantek what is scheduled?
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Loqi scheduling in the context of the indieweb, refers to the feature of setting a specific time for a post to be published in the future https://indieweb.org/scheduled
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voxpelli aaronpk: regarding the mp-*, I can't find a reference in the Micropub spec to where mp-syndicate-to is specced either – thoughts on whether the mp-* instructions needs be specced more? mf2-style or rel-registry style or such?
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voxpelli (not sure if non-working group members can add issues to the repo, so asking here)
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aaronpk anyone can add issues for sure
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tantek and is encouraged to
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aaronpk it's actually better overall if people outside the w3c group participate in the issues
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colintedford tantek: yes, but "not yet" doesn't make you choose a date ;)
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tantek colintedford: hey that's what 990909 is for ;)
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colintedford though "all my unfinished writings will be published at this date in the future after my probable death" has some appeal
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tantek if you put your birthday into your CMS, it can auto-fill that for you, based on actuarial tables
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colintedford like how dead famous writers' stuff sometimes gets published
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colintedford tantek: :)
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voxpelli actually recently had a real encounter with draft statuses saved as a date far far far into the future. Too bad they got published with that date later on. Siterusers were amused.
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tantek not far enought into the future apparently
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tantek colintedford: "actuarial" : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084827/quotes?item=qt1535149 ;)
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colintedford tantek: nice :) "helpiing people plan for their future [posting] needs"
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colintedford s/helpiing/helping
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Loqi colintedford meant to say: tantek: nice :) "helping people plan for their future [posting] needs"
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colintedford I could see a micropub client UI having some sort of "draft/published" UI, and for drafts it would just leave out dt-published, and CMS would treat that as a draft (whatever that means in that CMS)
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colintedford assuming clients normally send dt-published
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aaronpk clients don't normally send dt-published actually, the micropub server can add that on its own
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colintedford guess that idea's out, then!
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tantek aaronpk but clients could right? e.g. for the /scheduled post use-case?
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aaronpk yes
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tantek sounds like a good optional property to document perhaps
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tantek per that use-case
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voxpelli tantek: it was rather that we didn't have a connection between publish dates and publish statuses – the two were completely separate from each other
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voxpelli aaronpk: here's an evening gift: https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/33 ;)
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aaronpk thanks :)
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KevinMarks Other silos have draft status too - blogger, medium
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KevinMarks Also Hugo does
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KevinMarks So modelling it makes sense
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tantek KevinMarks: perhaps add to /draft#Silo_Examples ?
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tantek what is a draft?
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Loqi A draft in the context of the indieweb refers to a draft post, a post that an author has partially written, or otherwise does not consider finished https://indieweb.org/draft
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tantek yep
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KevinMarks Twitter too
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tantek Twitter is only clientside right?
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KevinMarks I'll check
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kevinmarks.com edited /draft (+430) "/* Silo Examples */" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /draft (+146) "/* WordPress */" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /draft (+101) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks There we go, existing api docs linked. Status looks more common than isDraft if we want to add to micropub
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tantek because "status" isn't an overloaded term at all :P
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KevinMarks Going by the silos, it looks like draft is a thing though
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kevinmarks.com edited /draft (+124) "/* Open Source Examples */" (view diff)
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk are there any microformats properties that are Boolean values?
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KevinMarks So if we want to add drafts to micropub, silo.pub could map then through
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tantek aaronpk I believe we avoid those
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tantek I think out of habit
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aaronpk Yeah I couldn't recall any off hand
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tantek I learned to avoid them in the CSS world, as part of methodology of designing new properties in such a way to minimize adding new properties in the future
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aaronpk which means status=draft makes more sense than draft=true
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tantek there have been a few cases where people wanted a boolean, we picked non-boolean semantic names for the values, and then later, figured out that 3rd or 4th values made sense
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aaronpk status is really short for published-status
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tantek (had use-cases)
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tantek what if there's just no dt-published?
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tantek is this a good use-case for a dt-created?
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aaronpk That doesn't work with micropub since the absense of published means the server picks the published date
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tantek hence the "pub" in micropub ;)
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aaronpk Does Facebook have draft posts? I've manually done it on Facebook by creating a post visible only to me and then changing it to public when I want to publish it
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tantek I feel like auto-uploads to Flickr work that way too - app auto-uploads private as a "draft" hack, then you selectively set public
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aaronpk Oh yeah I do that with my eye fi card al the time
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aaronpk Which reminds me... That's going to go offline soon :-(
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tantek your SD is going SD?
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aaronpk I should work on my micropub eye-fi replacement again.
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Loqi definitely
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aaronpk It's been a year... I wonder if the tech has changed at all https://aaronparecki.com/2015/07/09/10/
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tantek.com edited /IRC (+5) "/* Under Consideration */ use indieweb-dev as place for meta until it seems it deserves its own channel (kind of feeling we might already be there)" (view diff)
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