#dev 2016-07-14

2016-07-14 UTC
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www.boffosocko.com edited /events/2016-07-27-homebrew-website-club (+19) "/* Los Angeles */ Chris Aldrich RSVP yes" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /events/2016-07-27-homebrew-website-club (+93) "/* Where */ expections for Los Angeles area" (view diff)
tantek, KevinMarks_, KevinMarks, gRegorLove, lukasros and cweiske joined the channel
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pfefferle are you there GWG?
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Loqi pfefferle: GWG left you a message on 7/11 at 6:47am: Not to be a pest, but any news on the PR?
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pfefferle good morning all
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Loqi rise and shine!
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pfefferle what about your german loqi?
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cweiske Loqi, verstehst du mich?
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Loqi is done
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cweiske warum bist du fertig Loqi ?
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Loqi grins profusely
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cweiske guten morgen Loqi
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Loqi yo
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cweiske are you playing with pokemons, Loqi ?
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Loqi yo
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cweiske yo Loqi
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pfefferle !tell GWG I also had problems with my crons... WordPress created a bunch of tasks and the process din't clean them correctly, so I used https://wordpress.org/plugins/advanced-cron-manager/ to clean up the schedule and now it works like a charm...
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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miklb aaronpk were you aware webmention.io was down?
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j4y_funabashi hey, anyone using flat-file storage - do you store extra hidden meta data with your files?
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j4y_funabashi I am storing my posts as html and I want to store my recieved mentions in the same way
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cweiske I have raw HTML files that get built into the final HTML files (adding navigation and framing)
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cweiske when I'll implement webmention display, I'll render the web mention files into the final HTML
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j4y_funabashi but mentions have extra metadata (source + target) that is not present in the post so I am wondering if I can store these variables in the html but dont know the best way to do that
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cweiske <meta name="webmention-source" content="..."/>
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cweiske same for target
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cweiske or, even better: <link rel="webmention-source" href="..."/>
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j4y_funabashi cweiske: yeah a rel link is a good idea, I want it to be parsed by mf2
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j4y_funabashi so when I accept and validate the mention I can inject a couple of rel links before saving the html
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cweiske yep
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j4y_funabashi are you planning to do something similar?
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cweiske stapibas, my webmention receiver, stores received mentions in mysql
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cweiske I've not decided yet if I'll dump them to the disk or not
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cweiske displaying mentions is not my top priority
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j4y_funabashi yeah fair enough - what are you working on at the moment?
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cweiske I finished my own search engine, search.cweiske.de and am now thinking about how to integrate my website screenshot service http://phancap.cweiske.de/phancap.phar/ as tool to archive linked pages
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cweiske either I integrate it directly into stapibas (which handles sending out linkbacks to linked pages, so the code is already there), or I'll make a standalone tool that subscribes to my hub for updates, and acts based on its notifications
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cweiske and then I need a way to make the archived pages usable/discoverable
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cweiske a lot to think about
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petermolnar j4y_funabashi I'm on-the-fly exporting wordpress to a plain-text-ish format, including comments
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petermolnar plain-text-ish as in as readable as possible, but the content is markdown
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petermolnar I've tried to migrate to grav and before this format I tried to export to a grav friendly YAML + MD file
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petermolnar but it didn't work out: grav lacks some features, especially in media management, which I'd need, like an imagemagick based engine
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petermolnar so in the plain text file, I store meta as real text data
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petermolnar eg.: https://petermolnar.net/monkeys-of-nothingness-2/ becomes http://pastebin.com/BFaAFQwd
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j4y_funabashi petermolnar: that looks nice and neat, any reason you dont store as html + mf2?
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petermolnar simple: hard to read
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petermolnar this is a copy that on it's own can be parsed, read, and, in rare cases, printed
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j4y_funabashi cweiske: yeah archives are tricky
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cweiske petermolnar, do you have image galleries? how do you express them in markdown?
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petermolnar also, links become footnotes which is not shown in the example
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petermolnar I don't do image galleries any more, but I do have multiple images in blog posts; they are simle ![]() markdown images
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j4y_funabashi yeah I go back and forth on this one
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j4y_funabashi you could argue that html has all those properties, parse/read/print
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cweiske when I look at my blog posts, this could work, too - except for on-the-top-right floating images like in http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/noxon-gateway.htm
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j4y_funabashi I used to store everything as json but switched to html after reading http://notenoughneon.com/2016/5/29/purl-a-portable-content-store
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cweiske that's basically what I use now
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petermolnar cweiske ![](){} -> the {} is supported by makrdown extra specs and can contain .class or #id for css properties
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petermolnar see https://michelf.ca/projects/php-markdown/extra/#spe-attr
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cweiske after reading this I know why I prefer rST over markdown
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petermolnar the reason why I decided to use plain text is because reading http://textfiles.com/magazines/LOD/ is still the same, but reading my own HTMLs from 16 years before is messy
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petermolnar cweiske I was considering rST, to be honest, I still am
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petermolnar althoug setext would probably be the best for long term :D
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cweiske too few structural features
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cweiske s/too few/not enough/
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Loqi cweiske meant to say: not enough structural features
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petermolnar I know, that's why it's immortal
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cweiske and that's why I cannot use it
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cweiske I require tables or definition lists
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petermolnar this is an interesting summary by the way: https://gist.github.com/dupuy/1855764
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petermolnar and there is also this: http://commonmark.org/
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petermolnar what is CommonMark?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "CommonMark" yet. Would you like to create it?
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petermolnar CommonMark is "A strongly defined, highly compatible specification of Markdown", in other words an attempt to make a common specification out of the countless Markdown versions out in the wild. See http://commonmark.org/
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loqi.me created /CommonMark (+252) "prompted by petermolnar and dfn added by petermolnar" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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petermolnar and there is always the option to export ot TeX ;)
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cweiske commonmark sounds like a good example for https://xkcd.com/927/
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petermolnar it does
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petermolnar but I do appreciate it
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tommorris.org edited /site-deaths (+210) "/* Upcoming */ adding State" (view diff)
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voxpelli for Micropub I save my posts with the e-* as markdown and the rets of the properties as YAML front-matter, so filed based storage, but not pure HTML
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voxpelli j4y_funabashi: cweiske: I wouldn't use <link rel="webmention-source" href="..."/> – if you're using a non-standard rel or mf2-property, then mark it up as such. See eg. http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-2-faq#how_do_you_use_experimental_microformats_and_property_names
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cweiske https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648
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voxpelli also don't see the need for a webmention-source – a h-entry or u-comment (u-comment's can't be standalone so h-entry is probably better) of the comment would contain that information already
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voxpelli cweiske: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648#section-3 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6648#section-4
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voxpelli cweiske: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988
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voxpelli creating new relation names or mf2 properties would according to how I perceive rfc6648 be considered fairly reckless without having gone done the research one could be assumed for a normally standardized property
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j4y_funabashi voxpelli: you are right, the source would be the entry's url property (if the author includes that)
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voxpelli j4y_funabashi: well, if the author doesn't include it, then you likely will, no? the h-entry you save will be your interpretation of the sent mention rather than the actual raw mention mf2, no?
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j4y_funabashi well, at the moment I am storing the source's html on the filesystem, then the mf2 json in my db cache
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j4y_funabashi and I want to be able to recreate the cache from the html
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voxpelli as long as you know the source URL you can always refetch the html
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j4y_funabashi so I am thinking the best way is to inject some metadata (the source and target) into the html before I save it
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voxpelli I'm saving the raw output of my mf2 parser alongside my interpretation of that data and the source URL and such in the database
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j4y_funabashi yeah I am trying to avoid extra http calls
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j4y_funabashi so if I have to recreate my dbcache I dont have to rely on the source of the mention still being around
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voxpelli I find YAML front-matter to be a pretty neat way of storing additional metadata in a file
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voxpelli keeps a clean separation between the html of the source post and your added metadata as well
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j4y_funabashi true
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cweiske then you need Yet Another Parser
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j4y_funabashi although I think it would be nice to get all the info I need from the mf2 parser
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voxpelli j4y_funabashi: what language are you using?
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j4y_funabashi php
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voxpelli a quick Google reveals quite a few fornt matter parsers for PHP, see eg: https://github.com/mnapoli/FrontYAML
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cweiske but you still need Yet Another Parser
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voxpelli cweiske: and what's the problem in that?
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j4y_funabashi as notenoughneon says in her post, it would be nice to parse your own posts the same way you parse any other url
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voxpelli some languages like Python even have YAML parsers built in as far as I know
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cweiske more code -> more problems
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voxpelli cweiske: premature optimization is the root of all evil...
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cweiske Lets Use 10 Different Formats Now. We Can Reduce That Later.
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j4y_funabashi voxpelli: thanks for the microformats link, will have a read through
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j4y_funabashi are custom rel values a microformats thing?
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voxpelli j4y_funabashi: if you would like to follow cweiske's advise and at all costs avoid extra dependencies in your code, then you can always do JSON Front Matter instead of YAML: https://gist.github.com/voxpelli/a4fbc66e9bc6dbfec8fa9b7654fdee59 Less common, harder to read, but less code
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voxpelli j4y_funabashi: I think http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-registry is the registry for rels, athough then there also are https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5988
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voxpelli j4y_funabashi: custom rels according to at least rfc5988 should be defined as URL:s – such as rel="http://voxpelli.com/rel/my-personal-rel"
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j4y_funabashi for me it isnt really about avoiding dependencies I would just rather not write/read another file if I dont have to
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voxpelli j4y_funabashi: it wouldn't be another file, it would be another part of the same file
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voxpelli see https://gist.github.com/voxpelli/a4fbc66e9bc6dbfec8fa9b7654fdee59#file-data-html
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cweiske .. still another parser
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j4y_funabashi ah ok, I see what you mean
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voxpelli cweiske: JSON is part of most languages core libraries and as such won't change, and won't be removed
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cweiske I consider extracting some JSON from some HTML comment as parsing
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voxpelli Yes, you have said that you don't like adding code or parsers, we get it
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voxpelli So it's better for j4y_funabashi to mix his own data with the data downloaded from another site?
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voxpelli I think it would be a good idea to separate the metadata, which was the original question how to add, from the data downloaded from another site and a common technique for that is front matter
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j4y_funabashi at first I thought I could put the source+target in the filename
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j4y_funabashi but I prefer the idea of having those variables inside the file
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voxpelli using a standard serializer, be it JSON, YAML or HTML would probably be easiest/safest
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voxpelli partly because the data that you are going to save comes from a client, and you should never trust the client, but expect them to do the craziest things
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j4y_funabashi yeah I dont ever display the mention html, I render the mf2 version
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j4y_funabashi I think I am going to go with injecting 2 rel links to the head of the document for now
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j4y_funabashi and prefix them so they dont interfere with anything else
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j4y_funabashi aruna-webmention-source + aruna-webmention-target
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voxpelli j4y_funabashi: if it's rels then the more common way is to go with a url then
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voxpelli rel="http://j4y-something.com/webmention/source"
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voxpelli j4y_funabashi: any thoughts on how you will handle it if those are already tehre?
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voxpelli you probably need to ensure that none of your metadata tags has been added by the source page (or else you are trusting the client ;) )
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j4y_funabashi heh good point
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j4y_funabashi this is what I am after -> http://pin13.net/mf2/?id=20160714114234273
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j4y_funabashi but yeah I can remove any rels with those values before injecting my own
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j4y_funabashi to avoid that kind of attack
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GWG Morning
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Loqi GWG: pfefferle left you a message 5 hours, 18 minutes ago: I also had problems with my crons... WordPress created a bunch of tasks and the process din't clean them correctly, so I used https://wordpress.org/plugins/advanced-cron-manager/ to clean up the schedule and now it works like a charm...
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GWG Will have to try that
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GWG pfefferle, thanks for merging that quick change. I am going to experiment with logging.
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pfefferle GWG good morning
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GWG pfefferle, any thoughts on logging webmentions to post meta?
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miklb !tell aaronpk were you aware that webmention.io was down with a 502
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek j4y_funabashi: for another flat file storage example, I've documented some of Falcon's storage approach here: https://indieweb.org/Falcon#Storage_format
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aaronpk Crap. Wil fix soon
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Loqi aaronpk: miklb left you a message 12 minutes ago: were you aware that webmention.io was down with a 502
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tantek petermolnar: would be interested in your opinion (in terms of markdown replacements) with http://tantek.com/w/Markdown
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petermolnar I'll check it
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cweiske we should document 502 errors as criticism to nginx
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Loqi it is probable
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sknebel wrong answer, Loqi
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Loqi :)
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tantek what is a 502?
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Loqi 502 is an HTTP/1.1 Status Code returned from a webserver to signify that the Proxy Gateway for the requested URI was not found https://indieweb.org/502
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tantek what is a Proxy Gateway?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Proxy Gateway" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk it's not nginx's fault
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aaronpk i never have this problem with PHP
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aaronpk PHP behind nginx
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aaronpk sometimes when I reload the nginx config, passenger forgets about the ruby app
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petermolnar I did have it with nginx + php when the php-fpm service went down
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petermolnar but I don't see why this is criticism for nginx
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petermolnar it's a totally valid error
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aaronpk what caused the php-fpm service to go down? I've never had that happen yet
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petermolnar aaronpk self-compiled php7-fpm :)
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petermolnar I hit some random errors with it
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petermolnar but to be honest, it's extremely rare
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cweiske petermolnar, if php's fatal memory error is valid critic to wordpress, then 502 is valid critic for nginx - see https://indieweb.org/WordPress#Fatal_Error_memory_exhausted
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petermolnar that's not a valid critic either
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cweiske tantek thinks it is - http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/php-memory-exhausted.htm#p6
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aaronpk IIRC that got moved to the PHP page
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cweiske no
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cweiske it's still on wordpress
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cweiske with tantek noting that wordpress should catch it
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petermolnar and how exactly an oom killer-type error could be caught from within a script?
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petermolnar it's not a php exception, it's an instant die
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cweiske I didn't get an answer to this
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miklb iirc I got those php-fpm errors when updating Debian and a cache directory getting lost and not being writable
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cweiske https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2016-07-05#t1467743807242000
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cweiske tantek and frankly if WP *can't* be fixed, then that's a criticism too - that this is a non-fixable problem with WP
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cweiske https://chat.indieweb.org/2016-07-05/1467752035111000
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sknebel (aaronpk: doesn't Loqi quote chat-archive links anymore?)
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Loqi yo
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aaronpk oh! huh
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aaronpk ah I didn't enable it for this channel
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begriffs.com edited /silo-quits (+392) "/* Silo quitters 2016 */" (view diff)
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petermolnar !tell tantek re: http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/59905776/Markdown - most of the ideas are valid; I like the multi-line image w/ optional url and alt-ext and the bold vs italics, but I would miss the reference-style url options, which I do use now
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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petermolnar !tell tantek maybe forking/extending https://github.com/erusev/parsedown-extra would be a good idea to support this type of subset
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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petermolnar !tell tantek this is also a good read on a similar topic: https://gist.github.com/dupuy/1855764
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks Cwieske can you not put the source in as a base url ? That should fix relative url parsing too.
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KevinMarks The reason I like commonmark is that is based on research. Also http://johnmacfarlane.net/babelmark2/ is very good
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gregorlove.com edited /CommonMark (+28) "link dfn, see also" (view diff)
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www.orbific.com edited /2016/Brighton (+51) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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GWG Howdy
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voxpelli Hi
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GWG Hello, voxpelli. I am working on the issue you brought to my attention
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voxpelli Nice :)
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GWG pfefferle accepted a PR to move an existing hook that only triggered on send success to trigger on all sends
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GWG So I can write a logging function to trigger off of it, either built-in or separate
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@voxpelli Celebrating the successful large update of https://webmention.herokuapp.com/ yesterday by releasing a couple of new accounts for people to sign up on (twitter.com/_/status/753670585067114497)
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GWG For now, I may just borrow petermolnar's
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miklb voxpelli I meant to tell you I switched back to wm.io so I could use the updated plugin for Jekyll and have cached copies of webmentions. Some day may look at adapting the plugin to use yours though.
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miklb I do need to look into why I have the duplicate mentions
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voxpelli miklb: I think an issue I filed in Bridgy was solved – could have affected Webmention.io as well
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GWG dedupe function needed?
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voxpelli GWG: yeah, proper u-url based dedupe function would have prevented the issue Bridgy had from carrying through all the way
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voxpelli miklb: if you want to build a plugin some day then you can look at what Stuart built on top of my endpoint: http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/
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Loqi Enabling Webmentions
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voxpelli miklb: one could imagine a bridge to Micropub as well so that comments were imported using Micropub
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miklb ooh. That would be neat
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voxpelli as my endpoint has a realtime API one could even make it so that those Micropub requests happens in realtime :)
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voxpelli I'm not going to focus on that though as for Jekyll the small delay in building will cause problems when doing Salmentions
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miklb first on my todo list is a redesign/re-structure now that I have micropub
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voxpelli but one could build it as a standalone service :)
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voxpelli has even considered getting Pubsubhubbub going so that he has a more standard realtime API
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miklb needs to do some debugging for the bookmark type. When syndicating with bridgy, it only seemed to use the title and not content for the tweet
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loqi.me created /content-addressable_storage (+82) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /your_interest (+19) "prompted by KevinMarks and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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thraxil.org edited /2016/Brighton (+20) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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thraxil.org created /User:Thraxil.org (+17) "Created page with "is Anders Pearson"" (view diff)
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thraxil.org edited /User:Thraxil.org (+61) (view diff)
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thraxil.org edited /2016/Brighton (-6) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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thraxil.org edited /2016/Brighton (+38) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
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rossadavis.com created /Template:ross (+147) "Created page with "<span class="h-card" style="white-space:nowrap">{{sparkline|https://rossadavis.com/images/BigBio2.png}} [[User:rossadavis.com|Ross A Davis]]</span>"" (view diff)
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rossadavis.com edited /Template:ross (+0) (view diff)
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rossadavis.com edited /events/2016-07-27-homebrew-website-club (+14) "/* San Francisco */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /why (+179) "/* Site loss */ Google removes artist’s blog and a decade of his work along with it (and their email too)" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /lulz (+69) "just setting up my statuses" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+7) "kickstarting Los Angeles" (view diff)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2016-07-14-fb-marked-safe-notification.png]]""
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tantek.com edited /marked_safe (+123) "/* Facebook */ screenshot of notification marked safe" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /marked_safe (+11) "/* Facebook */ date" (view diff)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2016-07-14-fb-safety-check.png]]""
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tantek.com edited /Special:Log/upload () "uploaded a new version of "[[File:2016-07-14-fb-safety-check.png]]"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /safety_check (+86) "add screenshot date first" (view diff)
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tantek apparently FB also prompts people who have their current city set
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Loqi tantek: petermolnar left you a message 6 hours, 41 minutes ago: re: http://tantek.pbworks.com/w/page/59905776/Markdown - most of the ideas are valid; I like the multi-line image w/ optional url and alt-ext and the bold vs italics, but I would miss the reference-style url options, which I do use now
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Loqi tantek: petermolnar left you a message 6 hours, 40 minutes ago: maybe forking/extending https://github.com/erusev/parsedown-extra would be a good idea to support this type of subset
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tantek.com edited /Special:Log/upload () "uploaded a new version of "[[File:2016-07-14-fb-safety-check.png]]"" (view diff)
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Loqi tantek: petermolnar left you a message 6 hours, 39 minutes ago: this is also a good read on a similar topic: https://gist.github.com/dupuy/1855764
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tantek and you can ask a friend if they are safe also https://indieweb.org/safety_check
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kevinmarks.com edited /content_addressing (+81) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2016-07-27-homebrew-website-club (+152) "/* RSVP */ link LA indie event and FB POSSE copy!" (view diff)