#dev 2016-10-05
2016-10-05 UTC
# 
@John316Network https://booklaunch.io/llwroberts/thedoor - The Door is free. #IARTG #John316author #indieauth http://twitter.com/LorilynRoberts/status/739783198624751616/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/783466963985051648)
bret, KevinMarks, KevinMarks_, gRegorLove, tantek, cweiske, ChrisAldrich, kylewm and AngeloGladding joined the channel
# 
vanderven.se martijn edited /Main_Page (+21) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ Nürnberg has HWC today." (view diff)
# 
julian.foad.me.uk edited /events/2016-10-05-homebrew-website-club (+60) "/* Birmingham */" (view diff)
tantek joined the channel
singpolyma joined the channel
# 
singpolyma foo[]=bar&foo[]=baz is more universally supported IME. YMMZ
# singpolyma ... V
# singpolyma it's not a per-language difference, but per-framework. like even sinatra and rails (both ruby) support slightly different transformations
# 
aaronpk heh even the HTML JSON form note uses [] for array notation https://www.w3.org/TR/html-json-forms/
# singpolyma I mean, basic form-encoded will still support the a[] and a[b] key names, it's just your application may choose to represent the data structures differently. but the basic key => value mapping is always true
# singpolyma bear: yeah, that looks like what I would expect from a base-level parser
KevinMarks and AngeloGladding joined the channel
cweiske joined the channel
# 
KevinMarks The [] thing was a workaround for php (and Ruby maybe) not handling duplicate values right. Url?foo=1&foo=2 means foo=["1", "2"] but php makes it foo="2"
# KevinMarks So the [] thing was made up, and now we're ratifying it
# KevinMarks I did not mean to imply we made it up, but I'm not sure if it is in a w3c spec anywhere
# KevinMarks It's natural in python to handle urls like http://www.headsuptutoring.com/tiles?extras=d&extras=o&extras=g
pfefferle joined the channel
# KevinMarks Partly Stockholm syndrome, partly the fundamental attribution error, partly the Baader Meinhoff problem
# KevinMarks What the other one where you buy a poodle and suddenly see all the poodles everywhere?
# KevinMarks With examples of the [] syntaxes in more detail?
# KevinMarks Oh. So no events with hCard locations?
# KevinMarks Hm. Having a way to make more composite posts seems like a good thing.
# KevinMarks If the quill editor had ways of making other things inline than media for example
# KevinMarks As opposed to something like the moments editor where the pieces need to exist already
tantek, KevinMarks and gRegorLove joined the channel
# 
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: on micropub, I didn't see anything in the spec about content[html] when posting
# aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: https://micropub.net/draft/#new-article-with-html
# ben_thatmustbeme oh?
# ben_thatmustbeme in this room, i'm guessing
# ben_thatmustbeme i'll read that back
# ben_thatmustbeme had a minor editorial fix https://micropub.net/draft/#reserved-properties
# ben_thatmustbeme action - indicates whether this is a delete, or undelete
# ben_thatmustbeme it also indicates update
# ben_thatmustbeme or create (when missing)
tantek joined the channel
# aaronpk new section explicitly describing the use of form-encoding https://micropub.net/draft/#form-encoded-and-multipart-requests
barryf joined the channel
# julian.foad.me.uk edited /events/2016-10-05-homebrew-website-club (+87) "/* Birmingham */ Add attendees present." (view diff)
# KevinMarks Not allowed is a bit strong.
# KevinMarks It's "really should not" in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6919
# KevinMarks Yes, it's OK to say not supported, but it's not a bug if a python implementation supports it by default
# julian.foad.me.uk edited /events/2016-10-05-homebrew-website-club (+104) "/* Notes */" (view diff)
# 
gRegorLove Interesting. Haven't seen people use etherpad for HWC before
tantek joined the channel
# 
tantek.com edited /read (+1017) "/* Tantek */ re-organize example for type, and flow (starting, finishing a chapter, finishing a book, series)" (view diff)
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
# 
@ChrisAldrich @RikMende Hope it helps. Did webmentions on your site break? I'm surprised my reply didn't show up as a comment… http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/rikmende-hope-it-helps-did-webmentions-on-your-site-break (twitter.com/_/status/783748912167260160)
# vanderven.se martijn edited /IndieWebCamps (+1562) "/* Tips */ brain dump on teaching and breaking the ice for questions" (view diff)
# ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: confused why you said the 'action' thing is correct
# ben_thatmustbeme ahh, i see
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme and i read back that confusing discussion this morning.... sooo still confused on content[html] when creating, you said you are taking that out from posting anyway (in which case ignore test 103?)
# ben_thatmustbeme makes even less sense with the updates having an array for content in the JSON format since the only time you would have multiple values would be if it has some sort of label to them "content":
{"html": ... , "text": ... }# ben_thatmustbeme okay, i see in the update, so posting with content[html] is just not allowed at all now, and so only unlabeled content format is supported
# ben_thatmustbeme and assumed plaintext
# ben_thatmustbeme and everything is an array in the json syntax, even if its an object, because apparently we want to go back to mf2's json format
# ben_thatmustbeme i'm starting to get annoyed that the spec seems to assume storage as mf2
# 
KartikPrabhu "The Micropub vocabulary is derived directly from the Microformats vocabulary. Micropub is meant to be a serialization of Microformats that can be submitted as an HTTP POST. The method for developing new Micropub vocabularies is to look at the Microformats representation and work backwards. " from https://indieweb.org/micropub#Background
# ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i know, its not just there though
# ben_thatmustbeme now we are taking functionality away from form encoding, and that means we push more towards JSON. as far as I know no one has really implemented it yet
# ben_thatmustbeme also the SHOULD store unrecognized values rather than what most others specs do of MUST ignore
# ben_thatmustbeme which is not something i would recommend
# KartikPrabhu SHOULD store is good since the original intent can be preserved if someone decides to upgrade to supporting un recognised values in the future
# KartikPrabhu yeah it is not "MUST store" for that reason I suppose
# ben_thatmustbeme the idea of most specs saying MUST ignore is so that you don't have conflicts with extensions you don't know about. if you always store then extension conflicts become an actual issue, whereas we get around that by just saying, well if its not specified it doesn't matter
tantek joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme i'm talking extensions to mf2
# ben_thatmustbeme "This allows clients to post rich types of content to servers that recognize it, while also posting fallback content to servers that don't." this isn't true, because ignoring those values has the exact same effect
# ben_thatmustbeme SHOULD store is nice in the ideal sense, but only ever works for specific storage types and is a burden on those that don't use them
# ben_thatmustbeme as an implementor using mysql that feels like a big middle finger to everything i have done thus far
# KartikPrabhu how is this a problem about storage types?
# KartikPrabhu you can always store text
# KartikPrabhu in mysql
# ben_thatmustbeme text of what?
# ben_thatmustbeme the entire post in mf2
# KartikPrabhu unknown-property = whatever
# KartikPrabhu as a string
# KartikPrabhu again as aaronpk said you don't have to
# KartikPrabhu you can ignore the SHOULD if you like
# ben_thatmustbeme also the argument for it being a SHOULD is what exactly?
# KartikPrabhu here is an example. Suppose i have a very basic site and I haven't figured out "Tags" yet
# ben_thatmustbeme the only case is "you haven't finished it yet"
# KartikPrabhu I can still post tags using micropub clients but my site does not recognise them, and I store them anyway
KevinMarks joined the channel
# ben_thatmustbeme SHOULDs are usually for "its best for interop that you do this"
# KartikPrabhu then in the future when I implement tags I can go back and tag everything because I stored them
# KartikPrabhu yes, I just gave you an example of "interop"
# KartikPrabhu my site upgrade interops nicely with older posts posted through micropub
# ben_thatmustbeme no, once its internal, thats not interop at all
# KartikPrabhu ok fine maybe I don't know the dev-speak for interop
# KartikPrabhu but my example is still valid as to why storing is a good idea
# KartikPrabhu if you don't want to store that is fine since it is a SHOULD not a MUST
# KartikPrabhu tantek: in usual language they are used interchangably, but any spec defines them so that should be fine
# KartikPrabhu i thought w3c/wharwg specs defined them but I might be wrong
# KartikPrabhu oh yeah " The key words MUST, MUST NOT, REQUIRED, SHALL, SHALL NOT, SHOULD, SHOULD NOT, RECOMMENDED, NOT RECOMMENDED, MAY, and OPTIONAL in this specification have the meaning defined in [RFC2119]."
# KartikPrabhu RFC2119 does have decent definitions though
# KartikPrabhu which seems consistent with how I was interpreting them in micropub context
# ben_thatmustbeme its really a question of SHOULD vs MAY
# ben_thatmustbeme in my opinion
# KartikPrabhu MAY is not defined anywhere is it?
# ben_thatmustbeme when there is only 1 reason to do it, future proofing for your own self, that to me, is MAY
# KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: see that rfc2119 link
# KartikPrabhu SHOULD: "[...]mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
# ben_thatmustbeme i can read
# KartikPrabhu MUST: "[...]mean that the definition is an absolute requirement of the specification."
# ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu: MAY is #5 in that list
# KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: oh opps, sorry
# KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: perhaps I am now agreeing with you that it should be "MAY store unrecognised values"
# KartikPrabhu hehe
# KartikPrabhu tantek: MAYbe you SHOULD propose better definitions
# ben_thatmustbeme lol
# KartikPrabhu ;)
# KartikPrabhu then you MUST write that up. which ones make sense and which should be dropped
# KartikPrabhu yeah that was my first thought too
# KartikPrabhu MAY is better than SHOULD
# KevinMarks Rfc 6919 defines MAY and a bunch of others, but it is a satire
# KevinMarks The plugin fires on every twitter, github, g+ profile page
# KartikPrabhu that's a lot
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
# KevinMarks_ 99 users
# KevinMarks_ I am probably a lot of the traffic myself
KevinMarks joined the channel
tantek joined the channel
# KevinMarks That's fair
# KevinMarks Or switch to Zegnat's idea of doing it locally
# 
tantek also probably worth noting on the indiewebify.me pages a /disclaimer noting if / how much time server logs are kept / rotated
# KevinMarks We didn't file issues yet, but we should.
KevinMarks joined the channel
# gRegorLove Haven't read logs yet, but did this get mentioned? http://www.reuters.com/article/us-yahoo-nsa-exclusive-idUSKCN1241YT
# gRegorLove "Mayer and Yahoo General Counsel Ron Bell did not involve the company's security team in the process, instead asking Yahoo's email engineers to write a program to siphon off messages containing the character string the spies sought and store them for remote retrieval, according to the sources."
# gRegorLove "The sources said the program was discovered by Yahoo's security team in May 2015, within weeks of its installation. The security team initially thought hackers had broken in."
# gRegorLove "When Stamos found out that Mayer had authorized the program, he resigned as chief information security officer and told his subordinates that he had been left out of a decision that hurt users' security, the sources said."
# www.svenknebel.de edited /CloudFlare (+252) "/* Possible issues and disadvantages */ blocks wanted "crawlers" as well" (view diff)
KevinMarks joined the channel
# 
gregorlove.com edited /Yahoo (+730) "/* Issues */ Privacy blockquote, link to Reuters" (view diff)
# tantek ok wow: "They were also upset that Mayer and Yahoo General Counsel Ron Bell did not involve the company's security team in the process, instead asking Yahoo's email engineers to write a program to siphon off messages containing the character string the spies sought and store them for remote retrieval"
# gRegorLove Argh. MediaWiki doesn't auto add line-breaks inside blockquote?
# gRegorLove Yeah! Insane.
# gregorlove.com edited /Yahoo (+359) "/* Privacy */ white-space: pre-wrap. expand quotation" (view diff)
KevinMarks joined the channel
# tantek.com edited /events/2016-10-05-homebrew-website-club (+43) "Brighton and Göteborg cancelled this week (apparently), though Birmingham posted notes!" (view diff)
KevinMarks and tantek joined the channel