#dev 2016-12-30

2016-12-30 UTC
KevinMarks, KevinMarks_, tantek, KartikPrabhu, chrisaldrich_, chrisaldrich1 and chrisaldrich joined the channel
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miklb.com created /WordCamp_Miami (+267) "prompted by tantek" (view diff)
KevinMarks_, KevinMarks__ and cweiske joined the channel
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martymcgui.re edited /YouTube (+427) "/* Copyright Claim */ short blurb about Content ID, links to EFF complaints" (view diff)
DanC joined the channel
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tantek welcome DanC!
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tantek I've learned and forgotten so many CLIs
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tantek used to be a whiz at VMS commands and TECO too
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DanC I'd like to see a <2minute video of your screen while you start a new post
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tantek having learned/forgotten so many, I've learned the meta-lesson that CLIs are poor for longterm usability / learnability, especially when frequency of use drops below some threshold. (compared to GUIs)
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DanC screencast. that's the word I couldn't remember.
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tantek DanC - I think I've shown you that in person no?
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DanC I have a vague memory of your doing so. In a restaurant.
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tantek likely hasn't changed much
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DanC HyperCard was part of the discussion, IIRC
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tantek though at least my Posting UI (as much as I have one), now shows a heads-up of what links will be webmentioned or pingbacked, when I click "Post"
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DanC I don't remember, so I'd still like a screencast. Not that you're obliged to provide one.
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tantek DanC, for better posting UIs, see /create
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tantek mine is hardly exemplary
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DanC yeah, well... I'm no less curious. :)
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DanC takes a look at https://indieweb.org/create ...
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DanC I'm losing at https://indieweb.org/p3k#Screenshots
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DanC wish for screenshot granted at https://indieweb.org/Taproot#Notes
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DanC screencast, rather
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DanC one thing I really like about modern chat stuff (my experience is with RocketChat, but I'm sure it's inspired by slack) is the ability to edit messages.
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aaronpk oops that fragment moved to https://indieweb.org/p3k-v1
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DanC I don't see the pop-up-pilcrow for grabbing a #Screenshots link
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tantek what is a pilcrow?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pilcrow" yet. Would you like to create it?
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www.madmode.com edited /create (+3) "update p3k screenshots link" (view diff)
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DanC pilcrow is a backwards p thingy... this seems to be a trac feature. visit https://informatics.gpcnetwork.org/trac/Project and hover on a heading
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /pilcrow (+176) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by DanC" (view diff)
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tantek heh, DanC have you been around since that Loqi feature?
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tantek or did you just do that by accident? :D
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www.madmode.com edited /pilcrow (+158) (view diff)
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DanC accident
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tantek would you consider that "smooth"? ;)
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DanC indeed!
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tantek what is a pilcrow?
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Loqi pilcrow is a backwards P "used as an indent for separate paragraphs or to designate a new paragraph in one long piece of copy" https://indieweb.org/pilcrow
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www.madmode.com edited /pilcrow (+44) "cite source" (view diff)
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DanC were you asking to prompt Loqi? A fontophile like yourself didn't really not know, right?
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tantek DanC, sorta, also assuming it wasn't common knowledge
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DanC well, that was a fun rabbit hole... like I really needed another one :)
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tantek just verified that "f username" and "follow username" do not work in the Twitter API any more (as methods of following) - they just get tweeted to the account
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DanC linkedin no longer supports geographical navigation. "I'm going to Austin. Who do I know there?"
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DanC I keep running into "you're clearly a wierdo, cuz only like 3 people use the feature you're interested in. The guy who wrote that code left years ago and when we upgraded our database, it broke and we're not fixing it" pages.
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tantek "upgraded our database" lol
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DanC most recently: just after I found a way to export my contacts including tags so that I could use the tagging feature, "Relationship Section of Profile - No Longer Available" https://www.linkedin.com/help/linkedin/answer/68887?lang=en
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tantek what is linkedin?
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Loqi LinkedIn is a special-purpose silo for hosting your professional resume, history, and contacts https://indieweb.org/LinkedIn
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tantek ^^^ that was a prompt to get Loqi to give a clickable URL
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DanC another way to decode that "no longer available" page is: "we realized the few people who use that feature are probably willing to pay for it". Fair enough.
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tantek forks a tab to see if Bridgy Publish supports POSSEing "follow" posts to Twitter (talk about rare feature that maybe no one else has asked for yet)
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tantek smiles at Bridgy currently having "(!) Issues 99"
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DanC ponders his angst around not having hCard versions of the info in his box of physical business cards
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DanC annual file purge
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tantek DanC, you may be interested in
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tantek what is 100daysofindieweb?
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Loqi 100DaysOfIndieWeb is a challenge to ship something IndieWeb-related for 100 days https://indieweb.org/100DaysOfIndieWeb
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tantek in particular: https://indieweb.org/100DaysOfIndieWeb#More_100_days_projects
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DanC "100 days of open source" is the most manageable one I see. I'm probably closed to that already.
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tantek right! good to pick one you're close to to start with
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tantek finds rhiaro's previously filed issue on the subject! yay!
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Loqi :D
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DanC services RL interrupt
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+619) "/* POSSE to Twitter */ separate grouping for Backfeed from Twitter, add POSSE Follows to Twitter since bumping into it" (view diff)
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tantek seeing if I can fit into a tweet the fix for that Twitter API error
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tantek a retweetable tweet at that
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tantek done: https://twitter.com/t/status/814905333193838592
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Loqi [@t] Twitter API {"errors":[{"message":"Sorry, that page does not exist","code":34}]} Fix [/1]/statuses/… → /1.1/statuses/… (ttk.me t4m51)
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tantek hoping that helps the next person that searches for that error message / JSON
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tantek the brevity plus use in the page title should help it beat the other web search results
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bear curious to see tantek rant a bit about CLIs and then to see how much wiki editing is done via Loqi and not the GUI
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bear to me CLIs have the exact same UX problems as GUIs -- they both require really good design to be able to be used by new and vetern users
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tantek bear, simple English is not usually considered a "CLI" ;)
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tantek bear - haven't found an unforgettable CLI
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tantek and have kinda givenup on that after what, 30+ years
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tantek just realized I should have searched Twitter itself for fixes to that API error
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bear i'm not fully disagreeing with you, just finding it funny that so many people (and apologies if I over extended my analogy to you) who don't like CLIs are rushing to chat bots
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tantek like I said, simple english != CLI
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tantek they're pretty disjoint sets
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bear but it is
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bear what you view as simple english is the CLI designer picking a distinct set of action and subject words to trigger events
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tantek I think the very framing there is what is the difference
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bear all of loqi's behaviour is from trial and error to find the right mix of declaritive speech
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tantek CLIs are *designed* and *picked*
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tantek whereas simple english like with Loqi are *adapted* to *existing* speech
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tantek very different methodology
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bear badly designed is my point
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tantek "designed" at all is my point
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bear i'll have to regroup and find another way to express my point (i'm also battling a bad week so am not fully "online")
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bear but i'm curious because I come from the world where the CLI was the *only* interface and i've been trying to keep it relevant in this world of pictures and colour that, to be honest, confounds me daily
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loqi.me created /twtmore (+296) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /twtmore (+37) "expand see also with their twitter account" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /tm.to (+20) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek bear, to be fair, there's a lot of bad "pictures and colour" noise
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bear nods
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tantek I too came from that world, and likely still has *some* muscle memory (e.g. Apple ][ commands)
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bear part of me wants to respond with: wait until the GUI is as old as the CLI ... but I think that is now
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bear hence the pendulum swinging back to web chat interfaces
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tantek bear, I'd agree except the convergence and refinement of PARC WIMP based UIs appear to be lasting (again, 30+ years)
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tantek (at least on desktop, mobile is another beast)
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tantek (swipe in what direction does what again? press and hold does what again?)
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bear yep, would count PARC interfaces as great examples of how to do it right
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tantek this is an amazing site-death page http://tm.to/index.html
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tantek looks so ominous
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tantek also the doublethink of an *egg* that implies *life* to come, as a way of communicating a site *death*
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tantek amazing
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aaronpk petermolnar: i just got a webmention from an old article of yours!
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bear yea, that index image just fills me with dread
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tantek.com edited /twtmore (+1000) "add goodbye note with ominous image" (view diff)
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KevinMarks__ What are purple numbers?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "purple numbers" yet. Would you like to create it?
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cweiske DanC, http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/html-heading-links.htm
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Loqi [Christian Weiske] Usability: Clickable heading links
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cweiske http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/html-contentlinks.htm
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Loqi [Christian Weiske] Usability: Anchors everywhere
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tantek.com edited /twtmore (+226) "Example (how I found tm.to at all)" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /wl.gs (+374) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
KevinMarks joined the channel
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loqi.me created /shortlink (+222) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /shortlinks (-4) "singular" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /shortlink (+292) "criticism, worsens link fragility, see also" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /link_shortener (+314) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /wl.gs (+192) "* [[link shortener]]" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /twtmore (+21) "sa link shortener" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /LinkedIn (+161) "How to export your data stub" (view diff)
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tantek DanC: still around? could you braindump how what you were able to export / extract from LinkedIn here? https://indieweb.org/LinkedIn#How_to_export_your_data
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tantek.com edited /export (+322) "dfn, note "How to export your data" explicitly" (view diff)
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DanC tunes back in...
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www.madmode.com edited /LinkedIn (+1638) "/* How to export your data */" (view diff)
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DanC too much detail, maybe?
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DanC cool, cweiske
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tantek DanC++ brilliant. Thank you!
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Loqi danc has 1 karma
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DanC re CLI and GUI: the next frontier is voice. No visible shared state between you and the machine.
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bear danc++
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Loqi danc has 2 karma
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aaronpk it's been interesting using Alexa
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DanC well, voice + screen is fairly common now. But not with Alexa
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aaronpk it's actually like voice CLI
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aaronpk cause you have to get the phrasing just right to trigger the various commands
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aaronpk not like natural speech at all
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DanC yeah... my C.S. prof described CLI as "what sequence of characters will get the machine to do what I want?"
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tantek uh, y'all have seen the Alexa police news right?
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tantek what is Alexa?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Alexa" yet. Would you like to create it?
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DanC never mind Alexa police... how about Google location history as evidence?
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aaronpk who needs google location history when you can do it yourself! https://aaronparecki.com/transport
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DanC my July 9 tweet was "Everything I type is a matter of record. Knew that. But everywhere I take my phone? Still learning."
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sknebel that Alexa story had the water meters usage statistics as evidence as well
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tantek DanC - you can purge Google location history. You cannot however purge phone company cell tower tracking location history, which they provide an API of to gov agencies
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DanC I just did an annual Google takeout. Very pleasant experience.
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aaronpk had access to the AT&T location API for a while. the crazy part is it didn't even require any authentication, it was just open on their internal network.
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tantek yeah that one
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tantek :(
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bear aaronpk - even scarier was that it also didn't need auth for most of the POST/PUT items
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tantek what is AT&T?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "AT&T" yet. Would you like to create it?
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DanC re 100days... for me, I lean toward 100 days of ocap. https://github.com/dckc/awesome-ocap
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DanC I have a belated "ocap christmas list" blog item brewing.
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DanC aaronpk, do you have an extra 6 hrs/day somehow?
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aaronpk eh?
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DanC I'm looking at https://aaronparecki.com/tag/100daysofindieweb. each of those would take me ~6hrs
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aaronpk they're around 1-3hrs usually
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aaronpk including writing the blog post
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DanC reads the js on lambda bit with interest...
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tantek.com edited /repost (+103) "crosslink to reposts for that meaning" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /repost (+14) "move historical musing to a separate section below, not relevant to intro / top" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /reposts (+2) "subtle icon difference ;)" (view diff)
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DanC aaronpk, how do you host images such as https://aaronparecki.com/2016/12/28/3/image-1.png ?
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DanC I tend to move my blog text around using DVCS, and I'm reluctant to manage images that way
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2016-12-28-homebrew-website-club (+100) "/* Photos */ add sf" (view diff)
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DanC oh... tantek... that's one reason for DVCS over versions as done with something like mediawiki: it's decentralized. I can edit offline and on different machines
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tantek DanC, hey you'll no get argument from me of git as a backend instead of MySQL ;)
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aaronpk it's a file on disk next to the file that is the post data
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tantek fileondisk++
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Loqi fileondisk has 1 karma
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DanC and the disk is... in EC2 somewhere?
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aaronpk linode vps
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loqi.me created /static_file (+25) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /file_on_disk (+25) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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aaronpk it's served by a sneaky nginx rule so that it has that nice URL
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DanC that's another bit of friction for me: the budget I can justify for hobby service fees is ~$0
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aaronpk i have a paying client that pays the base amount per month for the server so i'm essentially paying $0 for it :)
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DanC fileondisk = Bake, Don't Fry http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000404
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DanC only took me a decade to catch on. http://www.madmode.com/2012/bake-fry-frozen-flask.html
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aaronpk my site is definitely a strange hybrid
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DanC (well, all almost all my w3.org stuff was baked)
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DanC hybrid... did you write that 3 tier article? that's an ideal I strive for...
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aaronpk hm no i don't think so
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aaronpk tho i could definitely write up all the reasoning behind the choices in this version of my website and i wouldn't even feel bad about most of them
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DanC right... another Aaron. https://www.aaron-gustafson.com/notebook/enabling-webmentions-in-jekyll/
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Loqi [Aaron Gustafson] Enabling Webmentions in Jekyll
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tantek aarons++
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Loqi aarons has 1 karma
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tantek we had another Aaron at HWC SF this week too - and he's apparently been going to the GoDaddy hosted HWC SFs as well
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Zegnat After multiple Bens, I now I have to keep track of multiple Aarons?
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Zegnat Who is Ben?
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Zegnat What is Ben?
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Loqi Ben is an over-used nym that causes much confusion https://indieweb.org/Ben
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DanC hmm... if I gave up my audible.com $15/month subscription, I could prolly get a linode vps. But then the burden of curating stuff to listen to on the commute would go back up.
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DanC I think I'll stick to sandstorm. I got in early, so my monthly fee is $6-$6=$0.
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DanC not much progress since August on moving to sandstorm: http://capsite.madmode.com/
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DanC This two channel set-up is stressing me out. it's been around since when? July. sigh. momentum.
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tantek heh: https://twitter.com/hmans/status/814948771226419200
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Loqi [@hmans] @jack Microformats and Webmention :p
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tantek Loqi?
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aaronpk hm interesting webmention "gotcha"... when I change the URL of a post, should I send webmentions from both URLs?
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tantek what does the existing protocol say?
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aaronpk or just the old URL, which would cause receivers to notice it changed?
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tantek I think the better solution is to only require the *old* URL
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aaronpk the spec doesn't say a lot about *when* to send them
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tantek sending from
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tantek uh, pretty sure webmention updates says to
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tantek when anything changes about your post
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aaronpk checks
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aaronpk https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/#sending-webmentions-for-updated-posts
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tantek including u-url property :P
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aaronpk just says "If the source URL was updated"
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tantek what does the webmention update test test then?
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tantek or rather, which of those? does it expect a webmention from the original URL or the new URL?
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aaronpk i think just that some property of the post was changed
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tantek sounds like a good new test :)
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aaronpk i don't think we had thought of the case of a post URL changing
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tantek what? we certainly have from having the slug change
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aaronpk we do? where?
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tantek what is a slug?
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Loqi A slug is a series of words in a permalink URL, usually at the end, that are from or representative of the name or text of a post, and thus part of an overall URL design https://indieweb.org/slug
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tantek what is URL design?
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Loqi URL design is the practice of deliberately designing URLs, in particular, permalinks, typically for a better UX for everyone who creates, reads, and shares content https://indieweb.org/URL_design
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tantek aaronpk, you around to host a HWC PDX 2017-01-11?
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aaronpk lol nope! i'm coming to SF that day
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tantek oh! I'll be in Seattle!
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aaronpk i will be at HWC SF tho!
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tantek edits /events
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tantek aaronpk how about the 25th?
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aaronpk yep!
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tantek.com edited /Events (+2074) "add January events, move December to recent, heading level tweaks" (view diff)
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Zegnat 2017-01-11 should be on in the Netherlands, location pending
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tantek Zegnat, add it! Someone needs to create https://indieweb.org/events/2017-01-11-homebrew-website-club
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tantek is done editing /events
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tantek I believe the newsletter depends on BOTH the listing in /events and the individual page existing
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tantek and aaronpk may need to re-generate it manuallly since it is after 14:00
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aaronpk i think it'll do it one more time just before 15:00
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Zegnat Afraid I am heading for bed. Not feeling well :(
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aaronpk yep last one is at 22:50 UTC (15 minutes)
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tantek aaronpk, want to start the article https://indieweb.org/events/2017-01-25-homebrew-website-club since you know there'll be a HWC PDX then?
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aaronpk do i just copy from the most recent one?
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aaronpk oh my gosh this makes me want to automate this so bad
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tantek aaronpk, welcome to my and Gregorlove's world
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tantek we've been manually doing this for *years* now
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronparecki.com created /events/2017-01-25-homebrew-website-club (+7610) "i think i got that right" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, well, see what the newsletter says ;)
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martymcgui.re edited /events/2017-01-25-homebrew-website-club (-45) "/* Where */ add Baltimore HWC location, times" (view diff)
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tantek martymcguire[m]: how about 2017-01-11 HWC in Baltimore?
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martymcguire[m] tantek: i'm going to be out of town 2017-01-11 and i think my co-organizer has another event that night. :[
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tantek ok
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tantek perhaps include an entry for Baltimore that says something like "Skipping this week. Join us 2017-01-25 (linked)"
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martymcguire[m] ah, good idea.
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martymcguire[m] haha, still no https://indieweb.org/events/2017-01-11-homebrew-website-club page
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Loqi hehe
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tantek KevinMarks: ^^^ ?
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tantek need one in the next few minutes for HWC SF on that day
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martymcgui.re edited /events/2017-01-25-homebrew-website-club (-37) "/* RSVP */ add Baltimore RSVP info" (view diff)
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sebsel gash, I tweeted too much in 2010.
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tantek I feel that way about 2008
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sebsel but I'm getting there for my 2017 commitment! :)
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tantek nice
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KevinMarks I have been out to lunch with family. Making event pages on a phone isn't really doable
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KevinMarks A loqi way of automating events would be great, aaronpk
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KevinMarks Also, if a webmention from an indie event made the right location subheading
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aaronpk whoa
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aaronpk that's a good idea
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aaronpk turn the wiki events into more of an aggregation of all the indie events with the details?
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KevinMarks That's what we're doing manually. Not sure if bridgy can bring the fb ones in too.
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KevinMarks At the moment we manually edit in the location and links to RSVP
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aaronpk i guess i always thought of it the other way around. the wiki being the canonical event and then adding the indie events as copies you can RSVP to
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KevinMarks And there's this weird 3 way edit to get them all aligned and linking to each other
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sebsel I have all my tweets on my blog :D
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sebsel My server just can't index them all within the 30 seconds window, so only 2012+ is in the feed.
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sebsel But I have them all!
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aaronpk woohoo congrats!
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sebsel Thanks!
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KevinMarks Nice work, sebsel
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sebsel I have only ±23:15 hours in my timezone left till new year... Too bad I said 'automated' in my commitment. But I can make that work with Brid.gy publish I guess.
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sebsel But I already syndicate/POSSE manual since I made the commitment, to both Twitter and Instagram
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sebsel Oh well
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sebsel Good night/day everyone for now!
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Loqi laila tov!
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seblog.nl edited /2017-01-01-commitments (+28) "Did it :)" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, it's definitely a challenge
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tantek the events setup we have / need