#dev 2017-04-10

2017-04-10 UTC
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aaronpk
past vs present yeah
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Loqi
aaronpk: [eddie] left you a message 2 minutes ago: what's the difference between an itinerary on your site versus a p3k-trip? Is it past versus present? Mode of transport? Something else?
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aaronpk
itinerary is the intent to do something, and the trip contains the real data after it happened, usually including the actual GPS data
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aaronpk
itinerary has properties such as individual legs of the trip with flight number, etc.
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Events (+481) "/* Tickets and Registration */"
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[eddie]
Ahh gotcha ?
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aaronpk
i keep wondering if i should merge them somehow, but it hasn't really been a problem yet
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aaronpk
like i could totally see updating the itinerary to add my GPS track after it's completed
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aaronparecki.com
edited /planet (+158) "/* How */ Atom"
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loqi.me
edited /planet (+31) "[kevinmarks] added "http://www.planetplanet.org/" to "See Also""
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Upcoming.org (-49) "/* Brainstorming */ upcoming has "follow""
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Upcoming.org (+4) "specify .org because upcoming is also open source software and may be running elsewhere"
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aaronparecki.com
created /Microsub (+13900) "first draft of Microsub"
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martymcguire[m]
oh shiiiiiiii- microsub!
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[eddie]
Sweet!! Pretty excited about Microsub... gonna be reading through that tonight
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[eddie]
aaronpk: if you merged the two, do you think you would call it an itinerary or trip?
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aaronpk
I'm not sure!
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ben_thatmustbeme
Aaronpk why are you writing it up like a technical spec first. Send to be the opposite of what we usually do
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martymcgui.re
edited /User:Martymcgui.re (-84) "/* Itches */ update info on mf2 gem"
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martymcgui.re
edited /User:Martymcgui.re (-120) "/* Working on */"
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[eddie]
Aaronpk: cool, I think I'm gonna experiment with using a trip baseline. Because as I've been thinking about it, a "past itinerary" doesn't make sense but a "future trip" does. It's kind of like my media checking workflow: interested, in progress, finished. Trips might have a "planned, in progress, finished" status as well. ? ? ?
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[eddie]
I'll play around with that idea, sneak peeks at your mf2, and experiment.
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: what do you mean?
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aaronpk
I started Micropub pretty much that way too
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gRegorLove
Interesting. sandeep.io was down for a while but now it's redirecting to his blogger.
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martymcgui.re
edited /User:Martymcgui.re (+212) "RSVP display itch: scratched"
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cweiske.de
edited /reacji (-64) "/* Slack reacji */ replaec broken image link"
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+318) "/* Micropub for Comments */ also useful for edits/corrections?"
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petermolnar
whoa. https://github.com/majestrate/nntpchan/ "nntp based decentralized imageboard"
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ben_thatmustbeme
honestly looks more like astronomy
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: i would completely disagree with that statement, that is not how you started micropub https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Micropub&oldid=5288 majority of that page is under brainstorming, search for the word "MUST" on both pages, even just look at the first paragraph, with micropub you brain dumped ideas and it read as people welcome to put in ideas, microsub reads more like a spec that isn't open and
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KartikPrabhu
why does astronomy get such a bad rep! ;)
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aaronpk
well that's a bit harsh
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aaronpk
just because i've learned about spec writing over the past few years and now use clearer terminology doesn't mean the spec isn't "open"
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aaronpk
if I didn't want feedback/edits, I wouldn't have put it on the wiki
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ben_thatmustbeme
thats the point though, you are still writing a spec, i'm saying don't because others don't have the skill of writing a spec and its going to be really offputting
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KartikPrabhu
ben_thatmustbeme: we are of course welcome to add a brainstorming section to the "spec" since it is on the wiki
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Microsub (+888) "stub some more sections"
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aaronpk
I added a "status" section which mentions specifically that this is an early draft looking for feedback, and also an empty "indieweb examples" section so it's clear there are no implementations yet
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ben_thatmustbeme
the header section and putting yourself as editor makes it even worse though IMO
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ben_thatmustbeme
even current /micropub doesn't do that
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aaronpk
the /micropub page moved the spec content to w3.org
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ben_thatmustbeme
just wonder if that shouldn't be pushed down and have like, a protocol summary, simple flow, indieweb examples, background, etc, all up front, put the entire spec in a brainstorming section. hell even just starting it as 'login / auth is identical to micropub' and getting all of the stuff out of the way. the idea is to have really simple descriptions now so people can go off and experiment with it, not spec it
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ben_thatmustbeme
formally up front
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singpolyma
ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme has 6 karma in this channel (196 overall)
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singpolyma
I love specs, but "web devs" seem to find them scary
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Microsub (+811) "why one endpoint"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Microsub (-4) "drop header formatting from GET/POST so TOC is easier to read"
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aaronpk
i can move the auth stuff down lower. i wanted it on the page so it was easier to find rather than digging around all the other wiki pages
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[eddie]
I think the spec is useful, but I agree that auth could be summarized as "same as Micropub" and then have a details section down lower. Because I'll admit I skimmed all of the south pretty lightly to get to the "new stuff"
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[eddie]
Auth not south
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martymcguire[m]
i'm a bit confused about the term "user" with respect to clients (un)muting and (un)blocking
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: how about using /microsub for informal documentation and putting the spec on a different page
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singpolyma
can this wiki do the /microsub/spec thing for page names?
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cweiske
what is microsub?
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Loqi
The Microsub spec provides a standardized way for clients to consume and interact with feeds collected by a server https://indieweb.org/Microsub
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aaronpk
martymcguire[m]: thx, will clarify
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: yeah that's fine. That fits the pattern of other pages too
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[eddie]
aaronpk++ for some well thought out ideas for us to start experimenting with. I'm excited to play around with this stuff after indigenous.
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Loqi
aaronpk has 41 karma in this channel (1278 overall)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Microsub (+181) "move authorization details to bottom of the page"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Microsub-spec (-68) "move indieweb examples to [[Microsub]]"
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aaronparecki.com
created /Microsub (+418) "stub page for Microsub"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Microsub-spec (-39) "move brainstorming and background to [[Microsub]]"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Microsub-spec (+196) "more explanation of muting"
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eddiehinkle.com
edited /scrobble (+11) "+podcast to def"
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eddiehinkle.com
edited /scrobble (+273) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ +EddieHinkle.com"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Microsub (+551) "some more background"
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[kevinmarks]
hm, I need to make auto_link understand .social TLD now
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[kevinmarks]
and probably a few more thanks to the mastodon domains
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aaronpk
whitelisted TLDs are a losing battle now
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eddiehinkle.com
edited /User:Eddiehinkle.com (+69) "Update itches order, scratched, etc."
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ben_thatmustbeme
unless there were a sanely maintained list of TLDs that could easily be parsed
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aaronparecki.com
edited /community (+305) "add wiki user stats"
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ben_thatmustbeme
can just use this to generate the autolink rules maybe http://data.iana.org/TLD/tlds-alpha-by-domain.txt
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aaronpk
oh wow
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aaronpk
just make a giant regex out of that
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sknebel
...too slow
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ben_thatmustbeme
its okay sknebel, its the journey that counts
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[kevinmarks]
Tantek's auto_link has a giant regex, I just copied it.
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martymcguire[m]
i don't know why, but i keep being surprised at some of the strange TLDs
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[eddie]
martymcguire[m] just sent you an experimental webmention. lol. I create h-cite listen posts marked up with an experimental “u-listen-to” property. Not sure how that registers in webmention.io, but to test it out I sent one to this week’s This Week in IndieWeb (https://martymcgui.re/2017/04/08/165106/). I’m guessing it’ll end up as a “Mention”, but let me know if you see anything interesting, strange or bad with the webmention
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Loqi
[Marty McGuire] This Week in the IndieWeb Audio Edition • April 1st - 7th, 2017
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martymcguire[m]
i got the notification about it!
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[eddie]
cool ?
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[kevinmarks]
hm, though in the DF case the url to the article doesn't mean it is a copy of it, but commentary on it, so it's more like a bookmark
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[kevinmarks]
what do we think about rel="canonical me"
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martymcguire[m]
[kevinmarks]: i found the movie heartwarming, but never saw the sequel. i also think the minions branding has gone way too far.
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[eddie]
hahaha ?
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Loqi
haha
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martymcguire[m]
in seriousness: i think it's an interesting way to indicating moving sites or accounts, but it also raises a lot of questions in my mind.
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[kevinmarks]
what is not me?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "not me" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10g8
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[kevinmarks]
what is notme?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "notme" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10g9
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aaronpk
Migrating identities is really hard and I doubt there is a "simple" solution.
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martymcguire[m]
the mastodon case of moving instances that you documented on your site makes sense to me.
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martymcguire[m]
but i'd also find it really interesting if my twitter profile linked to my site with rel="canonical me"
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martymcguire[m]
to let people know which of the places i publish i consider canonical.
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[kevinmarks]
notme is a possible way to explicitly disclaim another website that links with rel=me rather than just not linking back.
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loqi.me
created /notme (+147) "prompted by [kevinmarks] and dfn added by [kevinmarks]"
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loqi.me
edited /notme (+79) "/* See Also */ new section"
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Loqi
XFN Brainstorming
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ben_thatmustbeme
agreed, i doubt there is a "simple" solution. I'm honestly more just concerned about the other side of it, how can i tell that a new identity is the correct one? So i store as many URLs for a person as i can and try to link it back together so i know identities. ideally i should be able to look if the rel-me's are all pointing to a new URL, i change to using that as the primary
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aaronpk
Honestly for most of this I think we don't need a technical solution
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aaronpk
people get new phone numbers and you figure it out
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ben_thatmustbeme
and then you get the silly people who just post their new number publicly on facebook
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[kevinmarks]
hah on the new phone number thing
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aaronpk
Migrating subscriptions would be a useful thing to happen automatically
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ben_thatmustbeme
or worse "i got a new phone / phone number, can people post their numbers here for me"
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[kevinmarks]
I am paying t-mobile despite moving to the UK so that I can still use Signal o_O
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ben_thatmustbeme
[kevinmarks]: you are moving to the UK?
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aaronpk
Just get a twilio number
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[kevinmarks]
i have moved to the UK
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aaronpk
Signal doesn't use the phone number for anything except ID/login
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martymcguire[m]
[eddie]: the listen mention that you sent showed up from webmention.io as a blank link:
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[kevinmarks]
I tried migrating the t-mobile # to google voice, but it didn't work
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martymcguire[m]
{"source"=>"https://eddiehinkle.com/listen/2017/04/this-week-in-the-indieweb-audio-edition-april-1st-finished/", "verified"=>true, "verified_date"=>"2017-04-10T15:08:09+00:00", "id"=>431678, "private"=>false, "data"=>{"author"=>{"name"=>"Eddie Hinkle", "url"=>"https://eddiehinkle.com/", "photo"=>"," target="_blank">https://webmention.io/avatar/eddiehinkle.com/cf9f85e26d4be531bc908d37f69bff1c50b50b87fd066b254f1332c3553df1a8.jpg"},
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singpolyma
[kevinmarks]: move your number to jmp.chat ;)
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martymcguire[m]
"url"=>"https://eddiehinkle.com/listen/2017/04/this-week-in-the-indieweb-audio-edition-april-1st-finished/", "name"=>nil, "content"=>nil, "published"=>"2017-04-09T13:30:54-04:00", "published_ts"=>1491759054}, "activity"=>{"type"=>"link", "sentence"=>"Eddie Hinkle posted '' linking to https://martymcgui.re/2017/04/08/165106/", "sentence_html"=>"<a href="https://eddiehinkle.com/">Eddie Hinkle</a> posted '' linking
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Loqi
[Marty McGuire] This Week in the IndieWeb Audio Edition • April 1st - 7th, 2017
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh dang, i was hoping to make it out to california for one of the IWCs so i could finally actually meet you
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martymcguire[m]
ooh sorry folks, that was a lot more data than i expected.
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[kevinmarks]
yes, but it insists on checking you ID by SMS to that SIM, doesn't allow you to type in the code
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aaronpk
no it doesn't
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aaronpk
my Signal phone number is a google voice number
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ben_thatmustbeme
you have to wait for it to time-out on that part
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ben_thatmustbeme
as i think i had an issue with that because i use hangouts for texting and it didn't like it
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singpolyma
Pretty sure we've tested Signal registrations with jmp.chat numbers
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aaronpk
this must be an Android thing
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ben_thatmustbeme
after it timed out it asked me to input it
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aaronpk
apps don't get SMS/sim information on iOS
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aaronpk
iOS security win
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singpolyma
Even on Android my phones never knew what my number was :P
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[kevinmarks]
ok, trying agin for the timeout
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[kevinmarks]
I don't know what my number is
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[eddie]
martymcguire[m]: ahhh, okay. Hmmm alrighty, I probably won’t send webmentions for those then ?
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[eddie]
Good experiment
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[kevinmarks]
oh theres a call me option
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[eddie]
For now I might just send ? reacji seperately for indieweb podcasts that I create a listen post for.
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sknebel
[eddie]: why not both in one?
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martymcguire[m]
[eddie]: chrisaldrich has also made /listen posts that sent me webmentions. he uses u-listen.
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Loqi
[Chris Aldrich] ? This Week in the IndieWeb Audio Edition, March 25th – 31st, 2017 http://1.gravatar.com/avatar/d5fb4e498fe609cc29b04e5b7ad688c4?s=42&d=mm&r=pg
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[eddie]
ohhh, really. u-listen. That comes acros okay?
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martymcguire[m]
my site doesn't understand u-listen, but there is still some content in his markup
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[eddie]
Yeah, content is important ? That’s really the key I was going for
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aaronpk
shouldn't that be "u-listen-of" instead of "u-listen" similar to "u-like-of"?
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martymcguire[m]
incoming giant json paste
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martymcguire[m]
sent a long message: martymcguire[m]_2017-04-10_15:42:14.txt - https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/rXXyfFVlpBBwRGWfTFvUPfwZ
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martymcguire[m]
oh god. i'll move these to pastebin in the future or something. sorry folks.
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aaronpk
heh matrix took care of that for you
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh cool, this week in indieweb audio edition, hadn't noticed that before, I was hoping to have an indieweb podcast some day
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ben_thatmustbeme
martymcguire[m]++
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Loqi
martymcguire has 2 karma in this channel (15 overall)
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martymcguire[m]
oh wow it sure did. thanks, matrix! i don't know if i should get used to that.
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[eddie]
aaronpk: u-listen-of makes sense. I had u-listen-to but keeping similar endings makes sense with ‘of’
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[eddie]
I also think chrisaldrich is using p-listen because the value is showing up as the name, rather than the url
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martymcguire[m]
it is indeed p-listen
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[eddie]
ohhh, I think my issue is that my p-summary of what is happening is within h-cite
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[eddie]
I need to have it part of my h-entry
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[eddie]
I’ll try to do a u-listen-of to match u-like-of and tweak my formats to make sure the right attributes appear in h-entry vs. the h-cite
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[eddie]
That might get me some content ?
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sknebel
(hey, pastebins is a good use case for syndication to IRC)
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petermolnar
had anyone tried this so far? https://caddyserver.com/
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[chrisaldrich]
martymcguire[m]: though you're not actually showing "listens" as such?
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eddiehinkle.com
edited /scrobble (+95) "/* Eddie Hinkle */ update eddiehinkle.com listen information"
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martymcguire[m]
[chrisaldrich]: my display handling is a pretty simple mapping of the content from webmention.io, which sends "listen" posts as "link"s.
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martymcguire[m]
without fetching the content of the source URL myself, there's no easy way to ID it as a listen.
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martymcguire[m]
i will likely need to start fetching my own context data for things wm.io identifies as "link"s
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sknebel
or you could ask webmention.io to include all u-xxx classes in some field
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sknebel
(as in, ask aaron or send him a pull request that does so ;))
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[eddie]
chrisaldrich: When you have a moment and feel like it maybe add your post listen info here? http://indieweb.org/listen
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[eddie]
unless it’s somewhere else and I missed it ?
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martymcguire[m]
sknebel: ;}
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aaronpk
yeah the approach i'm taking with webmention.io (which gets the data from xray) is to be vocabulary-aware rather than passing everything through blindly
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[eddie]
It’s tough, with something more experimental like listens, it does seem useful that it fallsback to link
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martymcguire[m]
ChrisAldrich: hmm. your commentary on this listen post is buried inside an e-content which also includes a lot of wrapper info: http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fboffosocko.com%2F2017%2F04%2F01%2Fthis-week-in-the-indieweb-audio-edition-march-25th-31st-2017%2F
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[eddie]
Because if nothing else, with a p-summary/e-content, at least if the post says “Eddie listened to X”, if it’s a link then most webmention displays would show it. If we transform it into a listen, then there’s no backwards compatibility
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[eddie]
Although, I guess I also don’t know that I wasn to spam all of martymcguire[m]’s mentions with “Eddie listened to X” haha
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Loqi
rofl
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[chrisaldrich]
martymcguire[m] I was just noticing that. Why is WordPress always such a bear. Looks like you're picking up context which should be outside of the piece too. I'm working on some themeing this morning, we'll see if I can tweak it.
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[chrisaldrich]
eddie I haven't added the example just yet as I'm still working on it. Ultimately it's also an example of what all WordPress sites that use Post Kinds will show up as too...
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martymcguire[m]
[eddie]: i think webmention.io understands updates?
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[eddie]
ohhhh gotcha!
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[eddie]
updates?
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martymcguire[m]
in theory if you update the page and resend the webmention i'll get an update
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[eddie]
Oh yeah, definitely!
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martymcguire[m]
of course, my site doesn't update wms in realtime, so you'll have to bug me to look at it.
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[eddie]
I was discussing the pros versus cons of webmention.io refering to my post as a “listen” versus a “link”
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[eddie]
as a link, it gets backwards compatibility. But that also means on each of your podcasts you’re gonna get a mention “Eddie listened to X”, where as with a listen you could aggregate it like likes with a number of facepile.
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aaronpk
if there are enough examples of publishing this property i'll add it to webmention.io
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[chrisaldrich]
I think that /listen posts can be useful in showing the popularity of a particular podcast as "social" proof in some sense. And in the near term, they can spur the question, "How does she do that?", and "How can I do that?" which further indieweb in general.
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aaronpk
open an issue here with some references https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/issues
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[eddie]
aaronpk: :thumbsup:
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[eddie]
chrisaldrich: How do you feel about “u-listen-of as opposed to p-listen”? Or is that not your markup, is that someone else’s?
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GWG
It is technically acegiak who requested it of me
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GWG
This was in medieval times when likes were likes
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[eddie]
GWG: Ahhh gotcha. so like-of used to be like, so listen was listen?
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aaronparecki.com
edited /tools (+22) "move ssl.indieweb.org"
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GWG
Basically.
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GWG
So, I have no objection to changing it if there is a consensus.
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[eddie]
Gotcha :thumbsup:
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[chrisaldrich]
GWG, I think modifying it to stay in line with other current mf2 would be worthwhile
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[chrisaldrich]
may be worth looking at other types like watch, read, etc. too.
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[chrisaldrich]
eddie u- is for wrapping URLs while p- is for titles &c in general.
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[eddie]
Yep ? But a podcast should generally be a URL, right?
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[chrisaldrich]
It depends on where the URL shows up within the set up and that could be nested inside other markup which includes a u-url if I'm not mistaken
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[chrisaldrich]
I essentially think of likes, reads, watches, listens, favorites as bookmarks of a specific type of content. That may make things easier conceptually.
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GWG
Does anyone consume them yet?
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[chrisaldrich]
Not that I've seen, though martymcguire[m] may do so for listens?? ?
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[chrisaldrich]
I could see a use for /read posts for major newspapers, magazines, and online outlets.
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GWG
I agree. But I have to ask the practical questions.
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GWG
If no one is consuming, changing to match shouldn't be an issue. [chrisaldrich], you know I'm working on making that change extremely easy
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GWG
tantek: Do you have an opinion on listen vs listen-of in the post like/like-of world?
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GWG
I was going to ask in #microformats, but its a bit spammy in there right now.
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martymcguire[m]
chrisaldrich: I just updated my display of your listens a bit but don't yet consume "listen" or "listen-of", etc.
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GWG
I can change it for anyone who uses the Post Kinds plugin before anyone does.
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tantek
GWG - re: listen vs listen-of, could you point me to where the use-cases are documented for this explicit markup?
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GWG
It needs more documenting
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GWG
When I marked up listen at acegiak's request, it was more of a placeg
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GWG
placeholder
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martymcguire[m]
[eddie]: can you add a link to an example post to your example section on /listen ?
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tantek
GWG, placeholder markup is a waste of time, and miscommunicates support of something for which there is none
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tantek
I would recommend avoiding placeholder markup
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tantek
GWG, there are no consuming code use-cases on /listen
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GWG
That is what I said
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tantek
where?
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GWG
12:44:08 NYC time
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gregorlove.com
edited /2017/Bellingham (+423) "/* IndieWebCamp Bellingham 2017 */ update text per /2017. Add Accessibility Notice"
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eddiehinkle.com
edited /scrobble (+130) "/* Eddie Hinkle */ add example link"
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[eddie]
martymcguire[m]: I added a link to an example post from my /listen section
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martymcguire[m]
[eddie]: the markup on your listen post now has two name properties for the entry, one blank and one with your text
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[eddie]
Ahhhhhhh *raises fist against jekyll template*
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[eddie]
:thumbsup:
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doubleloop.net
edited /2017/Berlin/Guest_List (+230) "I'm attending"
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gregorlove.com
edited /2017/Bellingham (+97) "/* URLs */ +upcoming"
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[eddie]
martymcguire[m] should be fixed now
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martymcguire[m]
yuppp
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[eddie]
Phew ?
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aaronpk
i started toying with the idea of what it would look like to use the Upcoming software to be our own events site on events.indieweb.org
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aaronpk
i have a bunch of notes, wondering where i should dump those
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aaronpk
That'll work
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aaronpk
We also have some notes on /events but that didn't seem quite appropriate
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tantek.com
edited /community (+48) "/* Wiki Users */ add a column"
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gregorlove.com
created /presentations_about_the_indieweb (+27) "prompted by aaronpk"
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tantek.com
edited /presentations (+3) "dfn for lookup first, then relateds"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Upcoming.org (+754) "/* Brainstorming */ using upcoming for our events. initial brainstorming. more notes later."
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tantek.com
edited /Upcoming.org (+187) "/* Feature Requirements */ add a couple more and ..."
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tantek
aaronpk++ nice start. added a couple
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Loqi
aaronpk has 42 karma in this channel (1279 overall)
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tantek
there's a good chance that if we figure out small enough brainstorms, then we can start adding support incrementally to Upcoming accordingly
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matthiasott.com
edited /2017/Düsseldorf/Guest_List (+490) "/* Participants */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /Upcoming.org (-67) "shorten dfn"
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aaronpk
Nice. My last Check-in used the photo update feature
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aaronpk
cause I checked in right before going under a tunnel
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /planet (+206) "/* How */ link discussion from today"
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www.boffosocko.com
edited /Upcoming.org (+84) "brainstorming: check as attended"
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /planet (+318) "new section: Webmention backfeed"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Upcoming.org (+752) "/* Using Upcoming for IndieWeb Events */ split into required/good ideas/complete"
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loqi.me
created /support (+256) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek"
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loqi.me
edited /report_abuse (+14) "tantek added "[[support]]" to "See Also""
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gregorlove.com
edited /2017/Bellingham (+6) "/* Schedule */ group photo and lunch day 2"
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