#dev 2017-05-15

2017-05-15 UTC
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eli.li edited /User:Eli.li (+43) (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress/Plugins (+6) "updated URLs" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /WordPress/Plugins (-237) "forms are now part of the main plugin" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /content_management_system (+1746) "strong disagree on removing the table, thus: Undo revision 36582 by [[Special:Contributions/Gregorlove.com|Gregorlove.com]] ([[User talk:Gregorlove.com|talk]])" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /content_management_system (+3) "/* Examples */ move category list, adjust text" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /next-iwc (-2) "next up Nürnberg!" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu what's the use of the table on the https://indieweb.org/content_management_system#Examples ?
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KartikPrabhu also Django is not a CMS in any real sense
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tantek Who users Django as a CMS?
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tantek uses*
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KartikPrabhu Django is not a CMS, I use it as my backend
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that's a good reason to remove it from the table, and say so why
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tantek I like the "I use this!" column
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KartikPrabhu ok let me run this by you then. I think Django is not a CMS because if you install Django, you don't get anything out-of-thebox. you have to write your own CMS on top of it
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tantek that works
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KartikPrabhu :thumbsup:
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tantek let's ask loqi
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tantek what is django?
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Loqi Django is a python web application framework used in some IndieWeb projects https://indieweb.org/Django
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tantek there you have it :)
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KartikPrabhu yup ^ web application framework
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tantek these kinds of lists / tables have a history of getting bloated with non-thing (e.g. non-CMSs) and dead projects. See all the Wiikipedia lists of blogging systems, CMSs, microblogging, etc.
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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tantek so it's going to take very deliberate / active pruning to make such a table useful
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KartikPrabhu also, Wikipedias list of numbers is awesome! it says "This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it." :P
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tantek KartikPrabhu: looks like Django got added because it has Category:CMS added by gRegorLove - maybe ask him why?
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tantek and maybe fix the /Django page too?
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KartikPrabhu I think /Django page seems ok apart from the category which I'll edit soon
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tantek thanks!
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sknebel The use of the table is that it provides a quick overview without requiring clicking through to individual pages and parsing info out of the text. If it grows to much this can be adjusted (I'm not convinced all columns are necessary)
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sknebel on more meta level, it sends a *terrible* message of how we treat contributions if a pair of new contributors does their first edits, spents the sunday of an IWC an to rework a page that hasn't been touched for a year, presents that at the demos and a large part of it is reverted within hours
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tantek ^^^ that's true
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sknebel (worst case, they appear in Nürnberg again, want to show it in the introductions and it's gone)
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tantek I missed any chat about that in IRC.
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KartikPrabhu yeah why/when did that happen?
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tantek did anyone find out from gRegorLove what the reasoning was?
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sknebel I felt strongly enough about it to just do it, but I of course wanted to ask him later before we turn this into an edit war ;)
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tantek sknebel, glad you did, I think your point about community / recent activity is important
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kartikprabhu.com edited /Django (-18) "remove CMS category as Django is not a CMS out-of-the-box" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu speak of the devil ^
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tantek lol
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kartikprabhu.com edited /content_management_system (-51) "/* Examples */ remove CMS category as Django is not a CMS out-of-the-box" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu eh sorry copy-pasta reason
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tantek sknebel: to be fair, there was a lot more improvement to the CMS page than just the table.
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: your edits to the /CMS page were being disputed/being discussed
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tantek though I suppose a summary table was the most visible / obvious bit
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sknebel yes, but the table was something they explicitly called out during the demos and asked for help with
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tantek sknebel: makes sense
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sknebel gRegorLove: I disagreed with your decision to remove the table from /CMS and thus reverted it and moved the category-listing below it. IMHO it is useful (once expanded) and it feels bad to remove a major part of something 2 new contributors (they've been to IWCs before, but AFAIK not been active on the wiki) spent IWC-sunday on. I think it's worth improving it instead
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gRegorLove Ok, no worries
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gRegorLove KartikPrabhu: For not being a CMS, they chose a weird domain name for Django :)
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KartikPrabhu yeah I know
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: oh oops, no Django-cms is a CMS built on Django
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gRegorLove Aha. Interesting
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KartikPrabhu this is the actual Django domain https://www.djangoproject.com/
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seblog.nl edited /events/2017-05-17-homebrew-website-club (+0) "/* Berlin */ Berlin is GMT+2 now" (view diff)
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gRegorLove tantek, sknebel: Agreed, I hadn't considered the message it sends to contributors. Apologies for that. In general I think the table will be harder to manage, particularly the "I use this!" when we have #IndieWeb_Examples on each CMS page.
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tantek OTOH the "I use this!" could be a really nice friendly summary, especially if it used {{ }} people templates instead of just names / domains
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gRegorLove Context: https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-05-14#t1494802490430000
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Loqi [gRegorLove] I'm thinking for /content_management_system#Examples we can use categories and the {{categorytree}} template to list them.
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tantek does anyone actually understand the category tree template? and does it actually do anything as nice a summary as a table?
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gRegorLove See /CMS
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tantek a list of CMSs is pretty boring / useless - nothing compelling about that
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sknebel gRegorLove: agreed – I had considered replacing it with a link to the examples sections, and I think that'd be a viable solution if that column either gets to large or is totally ignored. or we could call out specific examples there (e.g. someone a newbie might talk to for help)
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tantek no way to compare them, see how "real" each is, how indieweb each is, how in-use they are
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tantek etc.
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KartikPrabhu I suppose one could "extract" Indieweb examples from the individual CMS pages?
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tantek.com edited /events/2017-05-17-homebrew-website-club (+0) "/* San Francisco */ indie event" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: "extract" sounds like code. that someone would have to maintain, which only swaps one maintenace problem (copy editing) for a worse one (code functioning)
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KartikPrabhu true
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gRegorLove I guess. But the majority of those are also on /indieweb_network in a table too, so that's 3 locations now to maintain similar information.
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gRegorLove No worries though, not going to get in an edit war. :)
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tantek gRegorLove: I think I already made a distinction with indieweb_network
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gRegorLove I understand the different purposes. Majority of /CMS is on the former though
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tantek completely different audience
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gRegorLove the /CMS table, I mean
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tantek that "though" doesn't make sense in the context of the difference
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tantek https://chat.indieweb.org/2017-05-14#t1494804410908000
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Loqi [tantek] gRegorLove: I think /indieweb_network is more for advocacy tracking
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gRegorLove I saw that
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KartikPrabhu what is indieweb_network?
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Loqi indieweb network is an overview of IndieWeb friendly applications, silos, CMSes, and platforms and which specifications support https://indieweb.org/indieweb_network
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www.svenknebel.de edited /content_management_system (+74) "/* Examples */ add info for drupal, linkify/format tech stacks" (view diff)
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tantek which frankly is a subset
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tantek since not all CMSs are /friendly
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gRegorLove KartikPrabhu: Worth distinguishing Django CMS on /Django or a separate page?
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gRegorLove I added the Django CMS URL to the dfn not knowing it was different.
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gregorlove.com edited /content_management_system (+7) "/* Examples */ +me" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: not unless someone here uses Django-cms
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gregorlove.com created /nodeJS (+21) "r" (view diff)
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gRegorLove what is flat file
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Loqi File Storage is the practice of storing main (primary) site content in flat files in a filesystem https://indieweb.org/flat-file
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tantek worth distinguishing Django-CMS (however the canonical spelling) since it has caused confusion
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gRegorLove what is flat files
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "flat files" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gRegorLove flat files is /file-storage
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loqi.me created /flat_files (+25) "prompted by gRegorLove and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is django cms?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "django cms" yet. Would you like to create it?
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gregorlove.com edited /Django (+2) "fix dfn link. Django CMS != Django" (view diff)
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gRegorLove django CMS is a [[content management system]] built on [[Django]] https://www.django-cms.org
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loqi.me created /django_CMS (+120) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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gRegorLove django CMS << [[Django]]
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loqi.me edited /django_CMS (+30) "/* See Also */ new section" (view diff)
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Loqi ok, I added "[[Django]]" to the "See Also" section of /django_CMS
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gRegorLove Django << [[django CMS]]
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loqi.me edited /Django (+17) "gRegorLove added "[[django CMS]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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Loqi ok, I added "[[django CMS]]" to the "See Also" section of /Django
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gregorlove.com edited /django_CMS (+2) "link dfn" (view diff)
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tantek one way to improve the summary table might be to limit it to those with people in the community actually using them
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tantek and then let the embedded list below that be the more comprehensive list
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gregorlove.com edited /django_CMS (+17) "category" (view diff)
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tantek with notes saying hey if you use one of the below and don't see it in the table, add it and put yourself in the "I use this!" column
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tantek thoughts?
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gRegorLove Sounds good
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eddiehinkle.com edited /checkin (+275) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ +eddiehinkle.com" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /content_management_system (+208) "/* Examples */ expand Known, wordpress" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /content_management_system (-12) "/* Examples */ ProcessWire plugins link" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /next-iwc (+0) "double redirect" (view diff)
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gRegorLove when is next-iwc
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/next-iwc
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gRegorLove No h-event on ^
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tantek on /2017/Nuremberg?
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gRegorLove Yeah
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www.svenknebel.de edited /2017/Nuremberg (+35) "add h-event (?)" (view diff)
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sknebel when is next-iwc?
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Loqi IndieWebCamp Nuremberg 2017 is on 2017-05-20 at tollwerk https://indieweb.org/next-iwc
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tantek nice!
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tantek sknebel++
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Loqi sknebel has 10 karma in this channel (30 overall)
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sknebel was easy, almost all the markup was there, just not wrapped in an h-event
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eddiehinkle.com created /task (+1325) "Create task definition and examples at eddiehinkle.com" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rsvp (+129) "/* Text Design */ "hosting " text shorthand for RSVP yes and more possible variants" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rsvp (+187) "RSVP "hosting" implemented, tidy up my example listing a bit" (view diff)
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Zegnat !tell aaronpk, did you mention a thing about storing encrypted secret keys in github last weekend? Do you have a write-up about that?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu did a neat flex-box thingie! Moved my site navigation to top in source order but it still shows up at the bottom visually!
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sknebel Zegnat: pretty sure that was something specific for Google app engine deloyments
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Zegnat Ah
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KartikPrabhu what is app-engine?
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Loqi Google App Engine is a an application hosting service that supports several programming languages https://indieweb.org/App_Engine
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sknebel hm, can you use the free app-engine tier gueranteed free? as in, they'll cut you off instead of billing you if you exceed the quota?
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gregorlove.com edited /pronoun (+494) "/* Silo Examples */ MetaFilter+citation" (view diff)
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gRegorLove bear or snarfed might know, sknebel
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bear perks up
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bear you get throttled
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bear well, nuances...
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bear you get throttled if your still on the free-tier-that-is-really-NNN-hours-of-credit
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bear and then they will start to bill you - not sure if you can get surprised with a $1000 bill like you can with AWS
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bear i'm going to defer to snarfed and aaronpk -- they have more long running experience than I do -- I always jump straight to a billed plan
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gregorlove.com edited /pronoun (+397) "start == Why == by summarizing Twitter thread" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu is meta-description useful for anything?
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KartikPrabhu is removing cruft from site
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gRegorLove If you want to specify the text that shows up in search results, yeah. Up to however many characters.
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KartikPrabhu hmm ok, it remains then for now
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gRegorLove Otherwise they'll use the body text, not sure how "smart" that process is
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gRegorLove Think Google has a tool to preview what a page would look like in search results
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KartikPrabhu lol! Google Webmaster "Structured Data" does not find any on a blogspot blog!
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gRegorLove Hah
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gRegorLove How about the official Google blog?
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tantek is that google.blog or blog.google?
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gRegorLove lulz
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gRegorLove The latter
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gRegorLove ♫ Too many TLDs... (to the tune of "Too many cooks")
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: that is not my "property" on Google Webmaster so can't check that
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KartikPrabhu should the comments section be <aside> or <section> ?
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gRegorLove No schema.org I can see on blog.google, but yes on individual posts like https://blog.google/products/search/making-plans-we-can-help/
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tantek KartikPrabhu: <div> works fine for that. I think <aside> only makes sense in the context of an <article>
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tantek IMO
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KartikPrabhu right, I have <article> in my markup for posts
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tantek I see <aside> as reflecting the voice of the author, not external content
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gRegorLove Well that's odd: "http://blog.google:443/..." for the amphtml URL
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tantek but that's totally just a personal opinion
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KartikPrabhu https://www.w3.org/TR/2013/CR-html5-20130806/sections.html#the-article-element uses <section>
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tantek I'm pretty convinced <section> is useless and confusing. Just use <div>
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KartikPrabhu but but semantic doohickey!
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KartikPrabhu ;)
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tantek I know. It's sad. Sad to have promoted too much of that in the past as well. :/
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KartikPrabhu i guess the document outlne algorithm didn't catch on for anything useful
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tantek no it did not
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tantek I kind of make this point pretty strongly every once in a while in #whatwg and annoy the few remaining advocates of the document outline algorithm.
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tantek It'll die eventually and get scrapped from WHATWG HTML
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KartikPrabhu do HTML backcompat stuff rules allow for scrapping previous standards?
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KartikPrabhu I mean <b> and <i> still exist
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tantek b and i are used on actual web pages for actual user visible effects
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tantek whereas section is just a fancy div
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tantek that doesn't look any fancier to users
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KartikPrabhu i suppose so
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KartikPrabhu I use section all the time though, I like it
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tantek just as a name for a tag? or for any particular user-visible effect?
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KartikPrabhu much better than LaTeX where you have \chapter \section \subsection \subsubsection
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tantek lol subsubsection
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I use it mainly to organise my post for writing purposes, and to link the section heading to the section element
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gRegorLove I think <section> can be visually pleasing amidst div soup, but that's not a strong reason to use it :)
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: visually pleasing inside code is differnt from what tantek is saying
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gRegorLove I know, just a thought
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KartikPrabhu also one is free to make <hoodunkle> as a tag too :P
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schmarty "HTML5: One is free to make <hoodunkie>"
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KartikPrabhu schmarty: it is <hoodunkle> not <hoodukie> stop messing up my namespace ;)
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schmarty begins writing W3C spec about removing the letter "i" and "l" from the list of allowed characters in HTML tags to avoid ambiguity
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KartikPrabhu lol! they should all be replaced by "|"
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KartikPrabhu in other things, srcset is weird. you sort of need to know the CSS inside the HTML to set the "sizes" attributes properly!
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gRegorLove How about <hoodauntie>?
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: I think <hoodunkle> is more semantic and descriptive
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KartikPrabhu things tantek is going to kick us off to #chat
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KartikPrabhu does anyone use srcset and sizes for their images yet?
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tantek what is srcset
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Loqi srcset is an HTML <img> tag extension, an implementation of responsive images https://indieweb.org/srcset
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gRegorLove adactio uses srcset iirc
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tantek https://indieweb.org/srcset#IndieWeb_Examples
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KartikPrabhu I want to ask how they do it. I am having trouble coupling the CSS and HTML. since my article's have own CSS
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KartikPrabhu petermolnar: how do you use srcset and sizes for your images? I am having trouble generating the "sizes" attibute since that depends on the CSS styling
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KartikPrabhu searches adactio.com and finds nothing about own use :(
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gRegorLove I see some in the stream on https://adactio.com/, but not on the permalinks
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Loqi Jeremy Keith
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: yeah I think the markup is there but I want to know how to reasonably manage the whole thing if the CSS is changing/post dependent
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KartikPrabhu whcih is why i have currently restricted it to my featured images in feeds https://kartikprabhu.com/#latest-articles because that is less likely to change