#dev 2017-05-24

2017-05-24 UTC
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strugee.net edited /User:Strugee.net (+154) "Note that Stratic generates mf2 markup" (view diff)
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aaronpk just had a moment of realization, and took less than an hour to implement a fix that has been bugging me for at least a year
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aaronpk i now cache a hash of the file contents in the database, and when viewing a post, if the hash has changed, i rebuild the DB index
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aaronpk this saves me the step of going in and running the "rebuild index" command when I hand-edit files
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gRegorLove Nice!
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KartikPrabhu nice idea aaronpk
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: by file contents you mean the entire file right; not the "content" in the post sense
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aaronpk yep!
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KartikPrabhu cool
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aaronpk before any parsing is done
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aaronpk and since i have to load each file from disk to display the post, i get a chance to check the hash every time a post is rendered
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[kevinmarks] Does this mean that you can use the hash as an etag?
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calumryan.com edited /events/2017-05-31-homebrew-website-club (+396) "/* UK */ Adding London (new layout)" (view diff)
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calumryan.com edited /events/2017-05-31-homebrew-website-club (-137) "/* London */ Remove redundant RSVP section" (view diff)
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@WendyandCharles ReadersGazette: BLOG Indie Author Answers by Jim Heskett http://www.thejugglingauthor.com/indieauth/ Get help writing your book #bookbloggers 89 (twitter.com/_/status/867010584113545216)
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aaronpk for those of you who support salmentions, do you do any sort of rate limiting / throttling of how often you send webmentions when your post is updated?
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voxpelli aaronpk: not yet I think, that's one of the reasons I haven't launched my salmention support yet. That + proper diffing/sanity checks of downstream salmentions before forwarding them
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aaronpk i just saw my site send a whole bunch of webmentions after receiving a new comment on a blog post, and i'm a little concerned about how much traffic that generates when two responses come in in a row
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sknebel aaronpk I guess your checkins also spam those you mention in them quite a bit? creation and then ownyourswarm adding data, coins, ... bit-by-bit?
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aaronpk ooh yeah totally
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sknebel (ask sebsel, afaik he gets an e-mail for each webmention he receives)
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aaronpk luckily there aren't many links in my checkins, but yeah it sends webmentions when i tag people in checkins
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voxpelli I have a general throttling / rate limiting per domain, but that one is pretty permissive, like one or maybe even a couple of requests per minute
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voxpelli and I'm not sure whether I even dedupe Salmentions that are throttled or whether I still send the same amount of pings, just with some delays between them
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (+5) "link to w3c url" (view diff)
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[sebsel] yep, I got a lot of mentions last week :)
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aaronpk hehe
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[sebsel] And I still have less e-mails than mentions on my site, so somewhere on the line an e-mailprovider is not happy with it
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[sebsel] I kind of want to make a notification centre for them, like facebooks world-icon-with-counter.
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aaronpk maybe time to build a /mentions page so you can see them on your site without relying on email
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[sebsel] yeah, exactly that!
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aaronpk i really need to do that too
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Zegnat I am working on a /mentions page now that I am working on receiving private webmentions. Going to be my main /next-hwc goal
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aaronpk Nice
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[sebsel] Sounds good Zegnat! I’m taking a break this week, but might be starting on something similar next week.
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@aaronpk @dropshareformac Micropub is a @w3c Recommendation now! I'd love to use Dropshare as a Media Endpoint https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/#media-endpoint (twitter.com/_/status/867396120737071104)
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aaronpk Oh yay new twitter search term added
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Loqi giggles
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aaronpk cant use just "Micropub" as a search term but "w3c micropub" works
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sknebel I'm currently trying to get notifications to irc to work
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aaronpk Using tiktokbot?
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sknebel yes
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aaronpk Sweet. Should be pretty straightforward I hope
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sknebel but for some reason it won't talk to my local irc server, and I have no idea why
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sknebel (and the topic of "why does all IRC server software assume you've done this since the 90s and know all the black magic involved anyways" is also still open :P but for only local, single user usage I can live with very limited configuration for now)
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aaronpk oh gosh yes that's a good summary of the irc situation
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aaronpk fwiw I run ngircd both locally and as my private irc server on Linode. It's pretty easy to configure
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sknebel D'oh, server != host in config. works now :P
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sknebel I've just set up a basic server config for now and firewalled it off from everything, as long as I don't want to allow other users on it that is fine
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sknebel ideally I'd like something where I can easily require SASL-Auth against some external auth source and be sure everyone else can't do anything, haven't found anything that was obvious enough to configure for that
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aaronpk yeah i just use a server password :P
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vanderven.se martijn edited /events/2017-05-31-homebrew-website-club () "(-4015) Move to the new layout. RSVPs within event blocks." (view diff)
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Zegnat Alright, I hope I didn’t make any mistakes there ^^^
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Zegnat Copied 05-17 as much as possible, and moved the information over. Remove Gothenburg event as that might just be replaced by Virtual EU.
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schmarty Zegnat: a quick spot check looks okay!
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schmarty might want to move the virtual EU event up to put it in line with the timezone ordering?
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Zegnat I am not sure what to do there. If someone wants to do a virtual US it might be better to have those two grouped under 1 virtual heading, was my reasoning.
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schmarty Zegnat: that also seems totally reasonable
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@aaronpk @ummjackson You can use the https://micro.blog/ iOS app to post to your own Micropub website, and the site also sends Webmentions! (twitter.com/_/status/867406858805420032)
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aaronpk sure would be nice if chrome told you *why* it thought a page was insecure
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aaronpk i think chrome is caching my https cert :/
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cweiske keep-alive?
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aaronpk ooh maybe
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aaronpk a new incognito window gets the new cert
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aaronpk no idea how to tell it to hang up tho
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cweiske send a Connection:Close from your server
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cweiske.de edited /Tiny_Tiny_RSS (+74) "/* Features */ link micropub plugin" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh yeah huh
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cweiske.de edited /Micropub/Clients (+188) "add tt-rss-micropub" (view diff)
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aaronpk something is forcing it to return connection: keep-alive
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cweiske the client if forcing the server? really?
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tantek hmm, sounds like an interesting server admin problem
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tantek what is keep-alive?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "keep-alive" yet. Would you like to create it?
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aaronpk i think something about the nginx server isn't letting my php code send the connection header
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cweiske.de edited /feed_reader (+104) "link news_indieweb" (view diff)
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aaronpk i give up
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aaronpk now i see "Connection: close" for a curl request, but it doesn't show up as a response header in chrome
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aaronpk at some point this will time out so whatever
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voxpelli aaronpk: just a thought: Do you have Serviceworkers and do they impact anything?
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aaronpk I don't
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voxpelli Can you restart the web server? Then it should drop any connections? No?
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jeremycherfas Zegnat: I was looking at [[hwc]] and wondering whether What shouldn’t be right at the top of the page.
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Zegnat Maybe, jeremycherfas. /next-hwc actually has 2 What categories. The bottom one could be merged into the top one
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jeremycherfas That might be best
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tantek what is Connection: close?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Connection: close" yet. Would you like to create it?
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jeremycherfas Seems that /next-howc has no content. Is this /events/2017-05-31-homebrew-website-club a better one to edit, or is there a template?
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tantek should be copied from 2017-05-17
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tantek that was the one that got the nice re-org of RSVP into the Where
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tantek and in fact, 2017-05-31 should be updated to be like 2017-05-17
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sknebel it is already as far as I can tell?
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Zegnat tantek, yes, I fixed that earlier today.
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schmarty Zegnat++
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Loqi zegnat has 7 karma in this channel (51 overall)
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Zegnat jeremycherfas, sorry, /next-hwc is just a redirect to whatever the next date is. The one to edit is indeed the /events/* one
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jeremycherfas OK
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Zegnat tantek: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=events%2F2017-05-31-homebrew-website-club&action=historysubmit&diff=36896&oldid=36892 - feel free to point out mistakes so I can get it right next time
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Zegnat disappears for dinner
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jeremycherfas.net edited /events/2017-05-31-homebrew-website-club (+889) "/* What */ Moved and consolidated --~~~~" (view diff)
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tantek regarding the whats, there's a distinction between the (timeless) summary description, and the specific topics for this week
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tantek the "What" section is supposed to be for specific topics this week
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tantek hence why it's below
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tantek but open to re-organizing
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jeremycherfas I’ve left the topics in place, but moved and consolidated the What information. It is still pretty reptitive, but that’s OK for people who are skimming, I think.
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jeremycherfas BTW, I replied to https://jeena.net/events/25 but it doesn’t seem to have been picked up.
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Loqi Virtual Homebrew Website Club https://jeena.net/system/events/header_images/000/000/025/big/indiewebcamp-logo-lockup-color_3x.png?1495546707
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www.1500wordmtu.com profile lindner edited /site-deaths (+424) "Imzy.com going away." (view diff)
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tantek what is 1500wordmtu?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "1500wordmtu" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek huh
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plindner Sad about Imzy
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tantek plindner what is 1500wordmtu?
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plindner hrm?
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plindner my site is 1500wordmtu.com
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plindner is this some weird indieauth thing?
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tantek plindner only weird in that you used a subpath of your site rather than just the domain
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tantek see: https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=36903&oldid=36822&rcid=36822
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plindner Not intentionally - ui fail
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tantek where it says "Www.1500wordmtu.com profile lindner"
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plindner let me try again
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tantek what URL did you enter to sign-in to indieauth?
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plindner http://www.1500wordmtu.com/ (the bare domain fails due to redirects)
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plindner looking
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tantek what is www?
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Loqi www in the context of the IndieWeb is an unnecessary subdomain on personal domain name https://indieweb.org/www
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plindner sigh. maybe need to get off hosted-Known
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tantek odd, didn't realized hosted known forced you to use a / profile / username URL
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tantek or is that the source of the www?
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plindner Two separate problems I'm guessing.
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tantek definitely interested in helping discover / document the source of such problems, and fixes / workarounds
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plindner So known is multiuser but has themes optimized for single vs multiple.
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plindner goes to look at markup
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plindner [also don't remember seeing the full url during indieauth flow..]
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plindner Single user setting help text: "Is this a single-user site? If so, your profile information will be shown at the top of the homepage."
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tantek that makes sense, now was that the default? or was multiuser the default?
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tantek or was it a side effect of the theme you chose?
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plindner It was set to single-user, but I'll bet that this setting is not accounted for in parts of the code and /profile/$username URL gets returned instead
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tantek hmm that definitely sounds like a bug worth reporting
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tantek we can !tell benwerd here also if we can find something specific for further investigation
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plindner It worked in the past, so something regressed.
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plindner The approval form has a post-param "me: http://www.1500wordmtu.com/profile/lindner"
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Loqi Paul Lindner
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plindner Perhaps related to changes in https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1499
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Loqi [paulcmal] #1499 IndieAuth endpoint does not support multi-user
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tantek !tell benwerd seems like something regressed recently in Known (hosted Known even) single vs multiuser support. E.g. http://www.1500wordmtu.com/ used to just work as a single-user Withknown.com hosted site, but now it redirects to http://www.1500wordmtu.com/profile/lindner. Perhaps related: https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1499
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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plindner will debug this in a little bit...
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Zegnat jeremycherfas, your HWC reply doesn't seem to include RSVP information. Jeena might not put regular replies below the event.
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loqi.me edited /tweetstorm (+231) "tantek added "2017-04-17 [https://twitter.com/chriseppstein/status/854162471665324032 @chriseppstein: I was about to tweet storm so I decided to blog and now I'm like 1000 words in and there's so much more I wanted to say and I hate blogging]" to "Se" (view diff)
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jeremycherfas I’ll just stick my url in there then
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loqi.me created /tweet_storm (+23) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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jeremycherfas !tell Jeena something went wrong trying to put my reply in to your events page for the virtual HWC
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat jeremycherfas did known give you an option for rsvp'ing?
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jeremycherfas I could not see one.
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Zegnat Can you add HTML to your post to manually add the RSVP data?
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tantek I think RSVP may be an option in Known's UI when you do a "reply" ?
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jeremycherfas Tantek: I’ll check, but I don’t think so.
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tantek Known was one of the first to implement both indie events and RSVPs
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tantek so that's odd that it's now disappeared / hard to find
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jeremycherfas is looking
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jeremycherfas Nope, no sign of it.
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sknebel afaik it's in a plugin
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sknebel not sure if the plugins they ship with the core are all enabled by default?
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plindner known/indieauth issue filed as: https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1762
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Loqi [lindner] #1762 An IndieAuth user gets the base domain as their "me" url when logging in
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jeremycherfas Amazing the extent to which wordpress dominates results for “rsvp plugin withknown”
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tantek.com edited /2017/Guest_List (+564) "/* Participant Projects */ add myself, copying from 2016 and 2015 entries" (view diff)
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sknebel jeremycherfas: I think it's in "Events" or something like that (at least that what it's named in the source)
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gRegorLove aaronpk: In return, when you get a chance can you review https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/pulls ? No rush if you're still catching up from Europe.
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Zegnat Hmm, we have a whole wiki page for the Known Events plugin. But no links. https://indieweb.org/Events_plugin
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cweiske my local known installation has an events plugin, shipped by the core
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gRegorLove I think it's a core plugin
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sknebel Zegnat: it shipws with known. just not sure if those need to be enabled explicitly
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Zegnat Ah, alright, I guess it is off by default then if jeremycherfas doesn’t see it
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jeremycherfas OK, so the description of the Events plugin is “A lightweight way to post events.”. I don’t do that. I don’t organise events. If it is needed to reply to other peoples’ events, let’s just say that I find that counter-intuitive.
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jeremycherfas And yes, enabling it gives me a link to RSVP
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tantek weird, SF got dropped somehow from 2017-05-31
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tantek that deserves an FAQ somewhere(s)
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tantek what is RSVP
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Loqi An RSVP is a reply to an event post that says whether the sender is or is not attending, might attend, or is just interested in the event https://indieweb.org/rsvp
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Zegnat That might not so much deserve a FAQ as it deserves to be filed as a bug somewhere
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jeremycherfas Or just the description could be altered.
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tantek or why it's a plugin or not on by default etc.
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Zegnat Yes, but you can file that as a bug on the GitHub repo. The description is here: https://github.com/idno/Known/blob/master/IdnoPlugins/Event/plugin.ini
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Zegnat I think thats an architectural choice, tantek: smaller core, more plugins
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tantek Zegnat: disagree, it raises the barriers for usability (as we've just seen)
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tantek anyone picking architecture over usability is making a mistake
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tantek not saying that is what's happening here with Known in particular, but rather more the general problem (which can be seen with Drupal, and sometimes WordPress too)
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Zegnat Photo posts are apparently also a plugin? Wonder if those are on by default.
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tantek.com edited /rsvp (+292) "add explicit with a tool shortcut at the top and provide one-liners for Known / WordPress" (view diff)
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Zegnat Huh. Seems like cleverdevil came up with an indieweb extension to JSON Feed
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tantek jeremycherfas: I added brief one-liner about Known here: https://indieweb.org/rsvp#How_to_publish let me know if that would have helped you, and feel free to edit / add more detailed steps / specifics to the Known entry to make it clearer
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Zegnat https://github.com/cleverdevil/Known/blob/3fbf4563e40f1d3fa91efbd0e813c29195a57cfc/templates/json/shell.tpl.php#L75
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tantek.com edited /events/2017-05-31-homebrew-website-club (+721) "add SF with MozSF unless benwerd comes back and says he can host at Matter" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2017-05-17-homebrew-website-club (-12) "FB POSSE copy of prev HWC SF" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /jsonfeed (+170) "/* Indieweb Examples */ Make difference between a feed in JSON and a JSON Feed for Known" (view diff)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /2017/Leaders (+181) "/* Discussion Channels */" (view diff)
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martymcgui.re edited /2017/Leaders (+110) "/* Discussion Channels */" (view diff)
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jeremycherfas Zegnat: done https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/1763
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Loqi [jeremycherfas] #1763 Misleading description
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tantek.com edited /rsvp (+35) "/* How to publish */ update WordPress to use RSVP javascript from Wordpress Indieweb bookmarklets" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /authorship (+137) "/* Implementations */ mf2util" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /authorship (-137) "Undo revision 36914 by [[Special:Contributions/Www.svenknebel.de|Www.svenknebel.de]] ([[User talk:Www.svenknebel.de|talk]]) - not complete" (view diff)
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[cleverdevil] Hello, IndieWeb!
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[cleverdevil] Up in the air somewhere over the midwest, heading back to LA from Philly.
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[cleverdevil] Yes, @Zegnat, I did take a crack at the JSON Feed implementation for Known, including an `_indieweb` extension.
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[cleverdevil] That said, I think it'd be better if there was a way to represent post types in the actual standard, with defined metadata.
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[cleverdevil] I also have an open issue on their GitHub about this - https://github.com/brentsimmons/JSONFeed/issues/51 - but it hasn't received any response.\
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Loqi [cleverdevil] #51 Representing alternate post types
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KartikPrabhu why con't one use post-type discovery instead?
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KartikPrabhu https://www.w3.org/TR/2017/WD-post-type-discovery-20170301/
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] Post Type Discovery
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[cleverdevil] One could, but then one would have to load each individual post to do so.
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KartikPrabhu no i mean from the JSONfeed itself
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[cleverdevil] Honestly, if they had just adopted a JSON form of Microformats2, this wouldn't be an issue ?
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KartikPrabhu JSONfeed could have multiple post-types
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[cleverdevil] Yes, that's what I am advocating for.
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KartikPrabhu then, one can use a similar post-type discovery as is done for h-entry
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KartikPrabhu no need for explicit post-types
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[cleverdevil] Sure, but all that's really doing is saving a single property in the JSON ?
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[cleverdevil] You'll still need a standard way to represent the remaining metadata.
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KartikPrabhu one could say the sam about h-feed
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KartikPrabhu what is explicit post type?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "explicit post type" yet. Would you like to create it?
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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KartikPrabhu what is explicit-post-type
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "explicit-post-type" yet. Would you like to create it?
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KartikPrabhu oh well
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[cleverdevil] I am less concerned about it being implicit or explicit.
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KartikPrabhu how does JSONfeed not allow multiple post-types currently?
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[cleverdevil] I am more concerned about getting JSON Feed to adopt/define standard metadata for things like location, reply, RSVP, etc.
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KartikPrabhu oh ok I see
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[cleverdevil] It allows for it, but if you want to embed any of the metadata, you have to use a non-standard extension.
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KartikPrabhu yeah I would reuses h-entry properties :P
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[cleverdevil] In my JSON Feed implementation for my Known site, I have basically done that (though maybe not very well) – https://cleverdevil.io/content/all/?_t=json
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[cleverdevil] I just used an `_indieweb` extension.
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[cleverdevil] And then tossed in things like `in-reply-to`, `repost-of`, `like-of`.
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[cleverdevil] I'm pretty sure I am missing something or got something wrong, but its a decent start.
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KartikPrabhu does JSONfeed not allow for multi-valued properties?
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KartikPrabhu evverything seems to be a string instead of list
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[cleverdevil] https://jsonfeed.org/version/1
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[cleverdevil] (So, pretty much, no.)
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KartikPrabhu ha!
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KartikPrabhu so no, multi-reply, multi-photo
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KartikPrabhu etc...
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KartikPrabhu and if they do add it, it will bascially become h-feed with different property names
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KartikPrabhu oh well!
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[cleverdevil] By the way, feel free to comment on that github issue!
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[cleverdevil] I am by no means an expert on this subject ?
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[cleverdevil] But, I have seen a growing number of feed readers adding support, so I figure its worth riding the momentum, and getting as many IndieWeb fundamentals in there as possible ?
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gRegorLove What's the use-case for adding post-types to JSONFeed?
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gRegorLove feed readers generally render the title and the content, right?
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[cleverdevil] Its more about embedding the metadata (in-reply-to, rsvp, geolocation, etc.)
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[cleverdevil] If a consumer has the metadata, it could for example show you a list of replies, or posts by location, etc.
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gRegorLove Put another way, "Who is the consumer?" I'm unclear on that so far.
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gRegorLove Ah. Hm
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[cleverdevil] I personally find the "one-size fits all" feed reader of today (and yesterday) to be pretty rough from a user experience perspective.
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[cleverdevil] I want to consume photo feeds differently than checkins, differently that microblogs, differently than long-form posts.
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gRegorLove Sounds really difficult if feed readers of the future are going to continue to support XML feeds. Diverging functionality between them and JSONFeed.
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gRegorLove I guess it could downgrade gracefully if only XML feeds exist for a site
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[cleverdevil] Yeah, I think that's fine.
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gRegorLove Trying to spec all the metadata into JSONfeed before consumers exist sounds difficult, too. Not trying to be negative, I promise. Just thinking out loud. :)
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[cleverdevil] Totally get it, and I appreciate the conversation ?
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[cleverdevil] I think that's why JSON Feed initially has kept it out of the spec.
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[cleverdevil] And instead built in extensions.
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gregorlove.com moved /newsblur to /NewsBlur "canonical capitalization"
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gRegorLove Makes sense
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gregorlove.com edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[feedbin]] to [[Feedbin]] over redirect: canonical capitalization" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /News_Explorer (+54) "link dfn" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /jsonfeed (+13) "/* Reader Support */ link wiki pages, announcements as footnote links" (view diff)
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schmarty what if the jsonfeed contained HTML content... which was marked up with mf2...
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[cleverdevil] Which would then need a *second* parse.
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[cleverdevil] The whole reason that they created JSON Feed is that parsing HTML and XML sucks.
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schmarty :}
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gRegorLove schmarty: Yo dawg...
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gRegorLove My impression is they didn't really explore parsing HTML. It's way easier than parsing XML as I think we're showing pretty regularly with our sites.
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gRegorLove What is tools?
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Loqi Here are some tools that are helpful for building and debugging an IndieWeb site https://indieweb.org/tools
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gRegorLove (To the extent that I use /Granary to generate an Atom feed by parsing HTML)
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KartikPrabhu what is granary?
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Loqi granary is a library and REST API that frees you from social network snowflake API and exposes the sweet social data foodstuff inside as HTML and JSON with microformats2, ActivityStreams, Atom, XML, and more https://indieweb.org/granary
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mblaney aaronpk: I rate limit sending webmentions to every five minutes.
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mblaney I wrote a queue that is used by both salmention and post update code paths, if there's anything left in the queue (due to no further update triggers) it gets sent by cron on the hour.
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