#dev 2017-07-18

2017-07-18 UTC
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@hmsaudrazzak What the New Webmention and Annotation W3C Standards Mean for WordPress https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/webmentions-annotations-web-standards/ @wordpress (twitter.com/_/status/887102117365899265)
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@billbennettnz Implementing Webmentions. The idea of capturing all discussions and comments about a post in one place. https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/887107445180452864)
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@WorkingWriter New WPMUDev Post: Webmention and Annotation Standards http://www.michaelmccallister.com/2017/07/new-wpmudev-post-webmention-annotation-standards/ https://twitter.com/WorkingWriter/status/887138031089717248/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/887138031089717248)
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prtksxna aaronpk: https://github.com/w3c/Micropub/pull/98
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Loqi [prtksxna] #98 Fix typo in "Adding a syndication URL"
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@SimpleLocalBiz What the New Webmention and Annotation W3C Standards Mean for WordPress https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/webmentions-annotations-web-standards (twitter.com/_/status/887152775238496256)
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aaronpk Oops thanks
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aaronpk i have yet to see what the process is for updating a REC with typo fixes
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aaronpk i think it's possible if it's actually a typo and not a stylistic change or a functional change
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prtksxna aaronpk: I would hope so
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Ruxton aaronpk: can you yell out here when you update OwnYourGram with the PR change i put through? Just wanna test it works
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aaronpk Yeah probably tomorrow afternoon ish
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Ruxton th
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Ruxton *thx
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@PinPopular Implementing Webmentions https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/887169085762543616)
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[pfefferle] good morning
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Loqi rise and shine!
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cweiske good morning
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@jackysee Implementing Webmentions https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/887235331505799168)
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jeremycherfas !tell zegnat I have solved the local testing of the grav webmention plugin, by specifying the route as /grav-admin/mentions/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jeremycherfas So now to decide whether and how to switch over to use Xray rather than wrestle with the very variable results returned from the native plugin’s use of php-mf2
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Zegnat Where did you end up specifying the route?
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Loqi Zegnat: jeremycherfas left you a message 8 minutes ago: I have solved the local testing of the grav webmention plugin, by specifying the route as /grav-admin/mentions/
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Zegnat XRay has easier to handle output for sure. php-mf2 is just more stuff that you still have to write your own handling code for
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jeremycherfas In webmention.yaml. Easier to add there than work out why the base_url() function wasn’t doing it. Although the answer to that might be to use base_url_absolute
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jeremycherfas “The {{ base_url_absolute }} returns the base URL to the Grav site, including the host information.” from the documentation
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jeremycherfas “The {{ base_url }} returns the base URL to the Grav site, whether or not this shows the full URL is dependent on the absolute_urls option in the system configuration.”
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jeremycherfas Zegnat: Yes, that’s where I began, with wanting the standard simpler output that xray can provide.
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Zegnat Oh, interesting jeremycherfas! So is /grav-admin/ included on base_url_absolute for you?
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Zegnat Oh, no, those shouldn’t make a difference. base_url_absolute will just always include the schema and domain (http://example.org/) while base_url will default to the relative URL unless you turn on absolute urls in your config file :(
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jeremycherfas I didn’t try changing the PHP, because changing the yaml was easier and it worked.
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Zegnat Yeah, should be fine :) Just remember that you should change it back for your live site
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Zegnat You are seeing webmentions coming in now between the offline sites? Then it is time to focus on getting XRay in :D
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jeremycherfas Yes, I am seeing webmentions received from local Known to local Grav. Next I will text send from Grav to Known.
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jeremycherfas Then focus on Xray.
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jeremycherfas Although that will mean tracing back the differences between the current 1.1.0 of the plugin and the version I worked with in Nurnberg with aaron.
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vanderven.se martijn created /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+5680) "Proposal for new /IndieAuth page" (view diff)
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sebastianlasse.de edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+117) "/* Self-Hostable Implementations */" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /RelMeAuth (+2701) "Moved from /IndieAuth" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /IndieAuth () "(-2687) /* Selectively Displaying rel-me Info */ Moved to /RelMyAuth" (view diff)
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@peeke__ Collecting all comments and likes about your articles on external sources in the comment section with WebMentions: https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/887313415139622912)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /indieauth.com (+1756) "Moved from /IndieAuth" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /indieauth.com (+1723) "/* Issues */ More moving" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /IndieAuth () "(-3407) /* Issues */ Moved to /indieauth.com" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+1430) "Few issues that seemed relevant" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (-117) "/* Self-Hostable Implementations */ Removing sl007’s implementation for now, as it isn’t linkable. He can put notes on /token-endpoint though!" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+335) "Start IndieWeb Examples section" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /IndieAuth (-17) "Move form-encoded responses from a FAQ to an issue discussion" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /indieauth.com (+3493) "Moved from /IndieAuth" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /IndieAuth () "(-3594) Move FAQ to /indieauth.com" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /indieauth.com (+927) "Starting a todo section, sorry aaronpk!" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /IndieAuth () "(-914) /* To do */ Shortened to architectural stuff, other things are for /indieauth.com" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh dear
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vanderven.se martijn edited /RelMeAuth (+151) "/* Issues */ RDFa is a possible issue with rel-me parsing" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /IndieAuth (-189) "/* Edge Cases */ Move rel-me problems to RelMeAuth" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /indieauth.com (+60) "/* To do */" (view diff)
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tantek now that I've built an RSVPs facepile embed with wmio and stmbu I'm thinking about a likes facepile
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tantek checks to see if Bridgy is seeing my IG likes
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vanderven.se martijn edited /IndieAuth () "(-701) Rewrite feature request as a possible issue with the protocol." (view diff)
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prtksxna tantek: So I am just copying real world posts as test cases
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tantek prtksxna: over here for Post Type Discovery test cases
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vanderven.se martijn edited /RelMeAuth (+373) "Moved from /IndieAuth as the articles seem to focus on setting up rel-me and consumption thereof." (view diff)
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tantek prtksxna: yes we will need probably one per post type discovered simple cases like that
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vanderven.se martijn edited /IndieAuth (-381) "/* Articles */ Sorry, but none are about IndieAuth-the-protocol :(" (view diff)
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prtksxna nods
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prtksxna tantek: Right, and then the complicated ones, I suppose
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tantek right now one of the big questions I still have is how to treat summary / fallback
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tantek prtksxna: see https://github.com/tantek/post-type-discovery/issues
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tantek prtksxna: in particular https://github.com/tantek/post-type-discovery/issues/25
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Loqi [tantek] #25 Response Type: consider "reply" for 2nd to last for fallback use-cases
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Zegnat I apologise for all the edit links!
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prtksxna tantek: Hm. Do you think going through all the data that snarfed crawled will help us figure out what is more common?
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tantek definitely!
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prtksxna should read the motivation for that spec again
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www.svenknebel.de edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+215) "/* Set up using IndieAuth.com */ explain?" (view diff)
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tantek odd, looks like Bridgy only picked up about 1/3 of the likes from latest IG POSSE copy
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aaronpk hm, trying to think of user-facing services for login / identity
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@clivewalker Quite a few things to figure out with webmentions including how to display them differentlu to regular comments (twitter.com/_/status/887338876146208768)
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aaronpk LastPass, 1Password, Authy (kind of)
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aaronpk others are tied to companies like Facebook Connect, Google Authenticator
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tantek what is login?
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/login
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tantek lol
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aaronpk there are some that are marketed to business/enterprise, which is at least not developer focused: Okta, OneLogin, Plivo
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tantek what is sign-in
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "sign-in" yet. Would you like to create it?
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sebsel tantek re IG likes: Brid.gy only sees the first 10 likes, because those are the only ones Instagram gives users for.
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sebsel There is a total number on their JSON somewhere, but no links to WHO did the liking.
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tantek sebsel oh dear really? so you have to poll for more?
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sebsel No, they never give it
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aaronpk oh that must be because the interface says "a, b, c and n others liked this"
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sebsel I believe Bridgy uses the ?__a=1 method, and there are only 10 likes in that JSON https://www.instagram.com/p/BWrB6YAlnJz/?__a=1
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vanderven.se martijn edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+83) "/* Set up using IndieAuth.com */ How about this." (view diff)
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tantek sebsel are those the 10 most recent or 10 oldest?
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sebsel The oldest, in my experience.
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sebsel Let me check that again
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tantek approximately the first 10
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sebsel they always cap at 10 for me: https://seblog.nl/2017/07/12/14/foto
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Loqi [Sebastiaan Andeweg] Log in home /blog /kort /fotos /tekst /beelden Welkom op Seblog, het weblog van Sebastiaa... https://seblog.nl/thumbs/2017/193/14/phprqymk7-1000x750-blur.jpg
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sebsel wow?
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sebsel adds adding a name to note-less photo's to the todo
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aaronpk haha that happened to me too
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Loqi rofl
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sebsel I was wondering if I wanted to poll Instagram myself for that like-count and display it as "and ".($count-10)." others"
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sebsel seems like the API has an endpoint for it, but I understood it's hard to get a key?
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aaronpk you can get an API key that can access your own account without being approved
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aaronpk but to publish an app that others can use you have to submit it for review
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sebsel Ah, ownyourbridgy.
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vanderven.se martijn moved /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth to /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/WebAuth "rename protocol"
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tantek aaronpk oh? you can get an API key to do your own IG backfeed?!?
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aaronpk i don't know how much more data is accessible that way but you can at least get your own api key to use the real api
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tantek hmm no backfeed section on /Instagram
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tantek bunch of out of date things
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tantek tries to remember when he switched to manual IG POSSE
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@clivewalker Have been able to display a webmention now, yay! https://www.cvwdesign.co.uk/news/2017-07-05-making-it-easy-to-update-your-site (at the bottom of the post) (twitter.com/_/status/887345580565032960)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/WebAuth (-46) "Rename?" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/WebAuth (+169) "/* Set up using IndieAuth.com */ clarify indieauth.com" (view diff)
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@Real_CSS_Tricks Implementing Webmentions :: https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (Allow people to post a response to something you've published with just a URL) (twitter.com/_/status/887348748711583744)
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@Lauren_Hut_SEO Real_CSS_Tricks: Implementing Webmentions :: https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (Allow people to post a response to something you've published with … (twitter.com/_/status/887349193773379584)
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tantek finds his first non-PESOS-IG photo post: http://tantek.com/2017/087/t1/large-south-african-flower
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] a jpg. Seen on Sunday run, large South African flower, SF Botanical Garden. #latergram #seenonmyrun #nofilter #run #GoldenGatePark #trailrun #citytrails #SF #CA #sundayrunday #SFBotanicalGarden #BotanicalGarden #flower https://igx.4sqi.net/img/general/original/476_IYJsviBdonZwJFbnATtw3KiM_-2uoHhZB9JTFRi8zs4.jpg
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tantek what is ownyourgram
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Loqi OwnYourGram.com is a service which streams your Instagram photos to your own site in real-time https://indieweb.org/OwnYourGram
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sebsel Instagram is very annoying. Even with my own sandboxed app I can't access /media/:id/likes
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sebsel it says 200, but does not give a thing.
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sebsel also, /user/self/media/llked is empty, so no PESOS for your own likes either.
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sebsel but /users/self/media/recent works, so I guess they see other people's likes as other peoples property, because they posted it, and your likes also other people's property, because it's their photo.
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snarfed yup. if you're open source/hobbyist, ie not BizDev/Brand, don't expect to be able to use IG's API for much of anything at all any more
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snarfed sad
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snarfed scraping--
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Loqi scraping has -1 karma in this channel (-3 overall)
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snarfed scraping++
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tantek lol
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tantek.com edited /Instagram (+688) "update my IG / photo posting behavior" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Instagram (+270) "stub a backfeed section, needs help" (view diff)
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tantek ok stubbed out: https://indieweb.org/Instagram#backfeed
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tantek sebsel can you add to ^^^ what you observed above?
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sebsel goes to do an IndieAuth
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sebsel https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1550954462/instagramIcon_200x200.png is broken btw.
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seblog.nl edited /Instagram (+3) "new logo" (view diff)
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seblog.nl edited /Instagram (+940) "/* backfeed */ expanding about API and Sandbox" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /IndieAuth (+1034) "/* confusion between IndieAuth(-the-protocol), IndieAuth.com and RelMeAuth */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieAuth (+102) "use short header for nicer fragment links, minor clarifications" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieAuth (+606) "/* naming confusion */ expand" (view diff)
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@johnspurlock "a Facebook emission" https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/887362483979264001)
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@lucasoft_co_uk RT@Real_CSS_Tricks: Implementing Webmentions :: https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (Allow people to post response with just URL) (twitter.com/_/status/887362630381432837)
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@p_ch Implementing Webmentions https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/887366330814541826)
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (-21) "/* Behavior */" (view diff)
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[miklb] huh. If I add Quill to my home screen I can’t authenticate with indieauth, but can in Safari iOS. Doesn’t redirect back to the home screen app.
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aaronpk hm yeah i don't think iOS will work that way
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aaronpk unless there is some iOS trick I don't know about
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aaronpk but there's an "add to home screen" button inside of quill
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aaronpk which adds a shortcut with an autologin token to your home screen
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[miklb] oh.
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aaronpk tho i'm thinking about changing it to not launch a chromeless browser, so that the cookie is shared with main safari
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[miklb] thanks!
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[miklb] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 65 karma in this channel (1381 overall)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /indieauth.com (+0) "/* Contact page support */ link spec instead of library" (view diff)
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@herrseilerbitte </> Implementing Webmentions https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions #frontend #developers #webdesign #webdevelopment #coding #wordpress (twitter.com/_/status/887378908194246658)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /User:Martymcgui.re (+0) "/* What Works */ [[relmeauth]] -> [[RelMeAuth]] link spec instead of php library" (view diff)
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aaronpk I wonder...
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aaronpk what would it take to take selfauth and replace the password function with Google's OAuth API?
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dgold can I ask for a recommendation for automating _sending_ webmentions, preferably php?
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aaronpk Depends on what you mean by automatic, but there is a PHP library for sending webmentions
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dgold i managed to get replies working in my webmention implementation, displaying well as well
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www.svenknebel.de moved /relmeauth to /relmeauth.php "naming overlap with the standard implemented by this library at [[RelMeAuth]]. Links pointing here will be updated /relmeauth will redirect to /RelMeAuth"
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dgold e.g. (well, more exempli gratia solus) http://tinyurl.com/ycone4ku [ https://ascraeus.org/micro/1500374554/ ]
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Loqi replying to a post on unrelenting.technology Nice catch, Greg, thanks! I’d moved some code around when working on bringing micro...
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dgold works on the index page also, and greg's bug-notice meant I caught a mf2 failure
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www.svenknebel.de edited /relmeauth (-4) "adjust redirect to link to spec - library previously living here has been moved to /relmeauth.php" (view diff)
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aaronpk dgold: https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-php
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Loqi [indieweb] mention-client-php: Client library for sending webmention and pingback notifications
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sknebel aaronpk: extending self-auth should be fairly easy still. what for? ;)
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aaronpk google has probably the most secure account protection stuff out of anyone, so i was thinking about making an indieauth authorization endpoint that piggybacks on that
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aaronpk and then realized that selfauth has already done all the indieauth bits in a very good way, so it makes sense to use that
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sknebel it might make sense to try structure selfauth in a way that the actual authentication method can be easily swapped out
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sknebel since you are not the first to ask about things like this ;)
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tantek does Bridgy enable blocking particular twitter profiles from backfeed?
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aaronpk hm bridgy uses your twitter api credentials when fetching posts, right? so if you block something on twitter then it should also affect bridgy
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sknebel tantek: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/473
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Loqi [kylewm] #473 Twitter: do not backfeed from blocked accounts
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loqi.me edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net (+129) "sknebel added "use selfauth instead of custom, DB-based auth endpoint? (with shared secret it'd be easy to generate the correct signed token)" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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glenn.thedixons.net created /User:Glenn.thedixons.net (+66) "Created page with " == Background == == Itches == == Silo Use == == Other =="" (view diff)
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tantek sknebel: thanks. commented https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/473#issuecomment-316164310
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Loqi [tantek] This is currently a blocker (no pun intended) for me implementing showing any kinds of comments (including from Bridgy via Twitter), and likely even reposts/likes (because I'd really like to avoid having a direct link from my site/permalinks, even in...
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@mtrujillodw Retweeted CSS-Tricks (@Real_CSS_Tricks): Implementing Webmentions :: https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (Allow people to... https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/887387220545556484)
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Zegnat That would be interesting to do aaronpk. Because of the 1 file system it isn’t super easy to swap just the password form. The password validation on the otherhand is already a nice separate function that you can swap out.
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sknebel Zegnat: yeah, we'd have to pull more stuff into functions, or at least define a structure we stick to to make it easy to define patches. Or use a class you can derive from to allow overriding parts?
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aaronpk ooh a class to be able to override parts sounds like a good approach?
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dgold aaronpk: webmention-client-php; can I pass an url & content directly through the client, or is it dependent on parsing the outputted html?
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aaronpk a URL to what? your own post
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aaronpk ?
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dgold a reply-to url (frinstance)
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aaronpk it has a bunch of different ways to use it
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aaronpk you're trying to send a webmention from your URL that is in-reply-to something else?
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dgold well, I was looking at implementing the mention-send as part of my post-creation/micropub script
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dgold reminds me, need to actually post about that.
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Webmention (+668) "/* Articles */ WordPress and Perch related articles" (view diff)
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aaronpk dgold: you haven't quite explained enough for me to know if this is the answer you're looking for, but i think the "basic example" will do what you want https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-php#basic-usage
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Loqi [indieweb] mention-client-php: Client library for sending webmention and pingback notifications
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tantek and webmention.io feature request - https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85 - going to need something like that before I can even show a facepile for likes
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Loqi [tantek] #85 Feature request: filter out webmentions from particular domains / sources
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voxpelli tantek: a block list should be possible to create with Micropub, right?
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voxpelli So one can do it from within eg an indie reader, just like one can do in Twitter
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voxpelli Quick thought would be: h-block, p-author=<author-to-block> But that needs dogfooding
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snarfed brainstorm a while back on http://microformats.org/wiki/block-list-brainstorming#simple_container_of_hCards is actually ul.h-blocklist of li.h-cards
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Loqi block-list-brainstorming
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snarfed definitely doable in granary, converting from twitter blocklists. https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40#issuecomment-266310635
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Loqi [snarfed] tentative proposed mf2: `ul.h-blocklist` of `li.h-card`s. based on http://microformats.org/wiki/block-list-brainstorming#simple_container_of_hCards (the `ul` could also have `h-feed`, but that may be redundant, and also the mf2 wiki says it's just ...
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voxpelli snarfed: yeah, noticed that, feels like the blocklist container doesn't work that well though, the block should probably be self-contained
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schmarty what are the consumers of a blocklist microformat?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "consumers of a blocklist microformat" yet. Would you like to create it?
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snarfed is happy to implement whatever mf2 people settle on
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snarfed schmarty: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/473 (and related https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85 )
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Loqi [kylewm] #473 Twitter: do not backfeed from blocked accounts
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voxpelli schmarty: webmentions endpoints and indie readers are likely consumers
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schmarty snarfed: since bridgy is already using twitter APIs I would assume the quickest way to check if a twitter user is blocked is to keep using those twitter APIs?
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snarfed schmarty: yes. lots of detailed discussion on that in the issues. :P https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/473 and https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40
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Loqi [kylewm] #473 Twitter: do not backfeed from blocked accounts
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voxpelli snarfed: I wonder if Bridgy could make Micropub requests to sync a block list to an indie site?
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snarfed voxpelli: probably out of scope for bridgy, but something definitely could!
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voxpelli should stop coming up with ideas now and reread the issues before continuing
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schmarty goes off to read
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voxpelli realizes the time is late in Europe and postpones to another day
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voxpelli First step for my webmention endpoint would be to start doing indieauth anyway, so dogfooding is past that in the future
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tantek I think minimum viable blocking for Bridgy should be to "just" automatically filter out anything that the user has blocked on the silo. that should "just work" without any reconfiguration, and I think that's what issue 473 is about but I'm not sure from having read it (discussion is much broader)
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tantek that requires ZERO new formats etc.
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tantek then there is minimum viable response deleting which is a bit different, and probably something webmention proxies need to implement (not Bridgy)
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snarfed tantek: right, i think that's the big remaining todo
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tantek this is the plumbing/service equivalent of when you (as an author of a post) delete comments on your post
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tantek comments by *others*
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snarfed right. and only applies when you use an external wm service like wm.io
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tantek though generalized to *any* kind of response
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tantek or wm heroku
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tantek looks for specific issues
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snarfed bridgy backfeed filtering should already be happening now, since blocked users on twitter can't interact with your tweets, right?
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tantek they can still @-mention you
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tantek only on FB can they not @-mention you AFAIK
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tantek or rather, on FB if you block someone, they cannot @-mention you
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snarfed right, that's the one remaining thing. but supporting homepage webmentions is very rare, so i think we can deprioritize that part of block filtering a bit
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snarfed tantek: e.g. i assume you'll implement rendering responses on posts way before on your homepage, right?
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tantek "very rare" ?
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snarfed so https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85 is maybe the one big todo
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Loqi [tantek] #85 Feature request: filter out webmentions from particular domains / sources
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tantek snarfed, short of implementing auto-twitter-block-list-blocking, then yes, #85 is needed
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snarfed just to check, auto-twitter-block-list-blocking would also be in wm.io, right? since bridgy can't claw back wms retroactively
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tantek it's pretty clear we have a lot of work to do to get blocking working in any reasonable way in the indieweb ecosystem
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snarfed yup
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tantek and I'm happy to be the canary in the coalmine for this
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tantek if we want anyone other than highly privileged classes of folks using indieweb tools / ecosystem / techniques (POSSE & backfeed), we MUST solve block etc.
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snarfed maybe my one big contribution right now would be to implement https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40 so that wm.io can consume and use mf2 blocklists for its filtering
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Loqi [snarfed] #40 support block lists
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aaronpk interesting
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tantek snarfed, I think explicit block lists may be a distraction frankly
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snarfed is listening
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tantek because it's yet more maintenance for the user
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aaronpk ...there has to be a list of accounts blocked in order for webmention.io to block things
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voxpelli made a note on #40 on thoughts on block format
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tantek aaronpk, for there to be a list, there must be a UI for maintaining that list
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tantek and no one has even prototyped that yet
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tantek therefore any talk of format is frankly premature :P
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aaronpk twitter has
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tantek no indieweb site
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tantek the twitter use-case should be handled automatically by bridgy backfeed without *any* need for an explicitly published list anywhere
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voxpelli I can agree with Tantek here, dogfooding blocking with only data from Twitter to dog food with doesn't result in any good dogfooding
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aaronpk yeah there's definitely something bridgy can do without any new format or trying to share any of these block lists
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aaronpk stays out of this discussion until it becomes relevant to webmention.io
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snarfed ...just to confirm, do we all agree that bridgy backfeed already seems to handle twitter block lists, *except* @-mentions, which are maybe not top priority since homepage wm support is so rare...right?
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tantek snarfed, https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85 is a workaround until Bridgy backfeed can auto-block-twitter-blocked-users
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Loqi [tantek] #85 Feature request: filter out webmentions from particular domains / sources
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tantek aaropnk, wm.io needs to implement persistent webmention delete
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tantek I'll open a separate issue on that
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aaronpk has anyone actually confirmed that bridgy doesn't send webmentions from blocked accounts? I assume that would be the case if the twitter API works like I expect, but not totally sure
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voxpelli needs to finish full deletes as well
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tantek voxpelli: is there a wm heroku issue on that?
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snarfed aaronpk: yup that'd be great to confirm
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voxpelli tantek: Bridgy probably won't delete tweets from before you block someone, does wm.io provide a moderating UI?
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snarfed tantek: by auto-block-twitter-blocked-users, you mean just @-mentions, right?
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snarfed voxpelli: https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85
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Loqi [tantek] #85 Feature request: filter out webmentions from particular domains / sources
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tantek snarfed, no, history too
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tantek Flickr style
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aaronpk what?
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snarfed i don't understand then
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tantek wonders if that's to obscure of a reference
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aaronpk bridgy doesn't store webmentions tho
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tantek apparently
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aaronpk ...
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snarfed how can bridgy claw back wms that have already been sent?
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voxpelli tantek: yes, issue for full CRUD here: https://github.com/voxpelli/webpage-webmentions/issues/5
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Loqi [voxpelli] #5 Support all CRUD operations
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tantek aaronpk: yes it does, it has permalinks for all of them
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tantek is very tempted to define claw back
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aaronpk ohhh
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aaronpk bridgy could 410 those URLs and then send webmention updates
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tantek precisely
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aaronpk to delete all the webmentions when you block an account
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snarfed wow. that's really what you're proposing?!?
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aaronpk lol
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tantek that is what Flickr does
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snarfed ok. i understand, and it's technically possible, but realistically i highly doubt i'd ever implement that
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snarfed i understand flickr may do it, but they own the storage, which makes it way easier
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tantek snarfed, Bridgy owns the storage of Bridgy permalinks
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aaronpk yeah saying flickr does that is not quite fair
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snarfed yes. again, i understand, and it's doable, but very unlikely that i'll actually implement it
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tantek and I'm saying it is going to be (is) a user expectation of how block works
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aaronpk any time you try to recreate a silo feature in a distributed context it's going to be much harder, so it's not fair to say "silo X does this, so it should be easy for indieweb site/app Y"
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snarfed feel free to file the feature request though! since i don't think it's included in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/473 's scope
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Loqi [kylewm] #473 Twitter: do not backfeed from blocked accounts
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tantek aaronpk, wrong analogy. we're talking centralized (Twitter) to centralized service (Bridgy) here
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aaronpk bridgy is still an indieweb app
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tantek distributed doesn't enter into it
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aaronpk federating with indieweb sites
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Zegnat snarfed, do you currently keep webmention permalinks in storage for ever?
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tantek I didn't say it was easy
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snarfed Zegnat: yes
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voxpelli It would be very interesting if two users with lots of history have one block the other :/
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aaronpk attempts to test bridgy blocked accounts
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tantek on Flickr, you can block someone to remove *all* their responses/interactions from your photos
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voxpelli With block list at receiver it would be no issue, with block list at sender it could result in thousands of pings from a single block
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snarfed yeah. silo backfeed is already clearly incomplete and lower fidelity in a number of ways. given that, i'm not entirely convinced that users will expect every action inside a silo to seamlessly work and propagage correctly into their site.
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aaronpk yeah i think i'm more likely to implement blocking at the receiver end. i see why snarfed has no interest in implementing that in bridgy
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aaronpk webmention.io being one of the receivers. so if i can get the information that someone blocked an account, I'd happily wriite something that deletes all the webmentions from the database
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tantek snarfed, I'm not talking about "users will expect every action inside a silo to seamlessly work and propagage correctly", I'm talking about users will experience pain (abuse) and want it to go away as quickly / easily as possible
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tantek and one of those is abusive responses showing up on their own site via Bridgy
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voxpelli aaronpk: or probably rather just marks it as ignored, as a block can always be unblocked
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aaronpk voxpelli: yeah true
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tantek since we know Twitter is a cesspool of abuse, this is inevitable
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aaronpk blocks one of his own accounts and hopes this doesn't trigger something bad
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snarfed tantek: understood! it's definitely a noble goal. it's just also a substantial project, and requires bridgy to scale on at least a couple dimensions that it doesn't now.
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tantek I expect, to everyone, but certainly to less privileged individuals first
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tantek snarfed, in that case, it may be worth setting those expectations up front
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snarfed honestly i'd like to see the native indie version of this retroactive block behavior diagrammed out and prototyped in at least one CMS first
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Zegnat If snarfed has a webmention page that mentions multiple people he can’t 410 it just because one of the people has the sender blocked though.
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aaronpk also that requires that webmention receivers know how to interpret the http 410 and can handle a sudden flood of incoming webmentions lol
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Zegnat So removal might be impossible.
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Zegnat just realised
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aaronpk Zegnat: i thought the bridgy URLs were scoped to the account that's receiving the webmention
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snarfed hah good point Zegnat. i suspect very few CMSes support 410 webmentions. maaaybe known? any others?
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tantek snarfed, may be good to have Bridgy have a warning about abuse / blocking from silos
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tantek *before* people connect their backfeed from a silo to their personal site webmention receiving
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tantek since it's not something easily undoable
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aaronpk types a reply on twitter for the first time in... years? and is horrified by the inability to remove people from the reply chain
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sknebel (aaronpk Zegnat https://github.com/Inklings-io/selfauth/issues/25 issue for extending selfauth)
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Loqi [sknebel] #25 allow using other auth methods
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tantek and then that makes the persistent-delete-webmention more important
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snarfed tantek: sure! in practice, i expect that surprise doesn't really happen now (yet), since almost no one supports homepage wms...but still, understood
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jjuran aaronpk: You can remove people, but you have to click on a thing to do it.
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voxpelli snarfed: retroactive block by 410 would only be a solution for solo -> indie, not for indie -> indie
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Zegnat aaronpk: a homepage mention from a tweet “Hi @aaronpk @t love you guys” I would expect to get 1 page on bridgey but mention both? Not sure how much support Bridgy has for that
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aaronpk Zegnat: i think bridgy creates two URLs for that? (correct me if i'm wrong)
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snarfed yup. native indie blocking is either entirely inside the receiving CMS, or btw CMS and wm.io (etc)
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snarfed aaronpk: yup two urls
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Zegnat Yeah, not sure, I was mostly thinking outloud, aaronpk. Hoped snarfed could confirm ;)
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Zegnat Aah, interesting mechanic then, snarfed
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tantek snarfed, more worried about permalink backfeed abuse
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tantek which is where it is happening on Twitter now
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snarfed oh interesting ok. got an example?
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tantek and often a whole load of it quickly
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aaronpk i think it'd be reasonable for bridgy to 410 those URLs, but I don't think it's necessary for bridgy to also send webmentions for that
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tantek before the targeted user can block all the abusers
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tantek then all those backfeed wms make it to their personal site
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tantek which feels major ick
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tantek at a minimum we have to make cleaning that up easy
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voxpelli aaronpk: if it 410:s with no ping, then what impact will it have?
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tantek hence we need simple/fast UIs for persistent-delete-webmention
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aaronpk voxpelli: at least someone else couldn't send a webmention for it
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aaronpk like my script just did
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snarfed btw aaronpk i'm happy to talk/work more on https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85#issuecomment-316174786 if/when you're interested
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Loqi [snarfed] hey @aaronpk, would you consider consuming mf2 blocklists as a way to implement this filtering? if so, i'm happy to prioritize snarfed/granary#40.
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aaronpk :sigh: i sent a webmention for the blocked post from the bridgy URL thanks to my twitter search script
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aaronpk deleted that, trying to trigger brigdy poll now
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voxpelli snarfed: aaronpk: keep me in the loop if you work on any of that, would very much want to get something like that working before KevinMarks mentions GamerGate or something again :)
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tantek voxpelli: interesting question, perhaps there's another way to trigger this
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aaronpk i think bridgy is sending the webmention anyway
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tantek considers delete as a response
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aaronpk it found the tweet even though it's from a blocked account
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aaronpk yep, confirmed bridgy does in fact send webmentions even if i've blocked the account
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snarfed i wonder if twitter api search doesn't filter by the auth user's blocklist
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snarfed probably not
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snarfed whee
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aaronpk sounds like it
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aaronpk fun
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aaronpk i was hoping it would
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tantek waits for aaronpk,snarfed,voxpelli to consider the implications of "delete as a response"
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voxpelli tantek: As a response? As an activity has been discussed in https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40 at least :)
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Loqi [snarfed] #40 support block lists
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tantek voxpelli: block != delete
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tantek they are different
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tantek a block UI action may cause deletes (per Flickr implementation)
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aaronpk delete as a response ... from? to?
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aaronpk i don't get it
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tantek but they are very different semantics
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tantek aaronpk, ever deleted a comment someone made on an Instagram post of yours?
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek well, in that scenario, who is the author of the delete?
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voxpelli I don't think it's a delete as much as an ignore
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aaronpk eh, i'm not sure i'd say i created anything by doing that
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tantek aaronpk: in short, you are the author of the delete, and your delete is a response to the comment you are deleting on your post.
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Zegnat I’d say that is literally deleting the local copy of the comment. I wouldn’t see that as a response per se.
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tantek Zegnat: "local copy" is something you can't conclude from that because that's a plumbing detail
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aaronpk also if i'm deleting a comment, i probably don't want to keep anything around that shows i deleted it
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voxpelli (And actually, our "block" is probably more a "mute" than a "block" in the Twitter sense as a "block" is to stop others from reading your stuff)
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tantek and certainly ambiguous on silo vs federated
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tantek voxpelli: absolutely not. we have /block and /mute as very distinct
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Zegnat So what would a delete response say tantek? “I received your comment, then I removed it from displaying on my end”?
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tantek there is no "our 'block'" unless you can point to someone's implementation
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voxpelli But in the Twitter sense, we never block anyone from reading our stuff? Or should a block list also apply to eg a webmention sender?
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tantek Zegnat, there's the webmention a delete response would send, and there's what would a delete response look like in markup.
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tantek voxpelli: Twitter is a poor implementer of block, bad to use that as example
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Zegnat no, that is plumbing, as you always say, tantek ;) What would you mean by that response?
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tantek Zegnat, you asked a plumbing question
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tantek "what would a delete response say "
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:twitter-block-list-import.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:twitter-block-list-import.png"
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tantek first things first, I need to file the persistent-delete-webmention feature requests of proxies
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voxpelli I don't like the idea of a delete response, but it so is interesting how a block would interact with Salmentions *runs and hides*
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aaronparecki.com edited /block (+148) "/* Twitter */ add screenshot of twitter block import interface" (view diff)
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tantek hah
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Zegnat No. What are you trying to tell the recipient with that, was what I meant. A webmention from an in-reply-to would say “I replied to you on this page”. So what would a delete response say?
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Zegnat Trying to figure out intent, not plumbing.
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tantek "Your response was deleted by the author of the post"
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aaronpk i'm just going to say again that I don't want to create a permalink when I delete a reply
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aaronpk if i delete something from my site, i don't want to leave a trace that i deleted it
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tantek then a site like Bridgy, when it receives one of those, could actually 410 its synthetic backfeed webmention permalink!
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Zegnat It would be interesting to receive a webmention telling me my response was deleted. Not sure what I would do with that.
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tantek aaronpk: what happens when you receive the webmention again? and it shows up again?
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aaronpk that's a plumbing detail
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tantek you going to just keep deleting it in the UI whackamole style?
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aaronpk internally i can keep a record that i deleted it
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aaronpk and not show it again
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tantek so you *are* keeping a trace
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aaronpk not anywhere visible
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tantek visible to you
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aaronpk i was speaking from a UI perspective :)
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aaronpk no not visible to me
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aaronpk internally, not visible
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voxpelli wonders if a block should retroactively apply to all Salmentions sent and thus trigger Salmention pings for all affected pages
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Zegnat voxpelli, wow, that would be pretty horrible for almost everyone involved xD
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tantek likely, let's try to get the simple scenario working
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glenn.thedixons.net edited /User:Glenn.thedixons.net (+143) (view diff)
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voxpelli has to leave discussions for today, need sleep before work tomorrow
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Zegnat Have a good night voxpelli!
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aaronpk if you block an account in webmention.io, should it continue to process and store future webmentions from that account in case you unblock the account later?
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aaronpk or should blocking the account make it ignore future webmentions from that account?
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aaronpk and if you unblock it later you don't suddenly see a bunch of new webmentions
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aaronpk hm yes that is more sensible
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aaronpk seems less surprising
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tantek ok persistent delete issues filed
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tantek https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/86 and https://github.com/voxpelli/webpage-webmentions/issues/40
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Loqi [tantek] #86 Feature: persistent webmention delete
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aaronpk wrote up how i plan to implement this: https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85#issuecomment-316184955
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Loqi [aaronpk] Step one for me in webmention.io would be adding a way to have block lists internally at all. I'd start by implementing a minimal UI for managing which things are blocked, similar to how this works on Twitter. Then I could definitely see syncing that...
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@webnauts What the New Webmention and Annotation W3C Standards Mean for WordPress - https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/webmentions-annotations-web-standards/ (twitter.com/_/status/887406536615616512)
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aaronpk needs to do some cleanup on webmention.io before he starts adding new features
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tantek there's a big difference between deleting things with permalinks (and ignoring future webmentions from them), and ignoring *everything* from a particular domain/source/author
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tantek the latter is much harder I would expect
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aaronpk ? on #86
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tantek I'm really trying hard to minimize these features down to what would be actually useful right now
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tantek instead of trying to solve all the problems
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tantek here's why a delete response makes sense
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tantek on my site, visually when I see something abusive (like a bad/garbage comment), I would have a close box / trashcan etc. UI to delete that abusive response
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tantek then upon clicking that, my site would generate a capability URL that doesn't show up anywhere else, that has a delete response in-reply-to (or delete-of?) the permalink of the abusive response I'm deleting
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tantek and then it would send a webmention to where I got the abusive response from, e.g. Bridgy backfeed
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tantek Bridgy upon receiving it, could/would realize hey I got a delete response from the original post, I should remove / 410 my copy of the backfeed
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tantek this is basically an alternative to moderation, wherein people have to approve every comment
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aaronpk does this still make sense to send to other indieweb sites?
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tantek As much as /edit posts do!
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tantek the receiver can decide what to do wit
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tantek *with it
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tantek I wouldn't send it to someone I've blocked obviously
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aaronpk sounds worth writing up somewhere
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tantek yeah, figured I'd start with braindump in chat
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tantek because we're going to need UI for deleting individual responses
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tantek this is what I'm *actually* running into while trying to implement showing responses to my own posts
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tantek even just a facepile of likes
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aaronpk i have a bunch of responses i'd like to delete too
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tantek I want to remove some of them (from spam/bot/pr0n accounts)
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aaronpk hm also i have some responses i want to re-parse
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aaronpk since i've improved my comment handling since originally receiving the comment
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tantek use-case: a family member is reading my public post, sees the facepile of people liking it, sees an "interesting" avatar/icon in the facepile, clicks it, and sees a BUNCH of ugly things
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tantek I'd really like to avoid that
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tantek then getting the "phone" call of - I clicked this thing on your post and saw somethings very nasty - why did you link to it from your post?!?
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aaronpk haha yeah
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Loqi hehe
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tantek I'm just going to say point blank that this is *essential* to go beyond gen 1/2
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Zegnat Also note that in some countries you might be responsible for what you link to. I believe Germany has something weird about that. Though for those countries I would just advise moderation queues.
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tantek or maybe even to go beyond just gen 1
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tantek Zegnat or even what images you show
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tantek imagine an avatar/icon of something banned in Germany for example
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tantek example of a nonsense reply to my most recent POSSE tweet: https://twitter.com/blueto67andy/status/887279851761274880
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@blueto67andy @t @Nov_Project_SF clergyxjsesezxtc (twitter.com/_/status/887279851761274880)
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aaronpk warning that account is nsfw
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tantek ugh I forgot Loqi links to that darnit
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tantek sorry :(
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tantek (the account that is. the permalink is fine, which is all I intended.)
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aaronpk am i gonna have to implement blocklists on the IRC logs?
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tantek you mean again?
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aaronpk no like in the autolinker
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tantek oh for historical
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tantek not just
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tantek !block @ blueto67andy
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aaronpk right
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tantek (deliberate space to avoid linking)
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tantek well that text "UI" would be one way of doing it
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tantek takes it to meta
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Zegnat Such example links might be better to just remember to put in chat. If you *must* share them. Or share them by another temp page, e.g. I have shared a FB page I did not want to have the URL logged from by putting the URL on my wiki and then giving the URL to my wiki.
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aaronpk ?
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tantek good workaround for now
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snarfed FB Graph API v2.10 is out. no big indieweb-relevant changes imho. https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2017/07/18/graph-api-v2.10/
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aaronpk *whew*
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snarfed also fwiw re supporting silo block lists in bridgy: of the five silos bridgy backfeeds, *only twitter* exposes users' block lists via API. details in https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40
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Loqi [snarfed] #40 support block lists
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aaronpk fun
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tantek Flickr does I believe
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snarfed so users can expect bridgy to seamlessly support their silo block lists, but realistically it still won't for the majority of silos
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snarfed tantek: i couldn't find it when i searched their API docs in 9/2015. details and links in that issue. i'd love to find out it does though!
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snarfed on the plus side, unlike twitter, the other silos' APIs are all sane and let me get a post's comments directly, so there's a good chance they filter by block lists themselves
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tantek indeed
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tantek snarfed, huh, odd about that in the API - I'll hunt a bit. thought for sure it was there - since it's so well exposed in their UI around contacts
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snarfed yeah UI sometimes but definitely not always implies API
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tantek agreed. though knowing a bit about how they built Flickr, that's why I'm surprised.
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tantek I bet it's there and "just" a documentation issue
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snarfed pls do post on the issue if you find that's true!
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tantek no luck snarfed, I can't find it after some digging. odd.
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snarfed thanks for trying
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tantek closest I got was contacts in general: https://www.flickr.com/services/api/explore/flickr.contacts.getList
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tantek tries a few filter values
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tantek no variant of "block" or "ignore" worked. oh well.
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tantek (where you would otherwise specify "friends" or "family")
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamps (+193) "/* How to organize */ packing - link to kit" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamp_kit (+47) "link to how to organize" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /Planning (+69) "tantek added "* [[IndieWebCamps#How_to_organize|IndieWebCamps: How to organize]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /IndieWebCamps (+15) "tantek added "[[Planning]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieWebCamp_kit (+87) "or Staples" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieWebCamp_kit (+27) "/* See Also */" (view diff)