#dev 2017-07-18

2017-07-18 UTC
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@billbennettnz
Implementing Webmentions. The idea of capturing all discussions and comments about a post in one place. https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions
(twtr.io/1U1bXFnsU14)
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Loqi
[prtksxna] #98 Fix typo in "Adding a syndication URL"
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@SimpleLocalBiz
What the New Webmention and Annotation W3C Standards Mean for WordPress https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/webmentions-annotations-web-standards
(twtr.io/1U1shqcYHqw)
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aaronpk
Oops thanks
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aaronpk
i have yet to see what the process is for updating a REC with typo fixes
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aaronpk
i think it's possible if it's actually a typo and not a stylistic change or a functional change
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prtksxna
aaronpk: I would hope so
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Ruxton
aaronpk: can you yell out here when you update OwnYourGram with the PR change i put through? Just wanna test it works
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aaronpk
Yeah probably tomorrow afternoon ish
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[pfefferle]
good morning
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Loqi
rise and shine!
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cweiske
good morning
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jeremycherfas
!tell zegnat I have solved the local testing of the grav webmention plugin, by specifying the route as /grav-admin/mentions/
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jeremycherfas
So now to decide whether and how to switch over to use Xray rather than wrestle with the very variable results returned from the native plugin’s use of php-mf2
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Zegnat
Where did you end up specifying the route?
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Loqi
Zegnat: jeremycherfas left you a message 8 minutes ago: I have solved the local testing of the grav webmention plugin, by specifying the route as /grav-admin/mentions/
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Zegnat
XRay has easier to handle output for sure. php-mf2 is just more stuff that you still have to write your own handling code for
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jeremycherfas
In webmention.yaml. Easier to add there than work out why the base_url() function wasn’t doing it. Although the answer to that might be to use base_url_absolute
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jeremycherfas
“The {{ base_url_absolute }} returns the base URL to the Grav site, including the host information.” from the documentation
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jeremycherfas
“The {{ base_url }} returns the base URL to the Grav site, whether or not this shows the full URL is dependent on the absolute_urls option in the system configuration.”
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jeremycherfas
Zegnat: Yes, that’s where I began, with wanting the standard simpler output that xray can provide.
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Zegnat
Oh, interesting jeremycherfas! So is /grav-admin/ included on base_url_absolute for you?
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Zegnat
Oh, no, those shouldn’t make a difference. base_url_absolute will just always include the schema and domain (http://example.org/) while base_url will default to the relative URL unless you turn on absolute urls in your config file :(
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jeremycherfas
I didn’t try changing the PHP, because changing the yaml was easier and it worked.
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Zegnat
Yeah, should be fine :) Just remember that you should change it back for your live site
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Zegnat
You are seeing webmentions coming in now between the offline sites? Then it is time to focus on getting XRay in :D
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jeremycherfas
Yes, I am seeing webmentions received from local Known to local Grav. Next I will text send from Grav to Known.
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jeremycherfas
Then focus on Xray.
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jeremycherfas
Although that will mean tracing back the differences between the current 1.1.0 of the plugin and the version I worked with in Nurnberg with aaron.
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sebastianlasse.de
edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+117) "/* Self-Hostable Implementations */"
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /IndieAuth () "(-2687) /* Selectively Displaying rel-me Info */ Moved to /RelMyAuth"
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@peeke__
Collecting all comments and likes about your articles on external sources in the comment section with WebMentions: https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions
(twtr.io/1U2q5urdFFC)
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /indieauth.com (+1723) "/* Issues */ More moving"
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /IndieAuth () "(-3407) /* Issues */ Moved to /indieauth.com"
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+1430) "Few issues that seemed relevant"
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (-117) "/* Self-Hostable Implementations */ Removing sl007’s implementation for now, as it isn’t linkable. He can put notes on /token-endpoint though!"
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+335) "Start IndieWeb Examples section"
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /IndieAuth (-17) "Move form-encoded responses from a FAQ to an issue discussion"
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /IndieAuth () "(-3594) Move FAQ to /indieauth.com"
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /indieauth.com (+927) "Starting a todo section, sorry aaronpk!"
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /IndieAuth () "(-914) /* To do */ Shortened to architectural stuff, other things are for /indieauth.com"
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aaronpk
oh dear
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /RelMeAuth (+151) "/* Issues */ RDFa is a possible issue with rel-me parsing"
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /IndieAuth (-189) "/* Edge Cases */ Move rel-me problems to RelMeAuth"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /indieauth.com (+60) "/* To do */"
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tantek
now that I've built an RSVPs facepile embed with wmio and stmbu I'm thinking about a likes facepile
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tantek
checks to see if Bridgy is seeing my IG likes
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /IndieAuth () "(-701) Rewrite feature request as a possible issue with the protocol."
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prtksxna
tantek: So I am just copying real world posts as test cases
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tantek
prtksxna: over here for Post Type Discovery test cases
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /RelMeAuth (+373) "Moved from /IndieAuth as the articles seem to focus on setting up rel-me and consumption thereof."
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tantek
prtksxna: yes we will need probably one per post type discovered simple cases like that
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /IndieAuth (-381) "/* Articles */ Sorry, but none are about IndieAuth-the-protocol :("
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prtksxna
tantek: Right, and then the complicated ones, I suppose
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tantek
right now one of the big questions I still have is how to treat summary / fallback
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Loqi
[tantek] #25 Response Type: consider "reply" for 2nd to last for fallback use-cases
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Zegnat
I apologise for all the edit links!
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prtksxna
tantek: Hm. Do you think going through all the data that snarfed crawled will help us figure out what is more common?
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tantek
definitely!
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prtksxna
should read the motivation for that spec again
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+215) "/* Set up using IndieAuth.com */ explain?"
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tantek
odd, looks like Bridgy only picked up about 1/3 of the likes from latest IG POSSE copy
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aaronpk
hm, trying to think of user-facing services for login / identity
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@clivewalker
Quite a few things to figure out with webmentions including how to display them differentlu to regular comments
(twtr.io/1U2zBcvUjeU)
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aaronpk
LastPass, 1Password, Authy (kind of)
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aaronpk
others are tied to companies like Facebook Connect, Google Authenticator
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tantek
what is login?
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aaronpk
there are some that are marketed to business/enterprise, which is at least not developer focused: Okta, OneLogin, Plivo
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tantek
what is sign-in
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "sign-in" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10pA
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sebsel
tantek re IG likes: Brid.gy only sees the first 10 likes, because those are the only ones Instagram gives users for.
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sebsel
There is a total number on their JSON somewhere, but no links to WHO did the liking.
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tantek
sebsel oh dear really? so you have to poll for more?
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sebsel
No, they never give it
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aaronpk
oh that must be because the interface says "a, b, c and n others liked this"
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sebsel
I believe Bridgy uses the ?__a=1 method, and there are only 10 likes in that JSON https://www.instagram.com/p/BWrB6YAlnJz/?__a=1
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vanderven.se martijn
edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/IndieAuth (+83) "/* Set up using IndieAuth.com */ How about this."
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tantek
sebsel are those the 10 most recent or 10 oldest?
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sebsel
The oldest, in my experience.
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sebsel
Let me check that again
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tantek
approximately the first 10
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sebsel
they always cap at 10 for me: https://seblog.nl/2017/07/12/14/foto
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sebsel
adds adding a name to note-less photo's to the todo
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aaronpk
haha that happened to me too
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Loqi
rofl
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sebsel
I was wondering if I wanted to poll Instagram myself for that like-count and display it as "and ".($count-10)." others"
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sebsel
seems like the API has an endpoint for it, but I understood it's hard to get a key?
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aaronpk
you can get an API key that can access your own account without being approved
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aaronpk
but to publish an app that others can use you have to submit it for review
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sebsel
Ah, ownyourbridgy.
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tantek
aaronpk oh? you can get an API key to do your own IG backfeed?!?
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aaronpk
i don't know how much more data is accessible that way but you can at least get your own api key to use the real api
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tantek
hmm no backfeed section on /Instagram
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tantek
bunch of out of date things
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tantek
tries to remember when he switched to manual IG POSSE
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@clivewalker
Have been able to display a webmention now, yay! https://www.cvwdesign.co.uk/news/2017-07-05-making-it-easy-to-update-your-site (at the bottom of the post)
(twtr.io/1U31aKrjmw0)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/WebAuth (+169) "/* Set up using IndieAuth.com */ clarify indieauth.com"
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@Real_CSS_Tricks
Implementing Webmentions :: https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (Allow people to post a response to something you've published with just a URL)
(twtr.io/1U32iE7VvV4)
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@Lauren_Hut_SEO
Real_CSS_Tricks: Implementing Webmentions :: https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (Allow people to post a response to something you've published with …
(twtr.io/1U32smUgC6Q)
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Loqi
[Tantek Çelik] a jpg. Seen on Sunday run, large South African flower, SF Botanical Garden. #latergram #seenonmyrun #nofilter #run #GoldenGatePark #trailrun #citytrails #SF #CA #sundayrunday #SFBotanicalGarden #BotanicalGarden #flower https://igx.4sqi.net/img/general/original/476_IYJsviBdonZwJFbnATtw3KiM_-2uoHhZB9JTFRi8zs4.jpg
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tantek
what is ownyourgram
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Loqi
OwnYourGram.com is a service which streams your Instagram photos to your own site in real-time https://indieweb.org/OwnYourGram
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sebsel
Instagram is very annoying. Even with my own sandboxed app I can't access /media/:id/likes
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sebsel
it says 200, but does not give a thing.
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sebsel
also, /user/self/media/llked is empty, so no PESOS for your own likes either.
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sebsel
but /users/self/media/recent works, so I guess they see other people's likes as other peoples property, because they posted it, and your likes also other people's property, because it's their photo.
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snarfed
yup. if you're open source/hobbyist, ie not BizDev/Brand, don't expect to be able to use IG's API for much of anything at all any more
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snarfed
scraping--
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Loqi
scraping has -1 karma in this channel (-3 overall)
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snarfed
scraping++
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tantek.com
edited /Instagram (+688) "update my IG / photo posting behavior"
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tantek.com
edited /Instagram (+270) "stub a backfeed section, needs help"
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tantek
sebsel can you add to ^^^ what you observed above?
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sebsel
goes to do an IndieAuth
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seblog.nl
edited /Instagram (+3) "new logo"
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seblog.nl
edited /Instagram (+940) "/* backfeed */ expanding about API and Sandbox"
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /IndieAuth (+1034) "/* confusion between IndieAuth(-the-protocol), IndieAuth.com and RelMeAuth */"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /IndieAuth (+102) "use short header for nicer fragment links, minor clarifications"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /IndieAuth (+606) "/* naming confusion */ expand"
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@lucasoft_co_uk
RT@Real_CSS_Tricks: Implementing Webmentions :: https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (Allow people to post response with just URL)
(twtr.io/1U37fm3zy0c)
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kevinmarks.com
edited /fragmention (-21) "/* Behavior */"
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[miklb]
huh. If I add Quill to my home screen I can’t authenticate with indieauth, but can in Safari iOS. Doesn’t redirect back to the home screen app.
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aaronpk
hm yeah i don't think iOS will work that way
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aaronpk
unless there is some iOS trick I don't know about
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aaronpk
but there's an "add to home screen" button inside of quill
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aaronpk
which adds a shortcut with an autologin token to your home screen
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aaronpk
tho i'm thinking about changing it to not launch a chromeless browser, so that the cookie is shared with main safari
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[miklb]
thanks!
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[miklb]
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 65 karma in this channel (1381 overall)
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /indieauth.com (+0) "/* Contact page support */ link spec instead of library"
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@herrseilerbitte
</> Implementing Webmentions https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions #frontend #developers #webdesign #webdevelopment #coding #wordpress
(twtr.io/1U3DVeU4UWy)
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /User:Martymcgui.re (+0) "/* What Works */ [[relmeauth]] -> [[RelMeAuth]] link spec instead of php library"
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aaronpk
I wonder...
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aaronpk
what would it take to take selfauth and replace the password function with Google's OAuth API?
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dgold
can I ask for a recommendation for automating _sending_ webmentions, preferably php?
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aaronpk
Depends on what you mean by automatic, but there is a PHP library for sending webmentions
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dgold
i managed to get replies working in my webmention implementation, displaying well as well
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www.svenknebel.de
moved /relmeauth to /relmeauth.php "naming overlap with the standard implemented by this library at [[RelMeAuth]]. Links pointing here will be updated /relmeauth will redirect to /RelMeAuth"
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Loqi
replying to a post on unrelenting.technology Nice catch, Greg, thanks! I’d moved some code around when working on bringing micro...
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dgold
works on the index page also, and greg's bug-notice meant I caught a mf2 failure
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www.svenknebel.de
edited /relmeauth (-4) "adjust redirect to link to spec - library previously living here has been moved to /relmeauth.php"
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Loqi
[indieweb] mention-client-php: Client library for sending webmention and pingback notifications
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sknebel
aaronpk: extending self-auth should be fairly easy still. what for? ;)
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aaronpk
google has probably the most secure account protection stuff out of anyone, so i was thinking about making an indieauth authorization endpoint that piggybacks on that
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aaronpk
and then realized that selfauth has already done all the indieauth bits in a very good way, so it makes sense to use that
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sknebel
it might make sense to try structure selfauth in a way that the actual authentication method can be easily swapped out
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sknebel
since you are not the first to ask about things like this ;)
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tantek
does Bridgy enable blocking particular twitter profiles from backfeed?
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aaronpk
hm bridgy uses your twitter api credentials when fetching posts, right? so if you block something on twitter then it should also affect bridgy
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Loqi
[kylewm] #473 Twitter: do not backfeed from blocked accounts
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loqi.me
edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net (+129) "sknebel added "use selfauth instead of custom, DB-based auth endpoint? (with shared secret it'd be easy to generate the correct signed token)" to "See Also""
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glenn.thedixons.net
created /User:Glenn.thedixons.net (+66) "Created page with " == Background == == Itches == == Silo Use == == Other ==""
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Loqi
[tantek] This is currently a blocker (no pun intended) for me implementing showing any kinds of comments (including from Bridgy via Twitter), and likely even reposts/likes (because I'd really like to avoid having a direct link from my site/permalinks, even in...
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Zegnat
That would be interesting to do aaronpk. Because of the 1 file system it isn’t super easy to swap just the password form. The password validation on the otherhand is already a nice separate function that you can swap out.
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sknebel
Zegnat: yeah, we'd have to pull more stuff into functions, or at least define a structure we stick to to make it easy to define patches. Or use a class you can derive from to allow overriding parts?
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aaronpk
ooh a class to be able to override parts sounds like a good approach?
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dgold
aaronpk: webmention-client-php; can I pass an url & content directly through the client, or is it dependent on parsing the outputted html?
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aaronpk
a URL to what? your own post
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dgold
a reply-to url (frinstance)
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aaronpk
it has a bunch of different ways to use it
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aaronpk
you're trying to send a webmention from your URL that is in-reply-to something else?
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dgold
well, I was looking at implementing the mention-send as part of my post-creation/micropub script
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dgold
reminds me, need to actually post about that.
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www.boffosocko.com
edited /Webmention (+668) "/* Articles */ WordPress and Perch related articles"
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aaronpk
dgold: you haven't quite explained enough for me to know if this is the answer you're looking for, but i think the "basic example" will do what you want https://github.com/indieweb/mention-client-php#basic-usage
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Loqi
[indieweb] mention-client-php: Client library for sending webmention and pingback notifications
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tantek
and webmention.io feature request - https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85 - going to need something like that before I can even show a facepile for likes
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Loqi
[tantek] #85 Feature request: filter out webmentions from particular domains / sources
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voxpelli
tantek: a block list should be possible to create with Micropub, right?
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voxpelli
So one can do it from within eg an indie reader, just like one can do in Twitter
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voxpelli
Quick thought would be: h-block, p-author=<author-to-block> But that needs dogfooding
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snarfed
brainstorm a while back on http://microformats.org/wiki/block-list-brainstorming#simple_container_of_hCards is actually ul.h-blocklist of li.h-cards
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Loqi
block-list-brainstorming
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snarfed
definitely doable in granary, converting from twitter blocklists. https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40#issuecomment-266310635
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Loqi
[snarfed] tentative proposed mf2: `ul.h-blocklist` of `li.h-card`s. based on http://microformats.org/wiki/block-list-brainstorming#simple_container_of_hCards (the `ul` could also have `h-feed`, but that may be redundant, and also the mf2 wiki says it's just ...
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voxpelli
snarfed: yeah, noticed that, feels like the blocklist container doesn't work that well though, the block should probably be self-contained
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schmarty
what are the consumers of a blocklist microformat?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "consumers of a blocklist microformat" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10pB
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snarfed
is happy to implement whatever mf2 people settle on
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Loqi
[kylewm] #473 Twitter: do not backfeed from blocked accounts
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voxpelli
schmarty: webmentions endpoints and indie readers are likely consumers
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schmarty
snarfed: since bridgy is already using twitter APIs I would assume the quickest way to check if a twitter user is blocked is to keep using those twitter APIs?
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snarfed
schmarty: yes. lots of detailed discussion on that in the issues. :P https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/473 and https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40
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Loqi
[kylewm] #473 Twitter: do not backfeed from blocked accounts
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voxpelli
snarfed: I wonder if Bridgy could make Micropub requests to sync a block list to an indie site?
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snarfed
voxpelli: probably out of scope for bridgy, but something definitely could!
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voxpelli
should stop coming up with ideas now and reread the issues before continuing
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schmarty
goes off to read
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voxpelli
realizes the time is late in Europe and postpones to another day
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voxpelli
First step for my webmention endpoint would be to start doing indieauth anyway, so dogfooding is past that in the future
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tantek
I think minimum viable blocking for Bridgy should be to "just" automatically filter out anything that the user has blocked on the silo. that should "just work" without any reconfiguration, and I think that's what issue 473 is about but I'm not sure from having read it (discussion is much broader)
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tantek
that requires ZERO new formats etc.
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tantek
then there is minimum viable response deleting which is a bit different, and probably something webmention proxies need to implement (not Bridgy)
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snarfed
tantek: right, i think that's the big remaining todo
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tantek
this is the plumbing/service equivalent of when you (as an author of a post) delete comments on your post
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tantek
comments by *others*
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snarfed
right. and only applies when you use an external wm service like wm.io
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tantek
though generalized to *any* kind of response
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tantek
or wm heroku
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tantek
looks for specific issues
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snarfed
bridgy backfeed filtering should already be happening now, since blocked users on twitter can't interact with your tweets, right?
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tantek
they can still @-mention you
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tantek
only on FB can they not @-mention you AFAIK
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tantek
or rather, on FB if you block someone, they cannot @-mention you
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snarfed
right, that's the one remaining thing. but supporting homepage webmentions is very rare, so i think we can deprioritize that part of block filtering a bit
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snarfed
tantek: e.g. i assume you'll implement rendering responses on posts way before on your homepage, right?
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tantek
"very rare" ?
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Loqi
[tantek] #85 Feature request: filter out webmentions from particular domains / sources
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tantek
snarfed, short of implementing auto-twitter-block-list-blocking, then yes, #85 is needed
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snarfed
just to check, auto-twitter-block-list-blocking would also be in wm.io, right? since bridgy can't claw back wms retroactively
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tantek
it's pretty clear we have a lot of work to do to get blocking working in any reasonable way in the indieweb ecosystem
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tantek
and I'm happy to be the canary in the coalmine for this
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tantek
if we want anyone other than highly privileged classes of folks using indieweb tools / ecosystem / techniques (POSSE & backfeed), we MUST solve block etc.
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snarfed
maybe my one big contribution right now would be to implement https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40 so that wm.io can consume and use mf2 blocklists for its filtering
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Loqi
[snarfed] #40 support block lists
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aaronpk
interesting
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tantek
snarfed, I think explicit block lists may be a distraction frankly
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snarfed
is listening
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tantek
because it's yet more maintenance for the user
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aaronpk
...there has to be a list of accounts blocked in order for webmention.io to block things
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voxpelli
made a note on #40 on thoughts on block format
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tantek
aaronpk, for there to be a list, there must be a UI for maintaining that list
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tantek
and no one has even prototyped that yet
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tantek
therefore any talk of format is frankly premature :P
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aaronpk
twitter has
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tantek
no indieweb site
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tantek
the twitter use-case should be handled automatically by bridgy backfeed without *any* need for an explicitly published list anywhere
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voxpelli
I can agree with Tantek here, dogfooding blocking with only data from Twitter to dog food with doesn't result in any good dogfooding
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aaronpk
yeah there's definitely something bridgy can do without any new format or trying to share any of these block lists
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aaronpk
stays out of this discussion until it becomes relevant to webmention.io
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snarfed
...just to confirm, do we all agree that bridgy backfeed already seems to handle twitter block lists, *except* @-mentions, which are maybe not top priority since homepage wm support is so rare...right?
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tantek
snarfed, https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85 is a workaround until Bridgy backfeed can auto-block-twitter-blocked-users
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Loqi
[tantek] #85 Feature request: filter out webmentions from particular domains / sources
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tantek
aaropnk, wm.io needs to implement persistent webmention delete
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tantek
I'll open a separate issue on that
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aaronpk
has anyone actually confirmed that bridgy doesn't send webmentions from blocked accounts? I assume that would be the case if the twitter API works like I expect, but not totally sure
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voxpelli
needs to finish full deletes as well
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tantek
voxpelli: is there a wm heroku issue on that?
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snarfed
aaronpk: yup that'd be great to confirm
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voxpelli
tantek: Bridgy probably won't delete tweets from before you block someone, does wm.io provide a moderating UI?
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snarfed
tantek: by auto-block-twitter-blocked-users, you mean just @-mentions, right?
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Loqi
[tantek] #85 Feature request: filter out webmentions from particular domains / sources
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tantek
snarfed, no, history too
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tantek
Flickr style
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snarfed
i don't understand then
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tantek
wonders if that's to obscure of a reference
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aaronpk
bridgy doesn't store webmentions tho
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tantek
apparently
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snarfed
how can bridgy claw back wms that have already been sent?
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Loqi
[voxpelli] #5 Support all CRUD operations
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tantek
aaronpk: yes it does, it has permalinks for all of them
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tantek
is very tempted to define claw back
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aaronpk
bridgy could 410 those URLs and then send webmention updates
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tantek
precisely
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aaronpk
to delete all the webmentions when you block an account
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snarfed
wow. that's really what you're proposing?!?
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tantek
that is what Flickr does
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snarfed
ok. i understand, and it's technically possible, but realistically i highly doubt i'd ever implement that
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snarfed
i understand flickr may do it, but they own the storage, which makes it way easier
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tantek
snarfed, Bridgy owns the storage of Bridgy permalinks
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aaronpk
yeah saying flickr does that is not quite fair
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snarfed
yes. again, i understand, and it's doable, but very unlikely that i'll actually implement it
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tantek
and I'm saying it is going to be (is) a user expectation of how block works
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aaronpk
any time you try to recreate a silo feature in a distributed context it's going to be much harder, so it's not fair to say "silo X does this, so it should be easy for indieweb site/app Y"
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snarfed
feel free to file the feature request though! since i don't think it's included in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/473 's scope
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Loqi
[kylewm] #473 Twitter: do not backfeed from blocked accounts
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tantek
aaronpk, wrong analogy. we're talking centralized (Twitter) to centralized service (Bridgy) here
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aaronpk
bridgy is still an indieweb app
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tantek
distributed doesn't enter into it
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aaronpk
federating with indieweb sites
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Zegnat
snarfed, do you currently keep webmention permalinks in storage for ever?
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tantek
I didn't say it was easy
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snarfed
Zegnat: yes
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voxpelli
It would be very interesting if two users with lots of history have one block the other :/
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aaronpk
attempts to test bridgy blocked accounts
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tantek
on Flickr, you can block someone to remove *all* their responses/interactions from your photos
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voxpelli
With block list at receiver it would be no issue, with block list at sender it could result in thousands of pings from a single block
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snarfed
yeah. silo backfeed is already clearly incomplete and lower fidelity in a number of ways. given that, i'm not entirely convinced that users will expect every action inside a silo to seamlessly work and propagage correctly into their site.
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aaronpk
yeah i think i'm more likely to implement blocking at the receiver end. i see why snarfed has no interest in implementing that in bridgy
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aaronpk
webmention.io being one of the receivers. so if i can get the information that someone blocked an account, I'd happily wriite something that deletes all the webmentions from the database
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tantek
snarfed, I'm not talking about "users will expect every action inside a silo to seamlessly work and propagage correctly", I'm talking about users will experience pain (abuse) and want it to go away as quickly / easily as possible
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tantek
and one of those is abusive responses showing up on their own site via Bridgy
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voxpelli
aaronpk: or probably rather just marks it as ignored, as a block can always be unblocked
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aaronpk
voxpelli: yeah true
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tantek
since we know Twitter is a cesspool of abuse, this is inevitable
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aaronpk
blocks one of his own accounts and hopes this doesn't trigger something bad
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snarfed
tantek: understood! it's definitely a noble goal. it's just also a substantial project, and requires bridgy to scale on at least a couple dimensions that it doesn't now.
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tantek
I expect, to everyone, but certainly to less privileged individuals first
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tantek
snarfed, in that case, it may be worth setting those expectations up front
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snarfed
honestly i'd like to see the native indie version of this retroactive block behavior diagrammed out and prototyped in at least one CMS first
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Zegnat
If snarfed has a webmention page that mentions multiple people he can’t 410 it just because one of the people has the sender blocked though.
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aaronpk
also that requires that webmention receivers know how to interpret the http 410 and can handle a sudden flood of incoming webmentions lol
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Zegnat
So removal might be impossible.
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Zegnat
just realised
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aaronpk
Zegnat: i thought the bridgy URLs were scoped to the account that's receiving the webmention
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snarfed
hah good point Zegnat. i suspect very few CMSes support 410 webmentions. maaaybe known? any others?
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tantek
snarfed, may be good to have Bridgy have a warning about abuse / blocking from silos
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tantek
*before* people connect their backfeed from a silo to their personal site webmention receiving
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tantek
since it's not something easily undoable
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aaronpk
types a reply on twitter for the first time in... years? and is horrified by the inability to remove people from the reply chain
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sknebel
(aaronpk Zegnat https://github.com/Inklings-io/selfauth/issues/25 issue for extending selfauth)
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Loqi
[sknebel] #25 allow using other auth methods
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tantek
and then that makes the persistent-delete-webmention more important
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snarfed
tantek: sure! in practice, i expect that surprise doesn't really happen now (yet), since almost no one supports homepage wms...but still, understood
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jjuran
aaronpk: You can remove people, but you have to click on a thing to do it.
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voxpelli
snarfed: retroactive block by 410 would only be a solution for solo -> indie, not for indie -> indie
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Zegnat
aaronpk: a homepage mention from a tweet “Hi @aaronpk @t love you guys” I would expect to get 1 page on bridgey but mention both? Not sure how much support Bridgy has for that
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aaronpk
Zegnat: i think bridgy creates two URLs for that? (correct me if i'm wrong)
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snarfed
yup. native indie blocking is either entirely inside the receiving CMS, or btw CMS and wm.io (etc)
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snarfed
aaronpk: yup two urls
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Zegnat
Yeah, not sure, I was mostly thinking outloud, aaronpk. Hoped snarfed could confirm ;)
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Zegnat
Aah, interesting mechanic then, snarfed
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tantek
snarfed, more worried about permalink backfeed abuse
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tantek
which is where it is happening on Twitter now
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snarfed
oh interesting ok. got an example?
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tantek
and often a whole load of it quickly
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aaronpk
i think it'd be reasonable for bridgy to 410 those URLs, but I don't think it's necessary for bridgy to also send webmentions for that
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tantek
before the targeted user can block all the abusers
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tantek
then all those backfeed wms make it to their personal site
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tantek
which feels major ick
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tantek
at a minimum we have to make cleaning that up easy
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voxpelli
aaronpk: if it 410:s with no ping, then what impact will it have?
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tantek
hence we need simple/fast UIs for persistent-delete-webmention
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aaronpk
voxpelli: at least someone else couldn't send a webmention for it
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aaronpk
like my script just did
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snarfed
btw aaronpk i'm happy to talk/work more on https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/85#issuecomment-316174786 if/when you're interested
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Loqi
[snarfed] hey @aaronpk, would you consider consuming mf2 blocklists as a way to implement this filtering? if so, i'm happy to prioritize snarfed/granary#40.
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aaronpk
:sigh: i sent a webmention for the blocked post from the bridgy URL thanks to my twitter search script
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aaronpk
deleted that, trying to trigger brigdy poll now
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voxpelli
snarfed: aaronpk: keep me in the loop if you work on any of that, would very much want to get something like that working before KevinMarks mentions GamerGate or something again :)
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tantek
voxpelli: interesting question, perhaps there's another way to trigger this
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aaronpk
i think bridgy is sending the webmention anyway
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tantek
considers delete as a response
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aaronpk
it found the tweet even though it's from a blocked account
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aaronpk
yep, confirmed bridgy does in fact send webmentions even if i've blocked the account
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snarfed
i wonder if twitter api search doesn't filter by the auth user's blocklist
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snarfed
probably not
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aaronpk
sounds like it
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aaronpk
i was hoping it would
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tantek
waits for aaronpk,snarfed,voxpelli to consider the implications of "delete as a response"
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voxpelli
tantek: As a response? As an activity has been discussed in https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40 at least :)
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Loqi
[snarfed] #40 support block lists
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tantek
voxpelli: block != delete
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tantek
they are different
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tantek
a block UI action may cause deletes (per Flickr implementation)
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aaronpk
delete as a response ... from? to?
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aaronpk
i don't get it
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tantek
but they are very different semantics
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tantek
aaronpk, ever deleted a comment someone made on an Instagram post of yours?
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tantek
well, in that scenario, who is the author of the delete?
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voxpelli
I don't think it's a delete as much as an ignore
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aaronpk
eh, i'm not sure i'd say i created anything by doing that
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tantek
aaronpk: in short, you are the author of the delete, and your delete is a response to the comment you are deleting on your post.
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Zegnat
I’d say that is literally deleting the local copy of the comment. I wouldn’t see that as a response per se.
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tantek
Zegnat: "local copy" is something you can't conclude from that because that's a plumbing detail
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aaronpk
also if i'm deleting a comment, i probably don't want to keep anything around that shows i deleted it
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voxpelli
(And actually, our "block" is probably more a "mute" than a "block" in the Twitter sense as a "block" is to stop others from reading your stuff)
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tantek
and certainly ambiguous on silo vs federated
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tantek
voxpelli: absolutely not. we have /block and /mute as very distinct
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Zegnat
So what would a delete response say tantek? “I received your comment, then I removed it from displaying on my end”?
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tantek
there is no "our 'block'" unless you can point to someone's implementation
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voxpelli
But in the Twitter sense, we never block anyone from reading our stuff? Or should a block list also apply to eg a webmention sender?
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tantek
Zegnat, there's the webmention a delete response would send, and there's what would a delete response look like in markup.
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tantek
voxpelli: Twitter is a poor implementer of block, bad to use that as example
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Zegnat
no, that is plumbing, as you always say, tantek ;) What would you mean by that response?
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tantek
Zegnat, you asked a plumbing question
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tantek
"what would a delete response say "
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tantek
first things first, I need to file the persistent-delete-webmention feature requests of proxies
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voxpelli
I don't like the idea of a delete response, but it so is interesting how a block would interact with Salmentions *runs and hides*
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aaronparecki.com
edited /block (+148) "/* Twitter */ add screenshot of twitter block import interface"
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Zegnat
No. What are you trying to tell the recipient with that, was what I meant. A webmention from an in-reply-to would say “I replied to you on this page”. So what would a delete response say?
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Zegnat
Trying to figure out intent, not plumbing.
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tantek
"Your response was deleted by the author of the post"
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aaronpk
i'm just going to say again that I don't want to create a permalink when I delete a reply
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aaronpk
if i delete something from my site, i don't want to leave a trace that i deleted it
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tantek
then a site like Bridgy, when it receives one of those, could actually 410 its synthetic backfeed webmention permalink!
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Zegnat
It would be interesting to receive a webmention telling me my response was deleted. Not sure what I would do with that.
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tantek
aaronpk: what happens when you receive the webmention again? and it shows up again?
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aaronpk
that's a plumbing detail
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tantek
you going to just keep deleting it in the UI whackamole style?
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aaronpk
internally i can keep a record that i deleted it
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aaronpk
and not show it again
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tantek
so you *are* keeping a trace
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aaronpk
not anywhere visible
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tantek
visible to you
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aaronpk
i was speaking from a UI perspective :)
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aaronpk
no not visible to me
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aaronpk
internally, not visible
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voxpelli
wonders if a block should retroactively apply to all Salmentions sent and thus trigger Salmention pings for all affected pages
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Zegnat
voxpelli, wow, that would be pretty horrible for almost everyone involved xD
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tantek
likely, let's try to get the simple scenario working
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voxpelli
has to leave discussions for today, need sleep before work tomorrow
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Zegnat
Have a good night voxpelli!
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aaronpk
if you block an account in webmention.io, should it continue to process and store future webmentions from that account in case you unblock the account later?
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aaronpk
or should blocking the account make it ignore future webmentions from that account?
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aaronpk
and if you unblock it later you don't suddenly see a bunch of new webmentions
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aaronpk
hm yes that is more sensible
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aaronpk
seems less surprising
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tantek
ok persistent delete issues filed
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Loqi
[tantek] #86 Feature: persistent webmention delete
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Loqi
[aaronpk] Step one for me in webmention.io would be adding a way to have block lists internally at all. I'd start by implementing a minimal UI for managing which things are blocked, similar to how this works on Twitter. Then I could definitely see syncing that...
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@webnauts
What the New Webmention and Annotation W3C Standards Mean for WordPress - https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/webmentions-annotations-web-standards/
(twtr.io/1U3PMpqhf8Y)
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aaronpk
needs to do some cleanup on webmention.io before he starts adding new features
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tantek
there's a big difference between deleting things with permalinks (and ignoring future webmentions from them), and ignoring *everything* from a particular domain/source/author
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tantek
the latter is much harder I would expect
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aaronpk
? on #86
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tantek
I'm really trying hard to minimize these features down to what would be actually useful right now
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tantek
instead of trying to solve all the problems
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tantek
here's why a delete response makes sense
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tantek
on my site, visually when I see something abusive (like a bad/garbage comment), I would have a close box / trashcan etc. UI to delete that abusive response
#
tantek
then upon clicking that, my site would generate a capability URL that doesn't show up anywhere else, that has a delete response in-reply-to (or delete-of?) the permalink of the abusive response I'm deleting
#
tantek
and then it would send a webmention to where I got the abusive response from, e.g. Bridgy backfeed
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tantek
Bridgy upon receiving it, could/would realize hey I got a delete response from the original post, I should remove / 410 my copy of the backfeed
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tantek
this is basically an alternative to moderation, wherein people have to approve every comment
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aaronpk
does this still make sense to send to other indieweb sites?
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tantek
As much as /edit posts do!
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tantek
the receiver can decide what to do wit
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tantek
*with it
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tantek
I wouldn't send it to someone I've blocked obviously
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aaronpk
sounds worth writing up somewhere
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tantek
yeah, figured I'd start with braindump in chat
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tantek
because we're going to need UI for deleting individual responses
#
tantek
this is what I'm *actually* running into while trying to implement showing responses to my own posts
#
tantek
even just a facepile of likes
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aaronpk
i have a bunch of responses i'd like to delete too
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tantek
I want to remove some of them (from spam/bot/pr0n accounts)
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aaronpk
hm also i have some responses i want to re-parse
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aaronpk
since i've improved my comment handling since originally receiving the comment
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tantek
use-case: a family member is reading my public post, sees the facepile of people liking it, sees an "interesting" avatar/icon in the facepile, clicks it, and sees a BUNCH of ugly things
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tantek
I'd really like to avoid that
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tantek
then getting the "phone" call of - I clicked this thing on your post and saw somethings very nasty - why did you link to it from your post?!?
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aaronpk
haha yeah
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Loqi
hehe
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tantek
I'm just going to say point blank that this is *essential* to go beyond gen 1/2
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Zegnat
Also note that in some countries you might be responsible for what you link to. I believe Germany has something weird about that. Though for those countries I would just advise moderation queues.
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tantek
or maybe even to go beyond just gen 1
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tantek
Zegnat or even what images you show
#
tantek
imagine an avatar/icon of something banned in Germany for example
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tantek
example of a nonsense reply to my most recent POSSE tweet: https://twitter.com/blueto67andy/status/887279851761274880
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aaronpk
warning that account is nsfw
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tantek
ugh I forgot Loqi links to that darnit
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tantek
sorry :(
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tantek
(the account that is. the permalink is fine, which is all I intended.)
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aaronpk
am i gonna have to implement blocklists on the IRC logs?
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tantek
you mean again?
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aaronpk
no like in the autolinker
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tantek
oh for historical
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tantek
not just
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tantek
!block @ blueto67andy
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tantek
(deliberate space to avoid linking)
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tantek
well that text "UI" would be one way of doing it
#
tantek
takes it to meta
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Zegnat
Such example links might be better to just remember to put in chat. If you *must* share them. Or share them by another temp page, e.g. I have shared a FB page I did not want to have the URL logged from by putting the URL on my wiki and then giving the URL to my wiki.
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tantek
good workaround for now
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snarfed
FB Graph API v2.10 is out. no big indieweb-relevant changes imho. https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2017/07/18/graph-api-v2.10/
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aaronpk
*whew*
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snarfed
also fwiw re supporting silo block lists in bridgy: of the five silos bridgy backfeeds, *only twitter* exposes users' block lists via API. details in https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/40
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Loqi
[snarfed] #40 support block lists
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tantek
Flickr does I believe
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snarfed
so users can expect bridgy to seamlessly support their silo block lists, but realistically it still won't for the majority of silos
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snarfed
tantek: i couldn't find it when i searched their API docs in 9/2015. details and links in that issue. i'd love to find out it does though!
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snarfed
on the plus side, unlike twitter, the other silos' APIs are all sane and let me get a post's comments directly, so there's a good chance they filter by block lists themselves
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tantek
indeed
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tantek
snarfed, huh, odd about that in the API - I'll hunt a bit. thought for sure it was there - since it's so well exposed in their UI around contacts
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snarfed
yeah UI sometimes but definitely not always implies API
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tantek
agreed. though knowing a bit about how they built Flickr, that's why I'm surprised.
#
tantek
I bet it's there and "just" a documentation issue
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snarfed
pls do post on the issue if you find that's true!
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tantek
no luck snarfed, I can't find it after some digging. odd.
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snarfed
thanks for trying
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tantek
tries a few filter values
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tantek
no variant of "block" or "ignore" worked. oh well.
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tantek
(where you would otherwise specify "friends" or "family")
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