#dev 2017-09-26

2017-09-26 UTC
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aaronpk well i am taking advantage of the fact that silo.pub does the actual tweet ID parsing out of in-reply-to URLs
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aaronpk so all my site has to do is find the syndication URL that matches twitter.com and pass that to silo.pub as the in-reply-to URL
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tantek interesting
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aaronpk so the code I added is basically: is the syndication target twitter? if so, is the thing I'm replying to an h-cite? if so, is the URL of that h-cite a twitter URL? if so, set the reply URL to that URL. if not, are there any syndication URLs that match twitter.com? If so, set the reply URL to the matching syndication URL. if no matching reply URL is found, abort syndicating the post
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tantek so you had to hardcode "twitter.com" or does this work for any arbitrary "*.*" syndication target / in-reply-to discovery?
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aaronpk i could abstract this out one level
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tantek hands over the spacesuit to aaronpk
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aaronpk what I need to know is whether a particular syndication destination requires a matching in-reply-to URL
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aaronpk here's the UI where I map syndication destinations to services https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-09-25-17-04-03-l3Kj9Lvvn8.jpg
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tantek remembers that "Rocket Man" has been recently used in a derogative sense unfortunately
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tantek wonders if he can beat all the AMP search results for Rocket Man
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aaronpk so that list needs to map to domain names to match up with the in-reply-to URLs
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tantek I guess I don't understand why you need to so any manual mapping at all like that
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tantek presumably all the syndication destinations are URL prefixes of any relevant in-reply-to URLs
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tantek or am I missing something
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aaronpk well as far as my site is concerned, the syndication destination domain is silo.pub
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aaronpk all my site sees is a micropub endpoint there
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tantek ah, is silo.pub hiding the actual syndication account?
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk (my syndication targets can also be webmention endpoints like bridgy publish and indienews)
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tantek perhaps that is a good reason to provide that somewhere like Bridgy sorta does
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tantek (in silo.pub)
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aaronpk i kind of like that my site doesn't need any service-specific knowledge, all it needs is a micropub URL or webmention endpoint
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tantek well sorta - you still needed server-specific knowledge to set-up those silo.pub micropub endpoints
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aaronpk not in my site!
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tantek so their endpoints might as well reflect that information in their URL
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tantek I'm saying it's a silo.pub enhancement
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tantek which then could be used to simplify (reduce) UI on your sidde
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aaronpk true, silo.pub would know which domains a service maps to
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tantek and could just make it a convention to provide that domain as part of the micropub endpoints it provides
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aaronpk would need some API to pass that back to my site after I connect silo.pub
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tantek how does your site get its micropub endpoints at all?
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tantek nevermind for which silo
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aaronpk right now I just type in an indieauth URL in my settings screen to add a new endpoint, it does the indieauth flow to get an access token
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tantek er, synd target
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aaronpk https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-09-25-17-13-16-uOU8hULTWf.jpg
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aaronpk i could even enter https://indiewebcat.com/ there and set up indiewebcat as a syndication destination
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Loqi Dora
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tantek before the NYT SMS article BTW: https://twitter.com/justin/status/883171036283285508
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@justin Someone socially engineered AT&T to get a new SIM for my phone, signed into my Paypal (using 2FA) and withdrew a bunch of money. I am livid (twitter.com/_/status/883171036283285508)
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aaronpk oh yeah i remember that
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loqi.me created /PayPal (+66) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek SMS << 2017-07-06 @justin: "[https://twitter.com/justin/status/883171036283285508 Someone socially engineered AT&T to get a new SIM for my phone, signed into my Paypal (using 2FA) and withdrew a bunch of money.]" (was actually done by SMS password reset / account recovery on [[PayPal]], see posts in tweet thread)
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@justin Someone socially engineered AT&T to get a new SIM for my phone, signed into my Paypal (using 2FA) and withdrew a bunch of money. I am livid (twitter.com/_/status/883171036283285508)
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Loqi ok, I added "2017-07-06 @justin: "[https://twitter.com/justin/status/883171036283285508 Someone socially engineered AT&T to get a new SIM for my phone, signed into my Paypal (using 2FA) and withdrew a bunch of money.]" (was actually done by SMS password reset / account recovery on [[PayPal]], see posts in tweet thread)" to the "See Also" section of /SMS
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loqi.me edited /SMS (+310) "tantek added "2017-07-06 @justin: "[https://twitter.com/justin/status/883171036283285508 Someone socially engineered AT&T to get a new SIM for my phone, signed into my Paypal (using 2FA) and withdrew a bunch of money.]" (was actually done by SMS pass" (view diff)
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tantek PayPal << SMS
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Loqi ok, I added "[[SMS]]" to the "See Also" section of /PayPal
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loqi.me edited /PayPal (+27) "/* See Also */ new section" (view diff)
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tantek PayPal << payment
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loqi.me edited /PayPal (+14) "tantek added "[[payment]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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Loqi ok, I added "[[payment]]" to the "See Also" section of /PayPal
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[kevinmarks] wasn't someone who came to hwc sf building a client-side spiderpig equivalent?
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tantek what is archive-copy
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "archive-copy" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek hmm
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tantek what is archive copy
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "archive copy" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek what is achival copy
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "achival copy" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek arggh
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tantek what is archival copy
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Loqi An archival copy is a copy of a web page made (often by someone other than the author) at a particular point in time, that can be used as a reference if the original disappears or is temporarily unavailable https://indieweb.org/archival_copy
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tantek archive copy is [[archival copy]]
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loqi.me created /archive_copy (+26) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is archive-copy
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Loqi An archival copy is a copy of a web page made (often by someone other than the author) at a particular point in time, that can be used as a reference if the original disappears or is temporarily unavailable https://indieweb.org/archive_copy
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tantek cool
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tantek webrecorder!
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[kevinmarks] that was it https://webrecorder.io/
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tantek (linked from that wiki page already)
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tantek had to do the, where would I have put that mental search
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[kevinmarks] I found it on my site from the hwc archives
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loqi.me created /indiereddit (+22) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /site-homepage (+151) "/* New live modules */ New Community Members as pointed out by GWG" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /indiecreddit (+149) "prompted by [kevinmarks] and dfn added by [kevinmarks]" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /lulz (+19) "tantek added "[[indiecreddit]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /archival_copy (+186) "/* WebRecorder */ works with browser and their service" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /Accelerated_Mobile_Pages (+103) "tantek added "2017-08-17 [https://thirtybees.com/blog/amp-is-bad-for-e-commerce/ Google AMP is bad for E-commerce]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Accelerated_Mobile_Pages (+87) "fix date, note articles to be included in criticism" (view diff)
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aaronpk oops apparently i don't support photo replies
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[kevinmarks] Has anyone investigated this? https://paul.kinlan.me/reinventing-web-intents/
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snarfed FYI all, granary now supports ActivityStreams 2!
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snarfed motivated by implementing ActivityPub in https://fed.brid.gy/
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schmarty Woo! ?
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snarfed bridgy fed can now favorite and boost toots on mastodon as well as replying to them. making progress...
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aaronpk whoa
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snarfed of the big five, mastodon works (both AP and ostatus), hubzilla works (ostatus), friendica doesn't (old ostatus was broken, new ostatus still in development), gnu social doesn't (still investigating), diaspora haven't tried yet
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rMdes_ that's great, mastondon bridgy !! #lovingit
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tantek.com edited /read (+232) "/* Tantek */ read named chapter with author domain" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed, do you think Bridgy could sponsor IWC NYC breakfast one or two days?
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snarfed tantek: sure! bridgy currently donates $100/mo via opencollective, hopefully it could come from that?
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tantek oh wow ok
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tantek I'm a bit behind on sponsoring parts of IWC events from the opencollective collections
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snarfed np!
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tantek also big thanks! 100/mo is a generous sponsorship!
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snarfed welcome! i'm not the only one. opencollective seems to be working well, lots of backers there, including others at that level. https://opencollective.com/indieweb#support
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snarfed er scroll down
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tantek whitelists oc for js
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+459) "/* Today's Discussions */ links to more chat archives" (view diff)
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snarfed re open collective, aaronpk would you be open to other peopl joining as contributors so they can self serve and use it to pay for things like iwc nyc breakfast?
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aaronpk it actually works that way already!
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aaronpk anyone can submit an expense to it
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snarfed nice! maybe worth documenting on https://indieweb.org/open_collective , maybe a new how-to-spend page
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snarfed even just a link to their docs
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tantek hmm - sounds like maybe different interpretations of "pay for things like iwc nyc breakfast?"
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tantek snarfed I presume you meant someone remote donating money for a specific item at a specific event
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snarfed tantek: no actually, someone remote withdrawing money to pay for a specific item
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snarfed e.g. an iwc nyc organizer using the funds to buy breakfast
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aaronpk that was my understanding of the question
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tantek and aaronpk sounds like you mean anyone *there* at IWC can pay (out of pocket) for breakfast and file an expense
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aaronpk yes
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tantek snarfed, except you said it in the context of "joining as contributors" so that sounded like they were donating money to oc, not withdrawing
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snarfed right! that part is great. i just expect we need to advertize more that that's possible
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tantek snarfed - which? those are two different things
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snarfed tantek: the spending part
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tantek confused because it sounded like you joined donation with paying out of pocket
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snarfed tantek: "contributor" is afaik an opencollective-specific term for someone who can manage or spend funds
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tantek wow that's not confusing at all :/
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snarfed :P
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aaronpk i'm not actually sure what their definition of that is
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tantek that's some pretty bad double-think
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aaronpk no, contributors are people who donate
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tantek I think I'm making my point about confusion
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snarfed aaronpk: are you sure? you're the only "core contributor" on https://opencollective.com/indieweb#contributors . everyone else is backer or spnosor.
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snarfed i think we all agree on the confusion :P
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aaronpk but everyone is listed under the header "Contributors"
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tantek lol
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aaronpk i don't actually know why i'm listed as a "core contributors"
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snarfed ok. maybe "core contributor." who knows
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tantek yeah so this is why "writing" is a skill like design, UX, dev - and why I encourage folks who say "I'm 'just' a writer, how can be useful to anyone?" to come share their skills at IWC
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aaronpk haha yes
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Loqi aaronpk: lol
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snarfed yes!
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snarfed also though, for this specifically, i'm trying to think for ways to advertize to people who organize and run indieweb things that they can use community funds
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snarfed ...but deferring a bit to aaronpk on policy
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tantek you would not believe how often I seem to have that conversation, to convince writers that they are just as (if not more!) important/needed as anyone "technical" for indieweb collaborations
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tantek "advertize to people who organize" is pretty much chatting in #indieweb-meta or adding to /IndieWebCamps instructions
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snarfed yup. i expect we'd also be open to non-event spending, e.g. people who run online services like the wiki
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snarfed maybe a sysadmin to rotate logs on silo.pub and woodwind ?
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[kevinmarks] agree on the writing - it matter so much. I loved EJ's biz card for that reason
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tantek snarfed oh boy - that's a very good point.
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tantek [kevinmarks] yes the writings. need them.
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snarfed may be worth a community leader sketching out some brief policy language around who can spend, for what, how, how much, etc
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tantek what are expenses
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Loqi https://indieweb.org/expenses
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tantek oh boy h-expense?!?
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tantek suspects aaronpk
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aaronpk haha
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snarfed.org edited /open_collective (+15) "/* See also */ expenses" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /how-to-sponsor (+15) "/* See also */ expenses" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /expenses (+154) "link to open collective" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /expenses (+31) "p-summary so Loqi shows dfn. otherwise people get suspicious and view source and might find random mf2 markup that SOMEONE stuck in there" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /open_collective (+36) (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /IndieWebCamps (+103) "expenses" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /open_collective (+115) "how to submit an expense" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /open_collective (+476) "add wishlist linking to github issues" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /expenses (+186) "how to submit an expense" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /open_collective (+128) (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /playlist (+83) "cross links; Stamp playlist service" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Planning (-26) "move MIT and Brighton to 2018, as well as any new ciities, add IWC Austin! add nearby events to top of year section" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+14) "/* Austin */ link to page since we have dates" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /IWC_Austin (+24) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /IndieWebCamp_Austin (+24) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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[manton] aaronpk I'm experimenting with adding rel-subscribe to Micro.blog. I noticed that your error message on aaronparecki.com has a typo: "rel-subscription".
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Loqi [manton]: jeremycherfas left you a message 3 weeks, 1 day ago: No problem with micro.blog; just an observation. The problem is with the feed I am sending.
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tantek what is rel-subscribe?
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Loqi rel-subscribe is an experimental rel value for linking from your home page to your subscription endpoint, and is currently prototyped by Aaron Parecki on aaronparecki.com; try the Follow button in the right side of the footer of his home page or any permalink https://indieweb.org/rel-subscribe
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tantek wow
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aaronpk oh fun
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aaronpk thx fixed
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tantek what is a subscription endpoint
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "subscription endpoint" yet. Would you like to create it?
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[manton] To start with, I added rel-subscribe to all the hosted sites, as well as the micro.blog root. It's still limited, but essentially takes subscribe-to and tries to find any registered user with a similar feed or site URL. Want to talk about this more sometime and improve it.
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[kevinmarks] hm. Why not rel-alternate? that's been the 'here's my feed' thing for 15 yeras or so
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[kevinmarks] http://www.diveintomark.link/2002/important-change-to-the-link-tag
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Loqi [markpilgrim] Important change to the LINK tag
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[kevinmarks] rel-subscribe << http://www.diveintomark.link/2002/important-change-to-the-link-tag
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Loqi ok, I added "http://www.diveintomark.link/2002/important-change-to-the-link-tag" to the "See Also" section of /rel-subscribe
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loqi.me edited /rel-subscribe (+69) "[kevinmarks] added "http://www.diveintomark.link/2002/important-change-to-the-link-tag" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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Loqi [markpilgrim] Important change to the LINK tag
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[manton] kevinmarks I definitely support rel-alternate too. Aaron's idea with rel-subscribe though is to streamline the process of clicking a "follow" button and being able to route the user to actually subscribing to the site. This still needs to be a lot easier.
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[kevinmarks] ah, I see
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[kevinmarks] OK
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[manton] Eventually, following web sites should be as easy as following someone on Twitter.
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[tantek] subscribe sounds like a verb, which seems to imply API endpoint rather than user visible page or feed
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[tantek] manton what do you think of the analysis on /follow ?
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[kevinmarks] or a webaction
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[manton] tantek I was just looking over that. I hadn't read it in a while.
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kevinmarks.com edited /follow (-5) "/* Follow bookmarklet */ fix url" (view diff)
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[manton] The /follow page has a lot of good info. Where I'd love to see rel-subscribe go is just making this whole process smoother. I'm on a web site, click Follow, and then magic happens, and I'm subscribed in my favorite feed reader. The closest we've ever gotten to this is feed:// URLs or browsers like Safari detecting an RSS link and prompting to do something, but those are focused on native apps and don't really know what to do if you're using Fee
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[manton] Micro.blog, or something else.
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aaronpk The main challenge with making it all seamless is the security of it
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[manton] The reason I think Twitter/Facebook follow links work is that you know something useful will happen even if the user doesn't have a Twitter account. There's no risk that they'll be taken to a dead-end like with RSS links.
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aaronpk That's a great example of the problem with rss
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[manton] aaronpk Yeah, good point.
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aaronpk at least with microformats feeds the fallback is built in, cause you just see a web page
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aaronpk The reason follow buttons work on twitter and Facebook is that when you see one, you're in the security context of being logged into your account on a domain you trust
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aaronpk so the indieweb equivalent would be looking at someone's profile in a domain you trust such as your reader app
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aaronpk then a follow button is easy and doesn't even require a spec cause it's just part of the reader interface
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[manton] So with rel-subscribe, do you eventually see that initial subscribe page (on your site) knowing if you're signed in to a specific feed service, and only falling back on the "enter your web site" prompt when it doesn't know what to do?
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+797) "AEA SF, fix some heading levels, move NYC to NYC 2017 planned, and add a 2018 NYC entry, move Austin to top since dates are known" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Planning (+22) "move Dortmund to planned section at bottom" (view diff)
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aaronpk [manton]: I'm not sure I actually see a path from that implementation to the ideal.
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[grantcodes] Woohoo I have collections working and the first proper test of my photo album micropub client!
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grant.codes edited /collection (+147) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek catches up
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tantek what is an RSS link
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "RSS link" yet. Would you like to create it?
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tantek RSS link is a hyperlink (like HTML a href) to an [[RSS]] [[feed file]], which when clicked, sometimes results in a feed view in a browser, but sometimes just shows XML gibberish, and in either case is a dead-end, poor UX, and to be avoided.
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loqi.me created /RSS_link (+267) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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[kevinmarks] this does sound like a follow webaction, by analogy to the like one
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tantek yeah
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tantek also the "logged in assumption" is common but not absolute
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tantek I forget which silo(s) do/did this - where you can still view posts etc. even when not logged in, and there are still all the response / follow buttons/webactions, but if you click any of them (like Follow) when not logged in, you go to a login redirect
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[kevinmarks] twitter actions do that
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aaronpk The security context thing still applies
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tantek yes! tweet actions
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tantek aaronpk huh?
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tantek the point being, login is not a pre-requisite for showing UI
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aaronpk This must not be replying to something I said then
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aaronpk I might have to do a microcast episode on this because it's hard to explain in text
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tantek aaronpk it really is just the webaction auth issue - as kevinmarks pointed out
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tantek if it's any easier, compare it to mailto: links
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tantek which don't require that you use the site you're on to send an email
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aaronpk Right because in that case the trust is in your OS
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aaronpk trust/login
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tantek OS / browser - same difference
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aaronpk thats my point
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aaronpk The follow action has to be at the OS, browser, or in an application you use
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aaronpk can't happen on someone else's website without leaking information or being hackable
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tantek why? I thought we proved that was not a limitation with woodwind
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aaronpk I'm not sure what flow you're thinking of with woodwind
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aaronpk the closest thing I've seen is subtome.com, since the data is stored only in your browser
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aaronpk but it's really not ideal either because it relies on both sides trusting the subtome.com domain even if no data is exchanged
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tantek aaronpk wait a minute I thought indieconfig solved this somehow
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tantek without needing so much "trust"
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tantek i.e. you can like things on my site just by clicking the like etc. buttons which via indie-config transfer you to your own personal site posting setup
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tantek follow could work the same way
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tantek kevinmarks's analogy is correct
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[kevinmarks] https://dev.twitter.com/web/follow-button/web-intent
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[kevinmarks] that will log you in if you need to
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/intent/follow?screen_name=t
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tantek interesting, that could be a silo fallback link to a generic "Follow" webaction
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[kevinmarks] be afraid: https://twitter.com/Twitter/status/912783930431905797
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@Twitter Can’t fit your Tweet into 140 characters? ? We’re trying something new with a small group, and increasing the character limit to 280! Excited about the possibilities? Read our blog to find out how it all adds up. ? https://cards.twitter.com/cards/gsby/4ubsj (twitter.com/_/status/912783930431905797)
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tantek.com edited /webactions-verbs-brainstorming (+154) "new verbs / follow" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] Looking forward to the Mastodon post about this
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tantek oh boy
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[kevinmarks] right, for you particularly that would match how ou did the repost and like buttons
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tantek yeah I might have to just deploy this right now
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+492) "/* Brainstorming */ follow with fallback" (view diff)
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tantek ok there's the straw proposal
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tantek https://indieweb.org/webactions#follow_with_fallback
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tantek aaronpk, manton ^^^
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aaronpk I'm going to have to review the web action thing again to make sure it doesn't leak info to the site about who I am or whether I'm already following them
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tantek I think that's the wrong way of looking at it
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tantek silos have no such problems
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aaronpk Because they are silos
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tantek rather, trying to avoid negatives is no way to go about designing an ideal
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tantek also - all the other fed* protos all send follow activities and such
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aaronpk That's not what I'm talking about
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aaronpk im talking about *before* I click anything
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tantek goes back to handcoding his homepage template
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tantek and my template parsing does not handle <indie-action> - ok that's going to be more work
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tantek no it was something else. hmm
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tantek now what's a good follow icon
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tantek +?
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tantek and deployed. "Follow" webaction with Twitter fallback now on my homepage - right column
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tantek oh hey this was here before: https://indieweb.org/follow#Follow_Webaction
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+97) "/* follow with fallback */ add my home page since I'm trying this out" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /follow (+63) "/* Follow Webaction */ fix typo, see brainstorm on webactions page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webactions (+46) "/* follow with fallback */ link to origins" (view diff)
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tantek now IIRC indie-config needs a place to configure an endpoint for follow
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tantek !tell voxpelli I'm experimenting with a "follow" webaction on my homepage - take a look and let me know if you think /indie-config needs any changes to support handling "follow" and passing it to your website to handle
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk snarfed: you ready to test new 280 character tweets? heh
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aaronpk i *think* XRay/Loqi don't make any assumptions about tweet length anymore now that I've moved over to the new API
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tantek I have one
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tantek $tw_max_len = 140;
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tantek phew
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/caitlin__kelly/status/912795950476857344
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@caitlin__kelly 139 characters https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKrm0PdXUAIj95-.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/912795950476857344)
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tantek amazing
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snarfed hides
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snarfed nice, old https://dev.twitter.com/ redirects to new https://developer.twitter.com/ , but breaks old links to API docs
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snarfed otherwise, hands up if you get max tweet length from the /help/configuration API call like they tell us to? i'm guessing...no one :P
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tantek.com edited /live_streaming (+49) "see also chat" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /tinbox (+209) "tantek_ added "write an mf2 to indieweb version of this article, showing which minimal, typical, maximal properties to use for which effects in indieweb posts and interactions: https://moz.com/blog/meta-data-templates-123" to "See Also"" (view diff)