#dev 2017-11-13

2017-11-13 UTC
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@aaronpk
@ubiquitic @ubiquitic What's crazier is that escorts site actually set up Webmentions and wrote a real blog post about it! They appear to be using @adactio's post to test it. https://www.midlandsmaidens-escorts.com/post-pinger/
(twtr.io/1YG9qVvYiaU)
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tantek
looks like adactio is going to have to consider implementing Vouch!
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Loqi
tantek: snarfed left you a message 1 hour, 20 minutes ago: yes! indie map does count responses by type, both overall and per site. http://www.indiemap.org/docs.html#stats . see the "mf2 class frequency" and "mf2 class frequency by site" graphs
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Loqi
tantek: snarfed left you a message 1 hour, 20 minutes ago: not over time though, since the crawling is a big chunk of the total work.
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aaronpk
except oops now I can be used as a vouch for that site :P
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tantek
if they end up implementing Vouch, and finding your post, that will be even *more* impressive
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tantek
so I'd say leave it as a canary
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tantek
early warning systems are good to have, even if they're just probabilistic
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snarfed
so that's still arguably *not* the first native wm spam, right?
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tantek
no it is
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aaronpk
the first one of theirs is arguably not spam
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tantek
or rather, the article that aaronpk linked to is not spam
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aaronpk
the ones still visible on that screenshot are pretty much spam
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tantek
right, that ^^^. They put in an invisible link, send the webmention, it shows up on adactio's post, they remove the invisible link
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tantek
so either something like moderation, or a delay before displaying (and perhaps reverifying the source links to the target say a few hours later) would work
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tantek
but yeah, the race is on to start more broadly implementing, deploying, iterating on /Vouch
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@nhoizey
@aaronpk @ubiquitic @adactio That’s both weird and awesome for Webmention… ?
(twtr.io/1YGBVBtcJWQ)
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snarfed
ok! let's document it then
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@aaronpk
@ubiquitic @nhoizey @adactio @ubiquitic There's nothing third party about the webmention spec! There are some services that will collect webmentions for you, but you can also receive them directly yourself!
(twtr.io/1YGBn01zrtc)
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aaronpk
hm the canoe problem is growing
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aaronpk
I think silo.pub needs to not add the username for me
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aaronpk
twitter should really be able to figure that out tho
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@ubiquitic
@aaronpk @nhoizey @adactio Ah, OK, thanks. It’s just that so far everything I read makes a mention of, or use, a third party service.
(twtr.io/1YGBynAV3D4)
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@schnarfed
@ubiquitic @aaronpk @nhoizey @adactio there are definitely a few mature services, but the big indieweb CMSes (WordPress and Known) receive and store webmentions locally, as do most homegrown ones.
(twtr.io/1YGY5Z45VxL)
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@flareduststudio
I am testing webmentions rn
(twtr.io/1YG_G7PtkxL)
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oodani
Whoa, new problem in the currently live version of Woodwind: it uses response_type=code when it's IndieAuthing, but it doesn't pass any scopes to request from the user. My understanding is that the scope parameter is mandatory when you use response_type=code, since there's no sensible default for it.
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oodani
(As a result I return a 400 if you have response_type=code but no scope=, so I can't log in. :P )
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oodani
Oddly enough, IndieAuth.com actually *does* send a scope parameter (which is empty), but *doesn't* send a response_type, so the scope gets ignored.
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oodani
That's okay under the spec though, I think.
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Zegnat
My scope regex definitely allows empty values. I think that came straight from the OAuth spec, but I would have to double check.
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Loqi
Zegnat: snarfed left you a message 8 hours, 30 minutes ago: btw http://www.indiemap.org/ is a good source for the kinds of stats you all were idly guessing about while debating authorship and representative h-card. easy to data mine w/SQL. happy to help!
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@adactioLinks
Post Pinging and Webmentions at Midlands Maidens Nottingham Escorts https://www.midlandsmaidens-escorts.com/post-pinger/
(twtr.io/1YGz646hvW8)
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[pfefferle]
good morning
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www.arush.io
created /User:Www.arush.io (+691) "Created page with "<span class="h-card">[http://www.arush.io/ Amanda Rush]</span> == Itches == * Create a more seemless workflow for posting content to my site to help transition from silos * Crea...""
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[eddie]
miklb Quick question. One focused goal for "likes" and "bookmarks" was I wanted to make it as easy as possible to post. So one goal was to have it one click if possible. With that in mind I have to ways I'm thinking about adding "extra options" to likes and bookmarks in Indigenous.
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[eddie]
Do you have any strong feelings to either approach?
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[eddie]
Options A: Posting has an "auto-post" timeout where if you don't select any options it just auto-posts within like 5-10 seconds (similar to Instapaper's share extension). Option B: You would have a "Send" button on the options screen, requiring two taps but still operating pretty quickly if you don't want to add options.
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aaronpk
interesting
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aaronpk
in general, I don't think there should be any additional options possible for a "like" post
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[eddie]
Not even syndicate-to?
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aaronpk
not user-selectable
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aaronpk
in quill, if you "like" a URL that is on twitter.com, it will go and "like" the tweet for you
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[eddie]
Interesting. Does quill do that through the API or through a syndicate-to target?
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aaronpk
it does it through the api directly, you have to authorize quill to post to your twitter account
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[eddie]
ahh gotcha
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aaronpk
one trick with using syndicate-to for that is there is no association between syndicate-to targets and URL patterns, so a client wouldn't know that uid=xyz corresponds to twitter
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aaronpk
the micropub server could know that though, and might be a more appropriate place for it
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aaronpk
i've started to do some of that kind of automation in mine, for example when I reply to an indie post that is syndicated to twitter it knows to match up the tweet URL and also reply on twitter
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[eddie]
That makes sense, and that's some nice automation. I do feel like syndicate-to is a decent option for a like because you might want to syndicate to github, for example. But I don't know if we want to assume that everyone will be able to automate? But they might be able to add syndication targets.
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aaronpk
well my thinking was that since syndicate-to is just telling the micropub server to do something, it's not a huge stretch to imagine that the server could set that automatically
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aaronpk
the syndicate-to parameter in micropub is meant to be a user-level selection of where to syndicate a post
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aaronpk
since it's very unlikely that you'd ever want to like a twitter URL on your site and *not* also like it on twitter, it might as well be done automtaically
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aaronpk
your question is more interesting for bookmarks though
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aaronpk
what i've done with quill is have it fill out the name, URL, (and if you've selected text on the page, then it includes that) for bookmark posts automatically, so that by the time you're on the quill bookmark interface you can just click the button to create the bookmark
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aaronpk
if you want, you can customize it, changing the name, or adding tags, etc.
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aaronpk
I don't think having an intermediate screen for bookmarks is cumbersome, and I wouldn't be surprised to have that same kind of thing on iOS
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[miklb]
Quill also has a mechanism to map a like to Twitter though, yes?
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aaronpk
quill does yeah, because you have to give it your twitter oauth permissions, and then it looks for a "like-of" url that matches a tweet permalink
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Zegnat
Is there any place where you can bookmark without an intermediate screen? Even hitting the browser’s bookmark keyboard shortcut (in both Firefox and Chrome) will have the bookmark popover show in case I want to edit some details. Unless you are doing some sort of “read later” feature, I think it is almost expected to show an intermediate screen for
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Zegnat
bookmarks.
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[miklb]
That was my main thought. I’m in Tweetbot & want to like a tweet, how do I like via micropub & Tweetbot w/one action
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aaronpk
[miklb]: what i'm saying is the micropub server should essentially be setting the "syndicate-to" property itself automatically
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aaronpk
since it's only the micropub server that knows which of your syndication targets corresponds to twitter
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aaronpk
a micropub client doesn't know which of the targets is a twitter one, and you might even have more than one twitter target, so which would it use then?
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[miklb]
That’s why I thought supporting syndicate-to for likes would be needed
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aaronpk
okay let me back up
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aaronpk
here's my list of syndication targets that Indigenous gets: https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2017-11-13-08-02-15-YmSga9TTXu.jpg
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aaronpk
if the app recognizes that i'm liking a tweet permalink, how does it choose which of those values to set as the syndicate-to value?
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[miklb]
I guess I was assuming you would be shown all of the targets and select which one you wanted to use.
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[miklb]
you are suggesting I should have logic on my end to know where to syndicate to?
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aaronpk
well my goal is to be able to use the "like" feature without adding any additional actions beyond what you'd do on twitter
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aaronpk
I don't want to add a step for liking
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aaronpk
one way Indigenous could do this is to ask which of your syndication targets it should use for tweet permalinks and save that in the preferences
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[miklb]
Right now, WordPress plugins really only have the bridgy publish syndication targets. I’ve added a hacky one to use shpub to like/star GitHub repos.
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[miklb]
my GitHub target doesn’t actually do anything yet, I’m curling silo.pub in same shell command as I’m sending the micropub like to. I need to figure out the WordPress micropub client more to understand how to trigger my action for my custom target
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[miklb]
Likewise. I’m totally open to doing it on my end if that’s the preferred way. I’m just not sure how to implement that.
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aaronpk
I guess it's a matter of how much smarts to build into clients vs servers
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tinokremer.nl
edited /Hugo (-156) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
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aaronpk
if [eddie] is up for building out the logic for saving a default syndicate-to target for certain URL patterns, then the server wouldn't need to do anything special, just recognize the syndicate-to parameter like normal
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[miklb]
If it is determined it’s better done on the micropub server side, I’m all for working with snarfed to implement that for WordPress. We’ve discussed better syndicate-to support in the plugin already, this would just be a logical next step.
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aaronpk
the nice thing about doing it on the server is it means it'll work with every client without the client supporting it
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[miklb]
agreed
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tinokremer.nl
edited /Grav (+128) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
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[miklb]
I certainly would prefer my server knowing if I’m liking a GitHub repo to use the silo.pub target, and if it’s a tweet to use the appropriate target for that as well.
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tinokremer.nl
edited /Grav (+89) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
(view diff)
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[miklb]
sounds like I need to get my hands dirty in the micropub plugin as this is a definitely an itch I want to scratch
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[eddie]
haha, wow I need to catch up
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Loqi
[eddie]: lol
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sknebel
Zegnat: browsers are half-way: there is an intermediate screen, but you can basically ignore it
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sknebel
(well, if you are using the mouse as well, it catches keyboard focus)
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[eddie]
That all makes sense. I'm also happy to build in things that might make stuff easier for people when they are in earlier stages of development. So having some type of "default" syndicate targets make sense. I think the tricky thing is to determine if there are a set number of items (twitter, github, etc) or if you can do a basic pattern matching in the config. I feel like having hard-coded is more user friendly and then in the end I could expand
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[eddie]
"Custom Patterns"
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[eddie]
Speaking of what sknebel just mentioned about browser bookmarks is basically what I was thinking about, a screen that allows short-term option selection but also can be ignored
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aaronpk
hm if you want to be able to actually ignore it, then you need to actually create it first and update it later, but that'll require the micropub endpoint to support updates
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[eddie]
You have say 10 seconds to change something or else it will auto-post
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aaronpk
that's probably a good in-between
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aaronpk
can it post even if you move the app to the background tho?
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[eddie]
Well my thought around that is essentially a timeout
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[eddie]
Yes, as long as it's a fixed short amoutn of time
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[eddie]
That video is a demo of Instapaper's passive-options feature that inspired my thinking
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aaronpk
for the other question, i'd say basic hard-coded pattern matching is a good place to start. I'd expect to see an interface like "choose your syndication endpoint for tweet permalinks" and "for github repos"
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[eddie]
That makes sense. I definitely that's a useful feature to add to the list
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[eddie]
Hmmm, does Loqi add video links from Slack to IRC or just photo links?
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[eddie]
Seems like the video hasn't made it through
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aaronpk
oh huh
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[eddie]
Maybe it's just copying the video to the url
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tinokremer.nl
edited /silo-quits (+470) "/* Silo quitters 2016 */"
(view diff)
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[eddie]
I'm uploading it to my media endpoint so I can just post the link
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aaronpk
that makes sense
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[eddie]
I guess the main question is for something like bookmarks, do you all think that would make it more difficult by having to enter info within a certain amount of time?
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sknebel
if it is timed, I would expect a display of that and it cancelling if I do anything that might be the start of adding details
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sknebel
(cancelling the timer, not the action of course)
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[eddie]
That makes sense. The timer cancellation is a definite. I had thought about the display of the time and not displaying the time, couldn't decide which felt better to me
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[eddie]
So that's good to know
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sknebel
doesn't have to display the actual time, but some animation that gives a sense of it IMHO should be there
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[eddie]
Ahh gotcha :thumbsup:
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[eddie]
most definitely
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tantek
who else has thoughts on a 2018-01-01 commitment? https://indieweb.org/2018-01-01-commitments
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tantek
I still need to think of one and something to show this week too!
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sknebel
why does superfeedr think "Event" is a good description of tantek's HWC announcement?
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tantek
because superfeedr prefers Atom and tantek was too lazy to write the additional code path to generate event-post-specific content for Atom entry elements
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tantek
Atom--
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Loqi
atom has -1 karma in this channel (1 overall)
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tantek
feedfiles--
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Loqi
feedfiles has -1 karma
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tantek
sidefiles--
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Loqi
sidefiles has -1 karma in this channel (-3 overall)
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grantcodes
hey aaronpk random microsub thought for the day: Is there a way to know if a user has already liked a post or any other "actions" seems like quite a vital feature for readers to keep track of.
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tantek
grantcodes, that information can be published as part of the posts' h-entry
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tantek
all its responses can be nested h-entry s
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grantcodes
Hmm yeah good point, it's not a guarantee that it will be published though
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grantcodes
It is guaranteed to be saved somewhere on your own site though
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tantek
grantcodes, you can check the pages /comments /likes /reposts for examples of how people are displaying those responses on their posts
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tantek
and see if they're marked up!
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aaronpk
I do think that'd be a useful thing to include in the microsub response
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tantek
as part of the properties for an h-entry?
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aaronpk
not sure
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grantcodes
tantek: Yeah I understand that but I could easily like a page that doesn't support webmentions
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aaronpk
yeah I wonder where in the response that should be included
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sknebel
what is dokku?
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Loqi
Dokku is a PaaS implementation similar to Heroku that you can run on your own site https://indieweb.org/dokku
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snarfed
"PaaS...you run on your own site" ?
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sknebel
suggestion for a better definition?
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sknebel
after reading that I thought it was exactly what it turns out to be, so I'd say it's pretty good
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snarfed
sorry, i'm not familiar with it. just thought that was a funny contradiction
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snarfed
"service" (the S) usually implies someone else runs and manages it. maybe "app sandbox" or "app platform"
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sknebel
I guess that's in the "implementation"
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aaronpk
[eddie] I logged in to Indigenous successfully!
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aaronpk
but now I can't find it in the share actions
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[miklb]
from the share sheet
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[miklb]
might need to activate it. The last item is a … that you can click and add/move items around?
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aaronpk
yeah it's not in that list either
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schmarty
aaronpk: i was able to find it by going to a page and using the share action. it was a listed as "Micropub" in the list of apps, not the list of actions on the bottom.
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schmarty
not sure if that helps. iphone 8 running latest ios.
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aaronpk
the "activities" list with colored icons?
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aaronpk
it should work from a URL in safari right?
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schmarty
yep, the list of icons in color. that's how i found it.
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schmarty
from a URL in safari.
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aaronpk
weird, it's definitely not there
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schmarty
i made my first post from indigenous! https://martymcgui.re/2017/11/13/141059/
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[eddie]
aaronpk: right now it only supports urls, so it can only be activated inside of a Share url context. As I add text sharing and image sharing in the next updates it’ll show up in more contexts
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aaronpk
[eddie]: so if i'm on a web page in safari that should work right?
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aaronpk
that's what I was trying
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[eddie]
strange.
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[eddie]
Which iOS are you on?
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aaronpk
11 something
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[eddie]
Hmm that's very strange
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[eddie]
aaronpk: Just to confirm you're doing this? https://eddiehinkle.com/media/activating-indigenous.mov
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aaronpk
(why is your phone so skinny and tall?)
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[eddie]
iPhone X
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aaronpk
I didn't realize how different that size is
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[eddie]
Yeah it's definitely extra tall
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[eddie]
Feels like a Plus size phone in height
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[eddie]
Now THAT is strange ?
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aaronpk
um, i'm gonna delete and reinstall the app. it's not even appearing in settings.
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tantek
what app?
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[eddie]
Oh Strange. Yeah might have been a strange installation issue
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aaronpk
[eddie]'s micropub app
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[eddie]
tantek: Indigenous
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tantek
oh cool
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aaronpk
what it just downloaded itsefl
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loqi.me
created /Anchor (+84) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by Zegnat"
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kaja.sknebel.net
edited /Anchor (+1) "linkify ('x is y. <url>.' pattern)"
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aaronpk
that was weird
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[eddie]
Hmm like you deleted it and it re-downloaded automatically?
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[eddie]
creepy TestFlight is creepy
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tantek
what is TestFlight?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "TestFlight" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indieweb.org/s/10wG
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aaronpk
deleted again, downloaded again, and it's still not showing up
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aaronpk
maybe i'll reboot
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aaronpk
wtf, a new app icon appeared after I rebooted
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aaronpk
something weird is going on
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[eddie]
There is definitely something strange going on. That doesn't sound normal at all
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[eddie]
Maybe delete any copies of Indigenous. Reboot phone and hope no zombie-copies show up?
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aaronpk
argh. deleted, rebooted, reinstalled, still nothing
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aaronpk
i'm on 11.0.2 right now, going to update my phone to 11.1.1
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[eddie]
That is very strange. I'm on 11.0.2 as well. But yeah, doesn't hurt to upgrade to 11.1.1
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[manton]
eddie Congrats on the beta. I guess I should've tested before linking Micro.blog users to it... ? Doesn't appear to be compatible with Micro.blog yet. Can it send regular posts, or just like/repost/bookmark posts for URLs?
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Loqi
[manton]: [eddie] left you a message 2 weeks, 3 days ago: Successful post from the iOS app to my micropub endpoint (https://eddiehinkle.com/2017/10/27/8/article/) only problem I seem to have run into is my JSON feed not getting pulled in (https://eddiehinkle.com/timeline/feed.json) is WebSub required for the JSON feed? If so, that's the missing piece
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[eddie]
Oh currently only like/repost/bookmarks
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[manton]
Also, for whatever it's worth, I'm on 11.1 and it shows up in the sharing options for me.
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tantek_
[manton] is HWC Austin on this week?
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[eddie]
Hmm that brings up something interesting. Should there be any fallback in micropub if likes/etc aren't supported or those are typically standard enough that there doesn't need to be a fallback?
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[eddie]
Thanks manton ?
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[manton]
tantek Nope, we had it last week. We are trying first Wednesday of each month to start with.
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tantek_
oh? hmm, but 11/1 was first wednesday of the month
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[manton]
Oh sorry. Yes, we had it 11/1! November is going by too quickly. ?
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tantek_
ok cool
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[manton]
eddie Is there actually a way for a Micropub client to query an endpoint for what kind of posts it supports?
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aaronpk
we haven't tried going down that rabbit hold yet
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aaronpk
it's dangerous territory
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[manton]
This definitely bumps up the priority for Micro.blog to support like/bookmark. It has been on my to-do list.
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Loqi
[cleverdevil]: [eddie] left you a message 3 days, 22 hours ago: FYI, I'm opening up the beta of Indigenous for iOS. Before anyone gets too excited it currently supports using the share extension when activated against a URL (in safari or other apps like TweetBot) for the following actions: Like, Repost and Bookmark. The next build will hopefully support posting notes and replies. The micropub media endpoint stuff will be in the third build (timeline undeterm
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Loqi
[cleverdevil]: [eddie] left you a message 3 days, 22 hours ago: FYI, I'm opening up the beta of Indigenous for iOS. Before anyone gets too excited it currently supports using the share extension when activated against a URL (in safari or other apps like TweetBot) for the following actions: Like, Repost and Bookmark. The next build will hopefully support posting notes and replies. The micropub media endpoint stuff will be in the third build (timeline undetermined
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[eddie]
Awesome ? Sorry to hijack your plans ? But I think that seems like a great direction to head. I wasn't sure if the lack of likes was intentional or not
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tantek
[manton] for responses, I believe we have figured out back compat ways of supporting anything
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tantek
the more interesting cases are for supporting whole new post types like events
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tantek
so re: responses, pretty sure clients can just post them to servers and have reasonable things happen
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[eddie]
tantek: would back compat support of a like be adding a description of the action to summary attribute? or something else
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tantek
summary property yes - that's part of the design of responses
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aaronpk
i'm not actually sure if the wordpress micropub plugin supports that, but that'd be a good thing to do
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tantek
now I'm wondering what publishers actually do
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tantek
or if it should be a choice?
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tantek
curious I thought I was already doing that too but wasn't hmm
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aaronpk
doing what? I didn't think you had any micropub support yet
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tantek
wait a minute - I am doing it but I didn't see the markup, but pin13 did. (summary fallback for likes)
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aaronpk
oh on that side
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tantek
auto-summary fallback
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tantek
oh true, that could be a server-side responsibility only
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aaronpk
hey [eddie] after I updated my phone the app is there!
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tantek
optional for the micropub client
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[eddie]
YAY!!! ?
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aaronpk
weird bug!
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[eddie]
Very strange bug
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[eddie]
especially that you are the only one I've heard of that ran into it lol
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tantek
hmm, I have a summary property but no in-reply-to, which would prevent the fallback from working
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aaronpk
define "working"
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aaronpk
it'll still show up as a mention
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tantek
ah, but not a reply
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aaronpk
I think that's okay
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tantek
I wonder which is preferable
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aaronpk
if I didn't recognize "likes", I'm pretty sure I would rather have those show up under "mentions" to keep the "replies" high-signal
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tantek
if a server only supports showing comments (not likes), should a like show up in its list of comments? or be relegated to random mentions?
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tantek
that's not how the wordpress webmentions display thing works though
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tantek
it shows them all interspersed in one stream of responses by time
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tantek
though I don't know if that's by design or accidental
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snarfed
tantek: not any more, it has facepiles now. e.g. https://snarfed.org/2016-11-29_a-medium-is-born#comments
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Loqi
[Giri Sreenivas] Giri Sreenivas
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[eddie]
reacji++
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Loqi
reacji has 1 karma in this channel (-1 overall)
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[eddie]
oh my! -1 for reacji??
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aaronpk
probably just for the name lol
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aaronpk
hah it would be funny if the wordpress plugin beats me to displaying reacji using my own library
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snarfed
reacji--
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Loqi
reacji has 0 karma in this channel (-2 overall)
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snarfed
reactions++
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Loqi
reactions has 1 karma
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[eddie]
ohhhh gotcha
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[eddie]
I like the name reactions better too
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aaronpk
not to dig up an old thread, but I thought slack also called it reacji
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aaronpk
"Whenever anyone adds that emoji as a reaction (or, reacji, a term which we’re stubbornly trying to make happen)..."
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snarfed
that quote kinda says it all
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aaronpk
I do think "reactions" covers more than just those
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aaronpk
i'd be happy with "emoji reactions"
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snarfed
backs away slowly
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aaronpk
runs away quickly
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www.boffosocko.com
edited /Indieweb_for_Journalism (+419) "Dan Gillmor POSSE example to Slate.com"
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Zegnat
I like “reaction” too. I kinda like petermolnar’s definition of it as a “templated comment”: https://petermolnar.net/making-things-private/#silo-reactions-only-make-sense-within-the-silo
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manton.org
edited /Main_Page (+223) "Added Austin link to the home page."
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Loqi
[bradfitz] #975 importer: look into brid.gy
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (-234) "/* IndieWebCamp */ -BER"
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snarfed
funny, i was hanging out with him in person just yesterday. maybe that triggered it
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