#dev 2017-11-27

2017-11-27 UTC
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loqi.me edited /social_media (+94) "aaronpk added "https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2017/11/the-end-of-the-social-era-twitter-facebook-snapchat" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Bookmarklet (+108) "Convert bookmarklet to Chrome Extension" (view diff)
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@BartelsXander Webmention https://buff.ly/2iREn5g (twitter.com/_/status/935053582155636736)
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[kevinmarks] Is there a rel canonical for the pages that don't 301?
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Zegnat The Kirby starter kit template does not include rel="canonical", [kevinmarks].
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[kevinmarks] That might be a change to submit, as that SEO case is why rel-canonical was originally proposed
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[kevinmarks] Getting it to 301 would be better, but that's probably more work
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vanderven.se martijn edited /pronoun (+77) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ My pronouns are definitely visible by now, add 00dani as another example.(no date)" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /pronoun (+54) "/* See Also */ Look at the Microformats.org link for mark-up ideas." (view diff)
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sknebel [miklb]: from a quick look, seems like they have a bunch more specialized cases and info about the event that's interesting for someone picking an event to go to (e.g. who is performing there, what do tickets cost, how large is the venue, ... https://schema.org/Event), whereas microformats events are mostly based on calendar-entry formats?
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tantek sknebel, more like events people actually go to, that are actually published on the web
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tantek the schema-org stuff has a bunch of stuff that's anywhere from NIH (reinventing iCal for no reason) to proposed/aspirational etc. note that very few (if any?) of their additional properties have any basis in research, examples etc.
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tantek which speaks to schema-org as a whole, mostly made up stuff and proposals. a tiny fraction of it is in actual use
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tantek whereas with microformats we ask for use-cases for every single property etc., experiment with it with real world examples (and consuming code) before making it an accepted part of the format
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[miklb] that’s all well and good tantek but it doesn’t mean it can be ignored for commerce.
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tantek helps keep microformats micro
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tantek miklb the stuff on schema can be used for brainstorming ideas sure
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tantek but unless someone has an actual demonstrable use-case for "commerce", then yes, it can be ignored as just SEO hype
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GWG snarfed, you submitted the citation add on to Semantic Linkbacks ages ago, right?
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[miklb] so sayeth tantek, so sayeth the flock
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GWG Oh, just missed him
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tantek miklb, you asked originally about "the difference between Google’s/schema.org Event markup and mf2?" and I answered in general the difference between schema and mf2
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[miklb] and then went on about how it’s just bullshit SEO
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tantek it's not about who sayeth what. anyone can ask the critical questions of schema (or mf2) and come to the same answers
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tantek the emperor of scheme has no real world clothes
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tantek miklb the way schema is pitched today, yes it is 99% bs SEO, 1% maybe actual useful info for search results
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tantek even google search itself only pays attention to a tiny fraction of schema objects and properties
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tantek and ignores the rest
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[miklb] your points are duly noted
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tantek (that tiny fraciton *is* useful to document, because it is a real world use-case)
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tantek just saying, a lot of noise in the schema as a whole
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[miklb] if not anticipated and expected
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tantek that means they should like be written on a wiki / FAQ
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tantek *likely
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GWG I always go with simple answers
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GWG I find Microformats easy to adopt
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GWG My eyes start to glaze over reading schema.org
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tantek Thanks GWG. That being said, if you find your eyes glazing over with reading a particular page at microformats.org - definitely point it out so we can improve it!
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GWG Otherwise, on a cynical note, I want to support anything
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GWG There is no Microformats 2 example on the checkin page
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tantek what is a checkin
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Loqi A checkin is the action of checking into a location and sharing that information https://indieweb.org/checkin
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tantek indeed this needs work: https://indieweb.org/checkin#Publish
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GWG Most of the other post type pages have a code example
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GWG I noticed when aaronpk noted that I had introduced a mistake in my markup
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[miklb] I would argue that as “IndieWeb” becomes more than a wiki and few people in IRC that wholesale slamming of schema.org be a personal comment and not something that appears to be a community decision. Advocating for mf2 is one thing…
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tantek miklb none of it should be personal like "schema smells bad", but rather with specific reasons as I gave above
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tantek no need to get personal when there are numerous obvious objective flaws to point out
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tantek GWG, we've brainstormed about checkin markup a few times
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[miklb] personal in that it is *your* opinion, not a community stance. Not personal in an attack.
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tantek miklb, when reasoning is given, it's no longer an opinion, but an objective statement, so please stop calling is "your opinion"
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GWG tantek, agreed. But the page could use an example.
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GWG I may try to add one.
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tantek if you want to debate the reasoning that's one thing, but stop pretending it's not there
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tantek GWG, I think aaronpk's checkins may be worth analyzing for their markup
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GWG I did. I looked at his markup and how xray saw sites.
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GWG And redid my code.
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tantek that's probably a good way to start - we've done that on other pages like /video#IndieWeb_Examples - each notes the kind of markup it uses
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tantek something comparable would probably be good to do on https://indieweb.org/checkin#Aaron_Parecki and later examples
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GWG You and aaronpk are usually my go to examples.
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GWG You have experience.
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tantek a lot of the earlier checkin examples were more experiments
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Zegnat Both sebsel and I started out implementation from the discussion had here: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2016-12-14#t1481739707226000 (as linked to from my section on /checkin)
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Loqi [Zegnat] So I guess I should use .p-location.p-checkin.h-[card|adr|geo] if I am posting from my checkin location
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tantek Zegnat, take a look at how the different examples here documented what markup they used: https://indieweb.org/video#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek we need that same level of analysis documented inline in the wiki for https://indieweb.org/checkin#IndieWeb_Examples
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Zegnat Yep. I am not sure why we didn’t do that back then
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tantek we just haven't gotten to it yet. not a matter of "back then"
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tantek e.g. if you could at least add your own checkin markup details to your example like on the video page that would be helpful as a start
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Zegnat It is a matter of back then. sebsel and I were sitting at a HWC, discussing how we were going to post our venue checkin on IRC, got to some conclusion based on input from several people, but we then didn’t documented the result on the wiki.
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Zegnat And I am now wondering why we didn’t.
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Zegnat Might have saved people who came after us a lot of time :P
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GWG I am using p-checkin, but p-location is a property of h-entry for me. Changing it would be a job
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Zegnat We used p-location because the post was made from said location, which is where the p-location on h-entry is for.
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Zegnat I would have to revisit the chatlogs to see why we got to that conclusion
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GWG I just can't put p check-in inside location yet
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tantek not inside, on same element AFAIK
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Zegnat Is there a special reason for that? p-checkin is already under h-entry right? Just like p-location?
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tantek e.g. class="p-location p-checkin"
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Zegnat Yes, same element.
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tantek and not necessarily always
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tantek I think only p-checkin is required for a checkin right? from discussions I recall
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tantek or u-checkin to a URL of a venue (h-card)
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GWG I have them separate
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tantek one reason they could be different is that the checkin is typically a *venue* whereas the location could be the lat/long of where you actually are
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Zegnat There was some discussion in the previously linked IRC chat about how *-location and *-checkin go together and/or replace each other.
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Zegnat I have to head out now. But I guess that entire conversation should be read again and the conclusions brought over to the wiki.
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Zegnat adds to ever-growing to-do list
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tantek Zegnat, if there are discrete points in that chat that are worth keeping, they need to be extracted and added to /checkin#Brainstorming
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gRegorLove Zegnat, did you see my response re: /read micropub?
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tantek it's not reasonable to expect people to have to reference/read/digthrough chat logs to find points made
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tantek (not as bad as "it's on the mailing list" but still too much work for later re-use)
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[miklb] that’s exactly what he said
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[miklb] " But I guess that entire conversation should be read again and the conclusions brought over to the wiki.”
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tantek missed that line in the chat
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Zegnat gRegorLove, I did, thanks!
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Zegnat I didn’t get a webmention though, gRegorLove? Did you not send or is something broken?
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gRegorLove Hm, I'll check
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gRegorLove Looks like I got a 404 sending webmention to http://vanderven.se/mention.php
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Zegnat Your URL resolver is broken then.
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[jeremycherfas] Millville++
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Loqi millville has 1 karma
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gRegorLove It's returning 400 for me in the browser.
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Zegnat vanderven.se/martijn/ links to "mention.php", so should resolve to vanderven.se/martijn/mention.php
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Zegnat If you tried sending to vanderven.se/mention.php you resolved to the wrong endpoint URL
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[jeremycherfas] Darned Otto Corrupt. In any case, the moment has passed.
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Zegnat vanderven.se/martijn/mention.php should return 400 to browsers, as the GET request isn’t accepted by the webmention endpoint.
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Zegnat But now I really need to head out :( Let me know if you find the Webmention problem later gRegorLove! Happy to fix if it is on my end, of course!
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aaronparecki.com edited /checkin (-1) "/* Publish */ u-checkin based on dominant markup in indieweb examples" (view diff)
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sebsel I believe the idea was that .p-location can be a property of a post, even if it's not a checkin. See geo-tagged tweets, for example. So that's why there is a .u-checkin, often with embedded .h-card of the venue.
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sebsel I can't find that on /checkin though.
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aaronpk on the microformats h-entry page there is also some discussion about checkins
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snarfed repeating a PSA from over the (US) holiday weekend: granary has moved from https://granary-demo.appspot.com/ to https://granary.io/ ! please update your apps, rel links, feed urls, etc.
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GWG snarfed, I narrowly missed you earlier
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snarfed ...ok!
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GWG snarfed, checking before asking again
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snarfed ?
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GWG Snarfed, you originally asked for the cite in Semantic Linkbacks, the one that says 'via'
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snarfed sure!
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GWG Am I recalling correctly?
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snarfed probably
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GWG I just sent in a PR to move it by default next to the name. Wanted your thoughts.
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snarfed huh, interesting. link? screenshot?
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GWG snarfed, https://tiny.n9n.us/2015/06/10/the-western-wall/#comments
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Loqi [Suzan Dincer Canca] Hope you are enjoying your trip David.
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GWG Here is a copy of a post from my site with the new code.
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[snarfed] cool, lgtm!
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[snarfed] consider making the @ text configurable or filtered. eg I'd still prefer it to be "via"
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gRegorLove Ooh, thanks for the PSA [snarfed]. I missed that.
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grantcodes__ aaronpk: I seem to only be getting 500 errors from monocle now?
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GWG snarfed, that is going to be my next PR
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sknebel [miklb]: sorry for running off in the middle of talk, got called to dinner
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[miklb] that’s ok. I derailed it conflating objective & subjective takes by an individual versus a community stance.
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sknebel tantek: that at least people that are around for longer here know the microformats vs schema arguments (and if we fundamentally disagreed, we likely wouldn't talk about it here at all), so it IMHO doesn't help the discussions if you jump in (what feels like) just because someone said "schema". single line pointing out that it doesn't look like they are doing much with all the properties they suggest would have been a good point,
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sknebel IMHO no need to open the larger can of worms again
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tantek sknebel: that's a good point. need a URL to point to for the larger cans of worms
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aaronpk grantcodes: whoops i'll check it out
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aaronpk that's what I get for trying to code from the couch while sick
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aaronpk should be fixed now
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grantcodes__ Great thanks aaronpk, Might be able to get a functional demo of together up today!
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aaronpk ooo
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grantcodes__ Only thing I've noticed missing from the spec is deleting channels.
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aaronpk ah yeah
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aaronpk I don't think I even made a UI for that yet
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grantcodes__ Nope, I only know because I made a bunch of test channels :P
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tantek feel better aaronpk. I think there's some nasty colds going around. felt some sniffles / heavy head this past weekend myself
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tantek with 140 more chars in POSSE tweets, I feel I need to re-evaluate my POSSE equivalents for event posts
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tantek I'm looking at my UI saying "191" chars available and thinking that's a lot to leave unused
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aaronpk thx. i'm not happy about the lack of progress i've made the last 2 days while resting and napping. hopefully I will be able to move forward again soon.
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tantek same. not happy with lack of progress over Thanksgiving weekend when I usually get more done
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GWG I am happy with the stuff I got done.
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GWG Usually of late I am behind
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Zegnat tantek, “I'm looking at my UI saying "191" chars available and thinking that's a lot to leave unused” - but you never had a limit on your website at all, right? Why change your writing after Twitter changes their limit?
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: I think tantek authors his notes and ther posts to be directly POSSE-able to Twitter
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KartikPrabhu *other
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tantek Zegnat, that 191 chars available is for the abbreviated / reformatted POSSE copy, not the original post on my site (where I write whatever I want :) )
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Zegnat Aah, sorry, misunderstood! I thought you were looking at the count and thinking you should be writing longer notes
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tantek my posting UI automatically creates a shorter version for Twitter POSSEing
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Zegnat You have to be careful with that if you use unicode characters, as we found out together with snarfed
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Zegnat tantek, in case you haden’t seen yet, Twitter isn’t doing a character count, but a weighted glyph count: https://github.com/kylewm/brevity/pull/9
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Loqi [snarfed] #9 update for twitter's new weighted char counting and 280 char limit
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Zegnat Oh, apparently it was your bridgy publish that triggered the fix, https://github.com/kylewm/brevity/issues/8
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Loqi [snarfed] #8 Recent Twitter char counting changes ?
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snarfed ??
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Zegnat snarfed++ for fixing it nomatter his own personal thoughts on the matter ;)
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Loqi snarfed has 23 karma in this channel (324 overall)
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Zegnat Aah, new JS statistics: https://mjtsai.com/blog/2017/11/27/the-cost-of-javascript/
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Zegnat Takes only 4 seconds for CNN’s website to start reacting to touch on an iPhone.
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aaronpk when did 4 seconds become acceptable?
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aaronpk I feel like we used to measure these times in milliseconds
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aaronpk like people were worrying about the difference between 150ms and 250ms
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tantek can't remember the last time I bothered going to CNN's website
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Zegnat Sounds like people are worrying about the milliseconds on desktop, but have forsaken mobile?
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tantek whereas on mobile is when you are more impatient, trying to accomplish a realtime task
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Zegnat Not a positive change in any way :(
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tantek people abandon such sites, Google has perf / latency data on this
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sknebel (and iPhones are going to be faster than a lot of other phones)
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tantek this is an area that indieweb can outdo other sites
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Zegnat this is an area where any site can outdo other sites ;) Just build a functioning site without JS, then enhance.
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aaronpk Zegnat++ lol
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Loqi zegnat has 39 karma in this channel (153 overall)
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grantcodes__ Oh aaronpk another random microsub question: Why is https://indieweb.org/Microsub-spec#Search a POST request and not a GET?
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aaronpk not really sure, guess that does make more sense as a GET
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jjuran Reminder that http://lite.cnn.io/en exists
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gRegorLove Github question: is it possible to "Watch" a specific repo without getting email notifications? Seems I can only find global notification settings. I want to turn off emails for just a specific repo.
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ben_thatmustbeme not that i know of
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snarfed gRegorLove: sadly no
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snarfed what do you want from watching besides email notifs though?
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gRegorLove I guess I can do "Not Watching" and get notifications for stuff I'm participating in.
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gRegorLove With this repo, I'd rather just check on the site periodically. I "mark all as read" pretty regularly anyway.
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gRegorLove So "Not Watching" probably makes more sense.
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tantek What is CNN
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Loqi CNN is a news publishing website that has a text-only version http://lite.cnn.io/en https://indieweb.org/CNN
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gRegorLove Hah
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tantek I believe jjuran pointed it out last time and we logged it there
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aaronpk I think that's what the Star feature is for
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sknebel with stars you can't get notifications about what is new though
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@frankmeeuwsen [Mijn #IndieWeb reisverslag...] Hoe werken Webmentions? http://diggingthedigital.com/webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/935265770556280833)
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gregorlove.com edited /throwback (+599) "+IndieWeb Examples section" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /tag-reply (+662) "Bridgy Backfeed plain text tags from Flickr feature request, also some thoughts about IG person-tag backfeed" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /tag-reply (+131) "/* Instagram backfeed */ related bridgy feature request" (view diff)
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snarfed re other users' flickr tags, i guess they'd be in https://www.flickr.com/services/api/flickr.photos.getInfo.html , but not sure
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tantek thanks for the digging snarfed
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tantek I'm not sure either, I need to try experimenting with posts first
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tantek I suppose the way to do that is to try writing tag-of responses to some of aaronpk's posts
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tantek checks his itches
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tantek finds https://indieweb.org/Falcon#one-off_person-tag_response_to_photo
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snarfed tantek: when someone else tags your photo, does it show up immediately? or is it pending until you approve it?
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tantek on Flickr it shows up immediately
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snarfed ok then that api method will include it
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tantek.com edited /tag-reply (+212) "Flickr tags from others show up immediately" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+336) "reprioritize one-off person-tag response to photo and improve replies details, consider using XRay at post publish time to statically snapshot reply-context information and save in storage" (view diff)
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tantek itches / working on reprioritzed accordingly
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tantek getting lots of 500s from GitHub rn
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tantek anyone else?
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[miklb] they are reporting errors
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[miklb] https://twitter.com/githubstatus/status/935296653401247744
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@githubstatus We are investigating reports of elevated error rates. (twitter.com/_/status/935296653401247744)
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tantek thanks [miklb]