#dev 2017-12-22

2017-12-22 UTC
snarfed, renem, [xavierroy], tomasparks, [miklb] and krup joined the channel
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GWG
snarfed: I think I'll take a break now.
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snarfed
GWG: lol, sure
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snarfed
actually #90 is almost ready to merge if you want
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GWG
snarfed: Almost?
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snarfed
GWG: yup! the tests need to be refactored a bit, see github
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snarfed
(too much duplication)
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GWG
snarfed: I like the second option.
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GWG
snarfed: So I did it
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snarfed
GWG: hey, great, thanks! mind squashing? i'll merge then
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GWG
snarfed: Done
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snarfed
woo, thanks! merged
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GWG
snarfed: I took the liberty of rebasing the other two PRs while I was sitting here.
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snarfed
GWG: #89 is almost there too, just one last thing
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GWG
snarfed: Fixed
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GWG
snarfed: I feel like I'm on a roll here.
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snarfed
GWG: you are!
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GWG
snarfed: Should I let it ride?
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snarfed
i'm looking at #91. overall sounds good, thanks for doing it. out of curiosity though...changing the constant to a filter seems like overkill. let's maybe just change the constant to store the string post type?
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GWG
snarfed: I really wanted to change it to an option, to be honest, but I'm not ready to write settings code right now, till I write it for all settings.
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snarfed
right! i'm all for that. just not sure a filter adds any value beyond the constant
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snarfed
people can already use the before_micropub filter to change it dynamically if they way
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GWG
I might have a compromise. Change it to an option, just have no settings page yet.
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snarfed
er want
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snarfed
sure. maybe a separate PR though
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snarfed
that's my only main complaint with #91
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GWG
snarfed: I think I can fix that with 5 lines.
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GWG
snarfed: There you are.
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snarfed
GWG: thanks! i assume wordpress options can be drop-downs? it should probably be that instead of a raw text field.
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GWG
snarfed: The drop-downs would be when you create the option in the interface. You can't register a dropdown. You'll have to wait for the Fields API for that. May be a long wait. It's been discussed for 3 years.
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GWG
Options can only be string, boolean, integer, or number.
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snarfed
ohh right, settings and UI options are separate things. got it. ok.
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GWG
snarfed: I do have a discussion that is general, and not Micropub related.
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GWG
And Micropub related, not WordPress related, excuse me
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GWG
According to the Micropub spec, if the server doesn't recognize a property, it should ignore it.
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GWG
So, what if it recognizes the property, but not what it is set to?
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GWG
In my opinion, it should still ignore it.
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GWG
On the other hand, thinking about Post Status specifically(sorry, thought this was worth putting out to more people), it is representing an intent about the possible visibility of the post, which could have privacy implications. So, maybe rejection is a good thing.
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snarfed
even simpler than that: it's not unknown input, it's invalid input, which is an error
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GWG
snarfed: Just thought that would benefit from public discussion.
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GWG
But I think I get the point there
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GWG
Especially since maybe that should be added to the experimental wiki page for Micropub
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snarfed
also: the spec is talking about unknown *properties*. this is an unknown *value*. different.
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GWG
Will adjust
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snarfed
thanks!
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GWG
snarfed: When I think I'm done for a bit, I'm going to ask you to push 1.3 to stable. Still not done though. I think I can handle #72, #81, maybe #24 and #62.
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snarfed
GWG: i don't see the visibility micropub property in the spec. is it an extension?
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GWG
Both post status and visibility are
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snarfed
ok. we need to think through how the two interact better
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GWG
Well, it seems consistent with the description
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GWG
Alternatively, I could just pull visibility entirely as no one implements it, not even Quill
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snarfed
i'm fine with implementing it, i just think you should actually map it to wordpress's visibility, not post status
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snarfed
(so that e.g. private + draft actually sets the wordpress post to private + draft, not private + published)
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GWG
snarfed, oddly visibility isn't a field.
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GWG
Despite the fact it appears in the editor
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snarfed
GWG: ah, you're right, it's just UI
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GWG
Things always end up deceptively complex
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GWG
snarfed, I think I will rewrite to just support post status for now and wait for a client to offer visibility.
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GWG
I think that should solve it for now.
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snarfed
GWG: i'm fine with merging it in this PR, but up to you!
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GWG
snarfed, will defer to you then.
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GWG
Maybe supporting it will convince a client to.
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snarfed
k i'm done for the night. thanks again for all your work!
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GWG
It goes both ways
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GWG
Night
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@steveivy
So, #indieweb, are webmentions actually happening? How's adoption?
(twitter.com/_/status/944206084784275458)
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KartikPrabhu
how do we even answer "how's adoption?" for indieweb stuff?
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Loqi
Indie Map is a public IndieWeb social graph and dataset. 2300 sites, 5.7M pages, 380GB HTML + mf2. Social graph API and interactive ma...
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KartikPrabhu
I don't know if that answers webmention specifically?
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sknebel
it can answer "has a webmention endpoint declared" at least
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sknebel
install numbers of plugins might be iteresting as well
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sknebel
although neither monitors how it is used
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schmarty1
what is DiSo?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "DiSo" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "DiSo is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Loqi
[gRegor Morrill] I was mid-conversation with someone yesterday when I noticed their profile name changed to a first name. This is a dangerous thing to spring on your users without warning them first, @okcupid. https://twitter.com/roseveleth/status/944239073752907...
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jjuran
I hope they at least have the decency to make this strictly opt-in, hiding or disabling profiles otherwise.
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jjuran
I should probably just delete my account already. I haven’t gone there in years.
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gRegorLove
jjuran: Doubtful. I witnessed it in action yesterday.
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aaronpk
I just signed in to delete my account and it made me set my name before it would let me in
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gRegorLove
Well I was already considering switching my domain registration away from Domain Monster, and now that their update payment form won't let me change my credit card, guess that's the final nudge I need. :)
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gRegorLove
No option to edit my card on record. Gives an error if I add the same card with the new expiration date.
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jjuran
aaronpk: Same here.
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jjuran
Apparently, all my saved messages and bookmarks from years ago are gone.
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jjuran
I mean to write a scraper to salvage them, but never got around to it.
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@schnarfed
@steveivy not bad! easily >1M successfully sent, to probably >3K unique domains and dozens of implementations. https://brid.gy/ alone has sent almost 1M to >2K domains. details on the home page and https://snarfed.org/2016-06-06_bridgy-stats-update-2 (18 mos old; i plan to update soon).
(twitter.com/_/status/944271047372574720)
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sknebel
interesting that indiemap showed <1k sites with rel=webmention if I saw correctly then
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dgold
re that OKcupid thing - wow. that's a level of priggish pigheadedness that manages to astonish
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[manton]
Following up on the session from IndieWebCamp Austin, I've written up a draft that tries to map the basic MetaWeblog API endpoints to Micropub. If this looks like the right path, we'll need to update the Micropub-extensions page too. https://gist.github.com/manton/c17d63c196bbf5ad22c074d88680e772
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aaronpk
ooh awesome, will look
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[manton]
Thanks. I expect I overlooked a couple things, but hopefully it's a start. I've passed it on to Daniel Jalkut too.
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aaronpk
looks like the edit example isn't quite right
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aaronpk
related to that, do you have a sense of whether the app developers would want to use JSON POST requests for creating and editing? (it makes it more consistent with the GET requests that way)
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aaronpk
also you may have unintentionally proposed a simpler edit syntax as well 😂
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GWG
Afternoon
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aaronpk
if that *was* intentional, then that's worth adding to brainstorming
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GWG
aaronpk, when you have a moment, I wanted to talk to you about Quill
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[manton]
Oh whoops, I didn't intentionally change it.
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GWG
Namely the Post Status implementation
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aaronpk
[manton]: i'll made some edits to this gist and you can see the diffs
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GWG
Oh, hi [manton]
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[manton]
Great, thank you.
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GWG
Develpi
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[manton]
I don't actually see where in the Micropub spec it tells how to edit a post.
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GWG
Developing anything exciting?
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[manton]
Is it something like action=edit?
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aaronpk
it's called Update in the spec, not edit https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/#update
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[manton]
Ah, that's why I missed it. Thanks. Skimmed too quickly.
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GWG
Scrolling up to read continuation of IWC Austin talk
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[manton]
As for the question about preferring JSON... I don't know. I really like the simplicity of posting without JSON. But you're right that it's not consistent if you're using JSON some places (for responses) and not others. Kind of wish there was only one way to do things, but again, I like the simple examples.
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aaronpk
give me a sec and you can review this
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[manton]
Thanks.
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[manton]
Great, I'll pull these changes in. (Is there a pull request in gists, or should I just copy it?)
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aaronpk
I don't see a pull request button so I guess you can just copypaste it
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[manton]
Copied.
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+641) "/* Brainstorming */ simpler update"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
it's definitely limited, but that might be okay
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aaronpk
[manton]: in case you were wondering about the "mp-categories"->"categories" change, it's because the "mp-" prefix should only be used when it's providing an instruction to the micropub endpoint vs actually setting a property of the post
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dgold
ah! that makes sense now
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dgold
I'd been wondering aboutthat when doing the .rocks tests
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GWG
aaronpk, you added visibility to experimental micropub properties, but didn't implement it, is that right?
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aaronpk
mp-slug => requesting that the server use the slug, but the server can ultimately decide to change it (to make it unique) or ignore the request
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aaronpk
GWG: I have visibility implemented in my server right now, but I don't have any clients that support it
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dgold
aaronpk: can I ask - I've been doing some work on reply-to and bookmark/likes
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dgold
just how much 'metadata' do you have per-post on your likes/replies?
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GWG
aaronpk, what comes first, client or server support?
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aaronpk
dgold: it's interesting that you're grouping likes and replies in that question. they are quite different.
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GWG
Or should either implement it and wait for the other?
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aaronpk
replies are a first class citizen in my site just like my notes
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GWG
I never understood that
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dgold
aaronpk: oh, I've come to know them as _very_ different kettles of fish
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aaronpk
really everything in my site is a post, with a common set of properties mostly defined by h-entry
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aaronpk
so every post has a published date, a location (where I am when I posted it), a channel (like wordpress category)
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dgold
currently on my devsite, I've got so many properties on my posts that its not even funny
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dgold
thanks, and a reply-to? :-)
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aaronpk
basically the same except the in-reply-to URL is expanded in the storage
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dgold
yeah, that's pretty much where I am, except in json
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dgold
i'm finding it harder and harder to keep using Hugo -- its just not written with indieweb concepts in mind
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aaronpk
that's too bad
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sknebel
where does it get in your way? (that'd be a great blogpost as well - been bugging people to write about their decisions/finding in that area more)
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gRegorLove
OKC accepted gRegorLove as my first name. No change for me. :)
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dgold
sknebel: failing at nested metadata|frontmatter
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GWG
I am still trying to figure this out. Do you build support into the server and wait for the client to support it or wait for the client to add a feature before building it into the server? Or both?
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aaronpk
gRegorLove: of course the irony of this being that you set your first name to something unique and googleable ;-)
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gRegorLove
Yeah, I thought about it in advance. I'm not worried, personally.
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aaronpk
GWG: it's both, and also the willingness to iterate quickly in the early stages of the spec
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sknebel
GWG: whatever you are working on currently
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GWG
aaronpk, what do you think about a query to determine what post status types a server supports?
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aaronpk
GWG: didn't this come up a few days/weeks ago?
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GWG
Did it?
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GWG
I just thought about it last night
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GWG
When I was pestering snarfed with Micropub PRs
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GWG
Good pestering
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aaronpk
oh nvm I was thinking about the /read posts
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GWG
aaronpk, I am on a Micropub kick
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aaronpk
well the downside to having the server return the list of supported types is it means those names lose meaning to the client. so you lose the ability for the client to know "value X means private" and it becomes just a pass-through value to display to the user.
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aaronpk
kind of like how clients don't have any understanding of the fact that one syndication target means twitter and another means facebook
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GWG
aaronpk, good point
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aaronpk
it's not necessarily bad, but it's something to keep in mind
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GWG
aaronpk, I just think about WordPress and its custom post status debate
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[kevinmarks]
Hm, a reply to via quill with a photo didn't make it to known
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[kevinmarks]
Then when I edit the body the title doesn't show on the post I'm replying to.
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gRegorLove
chrisaldrich: When you reply in Known, is it a bookmarklet or did you paste in my URL? E.g. http://stream.boffosocko.com/2017/ha-gregor-very-funnyoddly-my-install-doesnt-know-how-to
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Loqi
[Chris Aldrich] Ha gRegor! Very funny! Oddly my install doesn't know how to process wementions to that particular (pseudo or archive) URL, so I didn't get the webmention somehow (or it's hiding really well). Perhaps better to have used a homepage wm instead? I ...
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gRegorLove
I was having trouble processing your webmention, ended up being the trailing slash for my URL is missing, so was curious if it was manual entry or something else.
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gRegorLove
Makes me wonder if I should turn off trailing slash for post permalinks, too.
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aaronpk
which slash is missing?
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Loqi
[Chris Aldrich] Ha gRegor! Very funny! Oddly my install doesn't know how to process wementions to that particular (pseudo or archive) URL, so I didn't get the webmention somehow (or it's hiding really well). Perhaps better to have used a homepage wm instead? I ...
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aaronpk
ah so it is
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gRegorLove
My site redirects it to have the trailing slash, but the webmention processing is only looking for the trailing slash version
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aaronpk
you can resolve that on your side
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aaronpk
you can verify the webmention without any redirect resolving, as long as chris' site sends the exact string that's in his page as the target URL
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aaronpk
when you want to associate it with your post, you should run the same logic that your web server uses to serve the URL to find the actual post under it
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gRegorLove
Hmm, now I'm confused. His webmention sent target=https://gregorlove.com/2017/12/poked-chris-aldrich/ so that part is right.
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Loqi
[gRegor Morrill] Poked: Chris Aldrich
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gRegorLove
Wait, maybe not.
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aaronpk
for me, this means looking up the canonical URL of a post for whatever variations will redirect to it, e.g. my slugs are completely optional so you can send a target with whatever slug you want and it'll work
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gRegorLove
Ok, no, his wm target didn't have the trailing slash.
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gRegorLove
Yeah, the issue seems to be I do redirect resolving on the target URL first, then check for that in the source. Should be easy to fix.
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