#dev 2018-01-03

2018-01-03 UTC
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readwriterespond.com edited /multi-site_indieweb (+331) (view diff)
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[eddie] Uh oh, my micropub posts have been randomly failing 😞 Ever since I introduced my weather module… I think I must not be handling weather API failures well 😞
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[eddie] Good news I dump every micropub request to a log file immediately upon receiving it, so I still have all the data available, I’ll just have to manually repush some of the data through my micropub endpoint
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[eddie] logs++
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Loqi logs has 1 karma in this channel (3 overall)
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gregorlove.com edited /multi-site_indieweb (+195) "/* Indieweb Examples */ subheadings" (view diff)
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aaronpk [eddie]: hehe I had some similar glitches as well
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AngeloGladding hey guys have a question -- can you use Micropub to create a draft of a post?
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AngeloGladding or some existing mechanism to seed a post but not actually create it
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GWG AngeloGladding: If your client and server supports it, yes
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AngeloGladding GWG is there a specification of this flow? Any prior art?
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GWG There is
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GWG https://indieweb.org/Micropub-extensions#Post_Status
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@pypi_updates2 django-webmention 0.1.0: A pluggable implementation of webmention for Django projects. http://bit.ly/2CsUKkF (twitter.com/_/status/948382161308143621)
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AngeloGladding GWG thanks. Can't figure out how to approach the idea of letting Alice click a bookmark button on an article on Bob's site and have Alice redirected to a pre-filled "Create bookmark" UI on her own site. Bob's site shouldn't have or need `create` scope nor can he have the option of leaving out `post-status=draft`.
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GWG Isn't Bob's site acting as a client in this scenario?
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GWG I've never tried to implement what you are suggesting, but why not have a scope that only allows drafts to be posted?
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GWG If you want to check all posts?
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AngeloGladding Bob's site is the client and yeah a draft scope sounds good!
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AngeloGladding thanks
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gRegorLove aaronpk, when you get a chance, could you review / deploy https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/pull/64 ?
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Loqi [gRegorLove] #64 Add /rel-me-check URL that returns more detailed information
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@easyaspython #webmention is a @w3c recommendation protocol for blogging sites to directly notify each other of cross linking. (twitter.com/_/status/948390713976377344)
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@easyaspython Just released a new version of django-webmention (==0.1.0) with support for Django 1.10+ and Django 2.0+. Please fo… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948390712508342272 (twitter.com/_/status/948390712508342272)
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Ruxton ^-- So i wrote a script that steps through Indieweb sites hunting down images and creating a best-nine. The major issue is people are either not using rel="next" or in the case of Known, it's implemented backwards (prev is actually next)
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Ruxton woooah mad scroll back WOOPS :P
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KartikPrabhu Ruxton: rel-prev and rel-next do not have any implications of chronology
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KartikPrabhu so they can be used either way
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Ruxton KartikPrabhu: actually incorrect, HTML5 takes from HTML4.0.1 spec and defines how they should work
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Ruxton https://www.w3.org/TR/html401/types.html#type-links
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KartikPrabhu Ruxton: yes, no mention of chronology there
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KartikPrabhu only "next document in a linear sequence of documents"
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KartikPrabhu does not specify that the sequence is time-ordered
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Ruxton well, if your homepage is the first page
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Ruxton how is there a previous page?
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KartikPrabhu homepage need not be "first" in the time-ordered sense
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Ruxton "A document with no previous sibling is the start of its sequence, a document with no next sibling is the end of its sequence."
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KartikPrabhu usually blogs have reverse-chronology so homepage would be last
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Ruxton so Known fails the implementation by provided both next and prev on the homepage
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Ruxton prev, being the current page
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Ruxton err next being the current page even
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Ruxton so, if I look for next and it exists, you drill down, if you look for next and it doesn't exist, you switch to prev and drill back, you can't do that with Known.
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KartikPrabhu my homepage has no rel-prev or next too
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KartikPrabhu in any case, I am not sure prev and next imply chronology. and I haven't seen any spec that says they imply chronology
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Ruxton you're correct, they imply document sequence, if you want to implement chronology backwards, then providing a "next" on the homepage breaks that
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KartikPrabhu no, it is next in the rev-chronology order
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KartikPrabhu I wrote a whole rant about this https://kartikprabhu.com/articles/webs-arrow-time
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Loqi [Kartik Prabhu] The Web’s Arrow of Time
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Ruxton https://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#sequential-link-types
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KartikPrabhu because the spec is vague on this, different sites implement it in different ways
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Ruxton the spec is not vague
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Ruxton it litereally covers both basis
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Ruxton *bases
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Ruxton the spec is "documents in sequence"
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Ruxton "A document with no previous sibling is the start of its sequence"
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KartikPrabhu Ruxton: still does not imply chronological sequence
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aaronpk In a reverse chronological sequence i would assume the first page I see is the last page in the sequence so rel=prev would give me the "next" page in the reverse chronological ordering
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Ruxton " a document with no next sibling is the end of its sequence."
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: exactly
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Ruxton regardless of presumption, the code only needs to implement what I wrote above just now and presumption isnt needed
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KartikPrabhu Ruxton: you haven't specified any ordering to your sequence so it is ambiguous
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aaronpk In any case providing a next or prev link pointing to the same page seems wrong
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yes that does make sense
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aaronpk If Known is doing that then I'd say that specifically is the bug rather than trying to imply anything about time order
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KartikPrabhu ok maybe I got confused about the two issues
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aaronpk Regardless of time ordering, you should be able to determine whether a page is the start or end of the sequence based on the presence of a next or prev link
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@cswordpress @bibliata First, you'll want to make sure your website can send and receive webmentions. Start by installing the In… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948440647639367680 (twitter.com/_/status/948440647639367680)
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tantek.com edited /POSSE_to_Facebook (+220) "add Using a CMS to main How section to hopefully help WordPress use-case discoverability" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /Bridgy_Publish_plugin (+248) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /Bridgy_Publish_plugin (+2) "linkify ('… is <url>' pattern)" (view diff)
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Zegnat tantek can you explain the 99% to me you mention here? https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=43775&oldid=39752&rcid=43679 Are you saying 99% of people is uninterested in using Micropub clients like Quill and Omnibear, or other tools like the Webmention-sender Telegraph?
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tantek 99% of users on the wiki had no need to do anything but simple rel=me setup
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tantek don't make that any harder for them
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tantek adding steps to user setup is usually a way to lose users and have a more failure prone system
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tantek we already saw this with openid then openid2 etc. which went from 2 <link> tags then to 4 just to do openid delegation
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tantek this is a known usability error (adding more steps)
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Zegnat But that’s wiki users. And the wiki doesn’t claim to use IndieAuth for login. The page should, IMHO, be about using IndieAuth
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tantek so stop adding more steps
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tantek no, part of "using IndieAuth" should be it "just works" even if you *only* setup rel=me
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tantek if that's not the case then IndieAuth providers need fixing so that it is
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tantek not steps for users
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Zegnat That is untrue for both IndieAuth per spec and IndieAuth in practice
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tantek (people would get openid link tags wrong all the time because it just required 2 steps instead of 1)
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tantek (then they made it worse)
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tantek no IndieAuth in practice is what 99% of users do which is login to the wiki
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tantek that's the point
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tantek so the spec should be fixed to make the simple user model reliable
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tantek otherwise the spec is broken
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tantek the burden should be on provider devs, not millions of users
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Zegnat No. My point is the wiki has *never* referred to its login as IndieAuth. Quill and Telegraph are examples of websites that have always referred to IndieAuth. Those last two *require* the extra link.
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tantek then they are broken
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tantek just as openid was
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tantek in asking for an extra step
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Zegnat You probably need to open an issue against the IndieAuth spec then
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tantek too late for me, maybe tomorrow if someone else doesn't do it first
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tantek focusing on higher priority posts first before going to sleep
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Zegnat Basically nowhere that advertises IndieAuth that I use (Telegraph, Quill, Omnibear) will let me use RelMeAuth.
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Zegnat Only the wiki does, but then again, the wiki *never* claimed to use IndieAuth, it always referred to its login as /Web_sign-in and mentioned IndieAuth as an *alternative*: https://indieweb.org/File:indieweblogin.png
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Zegnat But I can spin this off into an issue for discussion in a bit :) Will mention you so you’ll find it in your GitHub notifications when you have time
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tantek Zegnat: "wiki *never* claimed to use IndieAuth" is false or at best obstinately misleading / narrow interpreting a particular view of the IndieAuth naming debacle (.net service vs protocols etc.)
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tantek #1 step in the How To for IndieAuth has been to use rel=me for *ages* https://indieweb.org/IndieAuth#How_to
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tantek " Add a link on your home page to your various social profiles with the attribute rel="me""
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tantek even if you click through to "full setup instructions" to https://indieauth.com/setup
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tantek again first thing is
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tantek "1. Link to your various social profiles on your home page"
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tantek so yes we have taught people that "IndieAuth" means setup your rel=me and it will "just work"
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tantek for *years*
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tantek basically since IndieAuth replaced OpenID on the wiki etc.
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tantek so since the beginning of IndieAuth
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tantek that's a historical fact and you (nor anyone) gets to change that
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Zegnat Yeah, I’ll make sure to link to older wiki pages in the GitHub issue. At some point IndieAuth was changed from being “an implementation of Web sign-in/RelMeAuth with an HTTP API” to being “an identity layer on top of OAuth 2.0” (from spec).
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tantek I'm not linking to older wiki pages above in my citations ^^^ those are the current instructions
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Zegnat Those are current instructions under the specific header for using IndieAuth.com, and also incomplete instructions per IndieAuth spec.
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Zegnat The whole discussion is about how those instructions are outdated with the new spec. So I am saying change the instructions, and you are saying change the spec.
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Zegnat Both are fine solutions IMHO.
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tantek if the current spec forces every user to add a second item of configuration then it is broken from a usability perspective and very much not fine
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tantek we don't need to repeat that fragile mistake of openid 1
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Zegnat I am just not sure how you would codify the fallback if no auth-endpoint it linked into the spec, without discouraging implementers.
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tantek fallback
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Zegnat s/it/is/
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Zegnat Fallback to what though?
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tantek to relmeauth
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tantek discouraging implementers is nearly irrelevant compared to making things fragile for users
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tantek orders of magnitude difference
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Zegnat I don’t agree there. If you start a spec as something almost nobody wants to implement it is irrelevant how easy it is for users. You are not going to see adoption.
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tantek if you start a spec without an implementation first or at least a prototype you are pursuing an aspirational spec and it's likely to fail regardless
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tantek that does not apply to the current situation
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tantek we spec'd both relmeauth and indieauth only *after* we had working implementations that demonstrated implementability
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tantek that's how most specs are built these days
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tantek nearly no one (outside academic / research circles) makes up a spec then hopes for impls
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Zegnat And I am saying the IndieAuth spec is doing just that because it reflects how everyone who says they do IndieAuth has implemented IndieAuth: without RelMeAuth fallback ;)
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tantek no, the first implementation (for the wiki) did relmeauth and that was essential to get adoption
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Zegnat I for one would never have written an IndieAuth implementation if it had to offer a RelMeAuth fallback... the only fallback I can imagine supporting is on mailto:-links, and that’s not useful for most people.
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tantek the others have a fraction of the adoption, that's the point
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tantek go view # of users on the wiki
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tantek it's in special pages
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tantek it's 1000s x more than any of those apps
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Zegnat Yes, I get your point. You are saying that even though IndieAuth spec is used by the wiki to communicate with IndieAuth.com, and this spec does *not* include RelMeAuth, because the IndieAuth.com interface does allow RelMeAuth that should be considered as part of the spec.
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Zegnat ?
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tantek no I am saying in practice IndieAuth means rel=me
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tantek users / wiki / logins etc.
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tantek however you want to count the stats
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tantek by any reasonable maeasure
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tantek the non rel-me uses are <1% noise in comparison currently
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tantek so to use them to justify an argument is very unscientific
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tantek and worse to make life harder for the 99% of rel=me users
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tantek certainly not very empathetic, and self-defeating per the openid example
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Zegnat I’ll open the issue against the spec and link to this chat, do not want to give the impression that I am rephrasing or changing your opinion in the issue itself :) Thanks for the discussion!
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tantek btw another citation for the change in how specs are written, even at W3C: https://www.w3.org/Guide/standards-track/
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tantek Zegnat I think the miscommunication is that you are trying to be strictly logical with your argument, and I am making an argument from the point of view of actual usage
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tantek (measurement vs. plain reasoning)
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Ruxton https://github.com/Ruxton/indieweb-bestnine - has some issues, but mostly works! will continue with it later and chuck it up somewhere as a service
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Loqi [Ruxton] indieweb-bestnine: Scours indieweb websites, in an attempt to find photos and pick the best nine of the month or year.
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tantek Ruxton wow!
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tantek Ruxton++
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Loqi ruxton has 2 karma in this channel (6 overall)
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tantek what is best nine
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Loqi best nine is a popular aggregation and summary post practice on Instagram, supported by services like https://2017bestnine.com/ which only ask you for your username then return a 3x3 grid of your 9 most liked photos https://indieweb.org/best_nine
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tantek best nine << https://github.com/Ruxton/indieweb-bestnine
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Loqi [Ruxton] indieweb-bestnine: Scours indieweb websites, in an attempt to find photos and pick the best nine of the month or year.
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Loqi ok, I added "https://github.com/Ruxton/indieweb-bestnine" to the "See Also" section of /best_nine
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loqi.me edited /best_nine (+46) "tantek added "https://github.com/Ruxton/indieweb-bestnine" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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Ruxton this is my bestnine image made frm my blog with that - https://puu.sh/yTgi4/f8a86c71df.jpg
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Zegnat It also doesn’t help that my mind has already set in the wiki-uses-web-sign-in and micropub-clients-use-indieauth paths, tantek. Which means I have a very hard time treating the wiki as something that uses IndieAuth.
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tantek Zegnat except that the wiki documents itself as using indieauth
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Zegnat But my mind being set that way doesn’t make your argument invalid, which is why I do think this should be discussed in relation to the IndieAuth spec
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Ruxton home time now, peace :P
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tantek so I'm not sure how you set your mind in contradiction to what the wiki has said and taught people for years
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Zegnat Because the login page of the wiki has never told me it was using IndieAuth. The external service used being called IndieAuth has never made me consider the tech as also being called IndieAuth.
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tantek the login page? that's just one part of the login flow which says IndieAuth all over itself
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tantek yes most login UIs don't say what they're using until you start the process. often they just have a "Login" link
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Zegnat Except the IndieWeb wiki login UI specified what it was, a “web sign-in prompt”: https://indieweb.org/File:indieweblogin.png
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Zegnat So that has always stuck with me.
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loqi.me created /report_account (+25) "prompted by tantek and redirect added by tantek" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:facebook-report-what-would-you-like-to-do.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:facebook-report-what-would-you-like-to-do.png"
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vanderven.se martijn uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:facebook-report-what-is-happening.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:facebook-report-what-is-happening.png"
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vanderven.se martijn uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:facebook-report-support-inbox-in-review.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:facebook-report-support-inbox-in-review.png"
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vanderven.se martijn uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:facebook-report-support-inbox-report-reviewed.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:facebook-report-support-inbox-report-reviewed.png"
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vanderven.se martijn uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:facebook-report-support-message.png]]" https://indieweb.org/File:facebook-report-support-message.png"
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vanderven.se martijn edited /report_abuse (+1141) "/* Silo Examples */ Facebook report and review flow." (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn edited /support (+153) "Start silo section, document a usecase for the Facebook support inbox." (view diff)
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Zegnat https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth/issues/12 - filed based on prior chat
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Loqi [Zegnat] #12 Specify RelMeAuth as fallback.
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readwriterespond.com edited /User:Readwriterespond.com (+1841) (view diff)
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@hugoroyd @HerraBRE @smarimc also: https://webmention.herokuapp.com (twitter.com/_/status/948546188596449280)
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@bibliata @cswordpress Yes, I've already done this; but just a question: webmentions refer to the site being mentioned on fac… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948564610172497920 (twitter.com/_/status/948564610172497920)
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[kevinmarks] Doesn't bridgy do that?
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sknebel if I read the discussion correctly, they want those "comment with facebook" widgets, not comments on their facebook posts
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[eddie] !tell Zegnat: Thanks for creating the issue on GitHub. Great place for me to be able to add my thoughts to the discussion 🙂
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat Ah, interesting, thanks for the comments [eddie], Ruxton.
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Loqi Zegnat: [eddie] left you a message 4 minutes ago: Thanks for creating the issue on GitHub. Great place for me to be able to add my thoughts to the discussion 🙂
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Zegnat That definitely needed to be pointed out, though I don’t think that changes anything about my personal feelings against declaring a specific fallback.
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Ruxton welll.. it maybe points out an issue in the spec, in that the idea of authentication, is tied to authorization tokens. Authentication alone doesn't need that stuff
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Ruxton or just that the terminology is easily confused
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aaronpk Oh boy
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aaronpk reading scroll back
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Ruxton haha :)
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Loqi rofl
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[eddie] hahaha
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[eddie] 😆
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Ruxton strap yourself in
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aaronpk I wish I could have called the spec WebAuth because we wouldn’t be having this debate then
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[eddie] hmm, I don't know if the spec name would really have changed the debate 😕
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[eddie] unless I'm missing something important
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aaronpk It would because if the OAuth extension was called something else it wouldn’t be conflated with wiki login
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[eddie] ohhhh gotcha
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sknebel as I just noticed while trying it again it is now less clear on IndieAuth vs RelMeAuth/Indieauth.com than it was before the wiki changes :/
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aaronpk Wait what changes
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sknebel before the login page started on the wiki with explanation and links, now it directly goes to indieauth.com
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sknebel when you added SSO
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sknebel and the text on that page is worse IMO
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aaronpk Oh yeah
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Zegnat Yeah, I realised that too.
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aaronpk Free to send a PR for that text :)
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aaronpk Also that’s going to change to indielogin.com soon
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sknebel I presume that "soon" was the reason nobody touched it last year
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aaronpk Heh
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Zegnat The soon is definitely the reason I halted updating the /IndieAuth wiki page
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aaronpk It’ll same code tho so any text changes on that prompt will still be useful
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[kevinmarks] Don't the "comment with facebook" widgets create comments on a post pointing to the current page though?
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Zegnat I think my main issue with RelMeAuth, as an implementer, is that I need to register my client with every OAuth provider separately. I commend aaronpk for tackling this with indielogin.com, but I just don’t see other people doing the same thing.
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Zegnat I foresee this will cause partial implementations or an indielogin.com monoculture. Both undesirable.
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aaronpk I agree with that
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aaronpk Also the point you mentioned about there not actually being any providers in common between the user and the site they’re logging into necessarily
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aaronpk I want to make a new IndieAuth server just so there are more options than indieauth.com
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Zegnat How do you mean? A second service? A replacement?
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aaronpk A second one that doesn’t do RelMeAuth at all
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aaronpk Either local accounts or proxying to something like google
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Zegnat I’ve been thinking about a local accounts one. Basically selfauth-as-a-service. Then offer 2FA and login history, which is hard to support in an easy to set-up 1 file IndieAuth implementation.
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aaronpk Yeah exactly
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Zegnat Possibly in combination with a token endpoint, so you can also see issued tokens when logged in and revoke them
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Zegnat But that’s a project for after my blog Micropub
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aaronpk That would certainly be nice too
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snarfed i wonder how much work would take to make https://oauth-dropins.appspot.com/ a public indieauth provider
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snarfed guess i'd have to build the token generator, validator, maybe scope checker, new UI. substantial, but straightforward.
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snarfed s/i/we/
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Zegnat token generator isn’t really necessary. People could use https://tokens.indieauth.com/ to start with.
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Zegnat tokens and authentication do not have to be the same service with IndieAuth
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vanderven.se martijn edited /YouTube (+139) "Add link to our YouTube channel." (view diff)
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Zegnat I almost have YouTube playlists parsing into jf2 feeds in my XRay instance :D
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dgold Zegnat: could you write up your xray-instance creation?
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Jetpack (+30) "links; opensource; WordPress template" (view diff)
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Zegnat All you have to do to run XRay is clone the repository. There isn’t a lot of configuration required...
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dgold oh, I thought you meant using it as an api
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Zegnat I am not hosting a public one.
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Zegnat But if you are using XRay (either as library or hosting it as a service) you can just clone my repo’s YouTube branch and do not have to change anything else
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grantcodes Hey aaronpk is there any way of getting a list of subscribed feeds via the microsub api yet? I'm trying to build a settings ui for channels so you can see what you are subscribed to and unsubscribe easily.
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grantcodes Can't see it in the spec at the moment
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aaronpk I thought I implemented that
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/Microsub-spec#Following
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aaronpk yeah monocle should support that
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grantcodes Yeah just remembered it was called following :D
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grantcodes Thanks
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Zegnat Wow. Looks like YouTube playlist API does not include the separate video authors. Just puts the playlist author in there.
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Zegnat So you need to make a separate call for every video in a playlist to get that. And then for every author you find another call to retrieve their actual information.
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Zegnat starts caching
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Bridgy (+178) "Link to Bridgy Publish WordPress plugin" (view diff)
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aaronpk alright, commented on the giant thread
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aaronpk from my website :) thanks silo.pub
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dgold there's a giant thread?
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sknebel dgold: https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth/issues/12
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Loqi [Zegnat] #12 Specify RelMeAuth as fallback.
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Zegnat Oh, I just noticed the login prompt on indieauth.com that is currently used by the wiki has exactly the same text as used to be on the wiki itself :) It calls its own login /Web_sign-in
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Zegnat I guess the only “branding” on the login page is the big IndieAuth.com in the header, which is about the change anyway.
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dgold thanks sknebel
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aaronpk I might need to re prioritize the indieauth.com move over the other stuff I’m doing like Monocle
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[eddie] Nice post, aaronpk. Simple and thorough
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[eddie] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 99 karma in this channel (1522 overall)
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aaronpk Thx
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Zegnat It would be nice to get the authentication stuff closed, aaronpk. That’s for sure.
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@misuba @pfrazee Webmention is an emerging standard (it's one of a few things the SoLiD and IndieWeb teams agree on); I won… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948607948909088768 (twitter.com/_/status/948607948909088768)
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@webrocker boah, die classnames beim wp webmention plugin werden auch schneller gewechselt wie anderswo die unterhosen… jedes… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/948610954706800646 (twitter.com/_/status/948610954706800646)
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grantcodes aaronpk: Another monocle question before it gets deprioritized :P Does the channel delete method work? I just keep getting 500 errors "Whoops, looks like something went wrong."
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aaronpk uhoh
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grantcodes Oh also I think the channel updating is actually creating a new channel and not renaming the existing one.
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@aaronpk @pfrazee @misuba @pfrazee That sounds similar to Vouch, a Webmention extension https://indieweb.org/Vouch Would love your thoughts on that. (twitter.com/_/status/948611731659436032)
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aaronpk are you sending the channel uid in the "channel" parameter like this? https://indieweb.org/Microsub-spec#Update_a_Channel
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grantcodes Like so: "https://monocle.p3k.io/microsub/2?action=channels&name=New+Demo+Channel1&channel=a9KsqZ1gaCmU5tkrcBRQWGpsndqkhyR1"
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aaronpk hopefully as post body params, not query string
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aaronpk that definitely should not create a new channel. i'm looking at the code trying to figure out how it would. I'll try to fix these on the plane.
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grantcodes Hmm that might be it 🤔 other post requests work, so not even checked if that was the problem.
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grantcodes No rush :)
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GWG Is aaronpk holding court?
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Zegnat aaronpk, I like the way you split up fetcher and parser in XRay. I just finished rewriting the fetcher part of my YouTube format. Much easier to now work with the data than with YouTube’s actual API output :D
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aaronpk That made writing the tests possible :-)
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Zegnat Yeah, I should add tests at some point. First want to see if the output is feasible.
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dgold oh, <cry>
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dgold spent last hlaf hour tearing hair out at a persistent error from php
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dgold I had an extra 't' in a variable name
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dgold <headdesk>
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[eddie] Ohhh that's the worst!
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dgold your sympathies are noted, eddie
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dgold turning this frown upside down!
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Zegnat Anyone know of any weird YouTube URL formats?
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[kevinmarks] Apart from youtu.be?
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Zegnat Haha, yeah
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Loqi Zegnat: lol
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Zegnat I just updated my parser to also understand m. links, the mobile ones. Totally missed those the first time
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[kevinmarks] They redirect the country domains to the com
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Zegnat Apparently there used to be some sort of hash-bang Ajax-y URLs too, but haven’t seen those in the wild yet. Same with localised subdomains (language code? country code?).
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Zegnat Oh, right, they also have those. Darn.
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[kevinmarks] I don't think you see them in the wild
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snarfed Zegnat: https://github.com/rg3/youtube-dl/blob/master/youtube_dl/extractor/youtube.py#L329-L365
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Zegnat Clever, I should have checked youtube-dl, thanks for the tip snarfed!
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Zegnat I had just moved away from a crazy regex, and now you point me at one ... :P https://github.com/Zegnat/XRay/blob/youtube/lib/XRay/Formats/YouTube.php#L20-L53
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snarfed /me regrets nothing
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Zegnat Alright, added some more possible URLs. I think this should cover most things. Only need to update the parser to build feeds and we’ll have jf2 YouTube feeds!
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Zegnat (To some extend.)
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[eddie] Wooo!!!!
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-1) "update from /Events" (view diff)
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[tantek] Good discussion on indie auth issue 12 by everyone. Definitely making me rethink both naming and the number of different pieces and what different parties expect each to do
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[tantek] I both like the name “IndieAuth” has been colored by the “makes it easy to login to the indie web wiki” aspect from years of documentation and blog posts etc
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[tantek] OTOH “IndieAuth” as a protocol for authorization using an independent website also makes sense
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[tantek] Also the authn vs authz distinctions made make sense. Which makes me wonder if those should make their way into names?
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[tantek] Eg I think W3C has Webauthn
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[tantek] And if the protocol uses beyond the wiki are primarily or only authz (per the thread) then maybe the “minimal” protocol (that doesn’t include relmeauth) could make that explicit as IndieAuthz?
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[tantek] Then an IndieAuthn (also as a protocol) could otoh be inclusive of RelMeAuth as a fallback to do authentication
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[tantek] These are off the top of my head informal brainstorming thoughts I expect critique/pushback hence not adding it as a concrete comment on the issue
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GWG I have wanted to replace the authentication endpoint in Indieauth with the WordPress login for a while.
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GWG This debate may push that
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GWG snarfed, may I ask a favor due to my deep respect and admiration for you?
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snarfed lol
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GWG I am guessing that is an invitation to elaborate?
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snarfed GWG: #dontaskjustask http://sol.gfxile.net/dontask.html
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GWG I wrote my first unit tests for Indieauth. Once I finish I would like to use the same tests in the Micropub implementation. Would you be able to comment on them? I always need more unit testing feedback.
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snarfed sure!
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GWG I will advise you. Lots more iterations before I am ready to push.
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GWG The client implementation has to be solid so I can use it to test a server implementation if I ever build one.
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[kevinmarks] i really hate authn and authz - we need to switch to more distinguishable words
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aaronpk I like using "login" or "signin" instead of authentication
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tantek depends on who you are trying to appeal to
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tantek developers or users
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tantek aaronpk I agree with those preferences for users
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tantek things like UI, services (domains / URLs) that users sign-up with, or happen to get delegated to
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tantek however the dev / IETF / protocol heads prefer more jargony terms because they feel like jargon = more precision (whether it does or not), and such jargon acts as a shibboleth for those "communities"
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tantek (in this meaning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth )
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tantek what is jargon
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Loqi jargon is a specific unobvious word, concept, or technology (like Webmention), or re-use of a word to mean something other than its common meaning (like feed), or sometimes re-using a word as an acronym (like POSSE) https://indieweb.org/jargon
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gRegorLove Sounds like a good reason to use "login" or "signin" all the time, heh
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gRegorLove outgroups--
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Loqi outgroups has -1 karma
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tantek gRegorLove: not if your goal is developer appeal and adoption. developers love shibboleths because it caters to a sense of inclusion or exclusivity
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tantek it/they
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tantek jargon << [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth shibboleth]
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Loqi ok, I added "[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth shibboleth]" to the "See Also" section of /jargon
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loqi.me edited /jargon (+73) "See Also" (view diff)
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gRegorLove I'm in favor of pushing back against that exclusivity, personally.
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tantek gRegorLove: in general I agree. but if the goal is getting say, IETF acceptance as an RFC, or uptake among the OAuth / websec crowds, then shibboleths essentailly act like good marketing to them
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gRegorLove Makes sense
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tantek that being said, I wonder if there is some optimal level of just-jargony enough to appeal to such crowds, but no more jargony than that
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tantek gRegorLove: btw I'll note this not-sure-if-deliberate-or-ironic usage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shibboleth_(Shibboleth_Consortium)
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gRegorLove Ha!
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gRegorLove https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Shibboleth_(Shibboleth_Consortium)#Readability
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gRegorLove stops going down the rabbit hole
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[kevinmarks] I registered canihaz.me and web-it.me last time we talked about this
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Zegnat Just stopping by on my way to bed, but wanted to comment on: “if the [IndieAuth] protocol uses beyond the wiki are primarily or only authz (per the thread)”. Are they though? As sknebel pointed out in the issue Telegraph’s usage is authn. So is my implementation in Sink. Micropub clients definitely are in it for the authz but there are non-Micropub
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Zegnat IndieAuth implementations out there already.
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Zegnat (sebsel’s implementation may also be authn only, not too sure.)
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Zegnat Should probably put that in the issue and not here. Oh well. Tomorrow.