#dev 2018-01-10

2018-01-10 UTC
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gregorlove.com edited /micro.blog (+108) "/* Indieweb Examples */ +me" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk++ for https://aaronparecki.com/2016/02/20/5/global-webmentions and the reply post POSSEd to Twitter accordingly! https://aaronparecki.com/2018/01/09/20/
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Loqi aaronpk has 103 karma in this channel (1529 overall)
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Enabling Global Webmentions with Telegraph and Superfeedr
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tantek that's a great how to
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gRegorLove !tell manton Where can we file bugs for micro.blog?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk I don't know if there is anything more official, but there is a #bugs channel on the micro.blog slack
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gRegorLove Ah, ok. I'll write a post on my site. Don't feel like joining another Slack just yet :)
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tantek gRegorLove++
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Loqi gregorlove has 40 karma in this channel (207 overall)
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gRegorLove It's just relative URL resolution for images
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gRegorLove !tell manton https://gregorlove.com/2018/01/i-signed-up-for-a/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [gRegor Morrill] I signed up for a https://micro.blog account and added my Atom feed. All went smoothly and I appreciated that it accepted the Atom feed even though the form requested “RSS feed.” The only bug I’ve noticed so far is that images with a relative...
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tantek gRegorLove: did you check to see what the Atom spec says about relative URL resolution?
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gRegorLove Now why would I do that? hehe :)
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gRegorLove Hmm, and it truncated that note itself when it came through.
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aaronpk hm that is weird
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aaronpk it tries to notice whether you're posting a microblog update or a link to your own blog post
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aaronpk so the fact that it says "gregorlove.com" with a link to your post means it didn't think that was a microblog update
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aaronpk why exactly i'm not sure
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gRegorLove Hmm, so the granary Atom has xml:base=https://gregorlove.com/notes/
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gRegorLove But my images are relative to the domain... so maybe that's it.
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gRegorLove tries out Feedly
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tantek I stick xml:base on everything that contains XHTML in my Atom feed: http://tantek.com/updates.atom
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gRegorLove So does granary
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tantek and it's *not* the base of the feed itself, so it's a good test
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gRegorLove digs some more
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gRegorLove Oh, I see what you mean. granary's is only on the <feed>
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[miklb] gRegorLove https://github.com/microdotblog/issues/issues
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gRegorLove Ah, thanks!
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gRegorLove Feedly got the image
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gRegorLove Ah, granary is making a truncated <title> in the Atom
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[kevinmarks] See what unmung.com makes of your feed (turn on the checkbox to see if feedparser thinks you deserve the bozo bit)
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snarfed also let me know if any of this seems like a granary bug
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gRegorLove snarfed, I don't think so, though it does make me wonder if it's possible to set a different xml:base.
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gRegorLove Er, well maybe a granary bug re: <title> but not focusing on that at the moment.
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david.shanske.com edited /Post_Kinds_Plugin (-404) (view diff)
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gRegorLove My images start with a leading slash, so I'd expect it to resolve relative to the domain, not the xml:base. Feedly is doing that.
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieWebCamps (+144) "add subheaders for years" (view diff)
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gRegorLove unmung gets the image as well (7 posts down "throwback...") http://www.unmung.com/feed?feed=https%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2Fnotes.atom&raw=on
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[kevinmarks] Relative urls in feeds are a mess.
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gRegorLove Agreed :)
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snarfed granary intentionally ellipsizes titles at 14 words or 140 chars
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snarfed happy to debate, but right now it's expected
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aaronpk gRegorLove: granary supports jsonfeed so you might try that. at least jsonfeed expects to be able to deal with posts with no title
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aaronpk (micro.blog accepts jsonfeed in addition to rss/atom)
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gRegorLove ooh
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[kevinmarks] https://pythonhosted.org/feedparser/resolving-relative-links.html
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gRegorLove I was skimming that a big ago, [kevinmarks]. Found it linked in another granary issue :)
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aaronpk and then if you find a bug in granary's microformats->jsonfeed conversion you can file a bug ;-)
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aaronpk but microformats->atom/rss is always going to be lossy
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[kevinmarks] In general, markp dealt with your feed issue more than a decade ago and wrote test cases
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gRegorLove Sure. Mostly I'm just testing it out of curiosity.
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[kevinmarks] Well, you can embed the mf2 in the entry html, but you may lose feed level stuff
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[kevinmarks] Atom does define what to do; rss aggressively refuses to do so.
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gRegorLove Ooh, maybe I get to file a granary bug, heh. 400 error: https://granary.io/url?input=html&output=jsonfeed&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2Fnotes%2F
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aaronpk [kevinmarks]: of course you can put whatever html you want in the html, but nothing is going to consume that
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieWebCamps (+123) "stub 2018" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] Experimenting with this dat: stuff is making relative urls important.
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KartikPrabhu what is dat?
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Loqi Dat is a protocol for transferring files peer-to-peer https://indieweb.org/Dat
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snarfed gRegorLove: thanks for finding that granary jsonfeed bug! fixed it, https://granary.io/url?input=html&output=jsonfeed&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2Fnotes%2F works now
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gRegorLove snarfed: thanks! likes don't seem to show an author. Is that by design?
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martymcgui.re edited /User:Martymcgui.re (+734) "/* Personal Site - martymcgui.re */ update itches and former itches" (view diff)
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martymcgui.re edited /User:Martymcgui.re (+136) "/* Itches */ itches for wehavetoask" (view diff)
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snarfed gRegorLove: likes where? got an example?
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gRegorLove snarfed: second item in https://granary.io/url?input=html&output=jsonfeed&url=https%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2Fnotes%2F is a like
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gRegorLove Same p-author h-card as other notes though
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snarfed gRegorLove: ah. jsonfeed says item author defaults to top-level author: https://jsonfeed.org/version/1
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martymcgui.re edited /User:Martymcgui.re (-51) "/* My IndieWeb Setup */ masto no mo' :(" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Looking better with jsonfeed now: https://micro.blog/gRegorLove
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gRegorLove schmarty, writing a novel on mastodon this month?
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schmarty ha! i could have done a MastoWriMo back when I had a working mastodon instance. :}
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gRegorLove Were you running that one?
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schmarty i was. i set it up on a whim to test things against back when aaronpk and snarfed were doing initial research into federating with it, but ended up using it quite a bit.
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schmarty because i didn't expect to keep it around, i used a random docker quickstart.
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schmarty that worked until i upgraded it, which recreated the db and destroyed everything. :}
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schmarty so i studied the docs enough to persist the db and image uploads and started over, refollowed everyone, etc.
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schmarty that worked for several months and upgrades, until docker images filled the disks.
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schmarty i tried to purge the unused docker images, but purged... all the docker images.
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schmarty so i gave up
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gRegorLove doh!
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[miklb] high-fives schmarty
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schmarty it's all good! in the long run i would rather use something like bridgy fed to interact w/ the fediverse, and follow the folks there using an indie reader.
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schmarty woodwind follows mastodon users pretty well.
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schmarty (using the mf2 html feed)
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schmarty thanks, miklb!
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gregorlove.com edited /micro.blog (-43) "/* iOS */ app store link" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-308) "update from /Events" (view diff)
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sknebel [kevinmarks] regarding the packaging proposal, since they want to prove that the document is from the source domain, without the browser contacting it, a signature is what they need IMHO. Also adding non-repudiation to HTTPS along the way if I see this correctly (interesting for archives)
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[eddie] micropub JSON syntax. When sending a micropub request in JSON, do you prefix properties with mp-* or do you embed the mp properties within an mp object? I couldn’t find any clarity on mp properties in JSON syntax in the spec
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Zegnat Both would be acceptable, [eddie].
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[eddie] Oh really? Interesting
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Zegnat Properties get the mp- prefix if they contain data for the Micropub server to handle, and not to store/be-part-of the microformats object. You can make it 100 mp- properties, or just 1 mp- property specific to your server and have a config object inside there.
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Zegnat Though for properties that several server implementations share, they probably expect them as separate properties on the main object. Makes interoperability easier.
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[eddie] ohhh okay. Yeah I’m thinking about mp-syndicate-to
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[eddie] so you would have a json object with { type: [h-entry], properties: {}, mp-syndicate-to [syndicate-url] }
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Zegnat mp-syndicate-to would go inside the properties object, I believe.
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[eddie] oh! interesting
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[eddie] so just type and properties keys on the root level object. Everything else goes into the properties object, any micropub server communication gets the mp- prefix
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[eddie] well that does make things easy
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[eddie] lol
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Zegnat The JSON is just “the parsed Microformats 2 JSON format.” Those don’t have random keys in the outer object.
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[eddie] 💯 Thanks Zegnat 🙂
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[eddie] I’m pretty excited. I build a native MicropubPost object in Swift, and I’m building in a method where you provide either ‘urlencoded’ or ‘json’ as an output value and the MicropubPost object will convert itself into the body content needed to be sent
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dgold mp-syndicate-to is an _instruction_ to syndicate to these places; syndicated-to is for _already_ existing syndics
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dgold oh. hell, I was scrolled back. never mind me, zegnat is righter
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Zegnat Note that not all micropub bodies have valid urlencoded variants, [eddie]. If you have properties with objects in them (e.g. in case of `content: { html:"" }`) you *must* use JSON
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Zegnat See https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/#new-article-with-html
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aaronpk "syndicated-to" isn't a thing, that's just "syndication" at the other end
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[eddie] Zegnat: Thanks! That’s good to know, I can return nil to the function in the event that it can’t be converted to urlencoded
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Zegnat There might be more gotchas, I am not the expert on the Micropub spec, but can’t think of any others right now. Haha
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Loqi Zegnat: lol
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dgold there's that weird guy, hangs around here a lot... writes _great_ documentation!
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sknebel hm, that there is no mp- example with JSON in the spec seems like an oversight. aaronpk, can you still make such purely informative changes, or is that completely process-frozen now?
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aaronpk I think technically we can fix typos, but can't make any other updates to the doc
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aaronpk it would have to be pretty extreme to make a change too because the WG isn't actually active this year
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sknebel feared so
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aaronpk but hey we can always edit the wiki https://indieweb.org/Micropub#Examples_of_Creating_Objects
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aaronpk speaking of which, I should review that whole section
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Zegnat Yeey vHWC and testing new tech, gets one to file issues: https://github.com/keithjgrant/omnibear/issues/52
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Loqi [Zegnat] #52 Chrome Play Store version behind Firefox version, and doesn’t work with Sink
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jeremycherfas.net edited /report_abuse (+428) "/* Instagram */ Reporting account impersonation" (view diff)
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sknebel at least according to apples dev-documentation they'll use wrongly sized favicons if available, and if you don't link any just try the filenames on root
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tantek I wonder if iOS now supports space-separated rel value parsing for the icon
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tantek sknebel++ btw for redirecting the convo here
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Loqi sknebel has 28 karma in this channel (84 overall)
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tantek has anyone tried / depended on rel="icon apple-touch-icon" ?
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tantek I'm tempted
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tantek.com edited /discuss (+73) "note additional channels in dfn" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn created /User:Vanderven.se_martijn/ (+40) "Stealing this from Kaja’s page." (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /micro.blog (+147) "/* Criticism */ requires javascript" (view diff)
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tantek gRegorLove: interesting. I wonder what the reasoning is. perhaps just omission? those pages all could start with an h-feed of posts, and use JS to auto-update
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tantek going to file an issue in the mb gh?
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gRegorLove Looks like it's using handlebars JS templating
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gRegorLove I hadn't planned to
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gregorlove.com edited /picoFeed (+149) "unmaintained, open source" (view diff)
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gRegorLove For variety, maybe I'll still work on picoFeed mf2 support, particularly since aaronpk and Zegnat may be interested.
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aaronpk to be clear, I only use it for parsing legacy feeds. I do the mf2 feed parsing myself in xray
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Zegnat I was interested to start hosting my own rss reader instead of Feedbin. Don't get busy on my behalf.
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jkphl.is uploaded /File:hwcnue-2018-01-10.jpg "Homebrew Website Club Nuremberg https://indieweb.org/File:hwcnue-2018-01-10.jpg"
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gRegorLove Zegnat, ultimately self-hosting a reader was my goal too. I love woodwind.xyz but it's been having issues, understandably, as kylewm isn't available as much to maintain it.
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dgold miniflux is _fine_ as a sync backend
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dgold not much as a reader, and now unmaintained
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gRegorLove Realistically I will probably continue to push it off and keep an eye on the other progress on stuff like Monocle and Together :)
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gRegorLove dgold: Seems maintained, they just switched to Go for 2.x
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gRegorLove Do you use it to sync?
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aaronpk feel free to build other Microsub front-ends to Monocle!
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dgold i like the look of that evergreen thing on mac, but it doesn't have sync yet, and the dev is fixated on using feedbin as a 1st sync basis
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gRegorLove I uh, need to spend some time to wrap my mind around microsub still, haha
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Loqi hehe
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tantek I'd still like to figure out an incremental development path from including integrated reply-contexts in posts on your site to ... an integrated reader on your site
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aaronpk I'm happy to make accounts on Monocle for anyone interested in building on top of it
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gRegorLove What is Monocle?
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Loqi Monocle is an open source IndieWeb-enabled reader developed by Aaron Parecki https://indieweb.org/Monocle
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tantek my sense is that there are useful steps along the way, each of which is both not too hard to implement, and provides actual user benefit when built.
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tantek I still need to validate that sense by improving my own reply-context retrieving / presentation on replies on my site
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tantek s/replies/responses
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gRegorLove So is Monocle now a microsub server?
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek I'm not saying there shouldn't be separate / standalone reader UIs like Woodwind and Monocle, rather that that represents existing (pre-social-media) models / apps, and that a compelling UX (as compared to social media) for gens 2-4 will require integrated /reader UX.
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Zegnat Microsub can't replace Feedbin for me without per item readstate, aaronpk :(
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Loqi *sniff*
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sknebel read-state was still open in Microsub, right?
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sknebel yep https://indieweb.org/Microsub-spec#Tracking_read_state_or_position
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aaronpk yeah i'm still on the fence about it
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aaronpk tracking last read position i'm totally in support of
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aaronpk but per-item, I will have to be convinced
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sknebel I've named the use case why it is crucial for me
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aaronpk it feels like a power user thing, or like treating it like email
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www.svenknebel.de edited /Microsub-spec (+4) "/* Feedback */ word less wishy-washy, since its actually critical for me" (view diff)
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tantek Zegnat: I think I understand the need for per item readstate (some "feeds" I definitely want to make sure I see / read every item?) - could you add what your thoughts are on that to https://indieweb.org/reader#Challenges ?
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tantek happy to help iterate, but I'd like to start with your description of "per item readstate"
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tantek goes to add his "incremental path" thoughts to Brainstorming
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Zegnat I'll look into the Micropub and reader pages when the TV show I'm watching is over.
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tantek.com edited /reader (+1367) "/* Brainstorming */ Incremental development path to an integrated reader UX" (view diff)
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[cleverdevil] likes per-item read-state as well.
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[cleverdevil] Even if it is treating it like email, that's how I like to consume my feeds 🙂
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tantek I'd like to set it per feed
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tantek most stuff I don't mind treating like a stream
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tantek but some things I want per-item
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sknebel yes. most microblogging doesn't make sense to follow per-item. with per-item tracking + bulk-commands in the API the reader can relatively easily offer both
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[cleverdevil] I agree with that.
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[cleverdevil] microblog = stream
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[cleverdevil] other content = not a stream
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[cleverdevil] I suppose that makes it sort of difficult.
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[kevinmarks] There was an apple extension to podcasts that was a bit like that
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[kevinmarks] Episodic versus serial
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bjoern.stierand.org edited /User:Bjoern.stierand.org (+194) "Typo fixes and updates" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] http://www.manton.org/2017/06/apple-podcast-spec-changes.html
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Zegnat I already have some podcast feeds in my reader set to show chronologically rather than rev-chronologically. It is definitely very content dependent
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Zegnat What is microblog?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "microblog" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "microblog is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat What is microblogging?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "microblogging" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "microblogging is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat Hmm
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gRegorLove Odd
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tantek [cleverdevil]: not sure about microblog = stream. I think it depends on the author.
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tantek or could at least
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Zegnat ~5 minutes away from putting my view in the read state discussion on the wiki :)
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tantek 5 minutes until Zegnat puts his view on the read state discussion on the wiki
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2018-01-10 2:01pm PST (#6243)
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[kevinmarks] We have a failed attempt at that in the microformats past
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[kevinmarks] http://microformats.org/wiki/attention
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Loqi attention
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tantek [kevinmarks] I think that's unnecessarily conflating *possible* plumbing (attention.xml) with the UX requirements (what me, Zegnat, sknebel are talking about)
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Loqi Zegnat puts his view on the read state discussion on the wiki
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[kevinmarks] There is an attempted microformats process gathering existing "I've read this" stuff there
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vanderven.se martijn edited /Microsub-spec (+2132) "/* Feedback */ My view on the two types of feeds, why one needs per-item tracking, how it does not compare to emails but to real life magazines, and an anti-pattern I have seen abused." (view diff)
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Zegnat Darn, Loqi’s timer beat me :P
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Zegnat sknebel, do feel free to review my thoughts. They got a little, uh, longer, than yours ;)
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Zegnat I hope the concept I am trying to convey is clear. Concepts are sometimes hard to express in non-native languages, no matter how fluent you think you are.
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www.svenknebel.de edited /Microsub-spec (+90) "/* Tracking read state or position */ Inoreader API uses a special tag for read-status" (view diff)
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aaronpk that's interesting
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sknebel yeah. not sure if a good idea or not, but different
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sknebel (was looking at how similar it is to microsub, since a translator might be interesting for me initially)
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Zegnat Hmm, this feels a lot like describing something like Superfeeder :/ http://inessential.com/2018/01/09/app_idea_mentions
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/2018/01/09/20/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] I'm doing basically this already thanks to @superfeedr doing all the crawling! It translates any mention of my site into a Webmention which I handle like every other Webmention, which sends me a push notification to my phone! https://aaronparecki.com...
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Zegnat Hadn’t read that yet. Woops
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Zegnat Also interesting, Jonathan Snook went and added open graph to his blog. And he spent some time testing and deduping og: and twitter: meta tags: http://snook.ca/archives/html_and_css/open-graph-and-sharing-tags
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Zegnat He also found that Twitter’s parser seems to depend on attribute order in the HTML. Which blows my mind.
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sknebel ugh
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KartikPrabhu depends on attribute order in HTML lol!
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tantek has anyone here implemented use of registerContentHandler on their own site? https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Navigator/registerContentHandler
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tantek this is potentially applicable to the /reader discussions
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tantek e.g.a reader like Woodwind or Monocole *should* be able to use registerContentHandler to register to handle the application/atom+xml and application/rss+xml MIME types, thereby turning every *existing* link to an Atom or RSS feed into a double-opt-in Follow button!
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tantek aaronpk ^^^ thoughts? worth filing a /Monocle issue for ?
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tantek (i.e. would you use it?)
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aaronpk whoa I didn't know about that
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aaronpk so if you visit a link with a registered type it would open it in another web page?
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tantek like how you can register Gmail to handle mailto: links
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tantek (that's the registerProtocolHandler equivalent)
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tantek but the feed: protocol never took off
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aaronpk i guess that would solve the problem of ending up on ugly XML pages when clicking feed buttons
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tantek which is an awful lot of existing links out there
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tantek I mean imagine if we suddenly upgraded all those RSS/Atom links to actually work like confirm-to "Follow" buttons without the sites having to do anything themselves?
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tantek in the reader of your choice? (a reader service like Woodwind, or your own site with its integrated reader!)
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aaronpk that does sound pretty good
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tantek caveat: currently *only* supported in Firefox (and at risk of removal!), HOWEVER, given implemented use-case like that, we could flip that and make it an actual standard that other browsers supported
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tantek.com created /indiestats (+23) "because I keep looking for it here" (view diff)
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[cleverdevil] Whew. Just finished moving my website to AWS.
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[cleverdevil] (A little preview of my job change, LOL).
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[kevinmarks] Is that something you could polyfill with a browser plugin?
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aaronpk oh my
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[cleverdevil] Biggest benefit? I'm using RDS so I no longer have to manage MySQL.
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[cleverdevil] 🎉
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tantek [kevinmarks] likely! pretty sure browser extensions can add to the DOM / handle DOM calls
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tantek what is RDS
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "RDS" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "RDS is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronpk i mean dreamhost also manages mysql for you :P
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tantek more possible use-cases for registerContentHandler:
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[cleverdevil] RDS is Amazon Relational Database Service, a managed relational database service that is part of Amazon Web Services (AWS). RDS provides MySQL, MariaDB, Oracle, and other RDBMS's as a managed cloud service, including automated backups, provisioning, scaling, and more.
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /RDS (+295) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by [cleverdevil]" (view diff)
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leotsem Hi everyone! I've just discovered the micropub format and trying to set this up on my jekyll-based blog but running into a few issues.
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[cleverdevil] That's true, aaronpk, and we do a pretty great job of it 🙂
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[cleverdevil] But, I was using a self-managed MySQL on one of our unmanaged cloud servers.
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aaronpk ah
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leotsem I'm getting a "Could not find your authorization endpoint!" but AFAIC I've setup the appropriate meta-tags etc. I feel like I'm missing something but I'm not sure what :/
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aaronpk leotsem: what's your site? I can take a look real quick
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leotsem theinnerlogic.com
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leotsem @aaronpk https://theinnerlogic.com
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tantek * handle text/calendar to subscribe to Events in your reader
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tantek * handle text/directory to add a vCard to your nicknames cache / online address book
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aaronpk leotsem: cool, and what client are you trying to sign in to?
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leotsem @aaronpk https://ownyourgram.com/ but I've tried others too - so I'm pretty confident there's something wrong on my side
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aaronpk hm, i tried fetching your site with curl from my server and it looks like it's sending a gzip response
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leotsem is this a problem
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leotsem ?
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aaronpk i woudln't have thought so
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[kevinmarks] Will micropub.rocks explain what is awry?
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leotsem not really - just the same error "Could not find your authorization endpoint!"
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aaronpk it's definitely the gzip thing
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aaronpk i thought that http clients normally deal with that
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leotsem so are you suggesting turning off gzip for the micropub auth to work?
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aaronpk hm, even wget returns the gzip data so i am wondering if there' ssomething wrong with the headers it's returning
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aaronpk cause i was pretty sure wget knows how to un-gzip
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leotsem it's all served via AWS CloudFront / S3, so there's nothing really fancy there
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leotsem it does