#dev 2018-02-15

2018-02-15 UTC
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[kevinmarks] in the eu they're legally required to
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[eddie] Regarding read/unread. I really approach different channels differently. So my *hope* is to be able to deal with both in Indigenous. But we’ll see how that goes :crossed_fingers:
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[eddie] But if not, the good news I could just use different Microsub apps for different channels
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[eddie] Since the API supports it all
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[eddie] 🙌
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GWG [kevinmarks]: They are in California, alas.
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GWG I just told a company support rep that their privacy policy said they comply with EU Privacy Frameworks, and that would suggest they should have an export function to comply with GPDR. I wonder if I shouldn't have done that
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grantcodes Added a multi column mode to Together if anyone likes classic feed readers
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[eddie] grantcodes: Looks awesome!
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /User:Kaja.sknebel.net/upcoming-hwcs (-308) "update from /Events" (view diff)
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Zegnat Hmm, does https://indieweb.org/Microsub-spec#Set_Channel_Order mean a client can only give a) 2 items where the first gets placed before the second, or b) an array of all items?
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/xbs/status/963796410100604929
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@xbs A cryptocurrency miner hidden in a favicon.ico - welcome to 2018 via @chrskly https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWAXuZGX0AAj3uE.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/963796410100604929)
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petermolnar O.O
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petermolnar read the thread
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Zegnat So quickly scrolling the thread, it doesn’t seem like the favicon actually executes said code. So I am not sure what the big deal is.
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petermolnar indeed, that's my take away as well
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vanderven.se martijn edited /RelMeAuth (-12) "Martijn removed lots of [[rel-me]] from his profile for security reasons." (view diff)
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Zegnat Bit the bullet, removed /rel-me on lots of links :(
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aaronpk oh yeah did that ever get captured on the relmeauth page?
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www.svenknebel.de edited /RelMeAuth (+107) "/* Consolidated identities do not carry inherent trust */" (view diff)
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sknebel yes, see there
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aaronpk sweet
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aaronpk wonders what tantek's thoughts are on that
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aaronparecki.com edited /RelMeAuth (+137) "/* Consolidated identities do not carry inherent trust */" (view diff)
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www.svenknebel.de edited /RelMeAuth (+96) "/* Consolidated identities do not carry inherent trust */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /RelMeAuth (-1) "presumably you meant authorization_endpoint :)" (view diff)
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sknebel of course i did
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aaronparecki.com edited /Microsub-spec (+118) "/* Set Channel Order */ try to be more explicit about the ordering command and use cases" (view diff)
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sknebel somehow I still do not get the mental model behind the channel order stuff
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aaronpk huh, I dont know why it makes perfect sense to me
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aaronpk it wasn't even that hard to implement
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aaronpk okay, can you think of any other APIs that have a command to set the order of something?
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sknebel hm
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aaronpk maybe other photo APIs?
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aaronpk picasa doesn't seem to have the concept of ordering within an album at all https://developers.google.com/picasa-web/docs/3.0/developers_guide_protocol#PostPhotos
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Zegnat Yeah, I am still not sure what to do with more than 2 items.
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Zegnat What would the new order be if I have the order [a b c d e f g h] and a client sends [d a c g]?
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aaronpk [d b a c e f g h]
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aaronpk the key is "only the order of the items given are changed"
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sknebel [a b c d e f g h], [h, b] ?
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aaronpk [a h c d e f g b]
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Zegnat aaronpk, but it doesn’t look like either c nor g changed?
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aaronpk giving two items is a swap
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aaronpk c moved, and g didn't move because it was already the last one in the list out of the items you provided
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sknebel so to turn [a b c d e f] into [a f b c d e] I have to give [ f b d c e]?
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sknebel or [a f b]?
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Zegnat I guess I just cannot mentally get the algo right. I’ll wait for someone to document the actual sorting algorithm.
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aaronpk yea
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sknebel that seems more than necessary for "drop this element between these two"/"in front of this one", as I'd express it
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sknebel I guess it's not all that hard to formulate the code to generate that (take element + entire span to it's original position if moving up, or span + element if moving down)
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Zegnat My mind doesn’t want to visualise a single case where the b is still between the d and a in my example. All I can say is that with current documentation I would not be able to write any sorting code.
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sknebel I wouldn't bet on being able to do so either. I have an inkling now, but only after asking here, and no understanding of why I'd want that behavior
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www.svenknebel.de edited /Microsub-spec (-1) "/* Set Channel Order */ method=order, not =delete" (view diff)
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Zegnat Ha, I just realised that per RFC 8288 (Web Linking) I can’t use authorization_endpoint in an HTTP Link header
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Zegnat Relation type has to be a URI or match `LOALPHA *( LOALPHA | DIGIT | "." | "-" )`. No underscores allowed, apparently.
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sknebel true
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Zegnat It is interesting because the IndieAuth spec cites the RFC as a MUST for discovery, but the RFC doesn’t even allow the header to be used.
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aaronpk uhoh that's not good haha
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Loqi hehe
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tantek is still waking up
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Zegnat aaronpk, I am not sure how best to handle it. Because you either need to change the relation name, or deprecate all Link header discovery :/
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tantek it's an interesting point ( https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-02-07#t1518034782736000 )
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Loqi [Zegnat] Hmm. I’m thinking about retiring some rel-me links. Because RelMeAuth is a thing, I would really only want to allow that from silos that support 2FA. Anyone else thought about that?
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tantek and understandable
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aaronpk Zegnat: or extend RFC 8288 since in practice underscores in link headers haven't caused any problems so clearly everything has implemented it that way anyway
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tantek aaronpk: yes that
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Zegnat That’s fine too. I just checked the rel registry and it seemed like IndieAuth is the only active thing that uses underscores.
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Zegnat So I wasn’t sure how much underscores are actually being used for rels.
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tantek really?
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tantek Zegnat lol no theres a long history from openid :)
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Zegnat Oh, true, for some reason I read over that
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tantek and micropub
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aaronpk there's openid2.local_id from openid http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0.html#rfc.section.7.3.3
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tantek is just searching http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values for _
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Zegnat Micropub doesn’t use _ does it?
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Loqi existing rel values
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sknebel for token_endpoint
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Zegnat token_endpoint isn’t mentioned in the Micropub spec IIRC
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Zegnat Because Micropub doesn’t define how its auth works.
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sknebel true
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sknebel does openID support link headers at all?
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sknebel in HTML, underscores are fine
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Zegnat According the the registry there is the openid one, some dm_tab_* stuff (description link for that seems to be a zombie site), and an image_src that I have never actually seen in the wild.
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Zegnat For some reason I missed the openid one when I checked it, and the other two being on the list of proposed relations didn’t really make me feel like underscores were actually a thing in relations
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aaronpk I suppose a hyphen would have been a better choice, to match most of the other html link rels, but I used underscore because that's what they had in openid connect
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aaronpk http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-discovery-1_0.html#ProviderConfigurationResponse
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aaronpk "authorization_endpoint" and "token_endpoint" are listed there in that response
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Zegnat Maybe they never thought to check the RFC? Old openid used periods (openid.delegate / openid.server)
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aaronpk I think openid connect doesn't use http headers
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aaronpk their discovery is based on webfinger
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tantek.com edited /RelMeAuth (+582) "/* Consolidated identities do not carry inherent trust */ how about authn, as an addition to "me"" (view diff)
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tantek Zegnat they use periods for pseudo-namespace prefixing
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tantek not multiword terms
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aaronpk Zegnat: does this help? https://aaronparecki.com/2018/02/15/5/
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] channel-order-example.txt
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Zegnat Ah, yes! I could instantly implement that!
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aaronpk interesting
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aaronpk sknebel?
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Zegnat I was constantly thinking in terms of moving items within the given start list. So I was constantly trying to match things up through consecutive swapping or “moving in front of”
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aaronpk oh interesting
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aaronpk yes this is a very different way of thinking about it
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Zegnat Yeah, so no matter how I tried, I could never get the input and outputs to match up with yours.
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Zegnat But now I see that’s not what you are doing. You are actually targetting the index values more than the actual list.
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aaronpk So the one user gesture not cleanly represented by this API is dragging an item to a new position in the list. Wth this method, the client needs to keep track of a lot of state to do that.
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Zegnat Do they? Isn’t that just “move X before Y” once the user drops it?
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aaronpk That isn't a command in this api
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Zegnat Ah, true, because [b c] is a swap
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sknebel aaronpk: yes, that's what I gathered at the end. if you put that in the spec I'd be satisfied that the spec is understandable.
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Zegnat https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth/issues/17 - filed the relation type issue there for future reference
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Loqi [Zegnat] #17 Link relations in HTTP Link header conflict with RFC 5988.
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aaronpk Cool I will add that detail to the spec then
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aaronpk My thinking was that it's not that hard for a client to just send the full list in the new order if someone dragged an item to a new location
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aaronpk so maybe we should wait and see if that ends up being too hard
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Zegnat Now that it “clicked” for me, I do like this sorting.
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aaronpk oh yeah and by "full list" I dont mean literally the full list, since it also works just as well with the "full visible list" in the case that someone has a lot of channels but the client only shows N at a time
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@nhoizey @STPo @anthony_ricaud @htmlvv Ouaaais, des Webmentions !!! (twitter.com/_/status/964164149973413888)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Microsub-spec (+782) "/* Set Channel Order */ add example of processing the order command on the server https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-02-15#t1518709130562300" (view diff)
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[cleverdevil] New build of Indigenous is great! Good job, [eddie]++ 🙂
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[cleverdevil] Also, [grantcodes] continues to make great progress on Together. Now it includes read/unread status, a "classic" view, a more responsive design, and other improvements: https://cleverdevil.io/s/rbTFxamOAH.mp4
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[eddie] grantcodes++
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[eddie] The “classic” view is pretty nifty for some of the channels I have. Really nice, grantcodes!
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Loqi grantcodes has 7 karma in this channel (10 overall)
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[eddie] Glad to hear, the new build is working for you, [cleverdevil]!
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gRegorLove Loqi, messages?
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[cleverdevil] Is the microsub client in this build?
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[eddie] Yep
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[eddie] If you don’t see it and were already logged in when you downloaded it, you might need to log out and back in
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[cleverdevil] So, I did that, and the microsub stuff doesn't seem to work for me.
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[eddie] hmmm do you see the channels?
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[cleverdevil] Nope.
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[cleverdevil] Just my website name at the top and then empty white below.
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[eddie] Hmm that’s definitely not right
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[cleverdevil] PM'd my debug info.
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aaronpk it irritates me that the name "indigenous" doesn't fit under the app icon in ios
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aaronpk it truncates to "Indigen..."
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aaronpk but somehow "Micro.blog" fits even though its the same number of letters
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[eddie] ohhhh I have it in my Dock which doesn’t display the name
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[eddie] lol
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aaronpk good solution lol
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[eddie] The funny thing is I don’t think I noticed the cut off because it’s been in my dock since day one
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[eddie] lol
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aaronpk when does the app mark things as read?
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[eddie] currently it doesn’t. next build will do that
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aaronpk ah k
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[eddie] Yep, just displays bold if there are unread items, but they are always unread
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[eddie] (unless you go into together and cheat, like I did. lol)
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[eddie] I didn’t want the bug fixes in this build to be held up by the mark as read functionality, but that is definitely what I’m working on now
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aaronpk cool
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[cleverdevil] It fits in my home screen, [aaron_pk]
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[cleverdevil] I wonder if it depends on the device / resolution?
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aaronpk oh probably
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aaronpk this is a 6s
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[eddie] Ohhhh! That’s probably why it didn’t stick out then. I have the X
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[cleverdevil] (Same)
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[eddie] hmmm cleverdevil, aaronpk: For some reason cleverdevil’s microsub is returning “invalid user”
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[eddie] I checked the token endpoint and it returns create and read scopes
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aaronpk the response from aperture says invalid user?
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[eddie] Yep
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[eddie] oh wait
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[eddie] cleverdevil’s scopes are returned create+read
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[eddie] from the token endpoint. does that match spec?
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[eddie] mine returns “create read”
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aaronpk + is a urlencoded space, so in a JSON response it should be a space
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[eddie] ohhhh
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[cleverdevil] Is this a Known thing?
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aaronpk sounds like it
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[cleverdevil] Let me re-login to Aperture
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[cleverdevil] I made some fixes to Known earlier in the week.
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[cleverdevil] Wait, that wouldn't matter would it.
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[eddie] Nope, I don’t think so
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[cleverdevil] Its strictly on the Known side.
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[cleverdevil] Let me look in the database at what I have stored
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[eddie] The strange thing is that Together works
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[cleverdevil] Hmm... it shows "Authorized 2018-02-15 with the scope create read" in the UI, now let me look in the database.
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Zegnat Hmm. I have started to get some knowledge of Known, and already have pretty good knowledge of the IndieAuth spec.
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Zegnat How much need is there for the IndieAuth part of Known to be refactored?
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aaronpk oh no grantcodes it's still crashing on my instagram feed
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[eddie] Together crashes for my instagram feed as well
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[cleverdevil] Zegnat, your help would be greatly appreciated!
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[cleverdevil] I am trying to put together a little crowdfunding to help make Known an exemplar of IndieWeb.
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grantcodes Hmm, what does it say in the console?
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[cleverdevil] I sort of fumble along and probably bother everyone in here too much with all of my questions 😂
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aaronpk "Error: Minified React error #130"
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aaronpk https://reactjs.org/docs/error-decoder.html?invariant=130&args[]=undefined&args[]=
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[cleverdevil] [eddie] what route is being hit on my Known site that returns the scopes improperly?
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[cleverdevil] (everything in the database is correct)
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Zegnat I installed Known not too long ago to test some stuff out and try to help jeremycherfas. I kinda decided Known wasn’t for me, and because of /selfdogfood didn’t want to undertake big support things. But when I see issues like this come up I am swayed a little into thinking I should just offer some support.
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[cleverdevil] ❤
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[eddie] Well, I don’t know if it’s technically improper. It’s returning URL-encoded value with create+read, which aaronpk said is the url-encoded form of “create read” because + equals ” ” in url-encoded
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[eddie] I’m looking in Aperture to see what part of the code is returning this error
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[cleverdevil] Something like Known is so important to really drive IndieWeb adoption, IMO.
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aaronpk it would definitely be nice to clean up the indieauth support in known
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[cleverdevil] I have been considering building my own bespoke site for a while, but I keep sticking with Known because I really want it to succeed as a community project.
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[eddie] It seems that Aperture is failing in this check: (\IndieAuth\Client::normalizeMeURL($token_data[‘me’]) != \IndieAuth\Client::normalizeMeURL($user->url))
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aaronpk interesting
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Zegnat If it is the token endpoint that is returing form encoded values for the scope, that would be outdated, as in the new spec the token endpoint is always JSON
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[eddie] cleverdevil: When you log in to Together do you login with http or https
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aaronpk this seems to be something to do with Known's profile URLs that look like https://cleverdevil.io/profile/cleverdevil
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Loqi Jonathan LaCour
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[cleverdevil] Https
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[eddie] ohhhh that makes sense.
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aaronpk the token endpoint is returning https://cleverdevil.io/
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[eddie] I wonder if I’m handling the me values wrong in some way in Indigenous?
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aaronpk i'm gonna have to step through this. let me see if I have a Known install running
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[cleverdevil] FWIW, I would prefer to use the shorter version everywhere. I suppose it’s part of Known’s multi user capability.
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aaronpk does known have the concept of a single-user site?
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[eddie] aaronpk: The odd thing is somehow Aperture is accepting Together’s token
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[cleverdevil] I don’t think so. But not positive.
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aaronpk like can you tell it there is only one user so the identity should be the root domain?
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[cleverdevil] Doubt it. But that’s a good idea.
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Zegnat I think whatever the client sends as the me parameter in the initial token request to the token endpoint gets stored inside the token.
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aaronpk I know there's something about the theme that kinda hints at that
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Zegnat the me isn’t used to verify the code or looked up again, if I look really quickly.
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aaronpk there are good reasons to support both models so I wouldn't want to hard-code Known's indieauth support to either version
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Zegnat aaronpk, according to the plugin description, the entire IndieAuth (or “IndiePub”) plugin only supports single user sites.
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aaronpk oh? that's interesting
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aaronpk if that's the case, then it should never be returning a URL like profile/cleverdevil
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[eddie] cleverdevil: when you log into Together you use ’https://cleverdevil.io' and when you log into Indigenous you use either ‘cleverdevil.io’ or ‘https://cleverdevil.io’ correct?
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[cleverdevil] I think I’ve always been using the full https URL.
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[eddie] Hmmm, so that means both Together and I should be sending the same url in the initial token request 😕
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aaronpk so in Aperture, the URL is the long version
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aaronpk that's why it's failing that check
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[eddie] ohhh how interesting
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Zegnat Hmm. So. I think the code request to the auth endpoint will return the user-specific-url as me. But if the client software then uses the domain-only-url as me parameter again to the token endpoint, that will be stored in the token.
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aaronpk I wonder if this is because of changes to Known that cleverdevil made
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aaronpk I kind of want to fix it up manually in the database for now, then try testing from a clean Known install
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[cleverdevil] The only changes I made are to the scope part.
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[cleverdevil] No change to anything about the URLs
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aaronpk ah when you log in to aperture, it's not requesting any scopes from the indieauth server so it actually verifies the auth code at the auth endpoint rather than requesting a token
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aaronpk so maybe Known is returning a different URL there
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Zegnat The request to get a login code from /auth will normalise me to the user URL. The request to get a token from /token will give back whatever URL is set as me parameter with that request, rather than normalised.
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[eddie] ohh!! that makes sense
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Zegnat So there might be some mismatch introduced there.
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[eddie] I’m still confused how Together could be working with this url mismatch
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aaronpk huh yeah me too
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aaronpk where is the known indieauth plugin?
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aaronpk source
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[cleverdevil] It’s in Cote
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[cleverdevil] Core
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[cleverdevil] Under IdnoPlugins/IndiePub
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aaronpk oh right
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Zegnat Good luck aaronpk.
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Zegnat If no progress on Known is made, I am willing to dedicate a couple hours this weekend to refactor the IndieAuth flow. Ping me.
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Zegnat Something different: do people have favourite PHP tooling for db migrations? Preferably something small.
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aaronpk if i'm not in Laravel which has its own system, I just write .sql files and do it manually
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aaronpk k I read through as much of the code I could without actually setting up known and looking at the DB. I suspect that the verify auth code method is returning a different `me` value than the token endpoint returns and that's causing the mismatch. the code got too confusing around looking up the user account for me to follow just by reading it.
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Zegnat I ran into the “too confusing” a lot when looking at Known, which is one of the reasons I dropped it for personal use :(
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Zegnat Or at least, it takes a while for it to start making sense.
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[eddie] I can confirm the Known authorization endpoint DOES provide domain/profile/username
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KartikPrabhu what is fragmentioner
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Loqi fragmentioner is a Javascript utility by Kartik Prabhu which gives a pop-up link with the fragmention URL to a piece of selected text https://indieweb.org/fragmentioner
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kartikprabhu.com uploaded /File:fragmentioner-demo.png "UI for fragmentioner https://indieweb.org/File:fragmentioner-demo.png"
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[cleverdevil] [eddie] is it providing it properly and consistently?
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[cleverdevil] I'd love to fix it, but I am not sure what precisely is wrong.
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aaronpk I suspect the token endpoint does not return that form
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[eddie] token endpoint returns https://cleverdevil.io/
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aaronpk there we go
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[eddie] auth endpoint returns https://cleverdevil.io/profile/username
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[cleverdevil] Gotcha. I wonder if I logged in with the longer-form URL, if it would work.
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[cleverdevil] My guess is "probably."
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[eddie] Yes, that seems like it would work
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aaronpk depends on whether the token endpoint hardcodes the root path or not
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[cleverdevil] Still, I don't really want to do that 😕
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[cleverdevil] I'd prefer to actually fix this.
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kartikprabhu.com edited /fragmentioner (+257) "add demo UI screeshot and self-example" (view diff)
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aaronpk sounds like known is having an identity crisis ;-)
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[cleverdevil] LOLs
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[eddie] 😆
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[eddie] For your local install you could of course just hard-code the auth endpoint. But if you want to do something that can be put back into Known, you probably want to either add a config for the plugin that allows you to make all authentication requests as root, or you would want do do a global config where Known is identified as a “single-user install”, and then based on that, the plugin could return root if single user site
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[cleverdevil] So, here is the other idea.
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[cleverdevil] I could store the "me" that was used to generate the original code, and then return that back rather than looking it up on the user.
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[cleverdevil] Also, Known has this feature: https://cleverdevil.io/s/4lHoYZfl4i.png
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[cleverdevil] But, it doesn't seem to be used for this purpose.
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aaronpk ah I knew there was a setting somewhere
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[cleverdevil] So, I suppose I *could* enhance for that.
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aaronpk yeah the indieauth plugin should definitely take that into account
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[cleverdevil] Let me see if I can figure out how to fetch that setting.
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[cleverdevil] Nice: `if (!$this->getOwner() && \Idno\Core\Idno::site()->config()->single_user) {`
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[cleverdevil] Should be relatively straightforward to simply return the root URL in that case.
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[eddie] Yeah, that seems pretty good
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aaronpk should fix it up the other direction too, so that it returns the path URL for multi-user sites
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[cleverdevil] So, you said its the `me` that is being returned from the Auth endpoint, right?
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[eddie] yep, th eme
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[eddie] from the auth endpoint
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[cleverdevil] I think can fix it centrally in the `Auth::verifyCode` static function.
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[eddie] That makes sense, you just might want to verify if the token endpoint calls that function and expects a profile back that it gets handled correctly there too
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[cleverdevil] I'm gonna try now, we'll see how it goes 🙂
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[eddie] :crossed_fingers:
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[eddie] let me know if you need me to ping for the me value
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[cleverdevil] So, now I just need to figure out how to pull the URL from the config.
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[cleverdevil] OK
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[cleverdevil] Try now.
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[cleverdevil] Wait.
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aaronpk hm if you're switching to the root URL then you'll need to sign in to aperture again
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[cleverdevil] OK, will do.
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[cleverdevil] Sec.
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aaronpk i'm going to have to actually update your URL there cause aperture will think it's a new account
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[cleverdevil] Oh, OK.
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aaronpk but go ahead and log in and you should end up with a new account
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[cleverdevil] OK
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aaronpk let's see if it does that first
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[cleverdevil] invalid url
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[cleverdevil] Sorry, you do not have an account here
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aaronpk that's a good sign
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aaronpk one sec
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[cleverdevil] 🙂
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aaronpk try now
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[cleverdevil] Now I get "indieauth error
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[cleverdevil] The authoriation code was not able to be verified"
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aaronpk oh boy
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[cleverdevil] I might have to make this same tweak elsewhere in the code.
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aaronpk likely
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[cleverdevil] Good news is that its a really small, simple piece of code to add:
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[cleverdevil] https://cleverdevil.io/s/yguWQyinzS.png
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[eddie] Wow, that’s pretty!
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[eddie] short and simple
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[eddie] except for all the PHP nonesense 😉
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[eddie] 👼
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[cleverdevil] Ugh, I've made that change pretty much everywhere that `me` is mentioned, and its still giving the same error in Aperture.
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[cleverdevil] I am clearly missing *something* somewhere.
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[cleverdevil] New idea.
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[cleverdevil] It looks like its using $user->getURL() as the way to identify `me`.
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[cleverdevil] So, I'll edit the user class to return the root URL for `me` in the case of single user.
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[eddie] Yeah, that might be a lower-level solution, so it might find the case that is somehow missed with the current solution
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[eddie] I wonder if that function is used anywhere else in the site though 😕
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[kevinmarks] I wonder if this explains why quill stopped working with my hosted known site
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[cleverdevil] Yeah, that edit breaks other things.
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[cleverdevil] Sigh.
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[eddie] kevinmarks: This should only affect a site when there is an app that logs the user in via the authentication flow, and it compares that me value to the one returned from the token endpoint
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[eddie] Typically an app only uses either authentication or authorization
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[eddie] Because of the microsub flow, we’re having microsub readers create tokens, pass those tokens to microsub which compares the initial authentication flow me value to the return value from the token endpoint for the microsub reader tokens
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[cleverdevil] Another another idea...
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[eddie] Hmm, that’s too bad that didn’t work 😕 I’m perusing the IndiePub plugin but not getting any different ideas yet. What’s your next idea?
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[cleverdevil] Added a new method called $user->getIndieAuthURL()
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[cleverdevil] And use that within IndieAuth plugin instead.
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[eddie] Yeah, that seems like it has potential :crossed_fingers:
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[cleverdevil] HAHA!
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[cleverdevil] Fixed 🙂
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Loqi rofl
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[eddie] Wooo!!
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[cleverdevil] Now, I'm gonna try to logout/in to Indigenous
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[cleverdevil] BOOM
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[cleverdevil] Microsub love.
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[eddie] 🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌
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[eddie] It’s a party!!!
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[cleverdevil] I'll work this into a PR for Known later this evening.
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grantcodes [eddie]: aaronpk Is there a public url you can give me that I can subscribe to to test the instagram crashing thing. (never use instagram myself)
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[cleverdevil] [eddie] are you going to evolve Indigenous to be a full-blown reader?
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[eddie] cleverdevil: Yep, that’s the plan
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[eddie] grancodes: Oh wait, I take that back. My instagram feeds are fine. It’s my photos feed that crashes
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[eddie] cleverdevil: Any specific priorities for you in expanding the reader functionality?
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[eddie] My two big things I want to do is a “reactions” bar when you tap on an item, and when you swipe right to left on the item to open up a native view, rather than the web view
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[eddie] But I’ve been cheating by just having the web view for now lol
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[eddie] MVP
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Zegnat [cleverdevil]++ nice job on bending Known to your will!
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Loqi cleverdevil has 8 karma in this channel (58 overall)
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[cleverdevil] [eddie] I used to love Reeder before I went all-in on Indieweb.
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[cleverdevil] Make it look as nice and functional as that 🙂
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[kevinmarks] I am missing woodwind
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[cleverdevil] Thanks, @Zegnat! Feels good to be growing my skillset.
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[eddie] lol, I’ll have to download Reeder. I’ve been playing around with lire because macstories was raving about it
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[cleverdevil] [kevinmarks], you really should try Together. Its getting pretty good 🙂
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[cleverdevil] Yeah, I was curious about Lire as well.
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aaronpk grantcodes: it's not public but it's my granary Instagram feed. I could give you the link if you need to test with it
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[cleverdevil] Honestly, I think you should really consider pitching Indigenous to Brent Simmons as the iOS version of Evergreen and merge the projects.
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[cleverdevil] That could have a huge impact on adoption.
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[eddie] [cleverdevil] I think his skillset in iOS surpasses mine so much, I think the real route for that would be for me to contribute my microsub/micropub library code to the Evergreen iOS project. Having read his programming guides for Evergreen on macOS, I don’t think he would want to use Indigenous as the base of Evergreen 🙂
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grantcodes aaronpk: either that or example mf2 objects would be great. I guess the posts are just missing a property that I assume exists
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[cleverdevil] [eddie] point taken, but that's also the beauty of open source. People who are willing to contribute are generally welcome. Regardless of how quickly they can come up to speed!
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[cleverdevil] Have you at least pinged him to let him know about Indigenous? He may find it interesting.
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[cleverdevil] As much as he is an expert in iOS, you're more of an expert in Indieweb.
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[cleverdevil] He may appreciate 🙂
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[eddie] I haven’t yet, I may do so shortly 🙂
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[cleverdevil] Do it!
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[cleverdevil] I think you underestimate your value 😉
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[eddie] Thanks 🙂 I’ll definitely have to reach out, and regardless of what influence what, my goal is that Evergreen can eventually support Micropub/sub either through Indigenous’ app, code, libraries or just knowledge sharing. That’s definitely a relationship I’d love to foster
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aaronpk grantcodes: PM'd you a link to an example of the Aperture response for my instagram feed
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aaronpk I see a couple bugs in it from the atom->html conversion but i'm not sure that's related
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aaronpk aha, when there is no caption in the photo, granary doesn't include an e-content class, so then the name of the post is a junk implied name
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aaronpk filed https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/131
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Loqi [aaronpk] #131 Instagram->HTML: photos with no caption are missing a blank name property
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aaronpk I am still not sure that has anything to do with the Together crash
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grantcodes Probably not.
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[eddie] grantcodes: I sent you part of my photos feed microsub response over Slack
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grantcodes I didn't really realize what granary did before. It's like a magical new world!
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grantcodes snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 36 karma in this channel (344 overall)
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grantcodes Huh weird, the test data [eddie] sent me works fine for me
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[eddie] hmmm maybe it’s lower in my feed, let me see if there are any posts that don’t match what I sent you
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[eddie] Yeah I don’t see anything else in my feed that is different attribute wise
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grantcodes At some point someone (maybe me) should make really long jsonfeed example of every conceivable post type, would be super helpful for people building readers
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[eddie] ohhhh that’s an interesting idea. Good for testing
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aaronpk sounds like a test suite!
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[cleverdevil] It'd be cool to provide a way for people to connect Together with Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram via granary so you can use it as a centralized reader.
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[cleverdevil] Not sure that's easily possible.
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aaronpk including being able to reply? that's trickier
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[cleverdevil] Yeah.
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[cleverdevil] I'd take the consumption side as a good start.
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grantcodes I think just reading is quite possible, only took me 2m to set up my twitter feed after realising it was a possibility
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[cleverdevil] I really like how in Quill, when I "like" a Twitter permalink on my site, it also pushes the "Like" out to Twitter natively.
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[cleverdevil] (Same with repost)
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[eddie] The challenge I have with granary is you can view your “feed” but I want to be able to sort various people into different feeds
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[eddie] that doesn’t seem to work
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aaronpk oh yeah that won't happen with the way granary works right now
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[cleverdevil] Yeah, I think its fine for Twitter, since you can simply use timeline and native lists.
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[cleverdevil] Instagram doesn't really have that capability natively anyway.
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grantcodes I'd be fine with needing to use twitter lists if they were importable through granary
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[cleverdevil] It would be even cooler if you could just subscribe to individual Twitter users and Instagram users.
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[cleverdevil] And put them in channels.
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[cleverdevil] If you added them, then it could transform that person's timeline via granary into an individual user feed, and optionally do the corresponding "follow" or "add to list" on the other side.
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grantcodes And the thing with syndicating likes may be a bit strange, like for example my site handles that syndication
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[cleverdevil] Right. That may be a better way to go about it.
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jackjamieson grantcodes++
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Loqi grantcodes has 8 karma in this channel (11 overall)
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jackjamieson Chiming in to say I'd be very keen on a test suite like you describe :)
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grantcodes Yeah would love to be able to follow arbitrary twitter & ig users, even some sort of middleman service would work for that.
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aaronpk Could totally be done as a service that you sign up for and it would just provide an html feed for Aperture to subscribe to
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aaronpk I basically have an internal version of that already which is how tweets show up here. I'm gonna make that available to Aperture shortly, which will really help me move over to it for good
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[cleverdevil] Love it. Gonna have to come up with a new project name, [aaron_pk] 😄
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snarfed delayed reaction, re granary, it can do individual silo users and twitter lists right now
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aaronpk ooh even twitter lists? that's aewsome
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snarfed the UI doesn't support it yet, but i can take a feature request. consider the UI a trailing indicator of its functionality. full docs are https://granary.readthedocs.io/en/latest/#using-the-rest-api
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[cleverdevil] Do you already have it available as a service somewhere, snarfed?
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snarfed [cleverdevil]: granary.io itself :P it's not in the UI yet, but just replace @me in a granary url with the silo username
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snarfed see ^ link for details
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snarfed also for reading your full silo "news feed" or a twitter list, i recommend https://twitter-atom.appspot.com/ and friends over granary
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[eddie] hmm snarfed, I’ve tried using the API to get individual user’s tweets. I’ve never gotten it to work, despite trying the username and the apiId
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grantcodes I've not looked into how aperture works really yet, but thought it would be smart for any microsub server to support plugins that would do parsing for certain urls. EG. make a plugin that could parse twitter.com/* Then it becomes exensible for future silos
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[cleverdevil] Also, I am shopping for a domain for the hosted version of together.
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[cleverdevil] Feel free to make suggestions!
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snarfed granary is primarily a developer tool. *-atom are aimed at users.
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snarfed [eddie]: huh. i did it just now, worked fine. feel free to post an example (sanitize the access tokens) or DM me
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grantcodes Awesome. Totally going to try my twitter lists
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[cleverdevil] together.ist is available, that's sort of fun,
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snarfed oh [eddie] based on https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/125 i'm guessing you were trying @username? yeah that's oddly broken right now. username (no @) works.
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Loqi [EdwardHinkle] #125 Source should be able to be a username
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[eddie] ohhh hmm, I’ll try that
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[eddie] it works!
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snarfed yay. for the logs, here's e.g. the url for aaronpk's IG: https://granary.io/instagram/aaronpk/@self/@app/?format=atom
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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[cleverdevil] There's also together.express.
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[eddie] Found a new issue though. lol. there doesn’t seem to be any way that I see to determine when something is a retweet. It seems to appear as an entry with a different author.
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[eddie] I’ll make an issue on gh
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snarfed [eddie]: good point, thanks!
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[eddie] I’m so excited about being able to subscribe to individual feeds! I don’t know how I missed your response to my earlier issue
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[eddie] 🙌
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aaronpk converting these to atom is going to always be lossy. i'd recommend subscribing to the HTML versions, then we can file bugs and improve the mf2 markup
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[cleverdevil] Yeah, this is awesome.
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peterstuifzand.nl created /User:Peterstuifzand.nl (+338) "created page" (view diff)
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[eddie] Yeah, I go for the html on these things
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snarfed [eddie]: you didn't, i replied was just now :P
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[eddie] oh! haha 😄
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[eddie] snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 37 karma in this channel (345 overall)
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snarfed also re the junk names for granary instagram photos without captions (aaronpk etc)...
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Loqi nice
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aaronpk except hmm the captions aren't showing up in that user feed for me at all
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snarfed 🎵 hello implied `p-name` our old friend...you've come to haunt us once again... 🎵
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/131
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Loqi [aaronpk] #131 Instagram->HTML: photos with no caption are missing a blank name property
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snarfed so in practice i'm happy to do it
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peterstuifzand.nl edited /User:Peterstuifzand.nl (+342) (view diff)
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aaronpk yeah it'll take a while to get all the parsers on board with the new implied name rules so probably better to patch the markup now in the mean time
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snarfed but bigger picture, this doesn't seem specific to bridgy. implied p-name in general seems to give us no end of grief. is it worth reconsidering? (i know, big can of worms, compatibility, etc)
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snarfed oh new rules?
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aaronpk there's been some discussion about this
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snarfed i don't actually know it at all, just that it seems to cause endless problems
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snarfed ok good
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snarfed relurks
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grantcodes I think I just need to figure out how to send notifications to aperture then I have a pretty full functioning reader
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aaronpk https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/6
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Loqi [tantek] #6 reduce instances when p-name is implied
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snarfed so this would be a temporary ish hack, pending better rules
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snarfed sgtm
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aaronpk basically implied properties are only useful for the super minimal cases like <a href="http://example.com" class="h-card">name</a>, so if there are *any* mf2 properties inside an object then it wont create any implied properties
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[eddie] grantcodes: It’s pretty awesome. You generate an access token in the channel, then you just send a micropub post to /micropub rather than /microsub endpoint on the aperture url
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Zegnat aaronpk, “if there are *any* mf2 properties inside an object then it wont create any implied properties”, that would be my suggestion. tantek’s current proposal is a little different in that only p-name will not be implied if there are other p- properties.
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[cleverdevil] Oh, cool. What would notifications be used for?
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Zegnat If people wouldrather have nothing being implied in case of *any* properties, please comment on the mf2 parsing issue :)
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[cleverdevil] If I could stop having to use Tweetbot and Micro.blog's client app, and have everything consolidated into Together?
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[cleverdevil] Oh man.
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[cleverdevil] So great 🙂
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aaronpk Zegnat: I was waiting for Tantek to comment on that since i suspect that was his intention
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tantek thought we already had this discussion
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aaronpk It's pending in the github thread
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tantek didn't I document my reasons there? reason for the specific p- / p-name proposal was it's a more conservative change
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tantek and I was amenable to expanding to any p- or e- = no implied p-name
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tantek I know we already discussed this
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aaronpk I don't remember that and i don't see it in the thread
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tantek but there is no justification (use-case) for further expanding that and thus making it a larger change
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tantek it might have been in IRC last time it was brought upt
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tantek snarfed: " in general seems to give us no end of grief" because impls haven't even caught up with the spec yet
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[eddie] [cleverdevil]: I have a working micro.blog mention to micropub converter running on my server. I’m hoping to put a UI on it soon so you could login with micro.blog and paste an access token from aperture and automatically have your micro.blog mentions forwarded to an aperture channel. I’m running the backend code currently and it seems to be working, so any micro.blog mentions show up in my Notifications channel on microsub
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tantek except for the addition of having e-* properties like e-content stop an implied p-name
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snarfed tantek: understood. both need work, but implementations especially
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[cleverdevil] Epic.
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Zegnat Expanding to cover e- should cover all breaking markup I have documented, so no complaints there, tantek.
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snarfed sadly mine (mf2py) is basically orphaned, tommorris notwithstanding :(
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[cleverdevil] If it’s as easy as you say I could likely do all notifications from Known via a plugin.
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tantek hmm - thought at least KartikPrabhu or maybe gRegorLove was looking at mf2py
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tantek or kevinmarks
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KartikPrabhu wait why is mf2py orphaned?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: lots of issues, no commits
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tantek TFW a website forgets to support no-www and http:
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: aah I haven't had the time to work on it.
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tantek http://bodyshop.com/ -> <h1>Bad Request (Invalid Hostname)</h1>
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snarfed trivial one in 2017, work from only kylewm in 2016, others evidently stopped jan 2015
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KartikPrabhu and I think same with kylewm and tommorris
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: ooh how can i bribe you?! i have lots of requests!
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[eddie] [cleverdevil] Yeah, notifications are super easy. I added support so my website. When my website does rebuilds, it sends those updates to a Website Notifications channel. When I get webmentions, those forward to my Notifications channel right alongside my micro.blog mentions. Eventually hopefully Twitter mentions as well
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aaronpk [cleverdevil]: I wanted to make it as easy as possible to get content into Aperture! So if your CMS already provides a feed of notifications you can subscribe to that, otherwise you can use aperture's Micropub api to create content in it
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[cleverdevil] Adding to my todo list 😀
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: ok, maybe I'll go back to python programming on weekends :P I'll fork up the current mf2py and maybe you can help me prioritise the issues
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tantek oh nm for some reason they don't own their domain, they own thebodyshop.com
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: yes!!!
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KartikPrabhu cool. I'll put that for this weekend
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tantek KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi kartikprabhu has 11 karma in this channel (163 overall)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi kartikprabhu has 12 karma in this channel (164 overall)
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KartikPrabhu I basically haven't been doing a lot of indieweb stuff due to actual work :P
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snarfed totally fine!
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snarfed no guilt or obligation
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snarfed just fyi personally i vote for new implied p-name rules (https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/6) and for https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py/issues/83
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Loqi [tantek] #6 reduce instances when p-name is implied
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KartikPrabhu my articles list is kind sad from a timeline perspective https://kartikprabhu.com/#latest-articles
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tantek should we ask tommorris to help move the "canonical" mf2py repo to the microformats org?
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KartikPrabhu oh are there others in there?
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snarfed maybe! usually the biggest challenge is *people* finding time and feeling ownership, not repo admin and orgs...but i'm fine with whatever
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snarfed (ie people not tools)
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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tantek having multiple admins reduces the chances of that sense of abandonment / friction to update etc.
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aaronpk I do think there is a different sense of contributing to "tommorris' mf2 parser" vs "the official python mf2 parser" so there might be something to it
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aaronpk also that
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tantek is kylewm's fork newer by any chance?
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tantek ^^^ also not having to ask those questions
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KartikPrabhu my fork is way behind for sure
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tantek also which fork has the canonical issues?
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KartikPrabhu tommorris I think
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tantek that's probably the key silo / dependency question
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tantek then that's the one we ought to "move"
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tantek so the issue discussion / history is preserved
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tantek since we're not all owning our issues, yet
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snarfed btw KartikPrabhu re writing (articles), i'm right there with you. https://snarfed.org/tag/essay don't feel bad! everything goes in cycles, if you write less sometimes, that's totally ok. no obligation. vive la difference.
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Pessimistic induction
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KartikPrabhu I made some issues on my fork, but I can see if they are still relevant
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: yes of course. My philosphy with articles is exactly that. Notes are more frequent
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KartikPrabhu aside funny that microformats.org repo has a fragmention fork, which seems totally unrelated
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gRegorLove I only know a bit of python, but have been wanting to tinker more. I might be able to contribute some to mf2py at some point, but it wouldn't be in the near future
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snarfed also re ownership, shared ownership often degrades, so it's often best to have a single lead maintainer/owner. they can always hand it off when they want to leave
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snarfed worth considering for mf2py
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snarfed gRegorLove++
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Loqi gregorlove has 42 karma in this channel (218 overall)
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gRegorLove I'm in favor of mf2py under microformats repo
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KartikPrabhu gRegorLove: I did most of my python learning while writing code for mf2py :P
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gRegorLove Hehe, nice
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: isn't your site python?
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: yes, which I made while starting to learn python
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gRegorLove I started learning it with the crypto pals challenges several years ago: https://cryptopals.com but I got busy/distracted
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[cleverdevil] [grantcodes] I have this icon I made for Together -> https://cleverdevil.io/s/e4L4BQWjje.png
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[cleverdevil] Not in love with it.
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[cleverdevil] But, its there 🙂
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KartikPrabhu that looks a lot like twitter's t
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[cleverdevil] Agreed. Not super happy about that bit 🙂
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KartikPrabhu Helvetica?
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[cleverdevil] Next Bold
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[cleverdevil] Errr.. Nexa
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KartikPrabhu hmm
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[cleverdevil] I can easily edit it to be whatever.
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[cleverdevil] [eddie] how do you forward the webmention to Aperture?
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[cleverdevil] Do you transform the webmention into a "post" and add it to the channel?
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[eddie] Yeah, my website currently receives pings from webmention.io when it gets a webmention. So then I just take the data I get and transform it into a micropub post
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[cleverdevil] Gotcha.
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[eddie] I actually modify it a little to make it more notification-ey
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aaronpk You're anticipating my next feature :-)
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[eddie] So I append (in reply to: (link to post))
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[cleverdevil] Oh, so you literally just micropub over to the channel itself.
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[cleverdevil] Looking at how I might implement that for Known.
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[eddie] How do you receive webmentions currently in Known? Does it receive them itself?
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aaronpk I'm gonna eventually make webmention.io hooks talk directly to Aperture so you can just hook them up without any new code
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[cleverdevil] Thinking I could actually leverage the existing email notifications code here: https://github.com/idno/Known/blob/master/Idno/Entities/User.php#L82
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[cleverdevil] Hook into the same event, and then send something to Aperture.
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[eddie] nice, aaronpk!
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aaronpk Ooh yeah it'd be a small leap to convert an email notification to a Micropub notification for Aperture
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[cleverdevil] That's what I am thinking. Notification objects have everything I need, clearly: https://github.com/idno/Known/blob/master/Idno/Entities/Notification.php
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[cleverdevil] I am not sure that Known has a Micropub client built-in or not, though.
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[cleverdevil] But, it definitely has a little HTTP client for sending requests.
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[cleverdevil] I use it to ping Micro.blog when I publish something new, since I was having flakiness with WebSub.
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aaronpk You don't need a whole Micropub client since it's just one post request
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[cleverdevil] Yup.
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[cleverdevil] So, I would essentially just send a Micropub POST to "https://aperture.p3k.io/channel/34", which is my Notifications channel?
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aaronpk No send it to the Micropub endpoint which is just /micropub
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[cleverdevil] Ah, right of course.
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aaronpk Using a token you generate from within the notifications channe
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[kevinmarks] I can have a look at mf2py again - I use it for unmung etc.
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[kevinmarks] Also if you want feed examples, feedparser has lots
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snarfed [kevinmarks]++
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Loqi kevinmarks has 7 karma in this channel (298 overall)
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snarfed mostly it needs a single active owner, and then some bandwidth on bug fixing from people who know it
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[kevinmarks] Making feedparser deal with h-feed is one of my itches
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[kevinmarks] I agree moving it to microformats repo would be good.
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[kevinmarks] (mf2py that is, feedparser is a bigger can of worms)
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[cleverdevil] [aaron_pk] when you say "Using a token you generate from within the notifications channel," what exactly do you mean?
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[cleverdevil] I suppose I could use this: https://gimme-a-token.5eb.nl
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aaronpk No there's a UI for t in aperture
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[cleverdevil] Oh?
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[cleverdevil] Looking...
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aaronpk it doesn't do any IndieAuth discovery or anything, it's just an api key
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[cleverdevil] Ah!
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[cleverdevil] I see it 🙂
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[cleverdevil] Thanks
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aaronpk Eventually you'll be able to log in to Quill via Aperture's Micropub... it's like IndieAuth inception
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[cleverdevil] My brain hurts.
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[cleverdevil] 🙂
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[cleverdevil] Hmm... I am getting an Unauthorized response with that token.
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[cleverdevil] Can I just pass it as a "Authorization: Bearer XXXX"?
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aaronpk Should work yeah
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[cleverdevil] Hmm... maybe I am screwing something up.
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[cleverdevil] I'll try sending the same request to a requestbin.
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[cleverdevil] Hmm, yeah, its on me.
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aaronpk *whew*