#dev 2018-02-24

2018-02-24 UTC
snarfed, leg, [cleverdevil] and eli_oat joined the channel
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aaronpk o.O how have I never added support for "in-reply-to" in XRay's twitter parsing?!
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tantek with or without OPD?
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aaronpk just parsing twitter json
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aaronpk converting twitter json to microformats json
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aaronpk er, jf2
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tantek hopefully resolving any tcos?
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aaronpk thankfully they include all the t.co resolved URLs in their json
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aaronpk so I don't have to fetch them
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aaronpk oh jeez, found another inconsistency in the twitter streaming api...
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aaronpk if the tweet *does* fit in the old-style 140-char counting rules, then it shows up entirely in the old format, meaning all the @-mentions in the front of the tweet show up in the tweet text, even though in the REST API those do not show up in the tweet text anymore
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tantek hah
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KartikPrabhu that's dumb
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tantek you mean if the tweet + @-mentions fit into old-style 140-char?
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aaronpk yep
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@sandhawke @harryhalpin @joindiaspora My record is pretty clear about *not* pushing RDF into standards. Quick check -- yeah, WebMention, MicroPub, WebSub, JF2, PTD, IndieAuth all 100% RDF-Free, and AS2 came into the group as a dual-model spec, before I was involved. (twitter.com/_/status/967206428405633024)
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tantek I'd agree with that. Sandro has been great about bridging and supporting multiple perspectives and approaches.
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aaronpk 👍
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KartikPrabhu that looks like the beginning of a "flame war"
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tantek nah, the end
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I think you are "misunderestimating" the power of Twitter to escalate this
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I know both of the individuals personally, and they know each other very well
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KartikPrabhu ok fair enough
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tantek interesting thing is, denschub's critque of AP/AS2 has very little to do with anything RDF
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tantek IIRC
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KartikPrabhu yeah I figured. but also didn't read as not interested
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tantek but feel free to read for yourself. lots to learn there about architecture and the challenge of building "solutions" that are meant to fit many approaches: http://schub.io/blog/2018/02/01/activitypub-one-protocol-to-rule-them-all.html
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tantek to be clear, lots of general lessons, independent of AP/AS2
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KartikPrabhu did a search for "RDF" with no results on that post so yeah
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tantek no mention of JSONLD JSON-LD or LD either
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KartikPrabhu up
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KartikPrabhu yup
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tantek and two mentions of Linked Data, one is neutral/positive, the other is about general "follow your nose" and not specific to LD
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tantek so yeah, nothing in Denschub's article AFAIK justifies Harry's rant about RDF. sigh.
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KartikPrabhu oh well
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KartikPrabhu is not really interested in any of those :P
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tantek right, which is fine. hence it's ok that the article doesn't really discuss any of those :)
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@kevinmarks @harryhalpin @sandhawke @joindiaspora Can you understand why diaspora is ignoring webmention and micropub in that write up? They'd bean easier fit. (twitter.com/_/status/967211302778175488)
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tantek nevermind KartikPrabhu, I stand corrected, kevinmarks is pouring on the fuel
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KartikPrabhu lol
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DenSchub oO
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tantek :)
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tantek Welcome back DenSchub!
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@dissolve333 @verified is getting a spec (JF2) published as a w3c note and helping in several other (micropub, webmention, for example) enough to get a check these days? (twitter.com/_/status/967215577130590208)
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tantek lol ben_thatmustbeme
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tantek seriously?!?
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DenSchub i just saw the retweet... oh well.
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aaronpk lol
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scottgruber.me edited /Webmention (+82) "/* Perch */" (view diff)
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tantek scottgruber++
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Loqi scottgruber has 1 karma in this channel (4 overall)
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tantek.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "next" (view diff)
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tantek hey Kaja could do that ^^^ since it does the homepage :)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+0) "next" (view diff)
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tantek DenSchub: read your tweets https://twitter.com/denschub/status/967222223659466752 and following.
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@denschub @sandhawke @harryhalpin @joindiaspora 1/ It's complicated, but the simple answer is: at the point where we would have been able to contribute, it was already clear that the WG was rolling with ActivityStreams. I disagreed with this fundamental decision, so me joining more meetings would not have be productive (twitter.com/_/status/967222223659466752)
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tantek I can see how that would have been challenging to figure out how to productively participate.
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DenSchub maybe the situation would be different if I got involved in the very beginning of the socialwg as an invited expert, but we've had some project internal issues back then, which made contributing even harder :)
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DenSchub the "fun" thing is i never intended to question the w3c process, or linked data, or any other semantic web principles, and i actually think the socialwg and socialcwicg did a great job. but oh well, it's the internet.
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aaronpk wow that took me way too long to realize that "read your tweets" was "I read your tweets" (past tense) vs the command "read your tweets"
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aaronpk Not enough conjugations in English for that pronoun to be effectively implied
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DenSchub i usually assume the most friendly interpretation available, and a "read your own tweets!" wouldn't be so nice :)
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aaronpk That does make more sense
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tantek DenSchub: indeed. on many points.
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tantek The decision to use AS2 as the basis for the "Social Syntax" part of the SocialWebWG deliverables was made very early I believe, perhaps even at the first 2014 f2f meeting? I think at TPAC 2014?
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tantek It might have been possible to re-assess that afterwards (with good reasoning, new information, etc.), but probably not long afterwards
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[jeremycherfas] [mifga] Used to, long ago, but not enough to justify the pricing back then.
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[kevinmarks] Webmention retry will happen with mention.tech because it uses the appengine scheduled stuff and that retrys by default. I should probably tune it
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[kevinmarks] Hi denschub - did you get a chance to look at webmention and micropub? Neither mandate activity streams
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DenSchub i like webmention for its simplicity a lot, and i can imagine having it embedded in some implementations. i'm having a bit of a hard time figuring out how diaspora could spport it, given our own communication pipeline, but, quite frankly, that's mainly because i have not yet thought about it too much.
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DenSchub as for micropub... it's a long document, and i only feel comfortable sharing my opinion on something that i have read and understand completely, which is not the case yet. from what I remember based on quick looks, it is interesting, but i don't recall any actual content definitions. so it may have similar problems as ActivityStreams (too much ambiguity caused by it being only framework for publishing
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DenSchub items, without the goal of defining the actual items)
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DenSchub BUT! as i said, i have not read the complete doc, so... that's not a good position to have opinions on right now. it's on my list. but, in all honestly, reading the doc, playing around with its concepts and writing a formulated opinion takes almost an entire week, and i don't have that flexibility right now
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DenSchub (sorry for such a vague response. but i don't want to say "i like it!" or "i think it's not good for our specific use case" or anything else if i don't have 100% confidence in my knowledge)
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[mifga] Thanks, i have a feeling that much of what it offers on the site publishing side does not really excite this community that is more likely to use or build tools to accomplish what they need within the field of web development instead of this other strange environment. I really like how it brings note taking and associating and automated agents in to writing. I’m wondering what indieweb analogs to some of those ways to take notes, associate oth
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[mifga] and run processes against huge vats of notes ton find associations and direct connections you might not have guessed. Any indieweb exosystem leads i should research off the top of your head?
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[jeremycherfas] I ran a moderately complex status site with it 15 years ago. Then I found I wasn’t making full use of all that extra functionality you’re talking about. I’m not sure it is an indieweb question. If you run Tinderbox locally, you are independent. And if you are building a site with it, adding mf2 markup would be trivial. There are other people here who use mind mapping tools and similar who can probably offer better advice.
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@MichaelMinneboo @frankmeeuwsen Ik weet niet precies hoe die webmentions op je blog werken dus maar even zo: Gefeliciteerd met je afscheid van fakebook. :) Mogen vele mensen volgen. (twitter.com/_/status/967359208344707073)
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sknebel is there a demo of together that I can just try without setting anything uo?
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[eddie] There is a hosted version of Together. However, you have to have a Microsub server running first.
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[eddie] If you are just wanting to poke around I could set you up on my server, but I wouldn’t trust it to be a long term thing
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sknebel [eddie]: if that's a 2-minute thing for you I'd be interested, otherwise don't bother
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[eddie] sknebel Yeah, just takes a MYSQL insert on my side
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[eddie] I’ll set it up now
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[eddie] !tell sknebel Just add https://aperture.eddiehinkle.com/microsub/4 with the rel=microsub wherever you currently have your micropub link
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[eddie] !tell sknebel then you just go log into Together like any other IndieAuth site
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel [eddie]: thank you!
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[eddie] My pleasure 🙂
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[eddie] Let me know if you run into any issues but I just used your url from irc_people
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[eddie] So it should match up
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sknebel [eddie]: hm, it shows me as signed in (as in, my info is in the settings screen with a token), but nothing seems to work.
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aaronpk try logging in to https://aperture.eddiehinkle.com/ in a browser and see if you see stuff there
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Loqi Aperture
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sknebel ah, now it works. aperture login creates database entries, or dumb luck?
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aaronpk oh yeah, that's it
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sknebel then that's an aperture bug report I guess?
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aaronpk sure
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[eddie] Ohhhhh interesting
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aaronpk yeah the first time you log in via aperture's web UI it sets up the default channels
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aaronpk I should really just add a command that creates users and does all the setup needed
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aaronpk that'd be nicer than having you poke at the database to add people
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[eddie] Ahhh that’s true
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sknebel files all the issues
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sknebel fresh user confusion is the best time for that :)
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Zegnat (More users for unsupported software :P )
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sknebel together is not unsupported
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sknebel and I don't really want to use aperture, I just wanted to see what together looks like in action before starting to build a microsub server and *then* finding that I'm totally unhappy with the available clients
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Zegnat Ah, alright, just going off of the filing of “all the issues”, hehe
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sknebel on together
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sknebel and already found a bug on my homepage :)
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Zegnat Oh my
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Zegnat Please see if dgold’s server can subscribe to my blog ;)
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sknebel of course it can't :P
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Zegnat Haha
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Loqi awesome
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Zegnat You never know, there might be some PHP config out there that does work!
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sknebel true
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sknebel well, working setup calls for a round of praise:
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sknebel aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 119 karma in this channel (1572 overall)
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sknebel eddie++
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Loqi eddie has 25 karma in this channel (44 overall)
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Zegnat (Also, where I said dgold’s server, I obviously meant eddie’s server, don’t know how I mixed that up.)
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sknebel grantcodes++
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Loqi grantcodes has 11 karma in this channel (14 overall)
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[cleverdevil] Yay bugs to fix! 😉
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Loqi 😄
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[cleverdevil] Thanks for the feedback.
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aaronpk now you can make user accounts from the command line
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/Aperture#setup
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Loqi [aaronpk] Aperture: in development. do not use.
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[eddie] Haha I love Loqi’s parsing if the repo description
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Loqi hehe
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[eddie] Awesome, that’ll be helpful
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Loqi loves [eddie]
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KartikPrabhu aww
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[cleverdevil] Robot love 🤖 💗
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[eddie] ❤ loqi
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[snarfed] [mifga] re "exosystem," check out http://www.indiemap.org
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Loqi Indie Map is a public IndieWeb social graph and dataset. 2300 sites, 5.7M pages, 380GB HTML with microformats2. Social graph API and i...
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[mifga] okay, thanks!
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dgold i threw in the towel on getting a native MacOS microsub reader working.
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dgold I've made more progress in one hour using Electron/Node that I did in a week using Swift
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[eddie] Aww good try, dgold! Swift is definitely a learning hurtle, although I love it. macOS definitely scares me though, lol. The UI layer is so much older than iOS
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petermolnar lol, I remember using Perl TK and Borland C ;)
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[kevinmarks] I miss the UI layer of classic macos
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Loqi misses the UI layer of classic macos too