#dev 2018-04-21

2018-04-21 UTC
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loqi.me created /former_projects (+384) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /former_projects (+13) "Pants" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /former_projects (+4502) "add abandoned, unmaintained, unreachable subsections" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /projects () "(-2612) expand criteria details, start moving former projects over, some cleanup, more needed" (view diff)
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tantek ok that page feels less icky / out of date now
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tantek still a lot more work to do, but hoping the first few screenfuls of /projects is now looking more reasonable and reasonably up to date
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@naosk8 webmentionっていう概念、初めて学んだ。 (twitter.com/_/status/987535543331409920)
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GWG :
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vanderven.se martijn edited /unlisted (+237) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Add me" (view diff)
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vanderven.se martijn created /Capability_URLs (+188) "Initial definition..." (view diff)
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martymcgui.re edited /Microsub (+62) "add me" (view diff)
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peterstuifzand.nl edited /Microsub (+97) "add me" (view diff)
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schmarty algorithmic feed << http://memex.naughtons.org/archives/2018/04/18/25514
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Loqi ok, I added "http://memex.naughtons.org/archives/2018/04/18/25514" to the "See Also" section of /algorithmic_feed https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=47097&oldid=46586
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aaronparecki.com edited /Category:building-blocks (+1) "/* Identity */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieAuth (+0) "/* How it works */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IndieAuth (-124) "/* Setup your own IndieAuth provider */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /RelMeAuth (+201) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /RelMeAuth (+8) (view diff)
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GWG Since I don't need rel-me for relmeauth anymore, what are the other use cases?
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aaronpk "For example, Huffduffer will follow rel="me" links to show your connected social accounts without you having to enter them individually."
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aaronpk from https://indieweb.org/rel-me
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aaronpk But I think there aren't a lot of other actual uses of it in the wild
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aaronpk Also it's still possible that something will use relmeauth and not implement the IndieAuth protocol, so you might still end up needing relmeauth support
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GWG aaronpk: I wasn't going to abandon it. I'm just curious what else I might do with it
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GWG I'm curious what features I might build
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GWG Good morning, [snarfed]
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GWG I'd put an idea like looking for rel-me into Semantic Linkbacks, but I worry about taking a lot of data. I think pfefferle is concerned about GPDR
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skippy I'm still trying to understand the intersection between Micropub and MF2. The MP spec defines the "create" action as operating on "h={Microformats object type}".
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skippy but I cant find a list of MF2 object types. Just a bunch of classes and properties.
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sknebel skippy: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#v2_vocabularies
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skippy ah. thanks.
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GWG skippy: In one sentence, Micropub uses MF2 as its vocabulary
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Zegnat And in one more sentence, mf2 doesn't have a fixed vocabulary, only conventions
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Zegnat ;-)
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GWG Zegnat: Good point, but I was trying to simplify
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GWG When you start telling people before they wrap their mind around something that nothing is set in stone, it makes it harder to wrap
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Zegnat Yep. It is really up to end Micropub server to decide what it wants to understand. "entry" and "event" might be good starters, skippy, as those cover most posts we see today.
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Zegnat Though some people may also submit "review" objects.
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GWG I need to support event.
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GWG Although the motivation would be to attend things
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Zegnat You will be posting event posts for things you attend? That feels more like RSVPs, surely?
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skippy an observation: if the MP spec explicitly uses "Microformats object type", it would be beneficial to use that same phrasing in the Microformats spec, rather than "vocabularies", because I never would have made that connection.
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sknebel hm
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skippy and while I appreciate that MF2 is fluid, a more explicit connection between MP and MF2 would be super helpful to people creating tooling who are learning as they go.
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Zegnat As someone who publishes a "genderbread" type object, I am not support sure mf2 can ever answer it...
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Zegnat Whatever string makes it to the "type" property is the type, really. .
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skippy MF2 spec also says "h-* for root class names"; further confusing me, because the classes are used in HTML to identify things, and not "objects" in my mind. But maybe I'm splitting hairs.
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skippy Zegnat: that's fair. It would be helpful (to me at least) if MP spec said that, in some way, rather than "it's a MF2 object".
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skippy Words are hard. Specs are harder. Thanks for the info.
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Zegnat I think the "object" in the MP spec refers to the "{} structure" in the mf2 parsing spec. The type of said object is whatever the words in the "type" property are.
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Zegnat But yes, I can see how that is super confusing!
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Zegnat And those should probably just be called objects in the mf2 spec, as that is what they are called in JSON.
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skippy sure. And the "vocabularies" is not a great response, after all, because it's unlikely that anyone would Micropub an h-card, or an h-adr, or an h-feed.
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skippy at least, not currently.
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aaronpk i've micropubbed an h-card :D
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aaronpk to add people to my nicknames cache
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aaronpk but yeah h-feed or h-adr are less likely
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skippy this is all good info. thank you!
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Zegnat I wonder if it is worth starting a "mf2 JSON" page on the microformats wiki. For people who don't need to implement parsers but still need the info about the parser output. People like skippy who really just want to follow the MP spec.
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Zegnat We shouldn't constantly have to point people at the parsing algorithm...
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Zegnat makes note for when his electricity returns.
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GWG How does your nickname cache work?
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aaronpk Zegnat: good idea, I like it
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aaronpk really most people shouldn't have to worry about the state of microformats parsing or development of the vocabularies. for the most part there is a limited number of types and properties that are well supported between clients and servers and that's all most people need to worry about
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aaronpk GWG: I store h-cards and nicknames, and then my autolinker turns @-name into a URL based on the URL in the person's h-card
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GWG I always wanted to do that. Curious what you store
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GWG The full h-card?
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Zegnat I so hope aaronpk stores an up-to-date versions of my full h-card, haha
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aaronpk haha I think I only store the bits i'm using. name, url, nicknames and photo
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aaronpk and I don't have a good mechanism in place to update it automatically from the canonical one yet either
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aaronpk but it's a start
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aaronpk at least it means now I can say @zegnat in a post and it links to https://vanderven.se/martijn/ instead of someone else's twitter account
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Loqi Martijn van der Ven
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GWG I foresee privacy complaints if I did that. That probably wouldn't stop me though
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Zegnat It would be your personal address book. Not sure what people can complain about there.
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aaronpk yeah I don't understand. if you're running a service that does that it's one thing, but since it's just yourself...
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Zegnat You are allowed to have a private address book. You are also allowed to exchange this with yourself. As long as you don't offer it to others I don't see a problem.
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Zegnat Unless everyone deleted their digital address books tomorrow, of course
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Zegnat <20% phone battery left. Time to leave IRC. Have a good one all!
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GWG I don't know, but GPDR and Facebook news is making everyone overly cautious
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GWG Every day, someone talks to me about privacy
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GWG This information is online. I am using it personally, I will take it down if someone asks...so is there a problem?
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@magjckang Implementing Webmentions https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/987728814959607809)
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/stavvers/status/987340474989142018?s=19
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@stavvers One of the best things about the GDPR is now every time a stakeholder at works asks me to do something I don't really feel like doing, I can go "um, I'm not sure if it's GDPR compliant, do you know?" and they'll give up and die before figuring it out. (twitter.com/_/status/987340474989142018)
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GWG Sounds like what I am getting
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Zegnat GWG, re the nickname thing. I would say it is a personal contacts book, which is not covered by GDPR at all. It isn’t “online”, it is just synced “to the cloud”, which most people these days are probably doing with their contacts in some capacity. You just happen to selfhost it in WordPress.
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GWG Zegnat: I say that, you say that, but people...
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Zegnat If people ask you about it, you can always ask them to thrash their address books :P GDPR also applies to paper copies, so if they think that applies, burn it all.
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GWG My solution is to give them a...turn this off button
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[miklb] wait, paper copies?
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GWG Yes. That's why my employer wants us to scan and shred.
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Zegnat [miklb], any personal data register falls under GDPR, that includes things on paper
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GWG The truth is, there is a lot of confusion about what it actually covers, which means it is prompting a lot of behavior
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jalcine who owns activitypub.rocks?
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jalcine the test server is down https://test.activitypub.rocks/
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KartikPrabhu what is activitypub?
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Loqi ActivityPub is a decentralized social networking protocol (W3C Candidate Recommendation) based on ActivityStreams https://indieweb.org/ActivityPub
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KartikPrabhu hmm not documented ther
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sknebel that's cwebber/@dustyweb, he's not active around here as far as I know
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aaronpk Try #social on irc.w3.org or contact him via an activitypub account
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[snarfed] @jalcine looks like it's up and just doesn't support https. http://test.activitypub.rocks
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jalcine gotcha
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jalcine thx
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[kevinmarks] Chris is at https://octodon.social/@cwebber
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[kevinmarks] I can ping him there if there is something up with activitypub
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jalcine I just hit him up on mastodon
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jalcine thanks tho!
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pstuifzand [kevinmarks], have you tried the android micropub app?
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GWG Which one?
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pstuifzand the one I wrote
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pstuifzand Wrimini https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.stuifzand.micropub
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GWG pstuifzand: How is yours going? Haven't seen any notes of late. I test both of them
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skippy pstuifzand: I get "We're sorry, the requested URL was not found on this server." on that link.
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skippy IndieAuth question: how can I (easily) set up multiple sites I control to use the same silos for IndieAuth login? I dont want to maintain separate logins for different sites I own, if I can avoid it.
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pstuifzand skippy, probably because of the alpha tester whitelist
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pstuifzand skippy, I can add you if you like
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pstuifzand I will upload a new build today
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GWG With what new features?
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GWG I am always prepared to test
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skippy pstuifzand: yes, please, I'd like to compare it with Indigenous for Android. Do you need my email? I can PM it to you.
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Zegnat skippy, I have started http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-json, so I hope to soon be able to answer any and all of your questions by pointing to there! :D
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skippy Zegnat++
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Loqi zegnat has 54 karma in this channel (197 overall)
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Zegnat Re IndieAuth, if you are using RelMeAuth to login, that is going to be hard, unless any silo supports multiple rel-me links pointing back :(
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skippy hrm. I have two sites on which I'd like to IndieAuth, and a third site I'm using to develop my micropub endpoint. No easy solutions?
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pstuifzand GWG, I added the name field, but in this release there are more fixes
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Zegnat skippy, if you can use PHP, drop selfauth onto all of them? ;)
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Zegnat What is selfauth?
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Loqi selfauth is a single user authorization endpoint written in PHP which is easy for anyone to get running https://indieweb.org/selfauth
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skippy ooooh
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skippy that looks perfect. thanks Zegnat !
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skippy is there a similar small solution for tokens, too?
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Zegnat Not sure selfhosted. But you should be able to use https://tokens.indieauth.com/
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Zegnat Should work in combination with selfauth
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skippy sure; but if i can host my own auth, why not host my own tokens, too? tokens.indieauth will eb a fine start, though. Cheers!
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Zegnat I haven’t needed a token endpoint outside of the one integrated with Sink, so I have never written one.
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martymcgui.re edited /reacji (+216) "/* IndieWeb Reacji Posts */ add my emoji reactions" (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] @pstuifzand it is a bit fussy about http prefix
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pstuifzand if you leave a scheme, from the url, it will try to add "https://"
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tantek what is 502
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Loqi 502 is an HTTP/1.1 Status Code returned from a webserver to signify that the Proxy Gateway for the requested URI was not found https://indieweb.org/502
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tantek and next HWC is on 5/02 :)
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tantek what is 429
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Loqi 429 is the HTTP status code returned from a server when the client is making too many requests and the server is throttling the client https://indieweb.org/429
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tantek 8 days until 4/29 FYI: indieweb.org/429 HTTP 429 - "Too Many Requests" https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6585
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Loqi I added a countdown scheduled for 2018-04-29 3:04pm PDT (#6288)
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tantek !tell jeremycherfas re: https://www.jeremycherfas.net/blog/improving-the-h-card-in-grav consider a slight improvement: a <span class="h-card"> with <data> elements for all the properties - that way you don't have to depend on CSS or use display:none which can count as a negative in some search engines
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek agree with this: http://inessential.com/2018/04/16/now_im_in_a_pickle_with_this_web_stuff "What surprises me is that in 2018 it still requires so much work just to get a CGI script running on a server. It should be easier."
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tantek algorithmic feed << 2018-04-02 [https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2018/4/2/the-death-of-the-newsfeed The death of the newsfeed] <blockquote>This is the logic that led Facebook inexorably to the ‘algorithmic feed’ ... though, this approach has two problems. First, getting that sample ‘right’ is very hard, and beset by all sorts of conceptual challenges. But second, even if it’s a sucessful sample, it’s still
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Loqi ok, I added "2018-04-02 [https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2018/4/2/the-death-of-the-newsfeed The death of the newsfeed] <blockquote>This is the logic that led Facebook inexorably to the ‘algorithmic feed’ ... though, this approach has two problems. First, getting that sample ‘right’ is very hard, and beset by all sorts of conceptual challenges. But second, even if it’s a sucessful sample, it’s still" to the "See Also" section of /algorithmic_feed https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=47105&oldid=47097
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tantek sample.</blockquote>
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tantek.com edited /algorithmic_feed (+29) "fix blockquote" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /algorithmic_feed (-116) "/* See Also */ collapse dupe entries" (view diff)
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aaronpk skippy: that token endpoint is open source and doesn't have a lot of dependencies if you want to install it yourself
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cweiske aaronpk, when did indieauth spec change from returning x-www-form-urlencoded responses to json?
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cweiske https://indieweb.org/authorization-endpoint still says form-urlencoded is ok
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tantek 🍿
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aaronpk Quite a while ago, back when I decided to make it be a proper OAuth 2 extension
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cweiske https://github.com/pstuifzand/micropub-android/ is the first client I see that does not support form-urlencoded, and now I have to fix commentpara.de
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tantek.com edited /RelMeAuth (-149) "/* Selectively Displaying rel-me Info */ s/SMS/one-off email" (view diff)
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skippy aaronpk: IndieAuth-Token-Endpoint doesn't have any data storage requirement?
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swentel_ so, an rsvp micropub request needs at least in-reply-to and rsvp params right ?
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snarfed ok, fixed bridgy for new facebook API changes, it now asks users for their web site(s) during signup
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[tantek] snarfed++ nice work!
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Loqi snarfed has 57 karma in this channel (377 overall)
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[tantek] Then does it do rel-me discover on their website to try to find their FB profile?
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gRegorLove aaronpk, https://www.webmention.net has an https issue. cert is for aperture.p3k.io
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jalcine gRegorLove: it should be https://www.webmention.io iirc
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jalcine and also without the 'www'
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gRegorLove Different sites. I'm linking to the spec.
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jalcine https://webmention.io/
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jalcine ahh
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loqi.me created /Mongo (+20) "prompted by [tantek] and redirect added by [tantek]" (view diff)
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jalcine my bad
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jalcine goes back to lurking
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gRegorLove No worries :)
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[snarfed] tantek: it gets FB profile from oauth/API
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[snarfed] [gregorlove] https://webmention.net works
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gRegorLove yeah, figured he'd want to fix it so it will also redirect there
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