#dev 2018-05-25

2018-05-25 UTC
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tantek !tell snarfed I'm starting with trying a simple text request to enable the OAuth app "Bridgy" on a particular github org, we'll see if that's enough information for an org admin to figure it out.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek manual POSSEing for now
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tantek.com edited /GitHub (+277) "/* Bridgy */ provide a clue as to how to resolve POSSE errors to particular repos" (view diff)
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snarfed tantek: thanks!
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 6 minutes ago: I'm starting with trying a simple text request to enable the OAuth app "Bridgy" on a particular github org, we'll see if that's enough information for an org admin to figure it out.
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tantek snarfed, I'll keep A / B / C testing various "prose" requests to org owner(s) and see which get the issue resolved the quickest
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tantek til then manual POSSEing it is for restrictive orgs/repos
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@madebydusk ↩️ Mate, that would be amazing! It's one of those things, that when you wrap your head around webmentions it just makes sense. Looking forward to it, for now I'll just use http://comment.sh on my articles and keep publishing to http://micro.blog (twitter.com/_/status/999870387734437888)
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@growdigital ↩️ Plenty eloquent 🙂 – the alternatives are too complex, folks are locked out. My brain melts just thinking about setting up #WebMention… (twitter.com/_/status/999939551014551552)
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@EatPodcast ↩️ I may be missing something subtle here, but if you have a photo as part of your h-card, that works pretty well in an #indieweb context. Depending on the receiver, it can show up in likes, reposts, webmentions etc. (twitter.com/_/status/999943835454181376)
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@vincentlistens ↩️ Sorry I probably wasn't articulate! Using the h-card would be my preferred method. So when I sign in to "any_service" instead of it trying to grab a Gravatar etc I can use IndieAuth to verify my own details and push them across. (twitter.com/_/status/999945210070208514)
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Zegnat jeremycherfas, learn about a new technology every day: https://twitter.com/martijnvdven/status/999949082582974464 ;)
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@martijnvdven @vincentlistens There is (was? 😔) @libravatar, which defined a way for websites to discover selfhosted avatars based on email addresses exactly like Gravatar. Some Gravatar plugins may even already support it. Just need to be in the know about it. https://www.libravatar.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/999949082582974464)
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jeremycherfas But not for long "Libravatar will be shutting down on 2018-09-01"
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Zegnat But you can selfhost it. That’s the whole idea. Otherwise Libravatar would just be a Gravatar copy
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Zegnat The question is, how many plugins will still support it if the hosted version dies. Throwback to our HWC discussion about hosted Known (and other CMS)
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jeremycherfas Right. And how much would [people be willing to pay for something that isn't Gravatar and that probably would not be as widely available.
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skippy ahoy hoy
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[kevinmarks] bridgy seems to have been confused by my twitter suspension - when I try to reauth it goes back to the auth page twice, and doesn't show new updates. [snarfed] - ping me if you want to debug together later
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jeremycherfas !tell aaronpk For some reason, after an update to Known, pictures from OYG no longer show up. The post is there, with tags, but no image. I reconfirmed by signing out, revoking the token, and signing back in again. Resending still has no image. Not sure where to start looking to debug.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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swentel hmm, is there an alternative for microformats to set a title, which doesn't get picked up by microformat parsers as 'name', but could be used as a title for say atom feeds ?
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swentel e.g. I'm lazy and would like to use granary to generate atom feeds
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swentel but, the titles for my 'notes' are quite clumsy
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swentel because they do not include p-name in my microformats feed
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swentel (as it should, unless I put p-name on the same wrapper as e-content as aaron is doing)
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schmarty swentel: i use granary for this and it looks like i use an explicit p-name when my post has no title
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schmarty i probably copied this from aaronpk :}
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schmarty https://granary.io/url?input=html&output=atom&url=https://martymcgui.re/posts/&hub=https://martymcguire.superfeedr.com/
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swentel yeah, but that is on your e-content wrapper
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swentel so the title is kind of well, almost the same as the body
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swentel I could write it myself, but I'd rather use granary too :)
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swentel because in Drupal, every node does have an explicit title
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swentel s/have/has
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swentel going to read the micrformats spec
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swentel I hope there's some 'feed-title' class or so lol
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swentel snarfed, have you seen my issue by any chance I created on granary (and closed again?)
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[jgmac1106] This is what I was telling @gwg we should do with the note kind in WordPress "(as it should, unless I put p-name on the same wrapper as e-content as aaron is doing)"
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sknebel swentel: what kind of title would you want otherwise?
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snarfed swentel: hi! yes!
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swentel sknebel, well - https://granary.io/url?url=https://realize.be/timeline&input=html&output=atom - my notes have an internal title with #{1} - but they look a bit weird in atom feed
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swentel snarfed, yeah, I was trying to (re)figure out again whether I could still use granary, and have a nicer title as it generates now, any pointers greatly appreciated :)
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swentel s/was/am
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sknebel sure, that's not great. but if not something like that and not a manually choosen title and not the content, what would you use then?
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swentel sknebel, well, for my notes #32 would just be fine there, I can live with that (or maybe I change the titles to 'Note x'
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schmarty swentel: name is one of the "implied" properties that the parser will "figure out" if you're not explicit: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-implied-properties
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snarfed ...and implicit p-name isn't great in a bunch of ways
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snarfed it's improving, but mf2py (granary's parser) doesn't have all of the recent improvements yet
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swentel yeah, but for a 'note' post, p-name shouldn't exist (or be one the same wrapper as e-content)
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swentel hmm, I could do that of course
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schmarty swentel: you could use a hidden element to give an explicit p-name. for example, <data class="p-name" value="Note x">
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sknebel schmarty: which turns it into an article
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snarfed and re the feed title itself, i haven't investigated yet, but try including an explicit p-name in the h-feed (and outside entries)
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sknebel so indiereaders will think they have to show that as an useful title
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swentel if xray ignores that, that would be great, but I doubt that
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swentel snarfed, ok, will try :)
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snarfed swentel i expect many of your issues overlap https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/145 and https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/142
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swentel other than that it's working nicely, almost have the fediverse integration working with drupal
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Loqi [singpolyma] #145 Some weird results
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sknebel I follow a bunch of granary feeds and I haven't found the title being the name for notes being a problem
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snarfed common denominator is mostly bugs and missing features in mf2py
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schmarty sknebel: good point, post-type-discovery would pick that up as an article, then. i think combining e-content p-name is the most widely used method to get around this problem.
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snarfed recent mf2py release fixes some of them, i'm working on upgrading to that
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schmarty and consumers are expected to "dedupe" if name is a subset of content
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sknebel yep
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snarfed schmarty: yeah, which can fail in granary due to weak mf2py whitespace handling, a la https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/142
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Loqi [aaronpk] #142 Whitespace tags stripped from plaintext values
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schmarty swentel: that is very exciting! so folks in the fediverse can follow you?
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swentel schmarty, almost .. putting all the pieces together now
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schmarty snarfed: right! thanks for the links. i had vague memories of the implied p-name changes and mf2py updates for it.
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schmarty KartikPrabhu++ for mf2py updates
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Loqi kartikprabhu has 24 karma in this channel (202 overall)
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snarfed yes!
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sknebel snarfed: do you have an example where that fails? even with bad whitespace handling, p-name and e-content should result in the same plaintext version?
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sknebel (hm, there was something with image handling I remember from aaronpk?)
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snarfed sknebel: https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/142
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Loqi [aaronpk] #142 Whitespace tags stripped from plaintext values
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sknebel snarfed: but name and content are identical there?
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snarfed depends on whether you compare html or value i guess
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sknebel comparing html directly clearly doesn't work
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sknebel and with your own text-conversion of it, yeah, then you're tied to doing it *exactly* like the parser does
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snarfed it sounded like that comparison was at least part of the root cause there, but i don't remember all of the details
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swentel ok, I'm going to start overriding the node templates in Drupal
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swentel so the parsers have less trouble with these things :)
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realize.be edited /Webmention (+61) "/* Drupal */" (view diff)
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[cleverdevil] FYI, I added JF2 transformation in https://github.com/cleverdevil/microformats2
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Loqi [cleverdevil] microformats2: Validate Microformats2 JSON with JSON Schema, and perform Post Type Discovery
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@jgmac1106 Never really had a post go viral on LinkedIn (if 700+ could be considered viral) but my post on webmentions and credentialing is the most active post I have ever had: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6405191090282074112 #OpenBadges #Edtechchat (https://jgregorymcverry.com/2893-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1000061824669233152)
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Zegnat Reading back a little. Yeah. I think the deduping rule is if p-name === e-content[value] (not e-content[html]), assume the author meant for there to be no title. But I couldn’t actually point you to the direct discussion on the wiki.
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Zegnat There we go! https://indieweb.org/note#Note_Type_Algorithm
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Zegnat That should probably be cleaned up a little though. But is that the kind of title-note-overlap you were thinking about, swentel?
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Zegnat If Indie Readers follow that, your titles could be filled with just the first few words of the note text, followed with “...”. And readers should ignore it, while you can still have it in your generated feeds.
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swentel well, I used to have the title of my note in a p-name
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swentel but now it's on the same wrapper as e-content
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swentel which makes https://granary.io/url?url=https://realize.be/timeline&input=html&output=atom at bit more nicer
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swentel but I'd be nice if could have a say 'feed-title' class or so (just a loud thought)
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swentel come on mastadon, do your work .. :)
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[jgmac1106] Putting p-name in same wrapper as e-content is same thing Known does@
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Zegnat Yes. It is actually a bit of a workaround because until recently you couldn’t not have a name property. With the current mf2 spec, you should be able to keep the p-name away entirely for note posts.
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Zegnat But because the name property was required, the note type algorithm was invented so readers could decide when they did not want to display the title at all. This should theoretically mean you can define a (hidden) p-name specifically for things like RSS generation, that will not show up in Indie Readers.
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swentel Zegnat, oh but xray picked it up
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swentel even the hidden one
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swentel so I saw a title in monocle etc
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Zegnat (E.g. use <data class="p-name" value=""> with a value of “first five words of note …” and people should not be displaying it.)
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Zegnat It is possible that xray/monocle isn’t implementing the note type algo. Could file a bug for that
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[jgmac1106] Yeah with a title in Known name is an H2 class and their is no p name in post body just e content wrapper
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@thorkon Ist die #brid.gy-Brücke nach #Facebook kaputt? Help anyone?#webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/1000071384570253312)
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swentel ooh, I always assumed xray would be very much on top of things
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Zegnat I don’t actually know who/what/where/when the note algo got invented/implemented. I only had a vague recollection of it existing.
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swentel but haven't tried the data tag yet
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swentel mayebe I should
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swentel and see what happens
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Zegnat Tag should not have any effect on the parser outcome. If it isn’t deduping titles, then it just doesn’t support that :(
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swentel ok, let me try
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Zegnat But sounds like something that might be worth implementing in XRay! Definitely encourage opening an issue for it to get that discussion started.
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Zegnat Hmm. Deduping must be happening somewhere, tanteks notes don’t get titles: http://xray.p3k.io/parse?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2018%2F140%2Ft1%2Fbaytobreakers-bonus
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Zegnat And he uses "p-name e-content" markup
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Zegnat But maybe only exact matches and not prefixes are deduped
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Zegnat swentel, there should be deduping, and elipsis titles should be supported by XRay: https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/blob/master/lib/XRay/Formats/Mf2.php#L373-L385
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Zegnat (I should probably just have gone and checked immediately. Rather than taking you all along on my thought process.)
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[cleverdevil] This is pretty cool -> https://edgedb.com/blog/edgedb-a-new-beginning/
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swentel hehe
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swentel no wories
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Zegnat XRay seems to use similar logic when it is parsing RSS/Atom feeds. So I would make the first-five-words-followed-by-ellipsis my definitive recommendation :) If you see readers that do not implement this, file bugs with them.
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Zegnat (Source for the interested: https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/blob/master/lib/XRay/Formats/XML.php#L73-L85)
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snarfed swentel: if you put a p-name in your h-feed, outside any h-entry, i think granary should convert that to the atom feed title
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swentel snarfed, yeah, been going through the code .. and it looks like it
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swentel the case it works for aaron is probably because he has no h-feed class on his homepage, and p-name is in his h-card
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swentel (at least I think so)
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swentel (been a while since I read python)
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swentel snarfed, yep, that's it
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swentel cool
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snarfed yay
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Loqi woot
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Zegnat I am somewhat happy most parsing tools break on my website, so my markup only needs to be good /in theory/ rather than /in practise/ :P
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snarfed tries https://granary.io/?input=html on https://vanderven.se/martijn/ , https://licit.li/ , etc
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Zegnat I expect licit.li to fail
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snarfed yup
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snarfed connecting, not parsing
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Zegnat Yup
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Zegnat 1 little switch on the server broke all of the tooling, hahaha
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Loqi ahahahaha
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Zegnat Well... except my own tooling. I can still parse my site
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snarfed but can you *connect* to your site
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Zegnat Yes
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snarfed heh
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snarfed "must be your hardware"
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swentel ok, atom feed title check
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swentel now, back to fediverse testing :)
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Zegnat It is because I use actual up-to-date libraries, snarfed :P
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snarfed ooooooh them's fighting words
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Zegnat Hahahaha
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Zegnat My local version of PHP makes use of my local version of curl. And that is the important part.
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Zegnat But granary runs on appengine and I assume you don’t control what is used to fetch external URLs?
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snarfed right. some parts yes, other parts no
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snarfed fwiw, it's *extremely* rare that i can load a web site in a browser or curl but granary can't
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Zegnat points at his blog
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Zegnat But yeah, a lot of web tooling in general is completely failing at retrieving my blog.
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Zegnat This gives me a little bit of joy. Especially as basically all browsers connect without issue so I am not locking people out at all
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KartikPrabhu lol
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snarfed the agony and ecstasy of indieweb. you get to choose for yourself how your web site works!
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Zegnat And of course I have a status as edgiest edgecase to defend!
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Zegnat Though I am bending the standards a little. nginx can’t (as far as I have been able to find) really do what I am doing in the proper way :(
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snarfed tantek may fight you for that
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Zegnat true
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sknebel Zegnat: indeed, your server is lying about what it supports
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Zegnat Yeah
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Zegnat I was looking at caddy recently and it may be able to do what I do now without lying!
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sknebel so have some compassion for poor tools that just trust it to tell the truth :P
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sknebel fairly sure you can use HAProxy to achieve it too
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sknebel but I think we had that conversation alread
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sknebel y
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Zegnat Yeah. But setting up an extra layer in front of the server, with all the other possible changes in the TLS settings, still doesn’t feel worth it to me.
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Zegnat Swapping to Caddy might be easier (and interesting in itself)
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Zegnat Another reason I have considered swapping to Caddy: I can run what is almost the exact same executable on my dev machine as I run on the VPS. Making the local environment match the server environment more closely
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sknebel you can run what is almost the exact same nginx executable too :P
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www.boffosocko.com edited /on_this_day (+348) "Twitter feature using advanced search" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Facebook_Master_Algorithm (+235) "/* Twitter Algorithmic Feed */ method around algorithmic feed using advanced search" (view diff)
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www.boffosocko.com edited /Facebook_Master_Algorithm (+364) "/* Similar Algorithms */ Lindy Developer Twitter app for non-algoirthmic Twitter timeline; Keith Grant gist for Adblock" (view diff)
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[miklb] hey static site folks. How do you store your webmentions—JSON data files or markdown with YAML?
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swentel oooooooh
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swentel snarfed
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swentel like works :)
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swentel https://mastodon.technology/@snarfed/3194674
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snarfed yay!
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Loqi [Ryan Barrett] Working on connecting Mastodon with the #IndieWeb! https://fed.brid.gy/ https://snarfed.org/indieweb-ostatus-bridge
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snarfed that's something
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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swentel can't see that it's me liking though
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swentel but it was def 0 before :)
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swentel interestingly enough, still got '202 response! If this is Mastodon 1.x, their signature verification probably failed.' back in the response
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snarfed oh mastodon, never change
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swentel heh
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swentel so it's the same response for a reply, but something is going on there then I guess
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swentel let me try a repost
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swentel woot
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swentel works too
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swentel but again, same response :)
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Zegnat https://www.passprotect.io/ - interesting browser extension by Okta, going to check out how it is intercepting passwords. Too bad Firefox in “coming soon”. Would’ve expected Firefox and Chrome extension code to be close to the same for this.
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@thorkon @zdfaspekte #aspekte #DSGVO: Es ist Zeit für #webmentions . Dann ist „der Weg zurück ins Web 1.0“ unnötig. (twitter.com/_/status/1000124184650027011)
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tantek Anyone know if Bridgy Backfeed from FB has been impacted recently? I'm seeing RSVPs on a FB POSSE event, but none of them making it back to the original via Bridgy? http://tantek.com/2018/150/e1/homebrew-website-club-sf
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tantek good timing snarfed
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snarfed reads logs
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snarfed yeah evidently. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/826
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Loqi [armingrewe] #826 Seems Facebook mentions have stopped again
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snarfed only some though
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tantek snarfed, on my dashboard page however it is saying "Last syndication link found a month ago. " which has me concerned something worse broke
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tantek since I just posted the FB POSSE event yesterday
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tantek tried a "Poll now", and also tried Disable / Enable toggling
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snarfed yeah very possible. i haven't investigated yet
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tantek I mean there may be multiple problems, hence I'm trying to track down possibilities
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snarfed do you have an example post on your site with a synd link to a FB post of yours? ie not the indiewebcamp page's?
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tantek yes the event http://tantek.com/2018/150/e1/homebrew-website-club-sf
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snarfed your most recent public FB post i see is https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10103873606119083&set=a.10102018644676683.1073741831.214611&type=3 , which bridgy found
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tantek has a u-syndication link to a FB POSSE event
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snarfed bridgy pays attention to which FB page a synd link goes to
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snarfed the indiewebcamp page is https://brid.gy/facebook/688447421193285 , which doesn't have tantek.com in its profile (or didn't when it was last authed), so it doesn't look for synd links on your site
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Loqi Indie Web
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snarfed maybe add your site to the page's profile and re-auth it into bridgy
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tantek no this is always how it worked
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snarfed 😂
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tantek You're right that if the creator of the event was the "IndieWebCamp" user/page on FB, then it wouldn't recognize it
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snarfed ah i see, got it
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tantek but when the creator of the FB event is me (on FB) then Bridgy would recognize the connection and send backfeed
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snarfed yeah bridgy isn't getting that event from the FB API
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tantek I thought it got it from my site?
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snarfed event id 165225320840389 doesn't show up anywhere in https://brid.gy/log?start_time=1527208228&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyGAsSDEZhY2Vib29rUGFnZSIGMjE0NjExDA
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tantek from the u-syndication link from my event?
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snarfed it doesn't use synd links to look up API objects, no
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snarfed in general it's difficult/unreliable to look up FB API objects by bare ids, sadly
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tantek scroll down in that log and see how it found https://www.facebook.com/events/2026940924191951/
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tantek 2018-05-25 00:30:26.790770 D processing permalink: http://tantek.com/2018/122/e1/homebrew-website-club-sf
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club SF — Special 502 Bad Gateway Edition!
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tantek 2018-05-25 00:30:26.791020 D previously found relationship(s) for original http://tantek.com/2018/122/e1/homebrew-website-club-sf: [u'https://www.facebook.com/events/2026940924191951']
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club SF — Special 502 Bad Gateway Edition!
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tantek 2018-05-25 00:30:26.858510 D u-syndication links on the h-feed h-entry: [u'https://www.facebook.com/events/2026940924191951/']
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snarfed yes, again, it found that *synd link*. it didn't find the *FB API object*
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snarfed ie, when it asked FB for events via https://graph.facebook.com/v2.10/me/events?type=created&fields=rsvp_status , i expect FB returned nothing
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snarfed probably means i need to prioritize https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/814
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Loqi [snarfed] #814 facebook: redo app review for existing permission
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tantek hmm yes I did not get any FB backfeed on the previous (502) event either
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tantek this is the last event that Bridgy sent me backfeed for: http://tantek.com/2018/094/e1/homebrew-website-club-sf
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club SF — Special 404 Edition!
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tantek so something broke between then and http://tantek.com/2018/122/e1/homebrew-website-club-sf
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Loqi Homebrew Website Club SF — Special 502 Bad Gateway Edition!
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tantek I realize 28 days is not a very narrow window :/
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snarfed that makes sense if this is what broke event backfeed: https://developers.facebook.com/blog/post/2018/04/04/facebook-api-platform-product-changes/
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tantek Ugh this? "Deprecated: / Endpoints that return data including /feed, /posts, /comments, and the RSVP list."
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tantek (under Events API)
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snarfed heh yes and my memory is awful. from https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/814 :
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Loqi [snarfed] #814 facebook: redo app review for existing permission
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snarfed "they've largely disabled the events API, including /me/events, which we use to get events and then their RSVPs. originally it kept working even after they announced that they'd disabled it, but it stopped working today. that API call now returns no data."
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snarfed i conflated that with non-event backfeed which evidently partially broke today too
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tantek sigh
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tantek goes to check the newsletter
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tantek !tell schmarty any idea why your responses to this post are showing up with a scary dark figure in hat, sunglasses, popped overcoat icon? http://cathieleblanc.plymouthcreate.net/blog/indieweb/why-we-need-the-indieweb/#comments
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [martymcgui.re] This Article was mentioned on martymcgui.re
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schmarty Haha that is weird. My guess is that my photo was not picked up.
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Loqi schmarty: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: any idea why your responses to this post are showing up with a scary dark figure in hat, sunglasses, popped overcoat icon? http://cathieleblanc.plymouthcreate.net/blog/indieweb/why-we-need-the-indieweb/#comments
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gRegorLove Looks like Semantic Linkbacks plugin, user-secret.svg
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gRegorLove Or schmarty is a spy.
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schmarty Could be both
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tantek why was your photo not picked up?
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tantek hmm there's no "backfeed" section on /Facebook
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tantek I guess there's this https://indieweb.org/backfeed#Facebook
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+2569) "move how to backfeed from the [[backfeed]] page to here, move weaning further up, right after export" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /backfeed () "(-2234) move FB backfeed details to actual Facebook page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+462) "/* How to backfeed from */ Note recent limitations / challenges FB dev blog post about event API deprecations" (view diff)
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tantek !tell snarfed I moved the FB-specific backfeed info from /backfeed to /Facebook#How_to_backfeed_from and added citations of the dev blog post you noted - please review - thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek maybe its time to figure out microsyntax for allowing people to RSVP via Twitter @-replies
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tantek.com created /websignin (+25) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Why_web_sign-in (+379) "/* But a domain is a big investment */ That's the point - only a small fraction need to do the iteratively improving" (view diff)
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