#dev 2018-07-23

2018-07-23 UTC
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aaronparecki.com edited /webring (+42) "/* Examples */ microcast.club" (view diff)
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aaronpk schmarty[m]: https://microcast.club
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schmarty[m] aaronpk: already clicked on it! you and eddie have started a new webring??
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aaronpk :D
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schmarty[m] this makes me want to get a new domain for TWITIWAE 😢
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aaronpk oh no haha
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schmarty[m] mostly wants to see the source driving this webring, haha
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aaronpk want a subdomain on indieweb.org?
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schmarty[m] ooh, that could be fun! seems like chrisaldrich and gwg would want one, too, in that case.
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jgmac1106 atleast us WordPress indiwebringers keep it real on our own domain: https://www.wordpressindiewebring.jgregorymcverry.com/
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Loqi WebRing https://www.wordpressindiewebring.jgregorymcverry.com/wp-content/plugins/cookies-for-comments/css.php?k=8ca68dc25e6fec80c272393641283323&o=i&t=692823075
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jgmac1106 my ring needs it’s own h-card
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schmarty[m] that is quite a URL
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jgmac1106 I did remove the autoplay movie atleast
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schmarty[m] aaronpk: TWITIWAE added! maybe found a layout bug with the long title! 😂
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gRegorLove hehe
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aaronpk Oops haha should have seen that coming
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schmarty[m] is also a fan of the doubled question mark "A <Service Descriptor> for <Plural Noun>??" post titles.
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gregorlove.com edited /Skeleton (+343) "article on upgrading to CSS Grid" (view diff)
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schmarty[m] good article!
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dougbeal 18:46 <Loqi> [[Skeleton]] ! https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=50248&oldid=25697&rcid=50123 * Gregorlove.com * (+343) article on upgrading to CSS Grid
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dougbeal oops
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[eddie] aaronpk++ for microcast.club
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[eddie] !tell schmarty[m] I’m confused... what do I have to do with the webring? (Although I did just add mine to it)
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Loqi aaronpk has 164 karma in this channel (1685 overall)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@jordanmerrick_ Adding Webmentions to Jekyll https://ift.tt/2Lq0oYv (twitter.com/_/status/1021215648586846208)
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dougbeal True, clearly a blog roll! ;)
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[schmarty] eddie: i had a brain hiccup and confused manton's podcast for yours.
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[schmarty] since timetable was the first non-percolator podcast in there at the moment i looked.
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[schmarty] my brain is a tired brain.
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schmarty[m] dougbeal: it requires next/prev links on member pages, so definitely a webring!
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[eddie] Ohhhh!!
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[eddie] Gotcha :)
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@vasta Anybody out there using @Blot__ and have set up webmentions using http://webmention.io/? I don't think I'm savvy enough to figure out how this all works… (twitter.com/_/status/1021221665806737408)
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@jordanmerrick ⌨️ Adding Webmentions to Jekyll https://ift.tt/2Lq0oYv (twitter.com/_/status/1021222755587551233)
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aaronpk I decided to make it work like a webring but not actually call it that anywhere in the site
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aaronpk argh I need to learn CSS Grid
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aaronpk wait maybe flexbox is the right thing for this
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aaronpk no I think cssgrid is right
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aaronpk apparently I need to go back to css school
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aaronpk nah who needs css school when you can just copy an example that works! https://responsivedesign.is/patterns/css-grid-responsive-layout/
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aaronpk that should solve the long-title problem too!
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loqi.me created /Microcast.club (+157) "prompted by [chrisaldrich] and dfn added by [chrisaldrich]" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /Microcast.club (+300) "added some additional details" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /microcast (+158) "microcast.club" (view diff)
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@jmalonepr How to Turn Brand Monitoring Into Content Assets https://contentmarketinginstitute.com/2018/06/brand-monitoring-content/#.WzEb79EPoEM.twitter via @cmicontent @seosmarty #BrandMentions #WebMentions #SocialShares (twitter.com/_/status/1021252062703599616)
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dougbeal schmarty[m]: I don't know, it might be both a dessert topping AND a floor cleaner ;/
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dougbeal aaronpk: works with anchor as well! Dammit, now I need to record an episdoe
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aaronpk woo more microcasts!
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aaronpk wow anchor.fm lets yu add custom html?
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dougbeal yep
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aaronpk awesome
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ The fun, secret part is that @kfitz hasn't (yet?) discovered IndieAuth so that she can authenticate/authorize micropub clients like Quill to publish content to her own site from various clients by means of a potential micropub endpoint. [more...] https://boffosocko.com/2018/07/21/connections-kathleen-fitzpatrick/ (twitter.com/_/status/1021271424676245504)
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@amt_jose RT JavaScriptKicks "Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet by chrisaldrich https://javascriptkicks.com/r/52188?url=http://alistapart.com/article/webmentions-enabling-better-communication-on-the-internet #javascript" (twitter.com/_/status/1021290067351035904)
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@filipesantosr Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://alistapart.com/article/webmentions-enabling-better-communication-on-the-internet via @alistapart (twitter.com/_/status/1021319964136001536)
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petermolnar my semi-static abomination generator has reached 4.0: I bought into webmention.io, I generate PHP from Python/Jinja2, and I finally do ugly Python with nested classes.
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jgmac1106 ++gRegorLove on article for upgrading Skeleton to css grid I needed that for https://edu307class.networkedllearningcollaborative.com
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sknebel petermolnar: sounds fun. really should do some work on my site code too instead of on random other pieces in the ecosystem
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petermolnar sknebel: turned out search is tricky. I wanted to go "full static" and looked into js search solutions, but the smallest index I could come up with was 7+MB. So in the end, I kept the sqlite approach: the sqlite db itself is populated by python at build, and an extremely simple PHP will parse the query and query the db in read-only mode, avoiding the lock issue php usually have with sqlite.
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petermolnar https://github.com/petermolnar/nasg/blob/master/templates/Search.j2.php
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sknebel ah. yeah, search is probably worth keeping dynamically
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sknebel although I guess one could trade latency for download size and dynamically fetch only parts of an index on queries
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petermolnar the other reason for keeping a minimal, near-static PHP is to handle 410 and 301 properly, in HTTP headers
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petermolnar there isn't a lib like that yet
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petermolnar anyway, I kinda happy with this setup now
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petermolnar I also moved into "proper" jinja2 territory with {% block %}s
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@rynbtmn ↩️ @jasoncartwright Could get interesting if CMSs/publishers start using webmentions to their fullest and with truth/fact-checking in mind. (twitter.com/_/status/1021360898311708673)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Kind of @aaronpk Aperture is the server, you still need a client with micropub (writing) and microsub (reading) features. I use Indigenous on Android. Not sure what iOS folks use, look around for someone with their nose up in the air and you can ask. (http://jgregorymcverry.com/4894-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1021361443357249537)
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@maxischieder Was will man den heute für Authentifizierung von außerhalb nutzen? OpenID connect mit IndieAuth? (twitter.com/_/status/1021367504776646657)
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@_marcusherrmann In case you missed it yesterday: https://marcus.io/blog/a-webmention-linklist https://twitter.com/_marcusherrmann/status/1020954345070841857 (twitter.com/_/status/1021373141019488256)
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jgmac1106 my feeds don’t refresh on Indigenous for Android. Still just have blank screen. Do need to connect my Apeture account in anyway? I still get a 401 error if I click “refresh syndication links” not sure if that is connected, what web based social reader should I play with?
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[eddie] If you're not sure if Aperture is communicating correctly, I'd start with https://monocle.p3k.io
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[eddie] Together is also a good web based reader, but I think Monocle is the best at debug messages
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ZachOglesby[m] [eddie]: together has a setting to syndicate automatically likes replies and more. Is that something you have thought about? Should I create an issue for it? (I have not looked yet to see if was already a ticket). The share sheet has no option for syndication so I think that kind of thing would be helpful.
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jgmac1106 thx [eddie]
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@afontcu_ Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://alistapart.com/article/webmentions-enabling-better-communication-on-the-internet via @alistapart (twitter.com/_/status/1021415131035684864)
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[eddie] ZachOglesby[m] Yeah I think that's a great idea. I (think) I have an issue for that in my feature tracker, but I'll check and if not, I'll add it in.
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[eddie] Thanks for the feedback 🙂
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jgmac1106 yep [eddie] I get this “error_fetching_url There was an error fetching the profile URL when checking for redirects.” so my issue
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[eddie] !tell [chrisaldrich] Your h-event seems to be embedded within your h-entry, which means xray and quill sees your event as an entry, and I can't RSVP easily 😞
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jgmac1106 [eddie] figures it out….makes total sense, every post in WP wrapped in h-entry. Will need to fix for event [gwg] I will try to look tonight
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[eddie] 🎵 dun dun dun...... 🎵 Wordpress strikes again 😉
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@nick_chater Webmention https://ift.tt/2NzOGb5 #EdChat (twitter.com/_/status/1021421783319285760)
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jgmac1106 out of curiosity what does this mean? “Cookie nonce is invalid"
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[eddie] hmmm that's a great question
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sknebel jgmac1106: context? sounds like a security check failing
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jgmac1106 yeah only happens occassionaly in FF when I try to add a link in responsive properties box for a reply, just head to Chrome when it happens
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@HelloNaamio ↩️ Fully open source under MIT License, and aiming for full standards compliance for compatibility between any and all projects supporting #ActivityPub and #Webmention. We don't want to lock anyone in, or out. (twitter.com/_/status/1021427801545682961)
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@Blot__ ↩️ This thread could be helpful: https://mobile.twitter.com/jobsonnentag/status/964589990884921345 Am not especially familiar with webmentions but happy to answer any questions you have! (twitter.com/_/status/1021428443668451329)
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GWG Always with the Wordpress striking
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aaronpk i'm so curious about this https://twitter.com/HelloNaamio/status/1021427801545682961
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@HelloNaamio @jaywink Fully open source under MIT License, and aiming for full standards compliance for compatibility between any and all projects supporting #ActivityPub and #Webmention. We don't want to lock anyone in, or out. (twitter.com/_/status/1021427801545682961)
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sknebel aaronpk: try a "hi, I'm the editor of the webmention specification, can I have a peek too?" message?
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snarfed hey [eddie], did you end up using bridgy's api to handle https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/835 ? or...?
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Loqi [EdwardHinkle] #835 Respond with previous URL when a duplicate webmention is detected
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[kevinmarks] that way you can help them as they work through webmention.rocks
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sknebel snarfed: I guess I'm making you unhappy if my first thought on "HTML vs JSON errors" is "conneg...."?
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snarfed hah yup
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snarfed my first thought on that is, PRs welcome
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snarfed but for [eddie]'s use case, i think bridgy's API is actually the right answer
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[cleverdevil] Can someone who is using WordPress' native IndieAuth support try logging into Indiepaper here: https://www.indiepaper.io
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[cleverdevil] I have a user who is experiencing an error, and I am not sure if its something on my end or theirs.
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[chrisaldrich] I get a success screen [cleverdevil] (which kind of surprised me given some of the recent pickiness and my inability to get things on the microsub side working when I tried last week)
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[cleverdevil] On the success screen, do you get a valid bookmarklet and token?
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[cleverdevil] (You can click the button to show details... if things worked, it should show a valid Micropub endpoint and a valid Bearer token)
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[chrisaldrich] yes, it shows the right endpoint and a bearer token.
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[cleverdevil] Cool
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[cleverdevil] Thanks 🙂
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[chrisaldrich] from a UI perspective, might be worth it to separate the bookmarklet from the other two buttons
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[cleverdevil] I think you're right.
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[chrisaldrich] I expected the bookmarklet and immediately thought: "Why are there three of them?"
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[cleverdevil] 🙂
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@librarian2277 Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet https://sidebar.io/out?url=https%3A%2F%2Falistapart.com%2Farticle%2Fwebmentions-enabling-better-communication-on-the-internet via @SidebarIO (twitter.com/_/status/1021449595166093312)
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@FascMonsters A List Apart: Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet | WP Curated Network http://snip.ly/buby6q (twitter.com/_/status/1021449887144185856)
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dougbeal Looks like relay.fm has the main subnet podcast feed on their site, and only uses anchor for virtual assisant/anchor support
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dougbeal What is TuneIn
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "TuneIn" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "TuneIn is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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dougbeal What is anchor.fm
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Loqi Anchor.FM is a new "radio" app https://indieweb.org/anchor.fm
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dougbeal What is SoundCloud
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Loqi SoundCloud is a silo for hosting/sharing/commenting on sounds and music https://indieweb.org/SoundCloud
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dougbeal.com edited /anchor.fm (+27) (view diff)
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[kevinmarks] there is also BBC Sounds http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/aboutthebbc/entries/bde59828-90ea-46ac-be5b-6926a07d93fb
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[kevinmarks] which currently only plays BBC podcasts, but that is expected to change
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boffosocko.com edited /Indieweb_for_Education (+424) "/* Others */ Kathleen Fitzpatrick" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /book (+820) "Kathleen Fitzpatrick, James Shelley examples; see also links for personal library, samizdat, and education; move TOC" (view diff)
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@jasoncartwright ↩️ Need to read more about webmentions. I like http://genius.com style annotations. Wonder if something like that but run by trusted journos would be interesting (twitter.com/_/status/1021478185442131972)
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@devevangelist Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://bit.ly/2A2HC4X (twitter.com/_/status/1021480319621455874)
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[eddie] !tell snarfed currently I have just done nothing on it. API seems like a good solution though, I’ll look into that 🙂 Thanks
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[eddie] !tell aaronpk Does webmention.io have any support for Salmention or to start enabling that should I fetch the page contents whenever I get an updated Webmention ping from webmention.io?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek eddie probably worth filing (checking for) an issue re: salmention support on webmention
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[eddie] tantek: good idea, I’ll go check
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[eddie] 0 open or closed, so I’ll create one
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sknebel what does "salmention support" mean for a webmention endpoint?
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@marcos_nahr The free exchange of information and ideas is one of the great beauties of the internet, so why is so much of that communication still trapped behind the walls of individual social silos? Enter Webmentions http://ow.ly/17Zx30l50K2 (twitter.com/_/status/1021498954649886722)
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[eddie] Webmention.io processes webmention pings and delivers fat pings with the webmention info. If it included salmention support, that would mean that there was some way to retrieve the downstream webmentions through the webmention pings
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tantek for a specific example, see the use of salmention in /SWAT0
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sknebel "downstream webmentions" as in have it parse the marked up replies from a page?
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[eddie] yes
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[eddie] Issue filed: https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/07/23/18/reply/
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Loqi [Eddie Hinkle] Salmention support
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[eddie] with POSSE
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[eddie] 🙌
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[eddie] I ❤ the IndieWeb
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tantek nice
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snarfed related: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/458
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Loqi snarfed: [eddie] left you a message 21 minutes ago: currently I have just done nothing on it. API seems like a good solution though, I’ll look into that 🙂 Thanks
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Loqi [voxpelli] #458 figure out how to interoperate with salmentions
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[eddie] Wow, that’s a long thread!
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[eddie] haha, I’ll have to save that for later reading 😆
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snarfed eh no need, really. it just boils down to, "let's make sure bridgy works with salmentions. maybe it already does? probably. we don't know yet."
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[eddie] 😆
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[eddie] Gotcha
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[eddie] Here, I just came up with some fancy GitHub minimal reply contexts and went to document them and it turns out Tantek already thought of it
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[eddie] haha
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[eddie] tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 41 karma in this channel (462 overall)
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[eddie] touche
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petermolnar [eddie]: that is the first rule of the wiki: either tantek or aaronpk thought of it and/or implemented it 2 years ago.
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@kundukundu Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet · An A List Apart Article https://alistapart.com/article/webmentions-enabling-better-communication-on-the-internet (twitter.com/_/status/1021516850948177921)
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@mor10 I've long felt that webmentions would be a perfect fit for #WordPress core. This article makes me even more sure. Let's get to work! (twitter.com/_/status/1021517416503734272)
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@anndaramola Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://alistapart.com/article/webmentions-enabling-better-communication-on-the-internet (twitter.com/_/status/1021518816860233728)
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@anndaramola ↩️ Implementing Webmentions https://allinthehead.com/retro/378/implementing-webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/1021519117839298560)
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[eddie] haha that’s true petermolnar!
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schmarty mayo: i think you hit on the way people are currently using mp-destination. a micropub client sends a request to your singular micropub endpoint, and that endpoint interprets mp-destination and what to do with it
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GWG mayo, I am a contributor to the Wordpress Micropub plugin
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GWG So mp-destination is of interest
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mayo schmarty: right ok. So if I were using Aperture (which supports endpoint per channel, with extra headers), I'd have to theoretically poppulate my micropub endpoint mp-destination config with each microsub channel's micrppub url, and then internally append the right headers when making those requests.
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schmarty mayo: right, your micropub endpoint would be acting as a proxy to those endpoints, keeping track of whatever info it needed to successfully pass the messages along.
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tantek__ what is a nonce?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "nonce" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "nonce is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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mayo schmarty: hmm ok. feels like microsub should eventually have a sane way of exposing this, otherwise it's lot of manual work. especially for people with less tech inclination
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mayo (I'm coming off the idea that posting into specific microsub channels seems like such a natural thing to do)
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loqi.me created /abstraction (+35) "prompted by tantek__ and redirect added by tantek__" (view diff)
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tantek__ meant to put this here: https://twitter.com/Carnage4Life/status/1021158217320022017
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@Carnage4Life This blog post touches on one of the key causes of bad software & missed schedules. Premature abstractions, unnecessary extensibility and focus on challenging edge cases has destroyed more projects than I can count. Simple, correct, fast. In that order https://medium.com/@george3d6/imaginary-problems-d4f2921bd1b8?source=twitterShare-bd28b364c8d1-1532297835 (twitter.com/_/status/1021158217320022017)
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tantek__ I feel like we have values that tend to counteract a bunch of that
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tantek__ in contrast to more... academic approaches
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gregorlove.com created /ICQ (+137) "stub, prompted by tantek__" (view diff)
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sknebel A nonce is in cryptography a code that's only used once, e.g. to protect authentication flows against replay attacks or to be used as a token to protect against Cross-Site Request Forgery.
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /nonce (+213) "prompted by tantek__ and dfn added by sknebel" (view diff)
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tantek__ and from that tweet https://medium.com/@george3d6/imaginary-problems-d4f2921bd1b8
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sknebel mayo: So basically, what you want is to be able to send posts from your client to either your site or aperture?
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tantek__ wow this: "The dev team heard about some exciting challenges they could work on…. and a slew of boring, basic features they couldn’t be bothered to test properly or care about."
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sknebel (note that the micropub to channel as far as I know currently is only supported in aperture, not necessarily other microsub servers)
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tantek__ and this: "People who are bred, selected and compensated to find complicated solutions do not have an incentive to implement simplified ones. — Taleb"
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sknebel and the ability to easily switch means you don't want to log in for different endpoints depending on where you want to send something?
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mayo sknebel: sortof. I'm not actually using Aperture. I found one other microsub server that does something similar. But I'm implementing my own. But yes, I want to publish to multiple sub channels + my site.
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mayo sknebel: that's right, I don't want to login/logout for each post. Also, lost of services use rel=microsub, so it'd be hard to switch the URLs for different posts
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tantek__ architecture astronomy << 2018-07-20 [https://medium.com/@george3d6/imaginary-problems-d4f2921bd1b8 Imaginary problems, the root of bad software]
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Loqi ok, I added "2018-07-20 [https://medium.com/@george3d6/imaginary-problems-d4f2921bd1b8 Imaginary problems, the root of bad software]" to the "See Also" section of /architecture_astronomy https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=50275&oldid=43619
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mayo sknebel: indiepaper.io solves it by just asking for URL+auth header, which works, but just doens't feel like the right approach. But it works, until something more general is worked out
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gregorlove.com edited /ICQ (+72) "animated logo" (view diff)
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@tutorialsonline Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://dlvr.it/QcXJKY (twitter.com/_/status/1021525882651869184)
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@Simounet #Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the #Internet // #decentralize https://alistapart.com/article/webmentions-enabling-better-communication-on-the-internet (twitter.com/_/status/1021525894375108609)
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sknebel ok, so mp-destination sounds like it'd fit, but I guess if this becomes a common feature it could make sense to have some standard to find the microsub servers micropub endpoint
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@katjasternnerd Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://dlvr.it/QcXJrK https://t.co/PJ3skogBQf (twitter.com/_/status/1021526385376935936)
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@sigmagfx Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://dlvr.it/QcXJrz https://t.co/G5wiqBLw4r (twitter.com/_/status/1021526389994868736)
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@Trans4 Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://dlvr.it/QcXJpS https://t.co/l0l4S6lVjn (twitter.com/_/status/1021526391567736832)
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@thedesignersmag Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://dlvr.it/QcXJtL https://t.co/lH9cuy0Dg8 (twitter.com/_/status/1021526392448536576)
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sknebel auth could just check against the token endpoint, no specific tokens needed necessarily
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@RixiVert Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet https://ift.tt/2uTW9dk #webdesign #onlinebusiness #marketing (twitter.com/_/status/1021526729775636485)
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sknebel mayo: open an issue against the microsub spec to at least keep track of the idea?
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mayo sknebel: yup, will do
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mayo sknebel: the way aperture does it is it uses different Auth headers as channel "API keys", which it uses in place of the auth header. I see how that has drawbacks if I were to use this with mp-destination, but I should also ask Aaron why that solution was chosen, as opposed to other ways of doing it...
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mayo I have some ideas, will have to experiment
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aaronpk Catching up...
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Loqi aaronpk: [eddie] left you a message 2 hours, 9 minutes ago: Does webmention.io have any support for Salmention or to start enabling that should I fetch the page contents whenever I get an updated Webmention ping from webmention.io?
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sknebel I'd guess because not every client supports mp-destination, so endpoint and auth header are the two variables to switch on. It also means you can easily connect one client to one channel, which for automated tools like indiepaper makes sense
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aaronpk did you describe the actual user flow you want to see here?
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mayo unrelated question... I've seen some micropub implementation that ask for token server URL in configuration. Is there any reason why they wouldn't extract "me" out of the token and grab the token endpoint from the URL?
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aaronpk Cause adding stuff to specs without it being based in an actual user facing use cases is a great way to make terrible specs
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tantek AKA as plumbing-first design
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aaronpk Tokens don't necessarily have any information in them
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mayo ah ok
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mayo thanks
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aaronpk They are opaque strings to clients, and can be just a random string in many implementations
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mayo makes sense!
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aaronpk I added a Micropub endpoint per Aperture channel because it was immediately useful to me, and could be done without touching the Microsub spec, but I've waited to try to standardize any of that until there are more actual use cases documented
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mayo aaronpk: I think it'm the next usecase :)
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[cleverdevil] (I've been lurking and following along loosely, too, and am interested as I evolve Indiepaper)
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mayo aaronpk: the other question came out of: I already have micropub endpoint. Lot of tools discover micropub from rel=micropub on the site, and don't let me specify my own. If I also have microsub (let's say Aperture), which exposes micropub endpoint to post into channels, I can't easily tell other tools to use that instead of what's in rel=micropub.
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aaronpk What's the user flow
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aaronpk i still haven't heard that
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mayo i log into indiebookclub.biz and want to post "want to read" to one of my microsub channels, followed up my a "finished reading" post to my site.
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aaronpk What posts the "finished reading" post? Wouldn't that be the reader?
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@DakshrajIndia Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet https://goo.gl/pNek95 https://t.co/Or2cp9ui7D (twitter.com/_/status/1021530161370488834)
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snarfed maybe one of the main q's here is, is microsub the appropriate tool to manage arbitrary user-managed lists of items? or is it better off focusing on reading feeds, like traditional feed readers?
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aaronpk I don't think I understand why that's the main question
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snarfed (i have an opinion, but i don't really use microsub at all personally, so i'll abstain)
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tantek__ I still don't understand the use-case / user-flow
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snarfed sounds like mayo wants to use a microsub channel as a to-read list, kind of like a todo list
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tantek__ is it just "I want to post a 'want to read' post"?
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aaronpk > log into indiebookclub.biz and want to post "want to read" to one of my microsub channels, followed up my a "finished reading" post to my site.
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tantek__ or "I want to post a 'finished reading' post"?
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aaronpk post a "want to read" which in the process of doing that actually adds the article to the reader
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aaronpk then posting on your site that you finished reading it when you're done
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tantek__ "which in the process of doing that actually adds the article to the reader" nothing special is needed there if you actually post a "want to read" post to your own site, and your site is subscribed in your reader?
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snarfed an alternative solution would be to post the "want to read" post to your site too, and include those posts in a feed that you then subscribe to in microsub
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aaronpk That makes sense, but the reader is the thing posting the "have read" post and it already would know how to post that to your site
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snarfed ^ right exactly, that
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snarfed (tantek's)
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aaronpk So I don't see why anything else is needed for either spec in either case
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snarfed sound like mayo wants to send the "want to read" directly to a microsub channel, and *not to their site*
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[cleverdevil] Sounds out of scope for microsub, IMO.
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snarfed agreed
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tantek__ a microsub channel provides a view of content hosted elsewhere. it does not host content on its own
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[cleverdevil] Microsub is about aggregating and reading.
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[cleverdevil] Its not an arbitrary data store.
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tantek__ the "want to read" post has to be posted *somewhere*
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tantek__ posted *somewhere* is what micropub does, not microsub
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[cleverdevil] ^
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snarfed ...except aperture technically *is* now a data store, since aaronpk lets it accept micropub requests. that's probably what inspired this.
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tantek__ wat
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[cleverdevil] Yes, that's fair, but that is for the purpose of *reading*.
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[cleverdevil] 🙂
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snarfed hah. intent is tricky.
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[cleverdevil] Indeed.
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sknebel what post isn't for reading? ;)
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sknebel ducks
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aaronpk Yes that's how indiepaper works
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tantek__ uh there's nothing about micropub on https://indieweb.org/Aperture
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[cleverdevil] But, if something isn't ever meant to be read, its just meant to track something, that seems like something that should be in a database.
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gRegorLove /listen? ;)
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tantek__ what is indiepaper
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Loqi Indiepaper is a "read later" service, in the spirit of Instapaper, for the IndieWeb https://indieweb.org/Indiepaper
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gRegorLove ducks x2
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aaronpk It has docs
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tantek__ what is Instapaper
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Loqi Instapaper is a content hosting silo for bookmarks https://indieweb.org/Instapaper
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tantek__ right ^^^ hosting
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aaronpk point is I understand what Mayo wants from the flow and it's already possible
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aaronpk and the other "read later" mechanism Tantek described is theoretical right now, whereas indiepaper's is actually working
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snarfed (tantek: see the API Keys section of https://aperture.p3k.io/docs )
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snarfed i think mayo was asking if this kind of micropub support would be incorporated into the microsub standard, since it's not now
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[cleverdevil] Ah, I see now.
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snarfed ...and most of us think it shouldn't be
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[cleverdevil] I am not sure it *needs* to be part of the standard to be widely adopted by Microsub servers.
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[cleverdevil] The standard doesn't say anything about having a UI for managing your subscriptions, but Aperture has one 🙂
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snarfed the argument for it is portability. that's one of the big reasons to use a standard, but if it's an important part of your workflow, and it's not in the standard, you're not portable
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[cleverdevil] Well, in the case of Indiepaper, you can IndieAuth with any Micropub-compatible service, and save articles to it. That includes Aperture, where it'll publish to a channel, and Micro.blog, where it'll publish to a special feed for you to subscribe to in a reader.
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[cleverdevil] So, no new standards or augmentation to standards was needed in this case to enable a whole new set of functionality.
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snarfed yup. feel free to !tell mayo
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[cleverdevil] 😉
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aaronpk Portability seems pretty low on the priority list if you compare the adoption of our various standards, I'm not quite sure why
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[kevinmarks] Do not put "nonce" in your user facing error messages, given the UK slang meaning https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=nonce&amp=true&defid=3556
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tantek__ Similarly best not to advise people about "parking their domain"
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/_gilpy/status/1014870626643922945?s=19
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@_gilpy When you try to log in to your uni website but it calls you an invalid nonce https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhWLczYWkAIgbux.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/1014870626643922945)
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[kevinmarks] (in US terms that's an error message saying "crippled pedo")
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tantek__ wow
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KartikPrabhu judas priest!
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@JustJenFelice Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet https://tmblr.co/ZNFAay2a6xisb (twitter.com/_/status/1021538011010486272)
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tantek__ hey at least UK has no weird meanings about dogfooding
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tantek__ wow this seems, confusing: "Aperture's API accepts Micropub requests to create content in channels."
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tantek__ aaronpk: when did you decide to make Aperture a content host?
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mayo sorry, i got distrated by work
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GWG I thought that was for notifications
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aaronpk It's not meant to be a content host, although technically you could use it that way
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aaronpk but that's how I get notifications or other content I read into it.
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aaronpk It's often a lot easier to send a post request than to set up a feed that something can pull from
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aaronpk So for example I have little scripts in various places that push data into Aperture channels. These are things like the twitter search script, or notifications from my home automation systems, etc.
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mayo aaronpk: ^^ that's exacly where I was coming from. If I create a "to read" list in my reader. I want to be able to shovel stuff into that list.
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aaronpk often these don't even have a public web address so it would be a ton more work to make them generate a feed that Aperture can subscribe to
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aaronpk mayo: that's what indiepaper does right now
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mayo aaronpk: Right. I was hoping to find a solution (or start a discussion) to make it more seamless than "enter url + auth header". I'm not saying the standard needs to be changed or improved, but being able to say "these are the channels you can post into" and discover and consume them easily (and interoperably) would be nice to have. The ability to add new items into microsub channels ems in addition to just consuming feeds seems like a very natural w
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mayo s/ ems //
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mayo bah, that got cut off... The ability to add new items into microsub channels in addition to just consuming feeds seems like a very natural way of using channels.
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aaronpk Wait have you actually set up indiepaper yet?
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mayo I've played with it, yes
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aaronpk Because you don't have to enter a url and auth header
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aaronpk Thanks to Aperture supporting IndieAuth for channels
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aaronpk What I'm saying is it currently works pretty well, and I still haven't heard a user flow described that would require any changes
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mayo aaronpk: it works if your rel=micropub on my site pointed to aperture. For me, it points to my own micropub server.
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aaronpk No that's not true
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aaronpk You enter aperture.p3k.io when you configure indiepaper and then you can keep your site pointing to its own Micropub endpoint
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mayo Ah ok. That I didn't know.
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mayo ok, that makes all sense now!
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gRegorLove Ah, so indiepaper isn't creating a post on your own site, just posting directly into Aperture?
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mayo gregorLove: that's correct
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gRegorLove Interesting.
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aaronpk As we discovered early on, it's really weird when indiepaper creates a public post on your website
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mayo I think about it just like adding things to "read later" category in any feed reader. I'm not making the posts public, I'm keeping a list for later. Once I read the post, I can choose to post about it.
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aaronpk it's really only using Micropub because it is an existing mechanism and vocabulary but I could have made up a new api for that
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gRegorLove That's an interesting use-case for indiebookclub, though with Aperture the want-to-reads in the channel would disappear after 7 days
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aaronpk Yep which is why I might eventually add paid plans ;-)
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mayo gRegorLove: not if I run my own, or implement my own microsub server
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aaronpk Or hopefully someone else will go make another server
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gRegorLove mayo: There is a request for visibility setting on indiebookclub that I plan to implement, so the posts could be private or unlisted on your site.
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mayo aaronpk: I like the fact it's micropub, because there are host of tools out there that can readili be used