#dev 2018-07-29

2018-07-29 UTC
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@piyush_iway1994 https://aaronparecki.com/2018/06/30/11/your-first-webmention (twitter.com/_/status/1023377686377390082)
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@Nexstair Enabling Better Communication on the Internet · "An A List Apart Article" #Webmentions @mentions #internetproblem Via : https://goo.gl/awxBaa Via : https://goo.gl/awxBaa (twitter.com/_/status/1023384614503702529)
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kicks /3/
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Loqi kicks: pstuifzand left you a message on 2018-06-30 at 6:28pm UTC: It would be nice if the posts in the sub of indieweb.xyz could also marked-up with microformats (like news.indieweb) then we can load them in the Microsub readers and respond from there.
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@rubygems authorization-endpoint (0.1.1): Discover a URL’s authorization endpoint for use with Micropub and IndieAuth clients. https://rubygems.org/gems/authorization-endpoint (twitter.com/_/status/1023420809283600384)
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@rubygems token-endpoint (0.1.1): Discover a URL’s token endpoint for use with Micropub and IndieAuth clients. https://rubygems.org/gems/token-endpoint (twitter.com/_/status/1023421127996125185)
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@rubygems webmention-endpoint (1.0.1): Discover a URL’s Webmention endpoint. https://rubygems.org/gems/webmention-endpoint (twitter.com/_/status/1023421295583809536)
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@yatil Started moving my blog to @getkirby last weekend. The Wordpress export lost so much fidelity, I basically have to check every article. Also mark German/English languages by hand. Several things still missing, like OpenID (as a provider), might need to resort to IndieAuth. :-/ (twitter.com/_/status/1023540601265025024)
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[miklb] 😂 https://github.com/wprig/wprig/issues/67#issuecomment-408667924
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Loqi [GitaStreet] Not sure the Webmentions differ so much from the pingbacks and trackbacks already available in WordPress Core: https://codex.wordpress.org/Introduction_to_Blogging#Managing_Comments In the WordPress admin panel - go to: Settings > Discussion ...
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[miklb] this link https://github.com/wprig/wprig/issues/67#issuecomment-408667924
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Loqi [GitaStreet] Not sure the Webmentions differ so much from the pingbacks and trackbacks already available in WordPress Core: https://codex.wordpress.org/Introduction_to_Blogging#Managing_Comments In the WordPress admin panel - go to: Settings > Discussion ...
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[miklb] granted, that’s not from the devs of the theme, but…
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[miklb] do we have a boilerplate response to that misconception?
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aaronpk Which misconception?
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[miklb] pingbacks & trackbacks are good enough™
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[miklb] or don’t differ from webmentions
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[miklb] I mean, my gut response is to ask if they read the A List Apart article, but that’s not nice.
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aaronpk That's not entirely incorrect tho. Webmention has a few technical advancements over pingback, but really the thing that makes it work is microformats, which also works over pingback
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[cleverdevil] So, I implemented "On This Day" for my wife's Micro.blog site!
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[cleverdevil] http://cleverangel.org/on-this-day/
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[cleverdevil] I did it in such a way that it could be reusable for anyone who has an h-feed of all their content.
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[cleverdevil] In this case, it loads some javascript from a web service I built, which then sends a request to the user's '/archive' page (which it figures out based upon the HTTP Referer), and it parses the h-feed with mf2py, and then fetches the content for each, sends it back in JSON, and the JavaScript injects it back into the page.
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[miklb] aaronpk interesting
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[miklb] seems I need to revisit the current state of WP and mf2 parsers. I feel like I’m operating on outdated information.
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KartikPrabhu [miklb]: this has very little to do with the state of mf2 parsers. Both webmention and linkback/trackback send pings to the original post. What you do with that ping is then the crucial point.
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[miklb] there were some inherent issues with the old mf1 in WP core and why a plugin can’t be used. I honestly don’t know if that’s still the case.
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[miklb] the situation with WP and mf2 is at a critical point. If we don’t find a solution fast, adoption may never come. IMVHO
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KartikPrabhu mf1 does not have a lot of properties needed for "nicely" parsing the page like "in-reply-to" and what I recall WP did not want mf2 in their stuffs
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KartikPrabhu but you can still parse mf1
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[miklb] no, the argument was they didn’t want to remove old mf1 because people use it for styling hooks in themes.
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KartikPrabhu <sigh>
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[miklb] yep
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KartikPrabhu anyway, what WP does is their problem
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[miklb] sure, if you don’t really care if IW becomes widely adopted
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KartikPrabhu adpotion of indieweb is not dependent on one player like WP
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KartikPrabhu if it is then that is a sad situation
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[miklb] we will have to agree to disagree with that statement. Like it or not, it’s the elephant in the room.
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KartikPrabhu so if WP does not adopt mf2 we will all give up on indieweb?
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[miklb] re-read what I typed
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[miklb] In my very humble opinion, if a solution to WordPress and microformats2 in themes isn’t solved soon, we will loose wider adoption in WordPress.
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[miklb] and by just raw user numbers, that’s a lot of potential users of the internet.
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[miklb] I have been trying to find said solution, but I feel like I need to revisit the current state of affairs, because I’m not 100% I’m solving the right problem anymore.
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[miklb] ^attempting to solve
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KartikPrabhu I think GWG once tried getting mf2 into WP so he might know better
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@neth_6 Will be talking about 'The Many Flavors of OAuth' at https://www.apidays.co/sanfrancisco including brief overview of identity layers #openidconnect #oidc, and #IndieAuth. Use code 'Soonhin' to get free tix. @aaronpk thanks for https://aaronparecki.com/2018/07/07/7/oauth-for-the-open-web. (twitter.com/_/status/1023608398263148546)
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[snarfed] cleverdevil++ for the cleverangel.org domain
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Loqi cleverdevil has 39 karma in this channel (118 overall)
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[snarfed] random coincidence, for the last 20y or so, my personal computer's hostname has been either hell, heaven, or purgatory
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[miklb] were you a fan of the Atlanta Masquerade 😄
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[snarfed] never heard of it, will look it up
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[miklb] was a club with 3 floors. Heaven, hell and purgatory. Themed accordingly with different music, etc.
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[snarfed] 💯
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[cleverdevil] I used to go to the Masquerade all the time when I lived in Atlanta miklb 😀
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[cleverdevil] I’m going to toss the code up for the On this Day feature a bit later today. Anyone with a Micro.blog site should be able to use it though without having to write or deploy any code. Just copy paste a few lines into their site.
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[cleverdevil] Of course, Micro.blog hasn’t been around very long so most people won’t have much content there.
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[cleverdevil] (Unless they migrate their Instagram and Facebook content!)
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tantek__ !tell KartikPrabhu re: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-07-29/1532881135924700 - that's inaccurate. There's no such thing as a "linkback" (it's a made-up umbrella term AFAIK, not a specific technology), and trackback is not "just a ping" - it sends the full payload (which is why it was even spammier).
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi tantek__: jeremych- left you a message 2 days, 1 hour ago: Rebecca Blood was an early influence on my web presence and then she sort of drifted off.
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Loqi [KartikPrabhu] [miklb]: this has very little to do with the state of mf2 parsers. Both webmention and linkback/trackback send pings to the original post. What you do with that ping is then the crucial point.
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aaronpk the first indie comment thread happened via pingback + mf2 tho :)
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GWG MF2 into WordPress...rejected
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GWG By the way, has anyone done a good writeup on their micro.blog integration? I want to attract some of those people
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tantek__ aaronpk, too bad that original post (where the first indie comment thread happened) is offine (only in internet archive) :(
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aaronpk yea :(
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tantek__ also the first indie comment thread via webmention
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tantek__ IDK when the second indie commen thread via webmention was, but the first indie event with indie RSVPs was only two weeks later!
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tantek__ all linked to here: https://indieweb.org/timeline#2013
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tantek__ if anyone knows when the second indie comment thread via webmention happened (hopefully still online), please add it1
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[miklb] tantek yes the state of mf2 parsers is important because if we don’t know exactly what needs to be changed now, vs when some of the fallback stuff was added, then working against yourself
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[miklb] how would I go about determining in a perfect world what changes need to be made in WP core to be mf2 compliant. That’s an honest question.
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[miklb] guess I could just use my current content with default theme and start running through parsers and editing code. But I’m not confident in reading the parsed output to know if it’s correct.
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sknebel [miklb]: I'm always happy to help with the reading part. + at least for the basics (articles, notes) should be documented well enough, and/or you can compare with other sites one can probably trust on having it right
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sknebel or you post few examples posts here and ask folks to write down what the output should look like for you/where properties could be added
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[miklb] sknebel++
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Loqi sknebel has 40 karma in this channel (119 overall)
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gRegorLove Re: that first indie comment thread, I remember implementing webmentions in Nucleus and then realizing that article had to use pingback, so adding that as the fallback.
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gRegorLove https://gregorlove.com/2014/02/a-test-reply/
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[miklb] I don’t believe a mf2 validator exists, am I mistaken?
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[miklb] like feed it a url and get a ✅ this is valid mf2, or shows where the errors are.
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[snarfed] linter, more like... but agreed, good idea
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[cleverdevil] What is on this day?
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Loqi on this day is a feature on some silos and indieweb sites which show posts published on the current (typically Gregorian) day of the year in previous years; commons sites tend to show more general historical events that occurred on that same day https://indieweb.org/on_this_day
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[cleverdevil] on this day << https://github.com/cleverdevil/micromemories
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Loqi ok, I added "https://github.com/cleverdevil/micromemories" to the "See Also" section of /on_this_day https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=50380&oldid=50333
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Loqi [cleverdevil] micromemories: Add an "On This Day" feature to a Micro.blog website
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[kevinmarks] Indiewebify.me is a narrow validator
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[kevinmarks] In that it points out missing things
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loqi.me edited /Gutenberg (+64) "dougbeal added "http://johnjohnston.info/blog/tag/gutenberg/" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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aaronpk [miklb]: do you mean validating the mf2 html? would that compare against known vocabularies like h-entry?
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[miklb] yes and yes
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[miklb] I’m just thinking, if one could point to a url and see the parsed results in human readable language, it might make it easier to demonstrate what is broken with WP themes for instance. I learned a whole lot of HTML by simply running my stuff through a validator and being shown where the nesting issue was.
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[cleverdevil] Hey, cool, the "on this day" generator worked on Manton's own Micro.blog site the first time he tried it!
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[cleverdevil] I love it when a plan comes together 😛
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk [miklb]: yeah that's a trick. i'm not even sure what results would make sense to see to help debug tho.
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aaronpk do you have a sense of what in particular you'd want it to look like?
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[miklb] lol
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aaronpk there's a mental leap to go from html -> mf2 json, and I don't have an idea of how to visually describe that leap in a validator
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[miklb] a start might just be something that could give you a preview of what it would look like syndicated/as a reply maybe?
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aaronpk I could definitely make something that says "here is a property in your mf2 json that shouldn't be there", but it wouldn't be immediately obvious *how* it got there from the HTML
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[miklb] or to test some HTML to see how it would parse as one of those things. I’m just lobbing ideas.
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aaronpk yeah that's kind of what I do with XRay
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[miklb] I believe that could be achieved with Gutenberg.
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aaronpk i've been considering making another thing that takes the XRay parsed result and turns it into nice looking HTML, the way a comment or post would show up
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aaronpk I guess i've done most of that work already now in Monocle, so probably wouldn't take long to throw it together
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[miklb] but that goes back to what in core is the main thing we would like changed/fixed so every theme has to jump through hoops to look decent after parsing.
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[miklb] every theme doesn’t have to jump
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[snarfed] recent examples where an mf2 linter could help: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/822
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Loqi [khurtwilliams] #822 Bridgy posting images and text to Twitter and Facebook but not link back to post
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aaronpk [snarfed]: what output from a linter in particular would help you here?
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gRegorLove My impression is WP core shouldn't add any mf1/mf2, leave it to themes.
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[miklb] or a plugin at that point might work for basic support, as long there are filters everywhere needed.
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gRegorLove Something that seems unavoidable is other plugins hooking into the_content() to add stuff which is not authored content, so if that's wrapped in e-content, more stuff will be parsed than desired.
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[snarfed] [aaronpk] that url properties should be URLs
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aaronpk hm, without knowledge of the vocabulary, a consumer doesn't know whether a value should be a URL, since the mf2 prefix is dropped in the parsing stage.
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aaronpk so this would only be caught by a validator that is checking against the h-entry vocab
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[snarfed] right, hence that this would be a linter, not a validator ... but for a longer to know vocab, and say hey, url should be URLs, seems reasonable
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[snarfed] s/longer/linter/
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aaronpk i'm confused about the use of the term "linter" here
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[snarfed] validator to me implies an explicit spec, and a correctness judgment, which afaik we don't quite have here?
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[snarfed] but we can say, hey, this is probably not what you want
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aaronpk oh, well if you're talking about a vocabulary then there is an element of correctness to judge against
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[snarfed] ah ok. h-entry etc? than sure, we could call it a validator
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aaronpk I was assuming that a linter would look at the HTML, see that there's a u-* property on an <li> element, and see that there is no nested h-* object inside of that, and point out the error
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aaronpk doesn't need vocab knowledge to see that mistake
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[snarfed] ah yeah. sure that too maybe, but agreed, that's a different class of "help"
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[snarfed] i don't feel strongly about any of this, so i should probably demur
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aaronpk whereas if you're looking at the parsed mf2 JSON, you need vocab knowledge to notice there's a problem
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sknebel u on li is also a "looks dodgy", not "is wrong" case
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aaronpk well, u-* on li without a nested object inside is wrong
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sknebel no
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[miklb] starting to feel this is a little less about WordPress
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aaronpk hm, I guess you could have a URL in a text value of an HTML node
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aaronpk but that definitely falls into the "looks dodgy" territory even if it's technically correct
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[snarfed] yup definitely not WordPress specific
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aaronpk so, according to this issue https://github.com/microformats/microformats2-parsing/issues/10 which has a pending PR in the php parser, that would actually end up making the parsed mf2 json of this post in question look like it has valid URLs
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Loqi [Zegnat] #10 u- parsing should always do relative URL resolution
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aaronpk the url property would end up being e.g. "https://example.com/permalink/Twitter" where it is currently just "Twitter"
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aaronpk which means something validating from the mf2 json wouldn't know there was a problem at all
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aaronpk and it would take extra knowledge about *how* that value was obtained from the HTML in order to notice the problem. e.g. that <li> elements usually wouldn't have a u-* class.
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[snarfed] heh fair enough
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sknebel hm, somewhere I should still have notes about a HTML-to-microformats visualizer, can't remember if there was a specific reason for me abandoning it other than just "this seems like a ton of work for something of middling usefulness"
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sknebel another idea: there's a bunch of CSS-based HTML "linters" for things like accessibility attributes, that you just load into an existing page and they highlight stuff
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sknebel that could be kinda neat for a tool to answer "where are attributes coming from"
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[snarfed] sknebel++ i like it
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Loqi sknebel has 41 karma in this channel (120 overall)
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[miklb] to that end, I wonder if a set of CSS rules to highlight each element and how they are interconnected in a bookmarklet
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[miklb] so if something is supposed to be nested inside something, but it’s floating out on its own, you can visualize.
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[miklb] probably could create a WP plugin to do that for previews before publishing 🤔
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[miklb] heh, but still feels like a hack compared to figuring out the root problem.
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aaronpk okay, i'm trying something new
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aaronpk my post permalinks now have a rel=alternate link to an mf2 and jf2 JSON version of the post
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snarfed ooh nice
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GWG aaronpk: That is an interesting idea.
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aaronpk e.g. https://aaronparecki.com/2018/07/24/23/ => https://aaronparecki.com/2018/07/24/23.json https://aaronparecki.com/2018/07/24/23.jf2
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GWG Did I miss a sea change?
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] that feeling when you swear you sent an email the other day but you can't find it in your sent folder
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snarfed maybe even also AS2? since you must be generating it for AP?
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aaronpk oh yeah I should add that
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[cleverdevil] Was someone talking about mf2py performance improvements the other day?
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Loqi misses a sea change too
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snarfed [cleverdevil]: yes :(
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snarfed i need to start an issue. in the meantime, https://snarfed.org/mf2py_104_to_head.png and https://snarfed.org/mf2py_104_to_head_2.png show the mf2py perf regression btw 1.0.4 and 1.1.1
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snarfed (upgraded 7/24 3:30pm)
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GWG So, I have to read up? Did we decide to distribute alternate versions?
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[cleverdevil] Interesting.
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[cleverdevil] This is relevant for the on-this-day thingy I just built.
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[cleverdevil] Its complicated by the fact that Lambda apparently doesn't support ProcessPoolExecutor concurrent futures 😛
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GWG snarfed: By the way, I finished all the unit tests and upgraded the authorization code. Need to adjust the file upload code and this might be ready to merge
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snarfed GWG: great!
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aaronpk and now as2 URLs https://aaronparecki.com/2018/07/24/23.as2
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snarfed aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 165 karma in this channel (1689 overall)
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snarfed GWG: let me know when. no hurry
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aaronpk my mf2 and jf2 ones are generated from the microformats parser and XRay respectively. I just run my HTML output through the parsers.
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GWG snarfed: I see the finish line
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GWG snarfed: I'm eager to cross it
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snarfed i know the feeling! just remember, writing the code is just the first 10%. bug fixing, tuning, optimizing, maintaining for years to come is the other 90%
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GWG snarfed: I have a lot of things that I'm hoping this will help in people having trouble using it category.
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GWG And a few more planned
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snarfed GWG++
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Loqi gwg has 45 karma in this channel (393 overall)
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GWG That's why I did another upgrade of the auth code
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aaronpk so my question for wordpress folks: is this rel=alternate thing a viable option that a wordpress plugin could generate for each post?
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GWG aaronpk: Yes, if someone consumed it
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GWG pfefferle already has an experimental plugin for that
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aaronpk oh?
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GWG https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-uf2-feed
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Loqi [pfefferle] wordpress-uf2-feed: Microformats2 Feed for WordPress URLs
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aaronpk "The plugin is inspired by the URL design of p3k of @aaronpk." 😂 full circle
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GWG It would need some attention to get out.
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GWG But who would consume it?
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aaronpk well if all the plugin is doing is parsing the HTML of the page, then it doesn't actually solve anything since it still relies on the theme having microformats
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GWG aaronpk: That's the upgrade
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GWG Both snarfed and I store mf2 prefixed properties in post meta
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GWG And post kinds has a class that converts the post object to mf2
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dougbeal Seems like they would be handy in a client, like Quill would suck in all the meta data as well as the current post when editing
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aaronpk i'm going to work on getting XRay to look for that rel=alternate
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aaronpk oh I forgot xray is already 80% there
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[jgmac1106] Not to derail conversation but feel free to answer later [aaronpk] with talk of Flickr photos have titles whereas Instagram doesn't and current photo post type recommends no title
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[jgmac1106] Could title be a dilineator between u-featured?
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aaronpk what does title have to do with featured?
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[jgmac1106] Well thinking if you title a photo you are featuring it and just trying to make sure I properly add mf2 with photos that have titles... And often title my photos
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aaronpk hm no that's not what "featured" means
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[jgmac1106] ... But yeah as I type I get your point. Featured image to me would be whatever pic I stick in my Twitter cards for each page
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aaronpk yeah
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[miklb] [jgmac1106] I use `u-featured` on my WP featured post because I don’t post photos as the featured image of the post. Currently.
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kicks aaronpk++ on the json version of your posts
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Loqi aaronpk has 166 karma in this channel (1690 overall)
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[miklb] but looking at the way the photos are sideloaded and attached and displayed in the gallery shortcode by default, that doesn’t work, because the `u-featured` gets added along with `u-photo`
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[miklb] grr. featured image
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[jgmac1106] Okay thx, that explains a alot
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[miklb] what I wrote sounds confusing. Currently, I only use the featured image in WP on articles. Thus why I apply the `u-featured` class to that. But when a photo gets sideloaded and displayed with the gallery shortcode my function applies the class to what should only be u-photo.
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[miklb] I haven’t investigated narrowing the filter.
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GWG Should I have my parsing code look for rel alternate
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aaronpk GWG: you've got enough on your plate right now, don't bother with this just yet :)
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snarfed aaronpk++
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snarfed focus++
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Loqi focus has 1 karma
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GWG aaronpk, I was going to open the issue to remind myself
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GWG Wasn't going to work on it
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GWG I have a project to finish with Micropub and Indieauth
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GWG The jsonfeed plugin for WordPress does individual posts
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aaronpk orly
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aaronpk I thought jsonfeed wasn't defined for individual posts
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GWG It isn't.
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GWG Side effect
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aaronpk odd
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GWG https://david.shanske.com/2018/07/16/an-indieweb-podcast-episode-8-interflux/feed/json
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GWG Add feed/json on any site with the plugin to any link
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[miklb] TIL
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aaronpk there's a rel=alternate to that too
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aaronpk tho it uses the "application/json" type which is a bit unfortunate that jsonfeed claimed that entire media type
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aaronpk oh wait the rel=alternate goes to your home page feed
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aaronpk hm that's awkward
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GWG I asked Manton to let me help him with the plugin
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[jgmac1106] [miklb] thanks I was also asking for plain HTML pages, like each module page. I usually put my first image as the Twitter card but can have u-featured there, as it would be outside h-entry. So nested in h-entry thought about u-featured on same img
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[jgmac1106] Meant can't have u-featured there... Realized I never tested what happens when I add u-featured to an h-entry on Twitter.... Wonder if image posts....new task
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[miklb] Twitter cards is nothing I’ve paid attention to. I have a basic OG plugin and that’s about all I’ve thought about it. I’d be no help there.
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[jgmac1106] But thx for understanding on how u-featured and shortcodes work on portfolio views
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[miklb] that’s only if you’ve added that snippet of mine that [chrisaldrich] has linked to.
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[jgmac1106] Yeah gonna do that
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[miklb] but you don’t want u-featured and u-photo on the same image. That’s what I’ve failed to explain.
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[jgmac1106] Also thinking philosophically about photo post types, is there a difference with a photo shared on Instagram versus one shared on Flickr.. Beyond the title.. When does a photo become more than a photo and more "art"
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aaronpk is there a practical reason to make that distinction?
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aaronpk a lot of people treat their instagram photos as artwork too
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[jgmac1106] Well what if I could syndicate to deviantart.org...and dribble, and art on Instagram... Yeah better for philosophy discussion than markup
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snarfed ok if we're really trying to answer "what is art?" in #indieweb-dev...that's, um, kinda surreal
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aaronpk 😂
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snarfed [jgmac1106]++ yuuuup
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tantek__ [jgmac1106]: sounds like a distinction you could make just using (hash)tags
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tantek__ i.e. post on your own site using whatever categorization (art, photo, design) etc. that you come up with, then use your own code to conditionally syndicate to destinations based on presence/absence of those tag
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tantek__ s
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[jgmac1106] That was other thing I was thinking why do we need all these post kinds when hashtags and tags will do
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tantek__ no need for further post type distinction, as how you display / interact with those on your own site are all similar enough to just make them all a photo
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[miklb] [jgmac1106] a common high level taxonomy
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aaronpk that was my question about whether there is a practical difference
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[jgmac1106] Just whether I can title a photo post type when syndicating to Twitter, not sure if better mf comment and trying how to figure out correct markup for an img if is is img in my Twitter card... Which I see as featured
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[jgmac1106] Meant better discussion for mf2 channel and meant syndication to flickr
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[miklb] you don’t have to use the post kind plugin for photo posts. A note is still an h-entry with a u-photo in it. I’ve been doing that since I switched to WP. I’m just now exploring other ways of doing it.
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tantek__ [jgmac1106]: it's pretty clear from Instagram's UI evolution, or I should say, their evolving of photo posting / sharing UI, there is no title
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[jgmac1106] Worse autocorrect ever literally switched brands
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aaronpk lol
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[jgmac1106] But every flickr photo does
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tantek__ there is only the first "comment" made by the author
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tantek__ which maps much better to the (hyper)text "content" of the photo post
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[jgmac1106] That makes sense. Also thinking about photo attribution and whether or not I should just ignore mf2 or add the h-card for photographer and p-name on photo title
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tantek__ [jgmac1106]: do you mean posting someone else's photo?
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tantek__ that sounds like a repost
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[jgmac1106] Like I do on here... Ignore the bad css grid http://edu-522.glitch.me/
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Loqi EDU 522: Digital Teaching and Learning Too