#dev 2018-08-13

2018-08-13 UTC
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[tantek] Is the old syntax deprecated?
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GWG How many different times we have to call that conditional
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gRegorLove You could wrap it in a function call for easier re-use
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GWG gRegorLove: I think it was just PHP frustration
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gRegorLove `function foo('key', $default)`
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gRegorLove Understood. It is frustrating :)
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gRegorLove Er, guess you'd need the array as a param too, heh
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KartikPrabhu mf2py does similar things for python 2.7/3 support
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gRegorLove I'm finally working on splitting out favorites and photos (and probably replies) from my notes stream. I think I'm going to do a channels thing similar to p3k.
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gRegorLove Partly so I can construct newsletters with or without certain posts more easily.
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GWG snarfed: Apparently, your frustration is shared with other PHP users.
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gRegorLove work in progress: https://gregorlove.com/channels/stars/
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aaronpk If you mean the literal definition of deprecated then yes
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aaronpk But it will probably never be dropped from the language
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[manton] Anyone ever use this command-line Micropub client? https://github.com/cweiske/shpub
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Loqi [cweiske] shpub: command line micropub client
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[manton] It doesn't seem compatible with Micro.blog's IndieAuth endpoint since shpub sends a redirect_uri of 127.0.0.1. Doesn't appear to be whitelisted in a <link> tag anywhere either.
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KartikPrabhu ha! new spam ^
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cweiske ascii art spam
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Zegnat cweiske, did you see [manton] mentioning shpub doesn’t work with Micro.blog?
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cweiske no
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cweiske I don't think this is an issue with shpub
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cweiske but with micro.blog
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Zegnat “It doesn't seem compatible with Micro.blog's IndieAuth endpoint since shpub sends a redirect_uri of 127.0.0.1. Doesn't appear to be whitelisted in a <link> tag anywhere either”
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Zegnat Possibly
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cweiske "The client SHOULD publish one or more <link> tags or Link HTTP headers with a rel attribute of redirect_uri at the client_id URL."
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cweiske This is not possible, unless I publish a list of the whole internet (all IPs) in combination with all ports
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Zegnat Hmm, I thought we had discussed a possible solution for this case
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cweiske 127.0.0.1 is not always used. when you ssh onto a server and run shpub there, the server's public IP is used.
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cweiske https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2017-12-05/1512482596939800
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Loqi [Zegnat] If local shpub knows its own IP and port, it could theoretically already set client_id to shpub.com/?port=1111&ip=127.0.0.1 and have shpub.com serve a dynamic redirect_uri value.
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cweiske https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2017-12-05#t1512482596939800
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Loqi [Zegnat] If local shpub knows its own IP and port, it could theoretically already set client_id to shpub.com/?port=1111&ip=127.0.0.1 and have shpub.com serve a dynamic redirect_uri value.
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Zegnat Yeah, I was just looking through the logs myself :)
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cweiske one solution would be to allow all "redirect_uri" by adding a special tag on the client_id page
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cweiske <link rel="redirect_uri" href="*"/>
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cweiske but that is a) non-standard and b) needs server support
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Zegnat Yes. Interesting though.
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Zegnat Basically a way for a client to explicitly state that it doesn’t know what the redirect_uri is going to be, so it requests everything to be OK.
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Zegnat I have filed the idea for a wildcard redirect_uri, cweiske :) https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth/issues/22
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Loqi [Zegnat] #22 Allow clients to set wildcard redirect_uri values.
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cweiske Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 52 karma in this channel over the last year (142 in all channels)
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Zegnat I do wonder if that would make it easier for attackers to intercept the redirect, and thus intercept the auth code ... maybe that would be a reason to support https://www.oauth.com/oauth2-servers/pkce/ on IndieAuth ... needs more thinking
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petermolnar for those who like maps: https://opensource.com/article/18/8/keplergl
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petermolnar I'm clicking through some of the indie webring pages, and while I'm surprised on the amount of good photos I'm finding, I'm also surprised a bit on the two polar endpoints of performance I'm finding: either very snappy, very small sites, though some of them could do with some kind of indication for link vs text ( http://sawv.org/ ) or fascinatingly underoptimised ones, eg: https://oyam.ca/blog/archive.html - a single page for 10 y
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petermolnar ears of posts, resulting in 53MB in images.
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Loqi [jr] JR's Notes
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jmac.org edited /Plerd (-3) (view diff)
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skippy good day.
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/mf2tests/
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ben_thatmustbeme in case people missed it amongst the spam in #microformats
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skippy welp, my micropub endpoint is broken in fun new ways. it works for the bulk of what i do, but fun new bugs crop up when i try something new!
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[grantcodes] !tell cleverdevil Yeah it's a bit iffy for me too. Don't know if anyone knows any other image proxy services that support resizing on the fly like that
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel details what you are looking for?
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NinjaTrappeur Hey aaronpk,
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aaronpk good morning
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Loqi rise and shine!
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NinjaTrappeur I'm the guy who implements webmentions for lobsters, I am wondering if you plan to change your ruby webmention client architecture anytime soon
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NinjaTrappeur more specially if I can safely use the discover_webmention_endpoint_from_html (and http equivalent) safely
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NinjaTrappeur good morning :) (it is actually 6pm in my timezone ><)
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Pilfers ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­ ­
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aaronpk ah yeah, jgarber was working on some updates to that recently, he's taking over maintaining it
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aaronpk he was working on splitting out the discovery code into its own gem, and making that backwards compatible with this one
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NinjaTrappeur yeah, I've just seen that :) https://rubygems.org/gems/webmention-endpoint
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aaronpk tho it looks like that one doesn't do discovery from an HTML string, it expects to be able to fetch the URL itself?
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NinjaTrappeur Yup, that's my problem, this does not really fit my workflow... I'm gonna read further to see if I can trivially expose a way to "plug" my HTML. I guess it'll still gonna need to get the HTTP headers from one way or another.
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NinjaTrappeur Webmentions discovery is not as trivial to implement as I first thought :)
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aaronpk well to answer your first question, i don't think we're planning on changing that gem's API, anything we do will be internal refactors
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NinjaTrappeur Alright, thanks
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Zegnat Ooh, I hadn’t seen that webmention gem. Now I feel like making a PHP package like that one that just does endpoint discovery
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@DesignHammer An informative article on the evolution of internet communication (@mentions). In his latest blog post for A List Apart, Chris Aldrich provides an overview of Webmentions as well as starting point for adding the new protocol to projects. #webmentions http://ow.ly/v4lQ50idd5V (twitter.com/_/status/1029040967251382272)
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[Petrk] Hello, Im new here and have recently read about IndieAuth.
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[Petrk] I could test the function on IndieLogin.com and it works well, but now I want to implement it as provider and how to make it work with applications where login information are requested. But I dont know how to work with POST requests and how to verify it. With cURL I could test in my terminal, but I dont know how to make that work in productive way. I hope you can help
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[Petrk] https://indieauth.com/developers
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Loqi Using IndieAuth.com to sign users in to your website
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aaronpk hi [Peterk]
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[Petrk] Hello [aaronpk]
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aaronpk there are some implementation guides for being a provider linked from here https://indieweb.org/Category:IndieAuth
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aaronpk in particular, https://indieweb.org/authorization-endpoint and https://indieweb.org/token-endpoint
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[Petrk] yes I have tested it
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[Petrk] Maybe I should explain what Im looking for
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[Petrk] I want to build up a regional digitalization network for companies and people who provide own web services like blogs, information sites etc. For that I want to set up a Identity service for free, no costs, no commercialization. I have made first trials with simpleID for openID, but the protocol seems to be nearly dead(?), OAuth2 were better, but its harder to setup, more complex and I dont have a server to provide it independent from another co
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[Petrk] found IndieAuth and it seems to be really easy to use, but I dont know how to use it after I get the code from callback and how to implement this in application like nextcloud, humhumb, rocket.chat, friendica, etc... I joined the slack channel here, because I hope I can talk and get help from people who have more experience in it.
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aaronpk hm, if you're trying to get people to be able to log in to things like nextcloud, that's going to require quite a bit of work to modify that software to work with it
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[Petrk] what were possible?
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[Petrk] I mean IndieAuth work, but the problem is the integration in services, if no "client" in popular software is using IndieAuth, how it can be used?
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Zegnat [Petrk], the services that are interested in allowing people to login with IndieAuth will have to add that capability to their software. You’d want to ask Nextcloud to support it, or built a plugin for Nextcloud, if that is what you are after.
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[Petrk] Ok, due my lack in experience in programming such things, I think only openid stay here as solution, right?
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Zegnat That depends. Did you check that Nextcloud / Humhumb / RocketChat / Friendica / etc all support OpenID? If they do not, that will give you the same issue
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aaronpk the other problem with openid is there are basically no providers left
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[Petrk] @Zegnat, Nextcloud provide a plugin, humhub has developer instructions, rocketchat provide that as in work in github issues, friendica provide openid natively
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[Petrk] [aaronpk] thats why I would choose simpleID as provider
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Zegnat Sounds like you have done your research then [Petrk] :)
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[Petrk] I just hoped to use IndieAuth, due its look better and more userfriendly
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[Petrk] but even so, I still dont know how to use it after the login code was successful
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aaronpk well you have to check that the code is valid by sending a POST request with the code back to indieauth.com, like described on that page
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aaronpk how you do that is very dependent on what language you're using to write this code in
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[Petrk] ok, lets say php, this should work everywhere
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aaronpk sure, so you can search for how to make a post request in PHP and find examples
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[Petrk] but I could not find any documentation how to check this and how to forward than to the site
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Zegnat [Petrk], you can have a look at https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-client-php which implements every step of the login in PHP
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Loqi [indieweb] indieauth-client-php: Sample implementation and helper methods for an IndieAuth client.
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loqi.me created /Sched (+155) "prompted by [chrisaldrich] and dfn added by [chrisaldrich]" (view diff)
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kaja.sknebel.net edited /Sched (+1) "linkify ('x is y. <url>.' pattern)" (view diff)
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[Petrk] @Zegnat, thanks, this looks really interesting
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boffosocko.com uploaded /File:sched_RSVP_facepile.PNG "UI example of how events on Sched use facepiles to indicate attendees. Each avatar is linked to the attendees' profile on the service. https://indieweb.org/File:sched_RSVP_facepile.PNG"
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boffosocko.com edited /Sched (+683) "prompted by [chrisaldrich] added detail, see also, pagelogo, UI example of RSVP" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com uploaded /File:Meetup_event_rsvp_page.PNG "UI Example of the RSVP section of atttendees to an indivisual event. https://indieweb.org/File:Meetup_event_rsvp_page.PNG"
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boffosocko.com uploaded /File:meetup_RSVP_example.PNG "Example of Attendees standalone page for Meetup.com. Uses separate tabs for attending or not. https://indieweb.org/File:meetup_RSVP_example.PNG"
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boffosocko.com edited /rsvps (+787) "Sched silo example; Meetup.com example" (view diff)
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[eddie] aaronpk: I’m thinking through steps regarding detecting and sending responses to ActivityPub posts. Let me know how this measures up to yours. Seems like what I’m thinking is: 1) Fetch the targetUrl as JSON, if that fails it’s not ActivityPub. 2) If you receive a response, check for @context to contain “https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams” in the response data to verify it’s ActivityPub. 3) Check the attributedTo variable to retrie
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[eddie] authorUrl as JSON in order to get the inbox
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aaronpk something got cut off
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aaronpk what's 3?
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[eddie] oops darn bridge. lol
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[eddie] 3) Check the attributedTo variable to retrieve the author’s url 4) Fetch authorUrl as JSON in order to get the inbox
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[eddie] Then the final, obvious 5) send response to inbox
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aaronpk that sounds about right. some notes
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aaronpk @context can be either a string or array, so keep that in mind
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aaronpk some servers will only give you back the JSON result if you send "Accept: application/activity+json" or "application/ld+json"
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[eddie] Ahh gotcha. Those are two good potential gotchas
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aaronpk sending replies is a bit tricky because you need to also include a "Mention" in the tags array, and also you need to include the person's "preferredUsername" in the post text for mastodon to show it as a notification
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[eddie] Do you know if activity or ld is “preferred”
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aaronpk i've only been sending "activity", someone else told me that some servers also respond to "ld"
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aaronpk also apparently "attributedTo" *can* be an object, although I don't think I've encountered that yet
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snarfed feel free to compare against bridgy fed's logic too. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/blob/master/webmention.py#L69-L171
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[eddie] I’m thinking I’ll try to document some of this as I go. Should I do that on /ActivityPub? or some other page?
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aaronpk on /ActivityPub sounds good
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aaronpk do you already have the http signature stuff figured out?
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[eddie] I am in process of that. I have my pem files, and I installed a node.js signing library
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aaronpk cool. that was also a bit of a trick to figure out exactly what mastodon wanted.
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aaronpk turns out the http signature spec leaves a few things up to the implementation
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snarfed yeah the sigs took the most debugging for me with bridgy fed
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aaronpk and you don't get a good error back from mastodon, just a generic failure
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[eddie] ohhhh interesting
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snarfed exactly, that
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aaronpk you can try sending to mine though, since i made it return more details in the error messages
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[eddie] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 103 karma in this channel over the last year (315 in all channels)
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snarfed and because AP underspecifies auth/sigs itself, so you usually have to dive into individual servers' code to figure out what they expect
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aaronpk oh and then when you're sending a reply, unless you also serve that at a URL that sends back JSON (or support conneg), it will "look weird" to people on other servers since they won't be able to interact with it
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sknebel aaronpk: did you mention that to the mastodon devs? If they're looking to make interoperability easier, "error messages" is comparatively low hanging fruit...
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[eddie] I figured I would do conneg as it seems pretty easy in node.js
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[eddie] :crossed_fingers:
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sknebel If you have caching , remember to respect it there
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aaronpk oh yeah that one bit me haha
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aaronpk nginx was caching on URL, so it would randomly cache json or http and return it inappropriately sometimes
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[eddie] Ohh so that leads to something else. I should probably only attempt to send ActivityPub if a webmention endpoint isn’t found
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[eddie] Because technically your posts aaronpk are both activitypub + webmention compatible
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aaronpk heh that's actually tricky
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aaronpk because my URLs also support conneg
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[eddie] exactly
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aaronpk so if you ask for activity+json you won't get back a webmention endpoint
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[eddie] so I should check http for webmention
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[eddie] if that fails
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aaronpk so you probably want to prioritize text/html in your accept header
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[eddie] Mastodon does conneg, though. So I need to actually do 2 queries rather than prioritize, right? Because Mastadon would return text/html rather than ActivityPub if I prioritize text/html?
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aaronpk 😭 lol
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[eddie] If there is no webmention, then go down the activitypub workflow outlined above
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[eddie] So I really would need to do a text/html query, if that returns with a webmention endpoint do webmention
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aaronpk now i need to double check how i do this
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skippy sweet baby Cthulhu! I'm compiling assets for Mastodon. What a monster. gobbling up all my droplet's RAM.
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aaronpk ooh, i do both in parallel haha
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sknebel Mastodon is probably a bit overkill for a single user
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[eddie] Which wouldn’t be HORRIBLE, it’s just the same as sending a webmention AND a tweet
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[eddie] but probably not best practices lol
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sknebel aaronpk: why no we mention header on the json representation?
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skippy sknebel: you may be right.
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aaronpk sknebel: oh good point i might actually already be sending a Link header
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aaronpk mastodon is definitely not meant for one person, you'll end up with an empty "home timeline" and a bunch of the features won't make sense. but i know some people who are doing that anyway.
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skippy in single-user mode the default home page is the "about", though? so Mastodon clearly supports the notion of single user.
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sknebel Pleroma might be a bit more lightweight
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skippy the docker install process even asks "Do you want to enable single user mode?"
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skippy what is Pleroma?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Pleroma" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "Pleroma is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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skippy https://git.pleroma.social/pleroma
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skippy oooer, written in Elixir
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skippy aaronpk: what features of Mastodon won't make sense on a single-user install? how is single user joining the federation different?
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aaronpk mastodon is more than just "joining the federation" and more than just a place to write stuff
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aaronpk it's also a reader, with features that are optimized for small communities
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aaronpk those features don't make sense in a single user install, things like the instance timeline
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skippy hrm
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aaronpk i mean it won't hurt anything, it'll just seem a little weird
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skippy i see. thanks for the input.
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skippy ponders if single-user mastodon would actually give him anything, other than one more thing to maintain...
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aaronpk if you already have a reader set up you can at least add ppls mastodon feeds to your dreader
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aaronpk reader not dreader lol
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skippy sure; but that doesnt help me interact easily with those people.
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk i was thinking about somehow making aperture work for this
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aaronpk well where i was going with that was you can use bridgy publish to send replies to people
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aaronpk you just need somewhere to see their posts show up in the first place
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sknebel What is bridgy fed?
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Loqi Bridgy Fed connects IndieWeb sites with federated social networks like Mastodon and Hubzilla https://indieweb.org/Bridgy_Fed
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aaronpk er that
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aaronpk thanks
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[manton] [cweiske] @Zegnat Sorry, catching up... Micro.blog doesn't actually check <link> for redirect URLs yet, so that's an improvement I need to make. But regardless, it seems like shpub will break for any IndieAuth provider that enforces the redirect check for security.
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Zegnat [manton], yes, if you are strictly enforcing the redirect_uri check, shpub will not work for you.
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[manton] It seems like shpub could be modified to always use localhost for the redirect, which is more easily whitelisted, but maybe I'm missing something. I've only used it very briefly.
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[manton] Micro.blog could also warn about this instead of making it an error, but generally I think the redirect check is a good thing.
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Zegnat You are missing running it on a non-local machine, e.g. on a remote machine you are connected to via ssh.
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aaronpk Zegnat: i don't understand why 0.0.0.0 doesn't work at that point?
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Zegnat I think this is a case where shpub is running on a remote machine. You then need to authenticate and use your local browser to authenticate. The redirect uri however needs to loop back to the remote machine.
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk shpub can listen on 0.0.0.0 (all interfaces)
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aaronpk oh nevermind, 0.0.0.0 -> localhost in a browser
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Zegnat Yep
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aaronpk so, another thought, if shpub knows it's on a remote machine, then couldn't it serve up its own client_id page?
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Zegnat It needs to give the auth endpoint a redirect_uri that points to the IP that shpub is running at.
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Zegnat client_id has to be a domain, can’t be an IP
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aaronpk ahh we did say that didn't we
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Zegnat :P
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Zegnat At that point you’ll need some magic DNS resolving so you can have a domain name that points at whatever IP address is needed right then.
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aaronpk 1.2.3.4.ip.example lol
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aaronpk aaanyway
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skippy ipv6 for the win?
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sknebel There's a bunch of domains like that
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sknebel E.g. xip.io
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aaronpk the big picture is that until we get all the edge cases of this worked out, it's probably best for the authorization server to show a warning (and maybe even make the user click something to confirm) if the redirect uri isn't registered or doesn't match
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aaronpk but not actually prevent it yet
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Zegnat Can we add a note to that effect in the spec? Because right now people are recommended to outright block non-verified redirect_uris
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sknebel Hm, that's a tricky one... How much do you trust users to do the right thing effectively
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sknebel Although you can always work around it using a specially crafted site, so I guess little point in making the direct way forbidden?
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Zegnat sknebel, any idea if using xip.io (or something like it) would leak information? Logging policies? That’s the one thing I thought of as a point agains a dynamic client_id page (example.org/shpub?ip=1.2.3.4&port=1234): it means every time you authenticate with shpub you tell someone else about the IP you are on.
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sknebel Yeah. And since it is possible, the wildcard registration doesn't make it less secure in the normal case
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Zegnat The wildcard registration may even be more private (regardless of secure) as you don’t have to inform the third party client_id hoster of where you are going.
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Zegnat This should be noted in the issue, probably
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@AngeloStavrow ✍️ And We’re Back: https://angelostavrow.com/post/and-were-back/ It’s probably not 100% there, but the custom theme for my personal site is finally live. I’d like to add webmentions at some point, but it’s otherwise 100% IndieWeb compatible. (twitter.com/_/status/1029114520457945088)
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Zegnat sknebel, documented: https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth/issues/22#issuecomment-412670126
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Loqi [Zegnat] @sknebel points out [in chat](https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-08-13/1534192339261900) that clients are already able to work with variable redirect URLs by passing the `redirect_uri` value along to a specially crafted page at `client_id`. Example: ...
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Been doing #IndieWeb in  my classes since 2015. first year having students build out from #DoOO rather than @withknown or http://wordpress.com May like this a course template with proper(ish??) microformats soon to have webmention powered badges (http://jgregorymcverry.com/5955-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1029135012107612160)
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snarfed.org edited /discuss (-112) "deleting the #bridgy channel" (view diff)
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