#dev 2018-08-14

2018-08-14 UTC
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[jgarber] Good morning/afternoon/evening!
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[jgarber] If there are any Ruby folks with a spare moment or two, I’ve got a PR open on webmention-client-ruby that’s been hanging around for over a month. Feedback would be greatly appreciated: https://github.com/indieweb/webmention-client-ruby/pull/16
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Loqi [jgarber623] #16 Refactor Endpoint Discovery
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ Welcome! @wiobyrne & I have been experimenting on using our websites as commonplace books to own data including reads/annotations. @jgmac1106 and I have been self-dogfooding how to use websites with Webmention capability for open pedagogy in [more...] https://boffosocko.com/2018/08/13/my-open-textbook-pedagogy-and-practice-robin-derosa/?replytocom=70930#respond (twitter.com/_/status/1029173194614132736)
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@jackysee Implementing Webmention on a static website – Deluvi's website https://deluvi.com/blog/webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/1029182756100689921)
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@chillybindesign Webmentions: Enabling Better Communication on the Internet http://bit.ly/2Nt7KYs #design #sidebar (twitter.com/_/status/1029262607805558784)
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[kevinmarks] https://chat.indieweb.org/social/2018-08-14/1534213177640000
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[kevinmarks] Over in #social, @Gargron said https://chat.indieweb.org/social/2018-08-14/1534213177640000 that no-one is using rel-me verification. That's not true, as indieauth uses it. You do have to be a bit careful with twitter, and Facebook is a lost cause, but it works with WordPress and github as well as personal sites. Here's how it works with a browser plug in http://www.kevinmarks.com/distributed-verify.html previously
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[kevinmarks] https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/121 @cwebber @aaronpk https://xoxo.zone/@KevinMarks/100548181611075046
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Loqi [Gargron] of course we already have *a* form of verification: each link in the profile fields is marked up with rel="me" so if the page linked contains a link back also with rel="me", that's a verification. of course, nobody uses that, and you couldn't make it...
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Loqi [kevinmarks] #121 No URL in profile
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jgmac1106 [kevinmarks] is social som kind of private channel? Keep seeing it cited but can’t join indieweb-social or just social
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cweiske w3c channel
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[jgmac1106] but archived through chat.indieweb.org?
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cweiske yes, because aaronpk and others are/were members
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cweiske iirc
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[jgmac1106] thx
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[kevinmarks] https://xoxo.zone/@KevinMarks/100548232257274383
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Loqi [Kevin Marks] @cwebber that system sounds very like xfn rel=contact. If you publish a following list/blog roll with h-card and xfn links (along with your rel=me ones) you can build this web of trust on the Web. The challenge of these has always been maintaining th...
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[kevinmarks] Crossing the streams
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ @autmm  Here is my class https://edu522.networkedlearningcollabortive.com using webmentions as part of class is awesome and release of some new #IndieWeb plugins makes it easier  with WordPress.. though I am still tempted to try @microdotblog (http://jgregorymcverry.com/5990-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1029328667737026560)
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Zegnat With the silos obfuscating and/or removing rel-me, it doesn’t have a great future for authentication, [kevinmarks] :( But still strong for verification, especially among indie stuff and possible fediverse! :D
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Zegnat just spent 15 minutes trying to parse Link headers with regex
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Zegnat So ... surely someone has done this better? https://regex101.com/r/DXfwzl/1
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cweiske http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/pear-web-linking.htm
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Loqi [Christian Weiske] Web Linking support in PEAR
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Zegnat RFC8288 actually has a recommended statemachine-ish parser it describes. I was really hoping I could get away with not needing it.
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Zegnat But the regex is just getting way too unwieldy.
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Zegnat Maybe I’ll pull in HTTP2
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cweiske should be composer-installable
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Zegnat I thought I would try to do what jgarber did and write a small module that just handles webmention endpoint discovery. In the end I’ll be pulling in PEAR’s Net_URL2 & HTTP2, as well as a userland HTML parser. This just makes it clear to me once again how fragile this whole web business is :P
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Zegnat Fragile is maybe the wrong word ... I could write my own Link parsing state-machine and URL resolver if I really wanted or needed to. Convoluted is maybe a better descriptor
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Zegnat cweiske++ for that lib
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Loqi cweiske has 24 karma in this channel over the last year (33 in all channels)
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aaronpk Zegnat: I managed to create a Regex that passes all the webmention.rocks tears anyway
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cweiske tears is the right word
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aaronpk Haha oops
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Zegnat Do we have a test with multiple rel keywords in one rel attribute? Or one that sends a Link header containing multiple links and one tagged ;rel="nothing webmention something" in the list?
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Zegnat So many weird edge cases on Web Linking ...
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aaronpk https://github.com/indieweb/link-rel-parser-php/blob/master/tests/BasicTest.php
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Zegnat Tempting to see if I can create a Link header that fails, hehe
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aaronpk Do it, I'll update the library to fix it
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aaronpk so far that library has served me very well
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Zegnat It would probably be a lot of theoretical wrangling of things, not sure if it is worth it aaronpk. But it I can come up with a somewhat obvious one, I’ll report
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Zegnat I think my discovery script now passes all the webmention.rocks tests, woop
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Zegnat Here we go, inspired by jgarber who did this in Ruby: https://github.com/Zegnat/php-webmention-endpoint-discovery
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Loqi [Zegnat] php-webmention-endpoint-discovery: A straight forward implementation of webmention endpoint discovery.
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Zegnat Passes all webmention.rocks discovery tests
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tantek__ Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 53 karma in this channel over the last year (143 in all channels)
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aaronpk Zegnat++
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Loqi Zegnat has 54 karma in this channel over the last year (144 in all channels)
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aaronpk what is rel-payment
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rel-payment" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "rel-payment is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronpk rel-payment is /payment
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /rel-payment (+20) "prompted by aaronpk and redirect added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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aaronpk payment << https://twitter.com/mijustin/status/1029230847373668352
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Loqi ok, I added "https://twitter.com/mijustin/status/1029230847373668352" to the "See Also" section of /payment https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=50870&oldid=50842
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aaronparecki.com edited /payment (+201) "add transistor.fm example of rel=payment" (view diff)
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@call_user_func [New]zegnat/webmention-endpoint-discovery A straight forward implementation of webmention endpoint discovery. https://github.com/Zegnat/php-webmention-endpoint-discovery (twitter.com/_/status/1029359598438952966)
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Zegnat Ohno, are the bots watching me now too :o
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petermolnar Zegnat: http://sarahcandersen.com/post/172344085796
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tantek__ dat tumblr comment nesting tho 😂
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petermolnar let's not talk about Tumblr technical details :D
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Zegnat There isn’t actually any nesting, tantek__, just a failed `float` on the avatars in the list.
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Zegnat Atleast if you are talking about the same thing I am seeing :P
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tantek__ Zegnat, seems to happen a lot on Tumblr
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[jgmac1106] [aaronpk] new standard.. That's cute
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aaronpk hehe yea
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aaronpk maybe he was talking about the standard (convention) for podcasts rather than the standard of the format
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Zegnat I thought jsonfeed was supposed to be the new podcasting feed standard? :P
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Zegnat (Although, sadly, no rel="payment" there ... https://github.com/brentsimmons/JSONFeed/issues/44)
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Loqi [voxpelli] #44 Support link relations
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aaronpk this goes inside the html show notes, so it would work regardless of whether it's an xml or json feed
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aaronpk that was the trick to make this actually possible to roll out almost instantly, since anyone who writes html into their show notes (many many podcasters on many many platforms) can just add the new <a> link
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aaronpk rather than waiting for all the podcast publishing software to update to add a new xml tag to the feed
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tantek__ this ^^^ is the problem with new xml for new things
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tantek__ also s/xml/json and the problem is still true today
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petermolnar but it's more readable today
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tantek__ is there more we can recommend for the html in their show notes?
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tantek__ what are show notes
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "show notes" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "show notes is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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aaronpk not unless there is a really compelling consuming use case for it
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tantek__ hmm - this is a bit thin: https://indieweb.org/podcast#How_to_publish
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tantek__ and that page doesn't mention "show notes"
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aaronpk hm also that "how" header is incorrect, you don't publish a feed on itunes, itunes is a directory
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aaronpk that makes it sound like itunes hosts the feed
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tantek__ doesn't it?
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aaronpk no
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tantek__ yeah that's confusing
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aaronpk to add a podcast to itunes you have to give it your feed URL
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tantek__ maybe that needs a separate how to get listed in iTunes
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aaronpk you can't enter any information in the apple interface, it pulls everything from your feed
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tantek__ also does Atom enclosures actually work for podcasting?
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tantek__ really wondering about that how to publish advice there
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aaronpk if by atom enclosure you mean the <enclosure> tag then i believe that is the *only* way to do it
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tantek__ needs an update from someone who actually publishes a podcast
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aaronparecki.com edited /podcast (-15) "/* Brainstorming */ update my example" (view diff)
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@Long_Lazuli ↩️ @SaraSoueidan Good idea, maybe check https://indieweb.org/webmention , I want to try it too soon. (twitter.com/_/status/1029372212879478785)
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aaronparecki.com edited /podcast (+176) "/* How */ expand and clarify somewhat" (view diff)
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aaronpk don't have energy for a proper fix of that section right now
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tantek__ aaronpk++ thanks for the quick patch
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Loqi aaronpk has 104 karma in this channel over the last year (316 in all channels)
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jeremycherfas !tell aaronpk So can I just add a hidden rel="payment" to every show note?
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aaronpk Yea but even better make it visible so that players that don't support it still show your link!
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jeremycherfas That means styling and everything, but yet ...
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tantek__ just added rel=payment to his tip link on his home page FWIW
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jeremycherfas s/yet/yes/
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aaronpk Styling? It can just be in the text
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aaronpk Like "support this podcast on patreon" as the link text
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jeremycherfas What it looks like in the player.
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aaronpk A lot of podcasts do that already
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jeremycherfas I need to find time away from doing a daily podcast to experiment. Completely exhausting.
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aaronpk Daily is so much work!
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aaronparecki.com edited /IRC (+55) "/* Advanced / Admin notes */" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /indiechat (+77) "indieweb-chat" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IRC (+50) "/* Advanced / Admin notes */" (view diff)
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[keithjgrant] How would I post a bookmark via micropub? I see Quill supports it, but I don't `bookmark-of` or anything like that in the spec
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sknebel The spec doesn't describe that stuff
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sknebel That's in microformats
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aaronpk technically bookmark-of is "under consideration" http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Proposed_Additions
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Loqi [Tantek Çelik] h-entry is a simple, open format for episodic or datestamped content on the web. h-entry is often used with content intended to be syndicated, e.g. blog posts. h-entry is one of several open microformat standards suitable for embedding data in HTML. ...
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aaronpk here's quill's docs on it https://quill.p3k.io/docs/bookmark
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[keithjgrant] Ah, cool. So I'll look to do it like quill does
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aaronpk but basically micropub doesn't define any vocab, that's all defined by microformats
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[keithjgrant] like-of and repost-of are defined in micropub, though, aren't they?
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aaronpk no they are just examples in the spec
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[keithjgrant] Ah, I see. That makes sense
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[keithjgrant] Does any clients use/support additional comments along with likes & reposts?
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aaronpk i don't think so
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aaronpk typically those are one-click actions
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eddiehinkle.com edited /ActivityPub (+1862) "/* Bridging */ Add workflow and tips for sending ActivityPub notifications from an IndieWeb website" (view diff)
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@ChrisAldrich ↩️ A WordPress plugin to help facilitate setting up these types of feed readers using Microsub was released yesterday: https://wordpress.org/plugins/aperture/ It's obviously much more powerful if you've got Webmention and Micropub functionality set up too. https://boffosocko.com/2018/08/14/reply-to-stephen-downes-on-microsub-readers/ (twitter.com/_/status/1029400137427181568)
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@jgmac1106 @wiobyrne Now that you are back on radar look at how @chrisaldrich has interacted with post kinds and webmentions in my class.. (https://jgregorymcverry.com/6001-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1029400908109631488)
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[cleverdevil] [grantcodes] how do you handle the redirect after publish?
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Loqi [cleverdevil]: [grantcodes] left you a message 1 day, 1 hour ago: Yeah it's a bit iffy for me too. Don't know if anyone knows any other image proxy services that support resizing on the fly like that
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[cleverdevil] Since the headless side won't know what the frontend is going to use for its permalink.
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[grantcodes] Nothing clever. When you run the backend you need to provide a pattern for your permalinks
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[cleverdevil] Ah.
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[cleverdevil] I was thinking of making consumers just provide a well-known endpoint for rendering posts from the backend.
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[cleverdevil] Like:
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[cleverdevil] http://frontend.example/post?target=http://backend.example/posts/2018/01/01/sample.mf2json
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[cleverdevil] Then, the frontend could do another redirect after it generated its own permalink however it wanted.
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[grantcodes] Then wouldn't the frontend also need a backend?
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[grantcodes] I don't quite get it 😛
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[cleverdevil] Heh
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[cleverdevil] Yes, the frontend would also need a backend
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[cleverdevil] But, it would be a separation of concerns.
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[cleverdevil] One microservice for micropub stuff.
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[cleverdevil] One for just rendering content from the CMS microservice.
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[grantcodes] My version works, until you have a static site or something that needs compiled. Then the returned permalink may not exist, but it would exist in the future.
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[cleverdevil] I actually want/prefer dynamic sites.
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[grantcodes] How would you then map from the url to get the correct mf2 json from the backend?
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[grantcodes] In particular if you change the slug or something
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[cleverdevil] So, the render-side microservice would need to maintain that mapping.
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[cleverdevil] Or, would need to be able to tell the cms-side to update its mapping.
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[cleverdevil] (I suppose that's another way to do it)
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[grantcodes] Hmm still sounds more complicated than a permalink pattern 😛
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[cleverdevil] You're probably right.
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[cleverdevil] But, then the microservice would be for a single tenant.
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[cleverdevil] I'd like to make it support multiple sites.
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[cleverdevil] And have as little configuration as possible.
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[grantcodes] Ah yes, mine is one instance per user
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[grantcodes] Actually could the headless server not actually spit out plain html in response to the micropub request? That way it could also send webmentions. There is probably a million issues with that once I actually think about it though
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[cleverdevil] Yeah, this is sort of the issue with trying to completely decouple, unfortunately 😕
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[grantcodes] Yes. My site will be fine, since it is dynamic. In my backend I would just have to figure out a way to delay sending webmentions for people that need compilation. Probably webhook all the things
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[eddie] hmmm aaronpk snarfed seems like something’s off with my activity pub http signature surprise, surprise? I’m getting Signature is missing headers or signature parts from your server aaronpk 😕
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[eddie] Oddly enough comparing https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2018/06/how-to-implement-a-basic-activitypub-server/ and https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/blob/acaa28ef1347eb98e0011f65501dc61af4e9492f/webmention.py#L154 are showing me different header setups.
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[eddie] aaronpk do you think you could email me your ActivityPub php files you they are separate from the rest of your site?
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk what's the exact response you're getting from my server?
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[eddie] error: ‘Signature is missing headers or signature parts’ }
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[eddie] I’ve gotten other errors as I’ve tried fiddling with stuff, but that seems the most successful error message lol
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aaronpk oh your signature line is all wack
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aaronpk i got: "(request-target): post activitypub/inbox aaronparecki.com Tue, 14 Aug 2018 13:18:41 GMT"
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aaronpk that should be the list of things you've signed, like "(request-target) user-agent host date accept-encoding digest content-type"
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[eddie] Yeah that’s what https://blog.joinmastodon.org/2018/06/how-to-implement-a-basic-activitypub-server/ shows
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[eddie] lol
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[eddie] ohhhh
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[eddie] you don’t put the header values you put the header attribute names
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk literally what's in that example haha
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[eddie] that makes a lot more sense
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[eddie] lol I read it as if they were variables
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[eddie] 😆
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[eddie] Success!
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[eddie] Well partial success but i understand what to fix based on the current response 🙂
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loqi.me created /decentralised (+26) "prompted by tantek__ and redirect added by tantek__" (view diff)
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loqi.me created /decentralisation (+29) "prompted by tantek__ and redirect added by tantek__" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /Aperture (+710) "pagelogo; WordPress plugin; shifted dgold article; Category:WordPress_plugins" (view diff)
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boffosocko.com edited /refback (+81) "link to WordPress plugin" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /dwebsummit (+0) "update for 2018" (view diff)
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snarfed moving https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/155#issuecomment-412965329 here
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Loqi [aaronpk] not sure what you mean by the URL citation block at the bottom. The way that Monocle renders posts is it includes the quoted post in the UI if `quotation-of` is present. That ends up incorrectly looking like a QT in cases like this. ![screenshot 2...
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snarfed aaronpk i was talking about the u-quotation-of h-cite div at the bottom of granary's html
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aaronpk only sees microformats
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aaronpk lol
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snarfed the one you said doesn't have anything beyond the url, so it's not useful, which is true
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snarfed i'm guessing the core idea in your issue was that i should probably drop that div entirely, not just the u-quotation-of, right?
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aaronpk oh, uh
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aaronpk i don't really care because i parse this for microformats so i don't see the html
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snarfed ko
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snarfed er ok
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snarfed you may be happy with it now then
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snarfed even if i probably still need to improve the mf2/html output in general
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aaronpk cool, will wait for something to pop up in my reader!
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vanderven.se martijn edited /litepub (+507) "Links, citations, that sort of thing." (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "next" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /webring (+101) "/* Examples */ +Blog Lane" (view diff)
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[eddie] starts to think using fed.brid.gy might be the right choice over handrolling everything
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aaronpk 😂
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aaronpk bridgy fed needs a few more things before it can completely take the place of handrolling evrything
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[eddie] decisions decisions
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[eddie] lol
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[eddie] Cryptography is hard