#dev 2018-09-06

2018-09-06 UTC
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stevestreza !tell manton I've actually been thinking about building journaling apps on IndieWeb stuff :) Still getting my hands dirty with stuff like micropub and activitypub to figure out how best to start using it
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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swentel !tell [eddie] if you could pull on the indigenous site, that would be great, thanks :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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swentel pstuifzand, aperture sends a '"post-type" property now to indicate to post type. Does ekster return something like that as well ?
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swentel because I might start using that in indigenous
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swentel but don't want to break other servers :)
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Zegnat That sounds very non-standard. Don’t see mention of it in the spec either.
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Zegnat Did you just spot it in the Aperture output or was there some topic about it somewhere, swentel?
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swentel Zegnat, well, I see it in the debug of monocle
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swentel I actually haven't checked the response yet from aperture
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swentel but I'm guessing that will contain it as well
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Zegnat can’t find it in the code
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Zegnat Was going to document it, but if I can’t find it *shrug*
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jgmac1106 [zegnat] this course has a game built into every module: https://unboundeq.creativitycourse.org/
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Loqi About
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jgmac1106 on a side note…maha is actually going to give a remote keynote at IWC NYC and all the course designers were selected as Mozilla Open Leaders, as well their team virtually connecting program
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swentel Zegnat, hmm, might be coming from Xray
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[eddie] !tell swentel Website pulled and updated 😁
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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swentel woot
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swentel nice :)
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[eddie] 🎉
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jgmac1106 [eddie] when Known was updated automatically in my shared hosting cpanel…that felt the most turn key to me….except that is less turn key for the average user….but one button installs on any domain I want is fun way to play on web
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[eddie] Oh definitely, I think besides hosted services like Micro.blog finding ways to get one button, autoupdating installs is the next best option
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[jgmac1106] yeah I tried to get Reclaim hosting to update Known from @mapkyca builds but they wouldn't. WordPress is fun and all but I also like when things work
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[jgmac1106] @yeah tried to convince ReClaim Hosting to pull in from
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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swentel !tell schmarty tried verifying my site (realize.be) on indieweb ring, but doesn't seem to find the links .. am I doing something wrong ? :)
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[cleverdevil] FYI, [eddie] and [grantcodes] - https://github.com/indieweb/micropub-extensions/issues/4#issuecomment-419170672
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Loqi [cleverdevil] FYI, I have a local branch of [Known](https://github.com/idno/Known) that supports: - `q=source` - `&url=` - `&limit=` - `&offset=` I'm closely watching this thread, and if we can come to a consensus, I should be able to have a fully complia...
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[cleverdevil] I'd like to see us come to a consensus on this, and get a few implementations out there. It'd really help to have something in the wild that is consistent.
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[iambismark] I haven’t taken part in the convo yet but I’d vote for pagination tokens > offset. allows the server to do more efficient things if it wants and it could always fallback to using offsets for pagination token if it wants
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[iambismark] re offset: https://use-the-index-luke.com/no-offset
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[cleverdevil] I tend to agree, but offset is reallllly easy to implement 😉
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[cleverdevil] That said, tokens aren't hard really.
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[cleverdevil] I just want a documented, official, consensus way.
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[grantcodes] Yep tokens for me too
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[grantcodes] They can just map to offset in your implementation
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[eddie] I'll take a full look in a bit, but when aaronpk and I talked about it, it seemed like using pagination token was the consensus because that is also what Microsub uses so it keeps consistency
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[eddie] and I implemented tokens myself
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[cleverdevil] :thumbsup:
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[grantcodes] In fact that is what I do just now for laziness
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snarfed reminds me of talking with jamey sharp about paging at IWS. he was very passionate about it. eg https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/152
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Loqi [jameysharp] #152 Atom/RSS feed paging
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[eddie] I still need to spend some time looking and experimenting with grantcodes' query parameters, but I think post-type is an agreed consensus based on the conversations so far (unless while implementing major flaws are found, everything is open to change if there is a serious issue, obviously)
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[eddie] My site doesn't know or track post types either, I just have a function where I pass a post into and it checks for attributes via the PTD and outputs the name of the post type
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[eddie] Since Known is DB based, it does get more complicated since you'd probably want a DB field you could query on
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jgmac1106_ [eddie] and need to note which post types are marked as accepted and those that are experimental on the post-type discovery page
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[eddie] I would recommend a good approach (if benward and mapkyca are open to it) would be as part of the "save" function, it could calculate the post type and save that to the db field. So if the post is modified that field would be updated every time you save the post
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[cleverdevil] Well, Known has a "post type" of sorts.
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[eddie] ohhh
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[cleverdevil] I just need a way to map them to the Post Type Discovery types.
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[eddie] ohhhh gotcha. They don't match up 1 to 1
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[cleverdevil] Plugins can provide their own "post types"
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[cleverdevil] So, it'd need to be a method added to the base "Entity" class which would by default return "article"
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[eddie] Ohhh yeah. That is a bit more complicated than I thought. Well it's probably a good way to test post-type as an attribute though. If you can get it to work in Known, we can probably get it to work anywhere, which means it's fine for the spec. If not, then we know we need to drop it
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[cleverdevil] So, I can definitely get it to work 🙂
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[cleverdevil] Its more of a "what would be accepted into Known?" question.
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[cleverdevil] FWIW, I was very encouraged to see this email from [benwerd] - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/known-dev/XCpVUkkp8m0
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[cleverdevil] He's going to be working on Known again, which is a welcome bit of news!
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benwerd :)
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Loqi benwerd: aaronpk left you a message on 2018-01-17 at 5:17pm UTC: your cert on benwerd.com expired and I was using your screenshot tool that's on that domain! any chance you can renew it or move that to werd.io?
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 2018-03-07 at 1:58am UTC: we found your WordPress equivalent, naturally https://benword.com/ e.g. https://roots.io/weve-migrated-from-yoast-seo/
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[cleverdevil] A WILD BEN WERD APPEARS
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benwerd I'm excited about doing more Known stuff.
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[eddie] 😆
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[cleverdevil] \o/
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benwerd And I think an indieweb post type method sounds like a very good idea.
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[cleverdevil] I'm particularly excited because I tend to bumble around as a novice PHP developer and try and make enhancements but am never sure I am doing the right things 😉
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benwerd I mean, if you're happy to send a PR, there's a whole review process, which is friendly not scary :)
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[cleverdevil] Indeed.
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[cleverdevil] I'll do that.
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benwerd Yay!
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Loqi yay!
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benwerd Exactly
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benwerd Honestly, I was expecting more pushback to the "let's deprecate all the syndication plugins" aspect of that email. None yet
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[cleverdevil] The only one worth keeping around at this point is Twitter, IMO.
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[cleverdevil] But, I understand your logic.
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benwerd I strongly suspect that API's not long for this world either
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[cleverdevil] I'll use it until I leave Twitter or they shut down the API, which seems increasingly likely (both).
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snarfed fwiw https://trello.com/b/myf7rKwV/twitter-developer-platform-roadmap
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[cleverdevil] [benwerd] how about getIndiePostType() for Entity?
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benwerd That would work. I'm also wondering if there should be an abstracted interface for open standards - eg $indieweb = new IndieWeb(); $post_type = $indieweb->getPostType($object); ?
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benwerd That way you could also have $activitypub = new ActivityPub(); $post_type = $activitypub->getPostType($object);
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benwerd etc
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[cleverdevil] There is already getActivityStreamsObjectType and getMicroformats2ObjectType
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benwerd Ah
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benwerd Ahhh
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benwerd Well
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benwerd In that case ;)
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[cleverdevil] Seems to fit the current pattern 😉
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benwerd I think you're completely right and what I'm talking about could potentially be a later refactor if at all
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[cleverdevil] Indeed.
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[cleverdevil] The only difficult one I can think of so far is the `Media` entity, which represents video and audio.
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benwerd Wellllll ... and that should be split out. It's daft that it's one plugin. They have very different needs.
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pstuifzand swentel, if the post-type is documented somewhere I'll add it
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[cleverdevil] Agreed.
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[cleverdevil] For now, I'll do something smart-ish.
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benwerd https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/2141
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Loqi [benwerd] #2141 Split Media into Audio and Video plugins
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[cleverdevil] :thumbsup:
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benwerd Hey, thanks, Loqi
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pstuifzand swentel, it could be part of Xray, which is what Aperture uses (I think)
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swentel pstuifzand, I think it's parsed by Xray
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swentel oh
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swentel hehe
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sknebel please don't start adding things that aren't in the spec just because something uses it
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pstuifzand I think I saw it there
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swentel yeah, but afaics monocle doesn't something with it
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swentel so I'll ignore it oo
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swentel too
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[cleverdevil] Hmm, the more I think about this, the less confident I am that its going to work.
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[cleverdevil] In order to query against the post type, it either needs to be 100% the same for every instance of a particular Entity, or it needs to be calculated and saved in the database.
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[cleverdevil] Things like replies and video don't currently fit that mold in Known, I don't think....
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[eddie] ohhh yeah, swentel and pstuifzand that post-type in Aperture is from Xray. The question on if it should be expected is if jf2 includes post-type or not
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sknebel it does not
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swentel ok, ignore it is then :)
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[eddie] essentially Xray is running PTD, so if you do the same thing, you’ll get the same results
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jackjamieson Incidentally, I noticed GWG added post type discovery to his parser in post-kinds, which is what I'm using for Yarns. So soon enough that will be another microsub server that can return post-type (through no effort on my part)
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swentel [eddie], btw, I see icons in your channel listing screenshots, where do these come from ?
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[eddie] I just added Emoji in my channels names
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jackjamieson But given that it's not part of the spec I think it might make sense for a client to implement its own PTD
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swentel Ooooooh
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swentel my god
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[eddie] Yeah, Indigenous for iOS does PTD on it’s own
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swentel I was looking in aperture and couldn't find anything :))
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swentel re: PTD - I need to work on that in the android version, it's not entirely foolproof atm
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jackjamieson btw [eddie], have you had any thoughts about what might be causing my problems with indigenous for iOS? (https://github.com/jackjamieson2/yarns-microsub-server/issues/8)
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[eddie] I need to work on mine as well, I don’t handle all cases, I just made a good default
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Loqi [jackjamieson2] #8 Bug: Channels not loading in indigenous for ios
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jackjamieson Is there anything I could do to send further debug info to indigenous?
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[eddie] Honestly, I haven’t gotten the plugin reinstalled on my test instance to test it. Sorry 🙂
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[eddie] Thanks for the reminder though, I’ll add it to my life
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[eddie] list
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[eddie] haha
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swentel lol
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swentel good one :)
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jackjamieson No problem! I haven't worked much on that either since I'm a bit stumped :/
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[kevinmarks] [benwerd] can you update hosted known? I can't use it with microsub at the moment
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benwerd kevinmarks: will do that today
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[eddie] jackjamieson Probably not, I probably just need to run it in Xcode where I can step through the code and see what is happening
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jackjamieson [eddie] Thanks, totally not urgent but it'll be nice once I can access my feeds from my phone
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[kevinmarks] Thank you! I do miss the syndication to twitter, but I can see why you might want to avoid it
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[kevinmarks] [benwerd] are you coming to xoxo?
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benwerd kevinmarks: I can't afford it because of job shenanigans :( I'm feeling the FOMO really hard right now. And particularly when I saw that you were there
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[eddie] jackjamieson After taking a small hiatus from Indigenous to make some website improvements I opened up Indigenous last night, so I’ll make sure that’s one of the things I try to address in the next version 🙂
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jackjamieson [eddie] ++
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jackjamieson [eddie]++
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Loqi [eddie] has 40 karma in this channel over the last year (60 in all channels)
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swentel [eddie], btw, I have the indigenous logo in svg
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swentel if you need, let me know
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swentel actually it's in the repo
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swentel https://github.com/swentel/indigenous-android/blob/master/assets/logo-red.svg in case you need it
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[eddie] Sweet, thanks swentel, that’ll be helpful!
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swentel color is a bit different
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swentel I think
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swentel but I matched the one in the build or in te app store with the app color icon you used
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[eddie] Ohh, interesting. I tried to match the color from the sample you posted on GitHub but maybe my app pulled the wrong color out or it was a different colorspace or something
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swentel could be
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swentel but in the end
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swentel I think your color is better :)
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[eddie] Alright 🙂 I can’t tell a huge difference, so I’m flexible. But since we’ve got them shipped, like you said, we’ll probably just leave it unless we run into any issues
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swentel oh yes, I'm happy with look and feel at the moment
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swentel want to tackle some harder ones now
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swentel html parsing :(
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swentel actually, the parsing bit is fine
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swentel it's the rendering which is clumsy
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[eddie] Ohhh yeah
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[eddie] For now I skipped HTML in the Timeline and only display it in the Full Post view on iOS
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swentel hmm, that's a good idea .....
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[eddie] Eventually I want to find a good way to put the HTML in the Timeline but so far from my research and testing most forms slow down scrolling
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swentel yeah, same here
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[cleverdevil] !tell benwerd thanks for the encouragement, I've opened a ticket here to ask some questions - https://github.com/idno/Known/issues/2142
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [cleverdevil] #2142 Post Type Discovery implementation
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[eddie] So I check a post if it has any photos in mf2, if not, then I check the html to see if there is an <img>, if so I grab that url and pretend that was an mf2 photo. Then I basically just use the plain text. It works in like 90% of the use cases, so that’s good enough for me for now 🙂
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swentel hehe, more or less do the same thing, but I only show one photo right now
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swentel ironically, sometimes it's spacer.png :))
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swentel so you get a big white square :/
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[eddie] Yeah I only show 1 photo right now too. I want to improve that.
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[eddie] OH! snarfed’s posts always have a white space. I wonder if that is what is happening
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[eddie] I was so confused why his posts had a big white space under, I bet that was it
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swentel oh yes, in his posts it's usually there
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[eddie] I also added some code to ignore Wordpress emoji images
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swentel they don't display in iOS ?
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[eddie] Only to ignore them when grabbing a “post photo”
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[eddie] They will show up in the actual full post display
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[eddie] https://github.com/EdwardHinkle/indigenous-ios/commit/ef920a9aef43dcf51aee843d5b4bb370570b1b6a
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[eddie] essentially when I’m pulling the image out of the html, I only do it if this string doesn’t exist “core/emoji”
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[eddie] so I’ll probably do the same thing for “spacer.*”
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[eddie] swentel: are you doing any types of notifications?
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swentel [eddie], not at all at the moment
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swentel I'm planning to add a background service that can temporarily check whether there are new items
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[eddie] me either. I’m working on that. The plan is to have an AWS serverless environment (Lambda for the API and SNS to send the actual push notifications)
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[eddie] Since it’s serverless we could potentially just use the same environment for Android as well since Amazon SNS supports Push Notifications to all the platforms
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swentel but who decides to send that push notification ?
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[eddie] So I have two potential paths. the first one is if someone turns notifications on for the iOS app (they select which channels they want notifications for), the iOS app will send their account info to the server through https and the server will act as a Microsub client pulling the requested channels every minute (until some Microsub servers support sometime of webhook).
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[eddie] When it gets new posts in a channel since the last pull, it will send push notifications for them to the device ID provided when the iOS app registers for notifications
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swentel oh right like that, makes sense
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[eddie] The second option is similar but instead of sending the account info to the server, when you turned on notifications, it would take you through IndieAuth again (but this time the client app would be Indigenous Notifications and it would only request a read channels scope) and it would store those credentials on the server
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[eddie] essentially I’m weighing the user having to login “AGAIN” for notifications versus storing a higher scoped token in the serverless environment
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[eddie] But either way the rest of it will behave the same way.
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swentel having to log again seems very inconvenient
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swentel s/log/log in
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[eddie] Yeah, I was thinking the same thing
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[eddie] Which is why in the privacy policy I include that the token can be sent to the server if notifications are turned on
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swentel oh that's why, yeah I think I've left that out for now since I don't have anything yet anyway
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[eddie] So I think I’ll start with that, but if anyone has concerns, then I can fall back to the 2nd login method
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[eddie] Makes sense :thumbsup: So I’ll keep you looped in as I get this working. If it works well I can provide you the info and if you feel like it you could use the same server so you don’t have to re-invent the wheel
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swentel that would be nice indeed
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swentel I wasn't really thinking about implementing push notifications anywa
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swentel as I'm not sure whether it's really relevant for the reader
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swentel but that might be me
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swentel I have zero push notifications enabled :)
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[eddie] Yeah every person is different
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[eddie] I would like push notifications for my notifications channel and the website notifications channel. I won’t be turning on notifications for like a random timeline probably
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swentel especially, if I have a background service on the app, it will do the same thing, basically polling the microsub server and then sshowing a notification
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swentel oh right per channel
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[eddie] Yeah, I thought about doing that, but I’m very battery conscious so I don’t want my iOS app running every minute, much less every 30 minutes
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swentel right
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[eddie] But yeah, no pressure. There’s lots of stuff to implement. 🙂 Just wanted to let you know my plans and if the server works well let you know it’s available.
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swentel yeah, so many ideas to work on :)
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[eddie] lol yep!
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swentel have to run now, catch you later!
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[eddie] 👋
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tantek__ re: URLs and URL design https://twitter.com/torgo/status/1037678226867404800
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@torgo Since some people are talking about the “death of the URL” … again … it felt like the right time to re-post something I wrote 2 years ag on the topic https://medium.com/@torgo/in-defense-of-the-url-adbec59c7cf4 including a link to research that seems to indicate people DO know what URLs are. (twitter.com/_/status/1037678226867404800)
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sknebel https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=881410
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tantek__ wow
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tantek__ I feel like there's an opportunity for someone who wants to do the research to write a "No, Google, URLs are not broken, your use of URLs is broken" blog post documenting all their bad URL design on their sites, Chrome bugs like that one etc.
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[iambismark] > "subdomain.www.domain.com" displays as "subdomain.domain.com".
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[iambismark] Lol
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tantek__ yeah that's a particularly bad one. looks like an overaggressive regex
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sknebel yeah. Firefox's approach of highlighting the apex domain slightly seems a lot more sensible to me
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@kickscondor Just a little proposal to use 301 permanent redirects on http://Webmention.io. http://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/113 (twitter.com/_/status/1037830288003526661)
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@kickscondor I’m so sorry for any extra comments or links that may be showing up on aggregators and http://micro.blog—my blog broke and I also changed the permalinks for everything. I have a system for keeping the old permalinks at their location (and had… https://kickscondor.com/webmention-spillage (twitter.com/_/status/1037838876742766592)
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