#dev 2018-09-21

2018-09-21 UTC
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tantek.com edited /Storytlr (+133) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ note replaced usage with Peepeth" (view diff)
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tantek__ !tell manton does micro.blog send webmentions when someone posts a reply on micro.blog to a post elsewhere? e.g. curious what's going on with https://jeena.net/notes/970
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [Jeena] I had a look into my logs and it looks like #Micro.blog doesn't send any webmentions to my site when someone comments, which is a pity, because when I trigger it manually, their comment shows up nicely on my website.
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[eddie] tantek: Webmentions are sent for external posts but not external replies. So either Jenna found a bug or he’s wanting Webmentions for external replies (which aren’t supported yet: https://github.com/microdotblog/issues/issues/89)
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Loqi [EdwardHinkle] #89 Should receive webmentions for replies to externally posted replies
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[tantek] Eddie, you’re right it’s not clear which of those Jeena was doing. We may have to ask him
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[eddie] Just replied: https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/09/20/16/reply/
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Loqi [Eddie Hinkle] Hey Jeena, Because of the way Micro.blog is architected, it treats original posts and replies differently. It should be sending webmentions for original posts, but it doesn’t currently send webmentions to posts that are in reply to other posts. I t...
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[manton] Thanks y’all. I’d like to know what’s happening here too. There are some holes but it should deliver Webmentions for replies on a blog post. Usually I hear from people when that’s not working.
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Loqi [manton]: tantek__ left you a message 1 hour, 16 minutes ago: does micro.blog send webmentions when someone posts a reply on micro.blog to a post elsewhere? e.g. curious what's going on with https://jeena.net/notes/970
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GWG Hello, [manton]
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[eddie] [manton] yeah mine have been coming through correctly in the past week
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[tantek] Eddie++ good call. I don’t see your reply on his post though so I wonder if Jeena moderates Webmentions
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Loqi Eddie has 42 karma in this channel over the last year (62 in all channels)
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[eddie] I’m thinking he must, because I noticed that too
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Zegnat Webmentions are great fun. I am going to try and have a Mastodon instance sending Webmentions today.
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Zegnat [christophe] if I were to do webmentions for indieweb.me, does polling the API once every 10 minutes sound doable for your server?
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@kevinmarks ↩️ Which push model is this? Indieweb has multiple ways to work, but includes a couple of webhook interactions (websub and webmention) designed to save on polling. (twitter.com/_/status/1043060555660046336)
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[jgmac1106] @zegnat I can ask the guy who runs the hosting service
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Zegnat If you have a more direct line, please. Still in local testing phase at the moment, but I think I have the part where my server can do multiple webmentions simultaniously and securely is all done.
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[jgmac1106] are youy zegnat@indieweb.me?
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Zegnat No
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Zegnat I am not on the fediverse at all
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[jgmac1106] just doing this local? indieweb.me is on a shared host that does mastodon instances for $5 a month
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Zegnat (I was going to create an AP Actor object for myself on my homepage, but I was told Mastodon wouldn’t support it anyway :P)
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Zegnat I am testing a little service that will poll the Mastodon API for the instance’s toots, then send webmentions for all the links in those toots.
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Zegnat So then if someone mentions a blog post of yours on the instance, a webmention from the toot will be sent to your blog.
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[jgmac1106] https://indieweb.me/web/statuses/100762973587960457
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Loqi [jgmac1106] @mastohost @xtof We are trying to see if we can enable webmentions from indieweb.me is it okay to poll the server every ten mintues? Is there anything about polling in the ToS
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Zegnat thanks!
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[jgmac1106] oooh okay but nothing like being able to reply to toots or keeping toots threaded on your website and mastodon... still even a generic webmention would be awesome
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Zegnat If I can get this working it could bridge all sorts of services of my chosing. I can probably have it sent webmentions for any website that offers a feed...
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Zegnat This is just the webmentions part. Whether your website then checks for in-reply-to and handles threading and what not is up to you
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[jgmac1106] https://indieweb.me/web/statuses/100763007590507826
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Loqi [Masto.host] @jgmac1106 @xtof Once every ten minutes is more than reasonable, you can even go higher than that. I don't think I have any specifics on my ToS about API calls as Mastodon comes with it's own limits by default and I never had a situation where I need...
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Zegnat Nice, thanks again [jgmac1106] for playing middle-man!
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[jgmac1106] I am in admin on indieweb.me if you need my credentials for anything let me know
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Zegnat I am planning on only using the public unauthenticated API. That’s another nice part. Theoretically if this works it can work for any mastodon instance
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[jgmac1106] cool as I don't want to be admin of anything
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Zegnat Well. If you want to enable webmention sending for an instance, you’d have to admin the scripts yourself ;) I am not planning on running the next bridgy and start sending webmentions for every mastodon instance in existence
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[jgmac1106] see my matching sentiment above, more a fan of decentralization than federation
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[jgmac1106] can't get aperture to find a feed on this page https://andheblogs.andyrush.net/
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[jgmac1106] but I can go to https://andheblogs.andyrush.net/feed/
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Zegnat looks
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Zegnat !mf2 https://andheblogs.andyrush.net/
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Kaja_ https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fandheblogs.andyrush.net%2F
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[jgmac1106] thx
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Zegnat I can’t tell you why. Aperture is running the page through an mf2 parser and checking the rel-urls. If I do that manually I can spot the feeds :/
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[jgmac1106] haven't been following the microformat feeds as these are mainly all wordpress sites
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Zegnat It should find the RSS feed using the microformats parser
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[jgmac1106] yeah I can spot them manullay myself too, just couldn't recognize it, no big deal
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Zegnat This is what it does (if you want to read some code): https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/blob/b618f9afc683ab47d332fd157145977d94419ff0/lib/XRay/Feeds.php#L78-L104
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Zegnat And the RSS feed URL is found, it has the rel="alternate", and the type="application/rss+xml". So Aperture should definitely find it.
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Zegnat You can file an issue against apperture with the input URL and the expected feed URL. aaronpk can probably debug this better. I see no direct and obvious way why it would be failing
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www.svenknebel.de edited /Post_Kinds_Plugin (+201) "add article about adding new kinds by chrisaldrich to See Also" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /rel-me (+176) "/* Open Networks */ added definition...still happy to change the title if folks have better phrase" (view diff)
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swentel ooh aperture is down, but I guess that's already known :)
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aaronpk Zegnat: who told you you can't have an AP actor object on your home page? they are wrong
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@aaronpk ↩️ I'm not sure what you mean... the vast majority of interactions happen because of polling web pages rather than websub, and even webmentions -- while the notification itself is a push -- require fetching the site to get the actual data. (twitter.com/_/status/1043151949804101632)
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@iChris Investigating Webmentions a bit this morning - think trackback/pingback but modernized? - and wondering if this plugin is the way to go for #WordPress? https://wordpress.org/plugins/webmention/ Or is there a way to implement Webmentions manually without too much hacking? https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/1043172099974733824)
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Zegnat aaronpk, Mastodon is going to require webfinger et al. No way to just make https://vanderven.se/martijn/ also serve an AP response (e.g. through conneg) as I understood it
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Loqi Martijn van der Ven
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aaronpk webfinger doesn't require conneg
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aaronpk i ended up writing a little service that you can hook up to a static site to let the service handle all the AP stuff
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Zegnat No, but I am saying I would want conneg and not webfinger ;)
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Zegnat I’ll get back to it at some point
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[manton] This has been difficult to debug in Mastodon because there are essentially 2 forms of identity for a single account: the actual @username@domain.com handle and the ActivityPub actor URL. I've been testing multiple handles pointing to the same actor, for example, which may confuse Mastodon.
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aaronpk the @username@domain syntax is purely for display/discovery, but doesn't reflect any canonical ID of the user
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aaronpk mastodon uses webfinger to turn that into a URL
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[manton] What URL do you mean, the .well-known URL or the actor URL?
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aaronpk the actor URL
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aaronpk the other tricky thing is there is an "id" which is a URL which is never displayed or linked anywhere, vs the "url" which is displayed on a profile
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[manton] In my experience, that's not quite right. For example, manton@micro.blog and manton@manton.org use the same actor but seem out of sync in Mastodon. I think Mastodon uses a combination of the handle and either .well-form domain or actor to form the identity of the account.
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aaronpk the "id" needs to be the activitypub actor object, but the "url" doesn't
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[manton] Also noticed this thread from last year: https://github.com/tootsuite/mastodon/issues/5523
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Loqi [snarfed] #5523 ActivityPub Like HTTP 422 error: "Validation failed: Username has already been taken"
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[manton] > Yes currently we parse the webfinger domain as the normalized host of the actor's id property
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aaronpk ahh
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aaronpk i must have encountered that as well since i had to have the webfinger document on the same domain as the actor URL when i was setting up my proxy thingy
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aaronpk if you want to see a really hacked up (but minimal) version of what you need to make a profile visible in mastodon, check out https://avocado.lol/.well-known/user.json
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Loqi AnAvocado
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aaronpk it's both a webfinger response as well as an activitypub actor
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aaronpk it's a static file, and the inbox is on a different domain which handles actually delivering content
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aaronpk i think you can get around that hostname limitation using the same trick bridgy fed uses, which is that there's a way to tell mastodon that the webfinger document is at a different url, not {host}/.well-known/webfinger
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aaronpk so you could make the webfinger document from manton.org actually live on micro.blog so that all the accounts actually live under micro.blog
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aaronpk bridgy fed uses an http redirect, but it also works with the host-meta file telling it the webfinger url is elsewhere https://avocado.lol/.well-known/host-meta
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[manton] That's pretty much what I've done. I redirect custom domain WebFinger requests to Micro.blog, with a Micro.blog-based actor URL. Still seems confusing and possibly creates problems, since I'm having trouble delivering messages.
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aaronpk hm maybe the redirect isn't enough then
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aaronpk oh also the annoying thing is mastodon caches these discovery docs a long time so it makes it really hard to test changes
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[manton] Yep, that's true too.
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aaronpk you could try the host-meta trick to tell it the webfinger URL is on micro.blog
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[kevinmarks] WebFinger is such a lot of nonsense
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[manton] I wish WebFinger wasn't used too. I think the root problem is there's no single piece of data for identity. It's kind of an undocumented mashup of WebFinger, username, and actor.
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aaronpk "undocumented" describes it well
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[manton] Portability is difficult, maybe impossible.
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aaronpk the whole system is very much created assuming very simple 1:1 deployments of users and servers
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aaronpk set up an app on a server and host a bunch of accounts
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[manton] Right. For example, if you wanted to move aaronpk@aaronparecki.com to a Mastodon-hosted instance, how could you do it? I'm not sure.
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aaronpk they didn't put a lot of thought into that kind of portability/delegation
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stevestreza Account migration has been an open issue on the Mastodon repo for almost two years now
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aaronpk account migration is an even simpler problem since they really were only talking about moving between mastodon instances 😂
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jacky it's not a feature I think that's core to the project
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jacky I'm curious if Plemora has considered it tho
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[manton] This is especially frustrating because many people assume it's a Mastodon feature: I own my data and can move to another instance. Except that you can't.
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[manton] (To balance that critique... I think there's a lot of really positive things to come out of Mastodon.)
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[manton] Another option I have to solve this identity mixup: I could require Micro.blog users to use custom domains for ActivityPub. So manton@micro.blog wouldn't work at all. It would only work with manton@manton.org. That's "better" because there's an obvious single account, but would limit it to people who had a nice domain name.
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aaronpk you could also go the other way and not support custom domains at all
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aaronpk just have it be a micro.blog feature like the rest of the social network services that micro.blog provides
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[manton] Honestly I don't want to do that. I think it would undermine Micro.blog's pitch that using custom domains is better for owning your data and being able to migrate away.
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aaronpk yep true
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aaronpk i think right now the two will always look like different accounts from mastodon's point of view so the easiest path forward is to just treat them completely separately anywya
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aaronpk so someone follows manton@micro.blog first, then later you add a custom domain and then the next person follows manton@manton.org, but both of those look like different accounts in mastodon and everything works fine. since you can't actually migrate an account in mastodon yet anyway, just punt that part to later.
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aaronpk i do still think there's a way to tie them together if you're willing to dive into the depths of edge cases in mastodon's code, that's just a lot harder
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[manton] Thanks. That seems reasonable. I think I'll dive into the depths a little more, but if I can't solve it I'l make them separate.
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aaronpk tying them together also may only work in mastodon and not in pleroma or others
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[manton] Good point.
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aaronpk mastodon originally started with ostatus, but projects starting with activitypub only don't have some of the mechanisms you can take advantage of
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aaronpk like the host-meta thing, which mastodon has, but isn't part of webfinger or activitypub
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[manton] Ah. That's a strong argument for not using host-meta, then.
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aaronpk i *think* the host-meta thing is the only way to have your account name and actor URL on different domains
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[kevinmarks] But it ignores the websub part of OStatus, which does define migration
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aaronpk but it's been a few weeks since i've thought about this so i could be wrong
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stevestreza Thanks for that tip on host-meta, I didnt know that was a thing when I last explored running Pleroma on a different server
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willnorris use of host-meta with webfinger is a vestige from previous drafts of the spec (https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?difftype=--hwdiff&url2=draft-ietf-appsawg-webfinger-03.txt).
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willnorris ostatus, gnu social, mastadon, etc never moved off the old flow. Occasionally, I'll get requests to add it back to webfinger.net (https://github.com/webfinger/client.webfinger.net/issues/9)
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Loqi [Gargron] #9 Old XRD format?
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tantek.com edited /indieweb.me (+230) "expand dfn / purpose a bit, add see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Unladen_Follow (+33) "link, followings, see alsos" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /TK (+52) "see also wikipedia page for TK" (view diff)
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tantek__ !tell eddie does your site/sw support POSSE threading of replies? e.g. your reply to Jeena's post https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/09/20/16/reply/ appears to lack a POSSE tweet @-reply to Jeena's POSSE copy: https://twitter.com/jeena/status/1042912498226221056
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@jeena I had a look into my logs and it looks like #Micro.blog doesn't send any webmentions to my site when so... more at https://jeena.net/notes/970 (twitter.com/_/status/1042912498226221056)
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Loqi [Eddie Hinkle] Hey Jeena, Because of the way Micro.blog is architected, it treats original posts and replies differently. It should be sending webmentions for original posts, but it doesn’t currently send webmentions to posts that are in reply to other posts. I t...
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tantek__ Also I noticed your reply wasn't showing up on Jeena's post, so I tried manually entering it into the webmention form there, and got this back from Jeena's webmention endpoint: " We're sorry, but something went wrong. We've been notified about this issue and we'll take a look at it shortly."
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tantek__ maybe I'll try a reply myself
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@t ↩️ did you see @EddieHinkle’s reply? https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/09/20/16/reply/ I tried sending it via your webmention form, got this error: “We're sorry, but something went wrong. We've been notified about this issue and we'll take a look at it shortly.” http://tantek.com/t4wa1 (twitter.com/_/status/1043252719216156672)
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tantek__ like that
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tantek__ interesting - his site got my reply without error: https://jeena.net/notes/970
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Loqi [Jeena] I had a look into my logs and it looks like #Micro.blog doesn't send any webmentions to my site when someone comments, which is a pity, because when I trigger it manually, their comment shows up nicely on my website.
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sknebel [manton], does micro.blog check the Link header for webmention endpoints?
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[eddie] tantek: that’s very odd. My site POSSEs Twitter and GitHub replies but only if they have u-syndication on their post. His note doesn’t have u-syndication so it didn’t POSSE to twitter
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Loqi [eddie]: tantek__ left you a message 15 minutes ago: does your site/sw support POSSE threading of replies? e.g. your reply to Jeena's post https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/09/20/16/reply/ appears to lack a POSSE tweet @-reply to Jeena's POSSE copy: https://twitter.com/jeena/status/1042912498226221056
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[eddie] Also that made me look at telegraph and it looks like telegraph got the same error: https://telegraph.p3k.io/webmention/12T7tv9SzA27TsTYIM/details
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tantek__ I wonder what /Falcon did differently to have my webmention "succeed", well, at least show up, I still need to add proper webmention sending error logging
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tantek__ and I'm still manually adding my in-reply-tos
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tantek__ what is syndication discovery
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "syndication discovery" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "syndication discovery is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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tantek__ what is syndication
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Loqi syndication may refer to the practice of syndication (like practicing POSSE to ownyourdata), a specific copy or instance of syndication, or the u-syndication property https://indieweb.org/syndication
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tantek__ [eddie], FWIW the 500 means its Jeena's server that is having a problem
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tantek__ it's*
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tantek.com edited /posse-post-discovery (+71) "clarify dfn vs why helpful" (view diff)
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tantek__ syndication discovery is /posse-post-discovery
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /syndication_discovery (+33) "prompted by tantek__ and redirect added by tantek__" (view diff)
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[manton] @sknebel Good question. I think it only checks for <link> tags, but I'll confirm that.
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tantek.com edited /posse-post-discovery (+25) "Category:syndication" (view diff)
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tantek__ manton, if it helps, webmention.rocks has tests for that
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[manton] That does seem likely the problem here now that I'm checking jeena.net. There are a bunch of IndieWeb link tags, but Webmention is in an HTTP header.
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[manton] So, my fault. Although easy to work around too.
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Zegnat Even if micro.blog didn’t deliver the webmention at first post, the manual url entry or the telegraph sending should have gotten it through. Likely still something on Jeena’s end upon verification.
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tantek__ Zegnat, we may be talking about two different things
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tantek__ the manual url entry or telegraph sending was for eddie's indieweb post, nothing to do with micro.blog
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Zegnat I thought manton apologising was also about the reply to jeena. Sorry if I misunderstood
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tantek.com edited /posse-post-discovery (+38) "dfn tweak, plurals" (view diff)
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Zegnat Past midnight, I should probably be thinking about hitting the hay. Have a good one all :)
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tantek__ Zegnat, yes I think you mixed two things. 1. replies on micro.blog to Jeena's post that Jeena claims he is not getting webmentions for, and 2. eddie and my attempts to reply to Jeena
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tantek__ (all on the same post, of course, just to confuse things further :) )
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Zegnat Not only that, but eddie’s reply is hosted by micro.blog ;) Which is why I thought 1 and 2 were the same issue
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tantek__ Oh! I missed that! https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/09/20/16/reply/ is hosted by micro.blog?
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Loqi [Eddie Hinkle] Hey Jeena, Because of the way Micro.blog is architected, it treats original posts and replies differently. It should be sending webmentions for original posts, but it doesn’t currently send webmentions to posts that are in reply to other posts. I t...
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Zegnat I thought so?
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tantek__ I mean in the view source it has a bunch of .microblog CSS
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Zegnat Or maybe I am misinterpreting it because with CSS off (my default browser settings) that page is mostly just a microblog logo …
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Zegnat fatwigo :(
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tantek__ heh
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tantek__ wat
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Zegnat What is fatwigo?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "fatwigo" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "fatwigo is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Zegnat What is fatwigoo?
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Loqi Fatwigoo is an embedded SVG image that depends on (external) CSS for its width https://indieweb.org/Fatwigoo
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Zegnat Ha, I actually used eddie’s homepage as an example there!
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tantek__ fatwigo is /Fatwigoo
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Loqi ok
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loqi.me created /fatwigo (+21) "prompted by Zegnat and redirect added by tantek__" (view diff)
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tantek__ Ok that's worth pointing out
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[manton] Eddie's posts aren't served by Micro.blog, but I think he does send an extra Webmention to Micro.blog too so that the replies are threaded into the conversation there.
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tantek__ eddie, when you use indigenous to post a reply post to your site, does indigenous send webmentions (itself or via telegraph), or does it assume "your micropub server" (in this case micro.blog presumably) will send the webmention(s)?
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Zegnat OK, then it was just my mistake because I was only seeing a big micro.blog logo. Thanks, [manton]!
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tantek__ my mistake too because I was seeing all the .microblog CSS rules in the source
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[manton] No problem. It is a lot to kind of unravel in this case. (Also agree that there are likely 2 related issues.)
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tantek__ ok so we are back to two distinctly different scenarios (1. replies to jeena from micro.blog, 2. eddie's reply to jeena)
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Zegnat This is that reply for me, only the top third or so of the logo even fits on my screen: https://i.imgur.com/HLNwr3i.png
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Zegnat I believe those empty bullet points are supposed to be other logos, but those are CSS-only logos with no text fallback.
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tantek__ !tell eddie re: "His note doesn’t have u-syndication so it didn’t POSSE to twitter" - file an issue for him to add u-syndication links to his posts! https://github.com/jeena/jeena.net/issues
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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doubleloop.net edited /jam (+532) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Add my setup to examples" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /PixelFed (+169) "expand dfn" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rel-me (-89) "replace new term "open networks" with existing software and services subheads" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rel-me (+38) "shrink some headings, links" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rel-me (+84) "/* Software Support */ PixelFed" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /rel-me (+21) "move tweet about pixelfed support to section" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Mastodon (+39) "/* IndieWeb Support */ rel-me support" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Mastodon (+97) "rel-me support of verfified sites screenshot" (view diff)
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loqi.me edited /CNN (+41) "tantek__ added "[[text-first design]]" to "See Also"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /CNN (+9) "NPR" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /NPR (+161) "has a text-only version (via benwerd) just as CNN does" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /text-first_design (+135) "News Sites" (view diff)
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gRegorLove That reminds me to add rel-me to indiebookclub profiles