#dev 2018-09-20

2018-09-20 UTC
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loqi.me created /gRSShopper (+370) "prompted by [jgmac1106] and dfn added by [jgmac1106]" (view diff)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ I have been playing with webmentions for badging. I think we can do this all from our own domains, allowing learners to own evidence, and just creating a ledger of 2-3 permalinks. No backpacks, issuers, etc. Just two websites talking together (http://jgregorymcverry.com/7112-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1042575149529280512)
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tantek__ [jgmac1106]++ great summary
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Loqi [jgmac1106] has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (52 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] yeah you are right webmentions, but its built...just not scalable...have to do it manually one html file at a time, I do hope to hope to leave NYC with a system...or atelast directions for piggybacking off of third party stuff, attached to my mf2 course templates that others can use
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tantek__ [jgmac1106]: sounds like it's *prototyped*, not really "built" yet for easy use :)
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tantek__ prototyped is definitely dev-level
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[jgmac1106] makes sense working on the javascript forms for badge creation now...so prototype perfect label
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tantek__ prototypes are VERY useful to explore and rapidly iterate without creating backcompat challenges
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tantek__ this so much this: "No backpacks, issuers, etc. Just two websites talking together" - [jgmac1106]
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tantek__ from: http://jgregorymcverry.com/7112-2/
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] I have been playing with webmentions for badging. I think we can do this all from our own domains, allowing learners to own evidence, and just creating a ledger of 2-3 permalinks. No backpacks, issuers, etc. Just two websites talking together
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boffosocko.com edited /backfeed (+405) "/* Science Communications */ Plum Analytics with example" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /next-hwc (+0) "next!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (+0) "next hwc" (view diff)
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[jgmac1106] here is where I landed for a following post type: http://jgregorymcverry.com/7117-2/
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] @jenroberts
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[jgmac1106] wtf....every time I add a link to soemone's twitter page stupid ass WP strips it away
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[jgmac1106] fixed...it keeps injecting an extra quotation mark whenever I manually add a link...weird
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Zegnat That sounds like a really weird problem
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[jgmac1106] it might have been my typo...Wp tried to guess at what it shoudl inject when your html is wrong
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[jgmac1106] but I think I got the following post type correct....now....going back to revise all the older ones
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Zegnat !mf2 http://jgregorymcverry.com/7117-2/
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Kaja_ https://php.microformats.io/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fjgregorymcverry.com%2F7117-2%2F
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] @jenroberts1
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] @jenroberts1
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Zegnat That looks weird
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Zegnat Aah. Please remove the p-name and u-url from the h-card.
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[jgmac1106] okay,
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[jgmac1106] I thought you put those in someone's hcard
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Zegnat Nope
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Zegnat Well. Yes, but not like this, haha
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jeremycherfas I didn't even know you could make an h-card for someone else. But why not?
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[jgmac1106] http://jgregorymcverry.com/7117-2/
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] I just added Literacy, Technology, Policy, Etc….A Blog by @jenroberts1 to my following page at https://jgregorymcverry.com/following #BeYourownSocialNetwork
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Zegnat So .h-card.p-title inside .h-entry actually means the .h-card is the value for the .h-entry’s .p-title.
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Zegnat Whenever an h-* and a p-* class exist on the same element, it means to use the h-* as the value of the p-* attribute on the parent.
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[jgmac1106] okay that is better
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[jgmac1106] wow there is an esoteric rule I never knew
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Zegnat That’s why something like .u-like-of.h-cite or .u-follow-of.h-card will work. Because you want those h- objects as values on the entries like-of and follow-of properties.
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Zegnat E.g. the example follow-of I gave: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-09-18/1537282279639500
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Loqi [Zegnat] <a class="u-follow-of h-card" href="$url">$name</a> - should be enough for following a person
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[jgmac1106] yeah that is where I started, the problem for me is i am sepearting the hcard to also @ mention them on twitter, mastodon, or microblog
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[jgmac1106] so I am linking to their website on the u-follow but trying to link to the twitter account in their h-card
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Zegnat <a class="h-card" href="$url">$name</a> is enough to mention someone then.
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Zegnat Without any p-name and u-url classes, those properties will be implied by the parser to be the element’s content and the element’s href respectively.
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Zegnat (Plus some other heuristics and things, but you don’t have to care about those for this example.)
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[jgmac1106] okay thx, changing my template
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Zegnat That reminds me, I should put that minimal person-follow HTML on the wiki ...
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[jgmac1106] I was just going there to add my example
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[jgmac1106] what I want to do is play with links manager to see if I can get the person-follow HTML on the wiki to display for each link on https://jgregorymcverry.com/following
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Loqi [Laura Fleming] Thank you. I appreciate the discourse around these important topics.
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[jgmac1106] .......well looks likes there are issues all over that page, mainly need to add my h-card
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vanderven.se martijn edited /follow (+439) "/* Brainstorming */ microformats2 & HTML; minimal example based on [[note]]." (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /follow (+406) "/* Indieweb examples */ added jgmac1106 example" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /follow (-2) "/* Greg McVerry */" (view diff)
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Zegnat Nice!
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Zegnat [jgmac1106]++
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Loqi [jgmac1106] has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (53 in all channels)
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[jgmac1106] zegnat++ thanks for the help
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Loqi zegnat has 60 karma in this channel over the last year (154 in all channels)
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@sil ↩️ https://kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/29/enabling-webmentions/ discusses that in more detail, along with webmentions and how they might be a good replacement; they haven't seen much take-up, though. (There's much less of a community now than there was when I invented pingback.) (twitter.com/_/status/1042741819879116801)
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@sil ↩️ Webmentions might also have a spam problem; that's discussed more in https://www.kryogenix.org/days/2014/11/30/vouching-for-webmentions-hashing-for-vouches/ along with one potential way to help solve. (twitter.com/_/status/1042741924149518336)
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@sil ↩️ @jmtd yup. That's exactly what webmentions are trying to be :) (twitter.com/_/status/1042745812688756738)
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[kevinmarks] if you're citing them
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[kevinmarks] !tell [aaronpk] looks like mastodon will verify a self-link with a rel=me https://mastodon.social/@kevinmarks Not sure what it does for shadow profiles
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Zegnat Not really a cite, more of a resource-mention and not a person-mention.
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[kevinmarks] RDF << Aaron Swartz's unfinished book on the programmable web has a lot to say about RDF https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Aaron_Swartz_s_A_Programmable_Web_An_Unfinished_Work.pdf
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Loqi ok, I added "Aaron Swartz's unfinished book on the programmable web has a lot to say about RDF https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Aaron_Swartz_s_A_Programmable_Web_An_Unfinished_Work.pdf" to the "See Also" section of /RDF https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=51851&oldid=51112
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aaronpk Does mastodon show the verified check mark for remote users too? Are there docs on what that API looks like?
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[kevinmarks] not sure
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[kevinmarks] I asked https://xoxo.zone/@KevinMarks/100758040356223247
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Loqi [Kevin Marks] @Gargron do you verify links in a profile mirrored from another instance ? Or do you trust that instance to verify them and put them in the api?
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[kevinmarks] It looks like changing the profile links triggers the rel-me crawl, but I don't know how it works with mirrored profiles
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[kevinmarks] https://mastodon.social/@Gargron/100755244502303431
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Loqi [Eugen] @postmasterdoggo @qubyte @moonman What's wrong with the blue check mark is that it gatekeeps useful features and that it's selectively provided.Voluntary identity verification that does not involve real names or documents is fine, and more than that,...
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[kevinmarks] hm, could indieauth.com use mastodon to verify a domain now? They have rel=me links and an oauth api
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sknebel omg that thread
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sknebel and yes, indielogin.com could add mastodon from what I see (and could before, since it doesn't strictly rely on rel=me)
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Zegnat Does Mastodon expose an OAuth (or something) endpoint that could be used to proof ownership?
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Zegnat still hasn’t looked at the full API
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aaronpk I would rather see mastodon implement IndieAuth directly otherwise I have to add another custom OAuth handler for indielogin.com
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Zegnat I guess this is where you just tell people indielogin.com is open-source and they are free to add Mastodon handlers if they need it ;)
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aaronpk Also I haven't looked at how mastodon handles registering api keys for OAuth but that doesn't sound like fun ether
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aaronpk since I'd need a unique client ID/secret per mastodon instance
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aaronpk Which is why IndieAuth makes more sense
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Zegnat IndieAuth++
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Loqi IndieAuth has 2 karma over the last year
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sknebel afaik it's an unauthenticated api call to register
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aaronpk That makes sense but lol that's so silly
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aaronpk Also I rely on matching "twitter.com" and "github.com" in rel=me URLs to find the user's username and know which OAuth provider to use, but there's no way to tell by looking at the URL that it's a mastodon profile so it would also take an additional check to test if the hostname is running mastodon which id have to run on every rel=me url
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sknebel true
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aaronpk So no it's not practical to add mastodon to indielogin.com :-)
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Zegnat Yep. That is always going to be an issue with these self-hosted OAuth things. Until they all implement IndieAuth
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[jgmac1106] ....goes to delete post saying can't wait to log into site with his mastodon account..actually will just update with link to this chat
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[kevinmarks] you could check for the rel="salmon" link
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aaronpk I would really rather not hack up a less than ideal solution for a project which is in active development which also fits the goals and model of IndieAuth
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aaronpk Anything I do along those lines would be specific to mastodon whereas we could create a solution that actually works in a way that the other fediverse projects could also adopt
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[kevinmarks] you don't currently check for indieauth endpoints on linked sites, do you?
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sknebel yes it does
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aaronpk I don't think so?
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[kevinmarks] eg If I rel=me mutually between a static site and a known one, I can log in as the static site using my known?
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sknebel oh, on linked sites
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sknebel sorry
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aaronpk But that's how i could support mastodon/known/micro.blog without special casing them
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[kevinmarks] that would be neat, as currently github is privileged (and twitter used to be)
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aaronpk Twitter is still
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[kevinmarks] oh it is?
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aaronpk indielogin.com has always supported twitter
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[kevinmarks] not for me
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[kevinmarks] oh wait, is that me delegating through indieauth.com?
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[kevinmarks] derp
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[kevinmarks] so if I linked, say http://faint.design/ to known.kevinmarks.com I could auth through that too?
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aaronpk I don't think known can be a standalone auth endpoint
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aaronpk but I could add support for second level IndieAuth which would enable things like that
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[kevinmarks] yes, thats what I meant, sorry - rel=me linking rather than auth/token linking
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[kevinmarks] so silos are less special than they are now
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[kevinmarks] hah. That could also mean that if you rel-me from twitter to your indieweb site you could prove it's your twitter without logging into twitter
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aaronpk lol
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[kevinmarks] I heard you like auth, so I put auth in your auth
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[manton] [aaronpk] You can register an app (and get back a client ID and secret) with an Mastodon API call. You're suppose to do this once per instance and then cache the results.
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aaronpk That's too bad, it would be easier to use the app's url as the client ID like IndieAuth does
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[kevinmarks] instead of having to respond to an SMS to a number that now belongs to someone else
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[jgmac1106] hopefully I did my h-card correctly here: http://jgmac1106.micro.blog/about-me/
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Loqi Greg McVerry
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[jgmac1106] of course none of the links on @Gargron@mastodon.social are verified was goign to use that as the examplew
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[jgmac1106] using you instead Kevin
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[jgmac1106] nevermind using mine.
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /rel-me (+1415) "added new section called Open Networks, described rel=me in both Mastodon and micro.blog" (view diff)
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /rel-me (+0) "/* micro.blog */ fixed vern tense agreement" (view diff)
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[jgmac1106] Vern agreement, Ernest would be so proud of me
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jgregorymcverry.com edited /rel-me (+0) "/* micro.blog */ trying to fix micro.blog link" (view diff)
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jeremycherfas discovers just how useful the Firefox console and debugger can be
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GWG Who has strong feelings about git submodules?
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swentel I personally hate them
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swentel that's strong right ? :)
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GWG I don't think I have a better choice
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GWG For what I need to do
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jacky Firefox console > Chrome console imo
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swentel what's the setup?
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GWG WordPress library dependency
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swentel would composer be an option?
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GWG I'd have to include the entire vendor tree in the repository
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GWG I can't have the end user do it
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GWG I was discussing this in WordPress, but I think it's a broader dev conversation about pros and cons.
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swentel oh, it's for a wordpress plugin that needs a dependency .. hmm yeah, tricky
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GWG jackjamieson likes my mf2 parsing code and I'd rather we share and iterate on the same code for different uses than write two versions
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GWG Basically, xray for WordPress
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swentel hmm the drupal module relies on that
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GWG Oh well, best of a bad set of choices
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GWG What, xray?
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swentel yeah
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GWG I don't
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swentel the modules comes with a composer.json file
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swentel didn't really want to reinvent the wheel
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GWG Got some inspiration but wrote my own that does something that xray doesn't
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GWG OGP to MF2
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GWG For generating previews of sites without mf2
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swentel hmm interesting
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Zegnat The git submodules will atleast keep your report somewhat clean. No need for it to track all the files in the external dependency. But it doesn't help at all with the shared dependency issue, right?
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GWG It does as long as jackjamieson and I update the plugins whenever we update the dependency
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Zegnat Right. Yes, if all the plugin authors make sure to keep their dependencies synched...
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GWG It's a mess
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GWG We had this with php mf2 when pfefferle hadn't released an update and I had that included the new version
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GWG I am going to have to do some sort of version checking
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Zegnat Version checking doesn't help you much when you can't overwrite an older version that may already be loaded :(
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GWG It can tell people
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jackjamieson I'm not very well-versed with managing dependencies like this, and WordPress makes things difficult, but could the best option be that we each assign parse-this a namespace in our respective plugins? That way each instance could run separately, right?
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Zegnat Not if you are using the same base files. Namespaces are per file. So you would both need a separate clone of parse-this in your respective plugins
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Zegnat There is no way to dynamically load files under a different namespace. I tried ~month ago when we discussed this during vHWC
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jackjamieson Right, I remember that
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jackjamieson Hmm, I'm still stumped then
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Zegnat If you share a dependency, whoever loads it first picks the version. Plugins that load later can either hope their usage is compatible, or choose to not call upon that code at all.
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Zegnat I am still a bit surprised WordPress doesn’t have a way to solve this themselves
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jackjamieson I agree, I wonder if there has been any work to implement a dependency manager in wordpres
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GWG It's been a 5 year long issue
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GWG I think that I am just going to hope it works
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GWG WordPress ignores the issue mostly
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GWG Despite it being an issue since the beginning of plugins
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GWG I slept on it and tried the best I could
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swentel snarfed, when I hit follow (from @swentel to @realize.be), does that mean a request should've come in at fed.brid.gy ? I wonder whether you're able to see that coming in ?
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snarfed swentel: yes, i expect your mastodon instance tried to send an AP Follow to Bridgy Fed, which it doesn't currently handle
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snarfed i'll look
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swentel ah right
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swentel it should've come from mastodon.social/@swentel
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snarfed swentel: when was it?
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snarfed nm i see it
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swentel euh let me see
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swentel ah k
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snarfed swentel: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/issues/21#issuecomment-423296314
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Loqi [snarfed] yes! here it is. bridgy fed responded with HTTP 501 Not Implemented. `POST https://fed.brid.gy/realize.be/inbox` ```json { "@context": [ "https://www.w3.org/ns/activitystreams", "https://w3id.org/security/v1", { "manua...
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swentel ok, it's quite cool that comes in
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swentel even that it shows up
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swentel I even checked the date when my account was created
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swentel and that was in may already
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swentel 2018-05-25T16:39:10.741Z to be exact heh
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swentel snarfed, so basically, need to figure out to send a reply now in activitypub.py .. will see if I can figure that out, my python is quite rusty :)
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snarfed swentel: you can do it! :P setup instructions in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/#development
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swentel doing my best :)
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swentel I'd love to finish this whole dance, it would be freaking awesome
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swentel hmm snarfed, is it possible to run this locally ? I guess not.
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swentel got to the 'To deploy to App Engine' part of dev install, but getting required permissions now (to be fair, it's an adventure right now hehe)
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swentel Permissions error fetching application [apps/bridgy-federated]
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snarfed swentel: definitely possible locally! i usually develop first with unit tests, but then you can run it with eg `dev_appserver.py --log_level debug app.yaml`
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snarfed and yes, you don't have permissions on the prod instance, so you can't deploy to it
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swentel hehe, yeah, I figured that ..
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swentel oh interesting that dev command
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snarfed feel free to update the docs to add that dev_appserver.py command and note that deploying is only for project owners!
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swentel that is going to install the 'gcloud app Python Extensions' as well
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swentel as I didn't see that either
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snarfed yeah i think that's mentioned in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy-fed/#development with a slightly different name, gcloud-appengine-python-extras
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snarfed feel free to update docs! and thanks for jumping in!
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swentel oh right, the id is app-engine-python-extras
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snarfed (we should also just remove the "App Engine Python SDK" mention in the docs altogether, it's entirely outdated)
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swentel yes indeed
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swentel wow
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swentel it actually runs ... :)
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swentel not that I doubt your skills, I just had no idea what I was doing :D
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doubleloop.net edited /watch (+369) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Add section on my use of watch posts" (view diff)
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snarfed swentel++
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Loqi swentel has 7 karma in this channel over the last year (16 in all channels)
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snarfed Loqi?
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swentel well, let's not party to hard yet .. :)
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swentel snarfed, does this ring a bell to you 'ImportError: No module named future_builtins' - getting 500 even on even a simple GET request - apologies for the possible noob question :/
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snarfed hmm! looking
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swentel I could use google first of course ... hehe
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snarfed ah i bet you're on python 3
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snarfed does python --version say that?
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swentel (local) swentel@swenteldoos:/home/other/bridgy-fed$ python --version
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swentel Python 2.7.12
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snarfed hmm ok
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swentel (local) swentel@swenteldoos:/home/other/bridgy-fed$ pip install future
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swentel Requirement already satisfied: future in ./local/lib/python2.7/site-packages (0.16.0)
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snarfed right
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snarfed hmm future_builtins is actually part of python 2, since 2.6. https://docs.python.org/2.7/library/future_builtins.html#module-future_builtins
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snarfed odd. can you post the full stack trace? anywhere
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doubleloop Is it be possible to use Bridgy Fed in the same way as it works with twitter? (rather than my site be its own instance.) I have an existing Mastodon account that I'd like to keep, but it'd be cool for the syndication to happen via bridgy (rather than my hack), and would be amazing to get the backfeed too
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sknebel no
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snarfed ...but heh that is somewhat frequently requested
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snarfed doubleloop: feel free to file a bridgy (non-fed) feature request! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues
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doubleloop thanks, will do!
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swentel snarfed, https://gist.github.com/swentel/4e49b549a627267512017a11a43f3146
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swentel not sure if that's enough
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snarfed thx that's good
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snarfed swentel: honestly i have no clue why it's not loading that module
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swentel hehe no problem
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snarfed can you run the unit tests?
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snarfed i'd happily accept a PR with a passing unit test, even if you don't get dev_appserver working
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swentel hmm seems not :/
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swentel (local) swentel@swenteldoos:/home/other/bridgy-fed$ python -m unittest discover
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swentel WARNING:root:Couldn't load App Engine SDK!
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swentel EEEEEEEEE
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snarfed did you add it to your PYTHONPATH?
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swentel yep
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snarfed ugh that `/usr/local` path is probably old. it's not gcloud. we should change it to something that autodiscovers it. eg mine is actually /opt/homebrew-cask/Caskroom/google-cloud-sdk/latest/google-cloud-sdk/platform/google_appengine (from mac os x homebrew)
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sknebel yeah, kinda looks like 2 python installs mixing
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doubleloop.net edited /Microsub (+61) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Add my setup" (view diff)
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sknebel ./local/lib/python2.7/site-packages vs /home/other/bridgy-fed/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/
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snarfed swentel: ok this should give you the path: gcloud info |grep -o -E '/[^:]+google_appengine'
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snarfed put the dir you get from that into your PYTHONPATH
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swentel swentel@swenteldoos:/home/other/bridgy-fed$ which gcloud
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swentel /usr/local/bin/google-cloud-sdk/bin/gcloud
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swentel so without /bin/gcloud ?
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snarfed nah, run this command: gcloud info | grep -o -E '/[^:]+google_appengine'
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swentel doesn't give anything ... :/
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snarfed hrmph. ok then i guess look through gcloud info, in the Python PATH section, to try to find the app engine dir
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snarfed (mine is /opt/homebrew-cask/Caskroom/google-cloud-sdk/latest/google-cloud-sdk/platform/google_appengine )
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snarfed sorry this is turning out so difficult!
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swentel no worries
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swentel YES
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swentel The server has either erred or is incapable of performing the requested operation.<br /><br />
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swentel Sorry, Follow activities are not supported yet.
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swentel woooot
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swentel that's what I wanted to see :)
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swentel snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 67 karma in this channel over the last year (123 in all channels)
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swentel ok, small party
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snarfed 🎉
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snarfed woo indeed! was that from dev_appserver? or unit test?
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swentel dev_appserver
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swentel still nothing from unit test though
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swentel so weird
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snarfed huh wow ok. i'm surprised adding to PYTHONPATH was necessary for dev_appserver
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snarfed also surprised it didn't fix unit tests...? sigh.
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swentel unit test gives
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swentel ImportError: No module named oauth_dropins.webutil.test
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snarfed ah ok. that we can figure out
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snarfed but if you want to move on w/dev_appserver for now, that's ok too
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swentel yeah let me see how far I can get with that .. :)
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swentel thanks for the help setting up already
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swentel will do a PR for the docs, maybe adding some 'gotchas' to it
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snarfed great! i did some of them already, will cc you
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gregorlove.com edited /Path (+1000) "site death dates, link, how to export" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /site-deaths (+270) "/* Upcoming */ Path dates, link to how to export" (view diff)
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@depone ↩️ und genau das vermitteln mir auch webmentions. <3 (twitter.com/_/status/1042885869173174272)
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@AndreJaenisch ↩️ I likely forget some links over today's writedown. Will add those at a later point. Since I have a static site, either reply to me here or write me an email. (Plan is to implement #webmention properly for comments) (twitter.com/_/status/1042911455534829569)
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@jeena I had a look into my logs and it looks like #Micro.blog doesn't send any webmentions to my site when so... more at https://jeena.net/notes/970 (twitter.com/_/status/1042912498226221056)
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snarfed ^ the bridgy-backfed wms on @depone's post https://danielehniss.de/2018/09/20/ermutigung/#comments are a fun example of preserving the threading from twitter
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snarfed (his site is wordpress)
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GWG Hi, snarfed
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snarfed hey GWG
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GWG We haven't chatted in a while
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GWG Anything new dev wise?
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snarfed indieweb wise, not much
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snarfed swentel is hacking on bridgy fed 👍
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GWG swentel is also the person who helped achieve my Micropub Android dreams
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