#dev 2018-09-30

2018-09-30 UTC
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[jgmac1106] number of spelling mistakes I made in last four posts suddenly makes me crave undo
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[jgmac1106] [aaronpk] what you made today I just realized could be basis of 4X4 grid I want in my remix machine, and I also thought why not just CSS gradients? Possibly a simpler interface then colorzillas, just choose two hex colors: http://www.colorzilla.com/gradient-editor/
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[jgmac1106] !tell Tantek another example of needing an undo, when your are POSSEing in multiple conversations at once and you respond to the wrong tweet: https://twitter.com/jgmac1106/status/1046246260754305025
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@jgmac1106 @glitch @mozilla Really @benwerd has it right w/  interoperability & open standards matter more than any metadata or markup discussion. I have tried so many things in badging over the years and I am finally close to something I can do myself. Just HTML. Bonus. (http://jgregorymcverry.com/7531-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1046246260754305025)
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[tantek] Yes! Replies are another great specific example of needing undo! A specific case of something sending a Webmention OR a POSSE threaded reply!
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Loqi [tantek]: [jgmac1106] left you a message 51 minutes ago: another example of needing an undo, when your are POSSEing in multiple conversations at once and you respond to the wrong tweet: https://twitter.com/jgmac1106/status/1046246260754305025
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jacky would it be an undo or a delete in that case?
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[jgmac1106] [Jacky_See] its perfect proof why undo better then delete
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[jgmac1106] I hate when I do that
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[jgmac1106] The tweet was sent a;ready, deleting on my blog doesn't erase that
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[jgmac1106] I had to go to Twitter and delete the tweet, as well and then retweet it to the proper thread, but either Bridgy or Twitter still recognized the duplicate, ended up having to go to twittter and not my wesbite, delete and then tweet as a reply on twitter
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jacky I mean why not just make a follow-up point that amends them?
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jacky that's the issue with multi-platform content
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Get that,  valuable  to me, that’s my goal. In terms of webmention badges  doubt anyone but other badging platforms  parsing #OpenBadges, webmentions own standard, don’t require microformats. Plenty of tools can handle both. (http://jgregorymcverry.com/7544-2/) (twitter.com/_/status/1046271063846514688)
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@fluffy Publ: Development Blog: Some thoughts on WebMention http://publ.beesbuzz.biz/blog/113-Some-thoughts-on-WebMention (twitter.com/_/status/1046274213286486016)
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@fluffy Oh nice, I just got my first non-synthetic webmention! And it 100% justifies me not automatically posting webmentions as comments on my site! (it's just a simple linkblog, nothing scandalous) (twitter.com/_/status/1046284547896147969)
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "restrictions of makeLenses" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "restrictions of makeLenses is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[schmarty] potentially awful question: why does discovery of a micropub media endpoint require discovery of the micropub endpoint followed by a query to that endpoint? what if finding a media endpoint was done with the same link-based discovery as the "main" micropub endpoint?
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[schmarty] my reasoning: looking at this post about setting up a jekyll site w/ voxpelli's webpage-micropub-to-github https://medium.com/@bmann/microblog-jekyll-micropub-and-indieweb-4fb38fa7e826
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[schmarty] a media endpoint can be set up as a totally different service, but clients won't find it unless your "main" micropub endpoint correctly answers a query about it.
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[schmarty] link-based discovery would mean one less thing that a micropub server without built-in media support has to do. and one less thing that a user would have to configure.
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aaronpk Interesting
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aaronpk I guess I was expecting it to always be part of the Micropub endpoint code but that isn't as modular as using link rels...
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GWG Which rel would you use?
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[Rose] I have already seen use cases where people want to upload pictures but not text, this could make creating your own photo/file storage service easier and separate from micropub posts entirely
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aaronpk Micropub can always accept a photo with no text. It's still useful to think of photos as an h-entry since they get other properties like a published date or tags that way too
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GWG The Indigenous for Android app supports uploading to a media endpoint and copying the URL to the clipboard
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[schmarty] there are lots of uses for a media endpoint that are tangentially-related to creating posts on your website
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GWG Yes
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GWG Agreed
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[schmarty] GWG: to answer your earlier questions, i'd propose something like rel="micropub_media_endpoint" to match the other common ones.
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GWG Okay
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[schmarty] err, singular question.
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[schmarty] to the wiki!
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Zegnat Re: what [Rose] was saying, didn’t the archiving browser extension made at the previous Berlin IWC use *just* a media-endpoint inspired uploading mechanism? They might have been helped with being able to just upload as well
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Zegnat doesn’t recall off-hand who worked on that ... treora probably
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GWG When someone person tags you, how do you display it?
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Zegnat I think jgmac1106 was catching all generic mentions of his domain on his about page? As reactions/interactions with “him” rather than with a page/post
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sknebel I'd probably not publicly list it
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GWG It's something we need to improve
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GWG We didn't want to discard them
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GWG But not sure what to do with them. And mentions are different than tags.
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Zegnat I think mentions and/or tags of you the person, of your homepage, are much more a thing for notifications than for other display
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GWG Zegnat, exactly, so where do I put/send them?
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Zegnat Are there any WP plugins that do notifications for things, GWG? Any flow that can be copied there?
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Zegnat I know some people here have started to use a channel in their micropub for notifications, but I am not sure if depending on micropub for mention notifications is logical
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sknebel I guess a user could make their mentions page private?
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GWG I have to think about it
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sknebel and probably some want it to be public, so the display question still applies, both for private and public use
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sknebel guess it makes sense to give priority to tags
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[eddie] Yeah, I think having a page that the user can make either public or private makes sense and I think the ability to optionally provide a Micropub endpoint to forward to is good
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[eddie] That way someone who only wants notifications could leave the page private and set up Micropub forwarding
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[eddie] or someone could just make the page public
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sknebel the page already has a feed, e-mail notifications, ... too
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sknebel I'm not convinced just because aperture uses Micropub here micropub has to be added everywhere
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GWG I like the idea of custom channels in a server thou8
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GWG though
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sknebel sure, but that channel could also just follow a (private) feed in theory
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[schmarty] aaronpk: added my proposal to https://indieweb.org/micropub_media_endpoint#Discovery_via_link_rel
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[schmarty] (and added a rel="micropub_endpoint" to my own site so i am at least publishing it)
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[schmarty] how do i get you excited about adding it to ownyourgram, quill, ... ? :}
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sknebel how do you excite micropub server implementers to allow people to configure an external media endpoint? :) :P
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sknebel apologizes for snark
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[schmarty] sknebel: that is the issue that most folks who use others' micropub server implementations face!
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sknebel is it? people have rejected requests for that?
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sknebel (maybe rather: is it more than for clients?)
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[schmarty] my thinking on this was triggered by boris mann's post, linked above
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[schmarty] boris set up webpage-micropub-to-github, but is tripped up on using clients that require a media endpoint and not knowing how to configure a media endpoint.
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[schmarty] quite possibly that is because he doesn't know of any standalone media endpoints and i am getting ahead of myself, haha.
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[Rose] I can see many advantages in being able to define them seperately.
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GWG Why not just Micropub_Media?
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Zegnat Does it even need to have micropub in the name? Surely, the media endpoint itself is just a URL that accepts POST requests authorised with an authorization header, nothing to do with micropub perse?
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Zegnat Although, for branding, I can see why keeping micropub in there is nice ;)
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[schmarty] gwg: micropub_media is what I proposed on the wiki
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[schmarty] Zegnat: presumably the media endpoint is following the media endpoint portions defined in the micropub spec, so keeping micropub in the name makes sense to me ;)
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GWG I just read in here, sorry
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GWG I would like to develop more query vocabulary for media endpoints then
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GWG Although haven't done q=last
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Zegnat You mean sending a query to the media endpoint rather than the micropub endpoint? What would you want to ask the media endpoint?
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[schmarty] Zegnat: I’d ask for file metadata, alternate formats, and URLs to resized images
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Zegnat So you would use the URL you got back from the initial upload to ask for whatever the server knows about it? That makes sense to me
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[schmarty] GregV’s sweetroll media uploader returns a JSON body which could also be returned by a query (looking at /media_endpoint#Brainstorming )
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[kevinmarks] This is a good question https://queer.party/@fluffy/100815230870641605
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Loqi [fluffy] @KevinMarks with WebMention discovery do you know of any proposals around filtering links based on rel attributes? Like it seems like nofollow is an obvious one to exclude, as well as navigation ones, but all the implementations I find just do everyt...
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aaronpk what does webmention discovery have to do with that?
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aaronpk are they talking about considering which links to send webmentions _to_?
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[kevinmarks] Yes
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aaronpk (which is not webmention discovery)
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aaronpk it's also entirely up to the sender
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[kevinmarks] Well, it's which urls to run discovery on.
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aaronpk no, webmention discovery refers to a particular thing
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aaronpk better to not conflate the terms
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[kevinmarks] This follows on from http://publ.beesbuzz.biz/blog/113-Some-thoughts-on-WebMention
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aaronpk yes, that's a fine argument for having an external tool handle sending webmentions
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aaronpk but let's please not call that webmention discovery
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[kevinmarks] Fair. Have we documented approaches to which urls to send webmentions to?
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aaronpk have you looked?
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aaronpk https://indieweb.org/Webmention-faq#Which_links_should_receive_webmentions
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[kevinmarks] Excellent.
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aaronpk looks like it could use some more notes on what people are doing
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[kevinmarks] Yes, would be good to add to that. Indiewebify.me is quite eager iirc.
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aaronpk changed the header, feel free to add indiewebify if you know what it does https://indieweb.org/Webmention-faq#Which_links_should_webmentions_be_sent_to
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GWG [schmarty], Zegnat, I currently return WordPress metadata when uploaded, I'd like to query and get it
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Zegnat [kevinmarks], if you want to get onto the much more abstract discussion, there is also: https://github.com/w3c/webmention/issues/91
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Loqi [Zegnat] #91 “other similar links” is a vague description for what constitutes getting mentioned in HTML
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aaronpk I don't really think it's the job of the spec to say what you should send links to, but that is helpful information for a guide
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Zegnat I agree, I mostly just took issue with the phrasing in the spec ;) And I found the dive down the rabbit hole interesting too, to discover what HTML-the-spec considers links/URLs
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Zegnat Personally I don’t really see a reason to *not* send a webmention ... unless it is from a private URL
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aaronpk yeah it's subtle, because if your post is public, then technically anyone can send the webmention on your behalf anyway, or the receiver could even be running a refback-to-webmention thing that triggers it
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aaronpk but there are plenty of reasons to not want to notify a URL/person that they were mentioned in the first place. I would just argue that maybe that shouldn't have been a public post to begin with.
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[kevinmarks] There is also the snitch tagging problem, though that is a bit more subtle
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aaronpk that's what i'm talking about
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aaronpk if it's a public post then anyone can send a webmention for it, or if someone clicks through the link it'll show up in the referrer logs plus the receiver might be converting referrer logs to webmentions so it'll end up sending a webmention anyway
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GWG Anyone has an opinion on this? https://github.com/indieweb/wordpress-indieweb/issues/121
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Loqi [dshanske] #121 Establish Criteria for Adding Custom Fields to User Profile
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GWG I'm trying to figure out where the Indieweb line is
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aaronpk what about if the user could choose the label?
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aaronpk that way you can avoid the issue
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sknebel hm, does HTTP have any way of indicating "here's a valid file, but you can authenticate and get a different one"? I only see that for 401, and that doesn't fit since it is an error code
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aaronpk interesting
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aaronpk the response body of a 401 could contain the public file
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aaronpk what's the use case?
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GWG aaronpk: That might work. But so many plugins store user profile data, it gets confusing.
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GWG But, there's an idea
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aaronpk hm I guess I don't understand the wordpress-specific parts of this then
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sknebel aaronpk: e.g. feeds that might have more posts if you authenticate. I'd worry clients (e.g. readers) would treat a 401 as an error (it *is* an error code) and ignore the contents
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aaronpk ah yeah
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sknebel I guess just adding a WWW-Authenticate: Bearer to a 200 would be unlikely to break anything
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aaronpk I was about to say, that sounds like what www-authenticate is for
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Zegnat sknebel, how about doing 200 OK but provide a Vary: Authorization header?
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Zegnat (I think that is how Vary works...)
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sknebel Vary is AFAIK for caches only
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Zegnat Possibly. It is one of those headers I am only vaguely aware of
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jacky just gotta test it out ;)
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Zegnat Yeah, MDN only speaks about caching. Though it also says: “It is used by the server to indicate which headers it used when selecting a representation of a resource in a content negotiation algorithm.”
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Zegnat Which seems right if you are offering separate things depending on authorization header ...
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[tantek] Separate media endpoint is interesting I could see wanting to run my own micropub endpoint but delegate media uploads to a service
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jacky yeah like maybe even a wrapper around webdav (for those using things like nextcloud or the like)
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@vincentlistens ↩️ The standards are a collection of technologies. These should get you started :-) https://www.w3.org/TR/micropub/ https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn/ https://www.w3.org/TR/indieauth/ (twitter.com/_/status/1046490605684224000)
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[jgmac1106] I am always trying to keep things threaded, my replies and replies from others threaded on one post, is there a way to say something like <link href="http://example.com/note123" class="uid-in-reply-to"><a href="http://example.com/note123" class="u-in-reply-to-1">...<a href="http://example.com/note123" class="u-in-reply-to-5">?
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[jgmac1106] Or should webmentions just work this way naturally without having to think about threading. It's close most of the time
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snarfed [jgmac1106]: are you asking how to mark up your own reply? or other people's replies to your original post?
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[jgmac1106] well I was thinking maybe even after the fact for archiving features or going back and making webmentions go in the order I want manually
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KartikPrabhu [jgmac1106]: you can sort the replies by their published dates
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KartikPrabhu that should "in principle" give you good threading
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[jgmac1106] I found a page on /series and a page on /reply-chain if its just twitter and bridgy its great, but what if it's across networks, need more then published dates
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snarfed a repliy can have u-in-reply-to another reply, not just to an original post
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snarfed that's how bridgy does threading, for twitter and other silos. not at all silo specific, works with pure indie replies too
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[jgmac1106] just a random thought, when I broke a thread and thought..how can I put humpy dumpty back together again...ohh okay that perfect
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[jgmac1106] I can fix that
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snarfed (bridgy threaded replies usually have at least three in-reply-tos: silo post, original post, and parent silo reply)
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[jgmac1106] pure indie web replies work best of course
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@jgmac1106 @iamjessklein launched Tiara on right quick and she is pulling in her instagram feed already. Lets deal? I build blogging platform in exchange for help getting badge builder online with @Downes and I. Webmention badges make perfect sense for mobile… http://jgregorymcverry.com/7559-2/ (twitter.com/_/status/1046548864436772864)