#dev 2018-12-12

2018-12-12 UTC
snarfed, [eddie], KartikPrabhu, iasai, [tantek], tbbrown, petermolnar and jjuran joined the channel
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[eddie] What is a listen?
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Loqi A scrobble (AKA a listen) is a passive type of post used to publish a song (music or audio track, including concert recordings or DJ sets) or podcast that you have listened to https://indieweb.org/listen
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[eddie] listen << https://www.npr.org/sections/npr-extra/2018/12/11/675250553/remote-audio-data-is-here
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Loqi ok, I added "https://www.npr.org/sections/npr-extra/2018/12/11/675250553/remote-audio-data-is-here" to the "See Also" section of /scrobble https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=54615&oldid=54471
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[eddie] listen << https://werd.io/2018/with-rad-podcasters-can-finally-learn-whos-listening
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Loqi ok, I added "https://werd.io/2018/with-rad-podcasters-can-finally-learn-whos-listening" to the "See Also" section of /scrobble https://indieweb.org/wiki/index.php?diff=54616&oldid=54615
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[eddie] That’s pretty awesome
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@kisik21 I'm gonna be debugging webmentions to Twitter, things are gonna get noisy. (https://fireburn.ru/note/1544606393) (twitter.com/_/status/1072783121983176704)
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swentel hmm I remember some discussion regarding feed parsing lately
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Loqi swentel: jacky left you a message 12 hours, 32 minutes ago: yeah, that's my instance - lemme see what's going on on my side
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GWG I'm often discussing it
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swentel I'm debugging https://baptiste.gelez.xyz/local vs https://baptiste.gelez.xyz/@/0x1C3B00DA - first one is parsed fine by xray, second one not
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swentel it's probably something really subtle and simple
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swentel (note, there is a problem with the u-url on the articles, but that's in both sources)
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aaronpk What are you expecting to see?
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aaronpk XRay finds the h-card of the second link
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swentel a list of items
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swentel http://xray.p3k.io/parse?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbaptiste.gelez.xyz%2Flocal&pretty=true is fine for instance
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swentel but http://xray.p3k.io/parse?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbaptiste.gelez.xyz%2F%40%2F0x1C3B00DA&pretty=true not
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swentel and I'm expecting to see the items of that user
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aaronpk Well for starters if the page is both a list of items and also an h-card you have to tell XRay to look for the feed explicitly
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aaronpk otherwise both answers are correct so it can't know which you are looking for
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swentel yeah but expect=feed doesn't help :)
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aaronpk that was my next sentence
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aaronpk I don't know why
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swentel and, here's the interesting part
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aaronpk Oh look
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aaronpk activity+json
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swentel if you copy/paste the source
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swentel and not enter a url in xray
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aaronpk does that url do content negotiation?
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swentel it finds them
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GWG By the way, it works on my parser
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aaronpk Yeah XRay is saying it found activitystreams data at the url so it's not even parsing the html
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sknebel the Plume mf2 is quite good
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sknebel I'm gonna send them some minor fixes and feedback
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swentel Ok I have an issue open in the queue
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swentel feel free to add it there :)
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sknebel isn't that the xray thing above?
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sknebel that doesn't seem like a problem on their end?
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sknebel (in general, if looking at mf2 don't use xray, use a microformats parser first IMHO, to avoid such confusion)
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swentel well, xray uses mf2 underneath no ?
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swentel iirc
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swentel the /mf2 library
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sknebel yes, but it does all kinds of other stuff too
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sknebel e.g. the activitypub detection as discussed above
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sknebel whereas the mf2 parsers only parse mf and nothing else
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swentel ok mmm
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sknebel e.g. https://baptiste.gelez.xyz/@/0x1C3B00DA has basically correct mf2
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swentel I'll have to look my microsub server in drupal then
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swentel yeah, the mf2 looks fine indeed
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sknebel and "xray didn't see your mf2" isn't really a bug for them to fix
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sknebel :D
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swentel yeah I see the confusion there
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swentel but since it parsed /local fine
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swentel I assumed something subtle was missing
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swentel since they only added it recently
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sknebel one thing that's interesting about their pages is that a plume instance really is a "reader" for other instances too, which the mf2 doesn't reflect right now
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sknebel from what I can tell, e.g. mastodon doesn't have URLs for posts from other instances, they only show them as comments/boost content/..., whereas Plume does.
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sknebel so the question is, how should the markup reflect that - should they always be h-cites? h-entries with u-url u-uid pointing to the original=
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sknebel what is planet?
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Loqi A planet, in the context of the indieweb, and blogs/feeds for even longer, is a site that aggregates feeds/updates from a variety of sources, typically focused on a particular topic or community https://indieweb.org/planet
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sknebel hm, unclear. opinions?
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sknebel (ping Zegnat :D)
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Zegnat A wild Zegnat appears
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Zegnat Plume simply takes a post from wharever and then reproduces it at a new URL within its own instance?
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Zegnat If it isn’t done through some specific action that can be attributed to a user it doesn’t sound like a quote or repost or anything like that.
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Zegnat Almost sounds like it is a syndicated copy, with the one caveat that the original author may or may not have initialised the syndication
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sknebel yes, that's more or less what it is
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Zegnat You could post the h-entry and then set the u-url as rel="canonical" (pointing away from the Plume copy)
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Zegnat per https://indieweb.org/original_post_link
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sknebel aaronpk: does Aperture take the u-url or u-uid from an h-feed to follow that instead?
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Zegnat s/You could post/Plume could republish/
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Zegnat Aperture doesn’t do per-item parsing at all. Only reads the feed. IIRC
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sknebel " from an h-feed "
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Zegnat I thought you meant “follow” as in “go read the article’s URL”
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Zegnat My mistake
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sknebel ah, no, I meant as the feed location
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Zegnat Either way, my opinion would be to treat them as syndicated copies. Feels like that’s what they are in the federated context.
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[kevinmarks] There are urls for posts from other instances in the h-cite http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fxoxo.zone%2F%40KevinMarks%2F101190617650859637&html=&pretty=on
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Loqi [Kevin Marks] @jalcine @TheGibson you could recover your posts from a dead instance via the caches in other ones, and if the rel=me model is observed you can recover migration intent too. You could use Internet archive for mastodon, if not pleroma.
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sknebel but there isn't a url "xoxo.zone/..." for a post on another instance
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sknebel of course they link to them
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swentel damn, cleaning up items in a microsub server can be tricky if you're parsing feeds which have 'pinned' items like in mastodon
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swentel rabbit holes ahead :)
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sknebel oh, interesting
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sknebel I feel like pinned items shouldn't be in the feed?
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sknebel (or rather, only where they were originally posted)
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swentel well, I'm following mastodon h-feeds
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swentel I haven't actually checked if pinned items are visible in the atom feeds
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swentel I suspect not
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swentel but it's a funny problem :)
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sknebel yeah, but also something we might be able to fix at the source
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[jgmac1106] Anyone into fedwiki? I have had fedwiki.me forever but stopped maintaining server last year. Domain expires tomorrow. Not going to renew
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aaronpk You could offer the domain to ward
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swentel hah, parsing that plume page works fine in my drupal microsub server since I fetch the content myself and pass on the body to the xray parser ;)
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sknebel makes sense I guess
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sknebel oh, they reopened the issue
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swentel yeah, don't know why exactly
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sknebel probably because they clicked your links and saw it didn'T work?
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sknebel and didn't fully understand what xray does
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swentel maybe yes
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swentel ironically the server is down now
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swentel was going to test with http://pin13.net/mf2/
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sknebel yeah, it does that
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swentel and give them that link
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swentel or is there a better online parser ?
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sknebel php.microformats.io runs the same stuff but has "more official" URL maybe :D
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sknebel (also easy to jump to the other parsers there)
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sknebel but pin13 is fine
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swentel hehe
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aaronpk Wait what server is down? pin13?
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sknebel no
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sknebel the plume testing instance
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aaronpk Oh *whew*
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Aperture is the microsub server, and then you check it out through Moncole, web/desktop or Indigenous iOS/Android. These have a micropub client meaning you can reply, like, repost, etc with content from your reader. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/DZA2t) (twitter.com/_/status/1072918309580853248)
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sknebel [tantek]: do you have thoughts on how Plume should mark up feeds/posts that are federated from another instance with microformats? Unlike e.g. Mastodon, they have full feeds for blogs and authors and pages for posts from other instances. I'm giving them feedback on their mf2 anyways and am wondering if there is a specific pattern I should recommend
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snarfed sknebel: it could arguably be the exact same mf2 as on the original instance, right?
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jgmac1106_ uhh ohhh guess I need to figure out how webmentions work: https://mastodon.social/@Downes/101229119451344205 going to tell him it is just a u-reply-of for now
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Loqi [Downes 🍁] @jgmac1106 I have a system set up to award badges. I want to set it up so that when a badge is awarded for a web page, it sends a webMention to that page, referring back to the page actually awarding the badge. What coding should the badge page conta...
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snarfed notably, with h-entry u-url and author u-url pointing to the canonical permalink and author profile on the original instance
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sknebel snarfed: yeah, that sounds reasonable. h-cite also makes some sense, but maybe not if stands alone on the page?
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sknebel just want to make sure I don't suggest X and then a few weeks later someone else says "no, Y is better" :D
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snarfed right. if it's just re-rending at an alternate url, nothing is citing it
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snarfed heh, true. iteration is inevitable, but yeah, we can try to agree
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snarfed this is basically what bridgy does when it renders silo posts. it just renders as normal, with u-urls pointing to the silo posts, profiles, etc
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sknebel ohh, right, bridgy is quite similar in that way
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sknebel alexmingoia: are you talking about "just the url" of the thing that's replied to/bookmarked/... ,or just a url to a post on their page where those properties are filled?
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sknebel vincentp.me has a bunch of bad microformats, so maybe don't use that as an example to support for now
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sknebel e.g. the checkin of the top of the feed - the u-checkin isn't in a good place and so it has the post text as the url
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alexmingoia Well yeah, a lot of homepage feeds are abridged like that.
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alexmingoia With the full content on the actual post page.
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alexmingoia Not a big deal with stuff like full articles, but things like checkins, likes, bookmarks that cite content it is.
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alexmingoia For now I'm going to extend my microsub implementation to crawl every post for every feed, to get all the extra information.
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sknebel it'd be interesting to document examples of feeds that are problematic, it's an interesting question what good rules are
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alexmingoia Now that I think about it... the problem is not so much content split across feeds or pages, but the lack of a semantic machine-readable way to identify *where* all the canonical content is.
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jgmac1106_ shouldn’t the abridged version of any feed be what the user puts in p-summary? and then include the u-url?
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alexmingoia Especially now that most sites have 3-5+ rel="alternate" links
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alexmingoia jgmac1106_: Yeah, for articles that works. But for checkins not including the location makes the post practically useless.
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sknebel sure, but it'd be helpful to know that there's value in parsing the permalink of the post itself
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sknebel although I'd argue that key properties should probably in the feed too
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alexmingoia Yeah. Right now there's no way to know which feed has everything, and if each post has more at the permalink.
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jgmac1106_ for check-in in my mind it would be everythign but the e-content on abridged
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jgmac1106_ that would give you venue and location…if there was a u-featured img in e-content may consider displaying that…again this is all in my mid without knowing how things work
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sknebel so again, examples would be helpful to see if there's obvious problems or easy-to-derive rules.
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alexmingoia Well now we're talking about two different problems. 1) people not putting correct markup and 2) no way to identify where all content is or if there is more content
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alexmingoia 2 doesn't have a solution that I know of
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sknebel for finding fuller versions of a feed there's the suggestion of https://indieweb.org/h-feed#partial_feeds
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sknebel summary as jgmac1106 suggested is possibly also helpful
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sknebel but without examples I can't tell you if people actually do that or not
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GWG Aligning my location api with the atlas api for consistency
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alexmingoia I think the best route would be to encourage single JF2feeds that include all content.
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alexmingoia Right now it's much easier to follow someone who published activitypub because it's a single canoncial feed of everything.
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GWG aaronpk, what does the return from atlas for weather look like?
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[kevinmarks] looking at the mastodon atom feeds as well as their mf2 ones, I updated unmung to create better h-feeds
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[kevinmarks] Atom doesn't have an author photo property, so they use link rel="avatar"
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[jgmac1106] so [eddie] [tantek] how could a person tag work if you use an h-card to someone, would you remove the u-url to their homepage instead link to a page on your site with a p-category and their name as a tag? Seems it would need to be a dynamic page querying some kind of relational database...or you would have to mantain a page for each person in your network?
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[jgmac1106] Better to have this done in whatever social reader you pay for and subscribe to rather than trying to host on your own?
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[tantek] [jgmac1106] uh, sounds more complex than necessary? Did you look at existing person-tag examples that use a nested h-card?
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[eddie] I’m actually working on building one on my site and it does use a relational database cache
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[eddie] jgmac1106
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[jgmac1106] figured it had to, [tantek] eddie wanted a little bit more than just a person-tag
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[eddie] I am not sure how I will link to it, because as you said, jgmac1106, the link for the person tag still needs to link to their url
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[jgmac1106] I am also just using big words I here engineers and developers use
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[jgmac1106] yeah my thinking was just add the u-url on top of the page you would link to, hear*
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[jgmac1106] or....display a sprite that links to the page and then a normal h-card link
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[eddie] Yeah, I think something like that, some extra text, an icon, something that links to the interactions page and just doesn’t have any mf2
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[tantek] I still don't understand what use-case y'all are talking about
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[eddie] tantek on my posts I add a link “with Ashley” and Ashley is an h-card that links to her homepage
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[tantek] on what posts?
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[eddie] If I want people to be able to click through to an interaction page from that same spot rather than going to her homepage, I have to find a way to add a link to the interaction page that doesn’t mess up the h-Card
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[eddie] Any person-tag posts
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[eddie] I’ll link to one
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[jgmac1106] kind of like what [sebsel] demoed with likes two degrees removed, but with other post types as well..but only going one degree...how do you interact with X in Y ways, being able to sort your relationship with X in Y ways, and displaying those interactions
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[tantek] eddie do you mean posts with a person-tag or person-tag-of posts?
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[tantek] (they are quite different)
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[eddie] Posts with a person tag
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[eddie] So I realized I actually broke my person tag posts haha but here one is: https://eddiehinkle.com/2018/11/30/3/checkin/
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Loqi [Eddie Hinkle] Checked in at Starbucks with Ash and Luke. https://api.mapbox.com/styles/v1/mapbox/streets-v9/static/pin-m+24b1f3(-77.34969040801467,39.325787553009306)/-77.34969040801467,39.325787553009306,13,0,60/1280x350@2x?access_token=pk.eyJ1IjoiZWRkaWVoaW5rbGUiLCJhIjoiY2oxa3o1aXdiMDAwNDMzbjFjNGQ0ejl1eSJ9.WQZ6i6b-TYYe_96IQ6iXdg&attribution=false&logo=false
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[eddie] Where it says with Ash and Luke are both supposed to be person tags and link to their websites
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[eddie] I accidentally broke it though so it doesn’t link correctly right now
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[eddie] Ahh I see what confused you, tantek. When I said person tag posts it was meant as shorthand for “posts with a person tag”
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[eddie] As opposed to person-tag-of posts which as you said, are a totally different thing
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GWG Evening
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[eddie] 👋 GWG
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GWG Hi, Eddie. What are you up to m
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[eddie] playing around with the idea of an “interactions” page. (The stuff just above in the logs)
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[eddie] So I can essentially hop on a page to see what me and someone else has talked about or where we’ve been, etc
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[eddie] What about you?
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tantek eddie TBH interactions sounds both accurate and also too abstract. mixed feelings
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[jgmac1106] It is a "You and Me" page
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[tantek] "with" page
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[jgmac1106] with page makes sense
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[tantek] eddie - I use <span class="u-category h-card"> for my person-tags
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[tantek] just realized the two overlap but are distinct. "with" page and "photos of" page
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[eddie] Hmm interesting, “with page” is an interesting name.
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[jgmac1106] Ashley With Eddie
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[jgmac1106] sitting in a tree....
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[tantek] does a with page imply the author or not?
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[tantek] does a multiple "with" page make sense?
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[jgmac1106] Ashley with Eddie and Tantek
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[eddie] Multiple with page makes sense to me
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[jgmac1106] ...not in a tree
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[tantek] do people have pages for showing a stream of posts all with a set of particular tags
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[jgmac1106] only those customized in rss readers
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[eddie] I don’t think the page concept implies the author
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[tantek] depends on the URL design
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[eddie] But the name “with” MIGHT imply author which could be tricky
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[tantek] tantek.com / with / domain.example.com
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[eddie] Currently I have single tag pages and I have channels which can be set internally to use a set of tags
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[eddie] But I don’t have the ability to add multiple tags within a url path
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[tantek] could be particularly interesting for multiple people
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[eddie] I wonder if that could work eddiehinkle.com / with / tantek.com / aaronparecki.com /
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[tantek] commas maybe?
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[eddie] Commas could work as well
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[tantek] you may want to use further / for pagination
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[eddie] True
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[tantek] wonders if this works for aaronpk's tag pages
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[eddie] I don’t think so
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[eddie] I tried and it seems to think the , belongs within the tag
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[eddie] https://aaronparecki.com/tag/video,health
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Loqi Aaron Parecki
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[tantek] no tagging system I know of includes "," in the tagname
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[tantek] er, maybe github labels?
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[eddie] I don’t think he has any with it. I think he just didn’t add a restriction to his router
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[eddie] If you just put a wildcard for the path after /tag, you end up with what that page says
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[eddie] That’s how my tag router works right now
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[tantek] I like to filter out unknown chars instead
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[eddie] Makes sense
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[jgmac1106] wordpress and Known use commas
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[tantek] inside tags?!?
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[jgmac1106] I can sort any view by any combination of post types, and tags
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[jgmac1106] but not people...but they aren't tagged
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[jgmac1106] https://jgregorymcverry.com/kind/photo,note/
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[jgmac1106] https://jgregorymcverry.com/kind/photo,note/?s=Tantek
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[tantek] ah, commas as delimiters, excellent!
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[tantek] !tell aaronpk easy project for you, multitag pages, comma delimited e.g. https://aaronparecki.com/tag/video,health
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Aaron Parecki
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tantek what is a multitag
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "multitag" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "multitag is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[jgmac1106] all the credit goes to @gwg, entire reason he uses the taxonomies and archive pages in post-kinds rather than WordPress post types
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[eddie] Nice, that’s great to see the pattern having implementations
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[eddie] The question is that an AND or an OR?
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[eddie] I’m guess tags are an OR
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[eddie] but I think with pages should be an AND
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[eddie] Boolean logic
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GWG It is an or
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GWG I suppose that I could try to do an AND
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[eddie] Yep, which makes sense for post kinda and regular tags
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GWG It was the default
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[eddie] I think or makes sense
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GWG I someday will do something with person tag and mention issues
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GWG I have some ideas
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[eddie] I think the issue is the with page. I don’t think you want this person OR this person
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[eddie] Commas still probably work but it’s an interesting difference
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[jgmac1106] https://jgregorymcverry.com/kind/article,note/?s=Tantek+greg
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[jgmac1106] for wordpress you can add elasticpress and find all the things
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[jgmac1106] https://www.elasticpress.io
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[jgmac1106] but wp_query by itself uper powerful https://developer.wordpress.org/reference/classes/wp_query/
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[kevinmarks] + is tricky in urls
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