#dev 2018-12-13

2018-12-13 UTC
snarfed, KartikPrabhu, [jgmac1106], [asuh] and [tantek] joined the channel
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GWG I just borrowed something from aaronpk that I liked for my code.
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GWG Hi, Zegnat
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[eddie] What is multitags?
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[eddie] What is multitag?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "multitags" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "multitags is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "multitag" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "multitag is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[eddie] !tell tantek I have officially added multitag support to my site: https://eddiehinkle.com/tag/fiona,jasmine,cat,cats/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[tantek] Eddie, that's an "and" right?
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Loqi [tantek]: [eddie] left you a message 2 minutes ago: I have officially added multitag support to my site: https://eddiehinkle.com/tag/fiona,jasmine,cat,cats/
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[eddie] Yep
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[eddie] that's correct
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[eddie] Also got my person tags fixed 🙌
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kisik21 My IndieAuth endpoint is totally stateless, yay! And codes even expire!
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Loqi 😃
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[eddie] kisik21++
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Loqi kisik21 has 6 karma in this channel over the last year (18 in all channels)
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[eddie] congrats!
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kisik21 I just need to make a token endpoint
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kisik21 but it would be stateful
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kisik21 since my admin interface should have token revocation feature
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[tantek] eddie++ nicely done!
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Loqi eddie has 47 karma in this channel over the last year (83 in all channels)
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[tantek] eddie are you sure you're treating it as an "and"? it looks like e.g. https://eddiehinkle.com/tag/tech,indieweb is showing posts with just "tech" tag but no "indieweb" tag
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[tantek] I mean in addition to posts with both
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kisik21 I thought of a clever idea of encoding data as plain text and then passing a hash with it. If the data is tampered with, I easily notice. And nobody can pass me another hash without knowing a little secret!
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kisik21 The secret is stored in the config file and closely guarded.
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[eddie] Oh oops, it’s obviously too late, it’s set up as an or
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[eddie] Which I think is how I want it
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[eddie] 🤔 I’ll have to think more about if that should be an AND or an OR
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[eddie] I can see the usefulness of both
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[tantek] I think refinement (ands) is a more common case than unions (or), simply because you can "just" open multiple tabs to look at such unions, but a refinement can only work with explicit support
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kisik21 gRegorLove: what's up with your webmentions? You don't seem to be advertising an endpoint (but I have passed your challenge of mentioning you with getting your h-card!)
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kisik21 But now I can pass the mentioning challenge, yay! Now maybe private posts?
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Loqi :D
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kisik21 No, I'll need logging in for that
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gRegorLove There's an HTTP Link header for it. I'll have to check on why no <link> element currently; don't recall if I removed that for some reason.
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kisik21 gRegorLove: you should get one since my implementation currently doesn't look at link headers (but it should probably!)
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kisik21 but your name is now on my page because your h-card is now fetchable in my code!
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[kevinmarks] Refinement versus unions varies depending on the commonness of each term. If the intersection is empty, then the union is more useful. If one is super common, then the other is a good refinement.
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[kevinmarks] The other thing that is handy is looking at which tags co-occur. That can be useful for further expansion if they found a rarer term with a more common one attached.
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Zegnat If you want to go really fancy you could do both. Use comma for or, and slash for and. E.g. /tag/tech,indieweb lists all posts that have either tech or indieweb tags. If I want to refine that to only indieweb and tech posts that mention PHP I make it /tag/tech,indieweb/php
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Zegnat Though I am not 100% sure what the usecase is :P
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[jgmac1106] Yeah look at the WP query I sent for ideas.... Can build the craziest search parameters into a url string
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[jgmac1106] tag/tech+indieweb to me says has to have both
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Zegnat I would concur with [kevinmarks] and try to stay away from + signs in URLs
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[kevinmarks] historical anecdote: Technorati tags allowed spaces. We also fetched tags results from delicious to show on our tag info page
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[kevinmarks] however, the spaces were encoded to + in URLs (as was the fashion at the time)
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[kevinmarks] delicious didn't allow spaces, and treated + in a tag url as an AND query
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[kevinmarks] we massively loaded their database by doing this and Joshua got very cross with me.
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[kevinmarks] So Technorati mapped the space in tags to an underscore for delicious
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Zegnat supports spaces in tags
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[kevinmarks] how about /tag/tech∪indieweb∩php in URLs?
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Zegnat [kevinmarks], I personally love that! Would I push that as some sort of standard? Probably not.
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[kevinmarks] or /tag/tech∨indieweb∧php
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[kevinmarks] though tags are more like sets the booleans
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Zegnat My tags are completely free text, so a lot of URL things can get annoying.
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Zegnat "Ben & Jerry's" is a valid tag in my blog engine. URL encoding mess.
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Zegnat thankfully doesn’t have tag pages
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[kevinmarks] you could use U+FE60 ﹠instead
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[kevinmarks] Ben ﹠Jerry's
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[kevinmarks] or Ben ＆Jerry's (U+FF06)
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[kevinmarks] there's always a unicode alternative
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[kevinmarks] ﹤＜instead of <
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[kevinmarks] you can go ornate with ❛❜❝❞❮❯
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[kevinmarks] what is ⅋ for?
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Zegnat I could. But sounds like a hassle. Both while writing and when searching
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jgmac1106 or pick a different ice cream brand
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Zegnat lol jgmac1106
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jeremycherfas !tell GWG there was an interesting discussion on location at IWC Nuremberg, and the use of, I think, a Google system that allows you to specify the area of interest from very large to very small. Maybe zegnat can remember it.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Jeremycherfas, I was lurking during that time
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Loqi GWG: jeremycherfas left you a message 3 minutes ago: there was an interesting discussion on location at IWC Nuremberg, and the use of, I think, a Google system that allows you to specify the area of interest from very large to very small. Maybe zegnat can remember it.
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GWG But my dreams probably outreach what I actually will build
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jeremycherfas So you were. Thanks for jogging my memory.
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GWG I was half asleep though
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@kisik21 @eddiehinkle.com I think we have some issues with http://brid.gy/webmention.io (not sure where's the problem) catching your syndicated stuff, your actions are doubled up! It feels weird. (twitter.com/_/status/1073215503278182400)
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@kisik21 @eddiehinkle.com I think we have some issues with http://brid.gy/webmention.io (not sure where's the problem) catching your syndicated stuff, your actions are doubled up! It feels weird. (twitter.com/_/status/1073215503278182400)
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kisik21 !tell [eddie] your comments are doubled up because something's wron with your twitter syndication process. Same is on aaronpk's website, where my comments are shown with the birdsite syndication link below. Maybe webmention.io is to blame?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[schmarty] kisik21: many folks that show webmentions don't have any kind of de-duplication, so a response from your site and a response from you on Twitter are treated as two separate responses
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[schmarty] (Or I could be misreading what you're describing)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Couldn't add webmentions, not without help, but could build reply channels in social reader feeds. Want to figure out webmention badges. Credentialing at the DNS is the most secure NOW option, so much badge talk about the future. We can webmention badge… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/12/13/couldnt-add-webmentions-not-without-help-but (twitter.com/_/status/1073227773081251842)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Ghost super cool. Just doesn't play with #IndieWeb toys I like, teaching with post types, social readers and webmentions is something blogging teachers been missing last ten years. @grantcodes and @schmarty play a lot I will break em down and… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/12/13/_gw-ghost-super-cool-just-doesnt-play (twitter.com/_/status/1073235025179619329)
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[eddie] Zegnat interesting url thoughts. I had brought up /tech/php but tantek was concerned about potential pagination issues
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[eddie] I would love for us to have a standard expectation for both AND tags and OR tags
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[eddie] kisik21 If I read that right, my and aaronpk's comments show up twice on your website? It's probably because I syndicate all my content to twitter so you get both my indieweb webmention and the twitter syndication response
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[eddie] You should be able to de-duplicate the responses by checking for the source url
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[eddie] and only display one copy of the same source url response
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Loqi agreed.
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[eddie] thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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[jgmac1106] ...Why Cant AND or OR work? too many people use them in a URL?
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[eddie] I think would look really weird: eddiehinkle.com/ tag/fionaANDjasmine/ and doesn't seem particularly clear what is going on
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jeremycherfas Well, my intention to work on geodata was thwarted by an easier problem to do with image galleries. Small win.
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GWG It happens
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jeremycherfas It does. And I'm OK with that.
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GWG Too many dreams, not enough time
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GWG I was doing one of snarfed's favorite things earlier
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GWG Unit tests, which is something that I have trouble doing
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aaronpk to dedupe syndicated comments you have to check the u-syndication URLs of the post
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Loqi aaronpk: [tantek] left you a message 19 hours, 30 minutes ago: easy project for you, multitag pages, comma delimited e.g. https://aaronparecki.com/tag/video,health
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aaronpk when i get a webmention from eddiehinkle.com I also store any u-syndication URLs it claims. then when i get a mention from bridgy for a tweet, i can see that the canonical was already received from eddiehinkle.com
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[eddie] ohhhh hahaha
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[eddie] I really need to get my syndication urls working then
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Loqi nice
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aaronpk please do :)
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[tantek] 👍
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aaronpk i spent a while getting that logic to work right
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aaronpk including what happens when the webmentions come in the opposite order
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aaronpk so if i first get a bridgy webmention, then later get a webmention from the canonical URL, it moves the bridgy one to not be a comment anymore
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[eddie] Oh wow, that's brilliant
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[eddie] My biggest thing holding me back was jekyll (because of the way I had it set up) Now that I'm using my own node.js rendering engine, I should be able to open and resave a post. Essentially the one thing that's holding me back is updating a post, I have to get that internal logic built out. Once I get that then when bridgy returns the syndication url from my webmentions I can update the post with the correct urls
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[tantek] I believe I send webmentions *after* POSSEing for just this reason
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[tantek] So when someone receives a Webmention from me, and retrieved my post, it already has all the automated u-syndication links in it. (IG POSSEing & syndication links still manual and sometimes not til hours later)
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aaronpk ah yeah interesting
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[jgmac1106] so can I embed an h-feed, and then a set of h-entries for each badge recipient so I could just make a recipients section instead of one page per badge issued?
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[jgmac1106] just the h-entries?
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aaronpk i suppose so
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aaronpk not sure quite what most sites will show when they get that webmention tho
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[jgmac1106] throw it in a parser.see what happens....I cheated and manually added the image on badges page
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aaronpk it's not a parser question, it's a question of what someone's website will do with receiving a webmention from an h-feed
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aaronpk the easier version is probably to just keep the one h-entry for the badge and add more peoples' sites as in-reply-to URLs
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[jgmac1106] wish there was some word to trigger u-featured to show in webmention,....is it done on hitting publish
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[jgmac1106] could it be triggered that way?
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aaronpk i have no idea what that question means, are you talking about some wordpress thing?
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[jgmac1106] no I mean if I edited the page on the wiki and added another in-reply-to URLs would another webmention go out
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aaronpk the wiki doesn't send webmentions right now
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[jgmac1106] ...ahh it was me importing it that made it work...
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[jgmac1106] ...shhhhh
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[jgmac1106] but still neat proof of concept
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[jgmac1106] If "save changes" triggers telegram that would be cool
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aaronpk yeah it totally could
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[jgmac1106] so the webmention gets sent on the revision history page and not the main page so people do not get triggered every time an update happens
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[jgmac1106] os something...just worried about duplication
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aaronpk duplication handling is already described by webmention
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jgmac1106 cool
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jgmac1106 then telegram trigger away
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aaronpk whoa weird my instagram sessionid is super short
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aaronpk it's my user id and 14 chars
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snarfed huh that is weird
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aaronpk it works tho and granary gets my friends feed
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@rubygems jekyll-webmention_io (3.3.3): This Gem includes a suite of tools for managing webmentions in Jekyll: * Tags *… https://rubygems.org/gems/jekyll-webmention_io (twitter.com/_/status/1073317200298164225)
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aaronpk snarfed: do you know if the instagram "friends" feed on granary will include photos from hashtags i'm following?
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snarfed aaronpk: maybe? it scrapes whatever shows up on your logged in https://www.instagram.com/
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aaronpk ah cool so probably then
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[jgmac1106] so I can do single file webmention badges from the wiki now, but can't out the way no to display all the u-reply-of in the content obviously. In terms of a wiki would be better to have each badge a page and a list of recipients or some type of template:badge and use one file per badge
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Zegnat [jgmac1106], the problem with the wiki is that the editable area is all marked as the content, so you are always putting the reply-to urls within the page content.
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jgmac1106 yeah which leaves me to one page per issuance
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jgmac1106 and marking all issuances as a collection
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Zegnat not really, that would still put the link in there
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Zegnat Or are you saying you don’t mind the link being part of the badge content, just not multiple links?
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jgmac1106 I want the link the way it showed on my page would be fine…might set the badge as the h-card u-photo….to cheat
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Zegnat Rather than doing that I would file issues for photo replies
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Zegnat PRoblem with those cheats is that they stick around
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[jgmac1106] yeah...for now will leave it as the u-featured img
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[jgmac1106] Kind of makes sense for me to choose to display the img back on my badges page
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Zegnat why did you go featured and not photo?
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[jgmac1106] bc the point of the post is the img..just sounded like something I was featuring
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[jgmac1106] plus....syndicates
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Zegnat featured images are almost never “the point of the post” right?
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Zegnat What is featured?
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Loqi featured is a proposed mf2 property (typically as u-featured) for h-entry that indicates a representative image for a primarily textual post https://indieweb.org/featured
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[jgmac1106] hmm guess it isn't primarily textual...u-photo would make more sense
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Zegnat Featured images are like those nice little hand-drawn-style images on A List Apart, or the big screenfilling images behind the post title on Medium. I tend to see them more as an illustrative addition to a post, possibly representing a post among other posts. They do not tend to be actual content.
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Zegnat For badges I imagine the image is supposed to be the content, which would be a photo post
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Zegnat What is photo reply?
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Loqi photo reply is a reply with a photo, thus also a photo post that is in-reply-to another post https://indieweb.org/photo_reply
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[jgmac1106] think I used it correct here: https://jgmac1106homepage.glitch.me/ccglobalsummit.html
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Loqi [J. Gregroy McVerry] Community is the Curriculum: Aligning Praxis, Pedagogy and Product on the IndieWeb https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4846/45670455672_82edff836f_z.jpg
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Zegnat Basically that, though that page doesn’t seem to have a markup example
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sknebel !mf2 https://indieweb.org/chat-name-badge
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Kaja https://php.microformats.io/?url=https%3A%2F%2Findieweb.org%2Fchat-name-badge
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Loqi [IndieWeb.org] chat-name-badge https://indieweb.org/images/9/93/Chat-NameBadge.png
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Zegnat That seems like a featured image the way I would describe the term, yes, [jgmac1106]
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Zegnat On the ccglobalsummit page
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Zegnat Fun choice of pic too
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jgmac1106 yeah [sknebel] forgot about Kaja….seems each issuance woudl be its own wiki page…is that too much for a wiki…be baack later
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sknebel bit confused by the category things - seems like you meant to make those properties instead of categories called that?
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Zegnat Wiki doesn’t really care how many pages it has. I’d like to see all the “issuances” of the same badge on one page, fun way to see who has them. Just not sure *our* wiki has a simple way of supporting that
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jgmac1106 well then you syndicate a badge post to the badge page and the badge post sends the webmention
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[tantek] aaronpk, jgmac1106, zegnat, re: the wiki auto sending webmentions etc., see the Wikipedia indieweb projects also — ideally we'd prototype this functionality and get it working on the IndieWeb wiki before Wikipedia: https://indieweb.org/MediaWiki#Building_Block_Proposals
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jgmac1106 Yeah I was experimenting there, <span p=“p-category”>criteria</span> would have parsed better
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jgmac1106 yep [tantek] two birds…
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jgmac1106 sknebel I was trying to copy the way gRegorLove uses states on read posts…but <data class="p-category" value="$">$name </data> doesn’t parse as well
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sknebel but you want those to be text, not just a few states, right?
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sknebel so using categories doesn't seem to make much sense?
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[kevinmarks] Should we have a u-featured image for a feed or person?
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[kevinmarks] Given that twitter/mastodon/Facebook/g+ have an equivalent
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[kevinmarks] Or should that be u-banner or something?
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GWG I go with featured
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[kevinmarks] I think it belongs to the feed, but mastodon seems to associate it with the author
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GWG That would be if it was in the author property, wouldn't it
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jgmac1106 [skenbel] hat I really want is p-criteria and p-evidence so I would be able to quikcly parse and sort through posts…but trying to do this with existing properties
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jgmac1106 what*
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jgmac1106 trying to figure out away that when I scan a parsed badge I will see the critera and evidence all nicely nested like
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jgmac1106 I am also wondering if a badge should be an h-review and not an h-entry
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[jgmac1106] [kevinmarks] do you mean the banner img behind someone's avatr. I would call that the u-featured of an author property....or just the u-featured of that page
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GWG Exactly. Of the parent property
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GWG A featured image of the h-entry, h-card, or h-feed
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