#dev 2018-12-18

2018-12-18 UTC
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[manton] Micro.blog doesn't attempt to normalize anything to https in the token endpoint, but that domain does redirect to https. Signing in with the https version should fix it.
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Loqi [manton]: [eddie] left you a message 20 hours, 40 minutes ago: There is a discussion in the IndieWeb channel about an error with a Micro.blog site and Aperture. https://chat.indieweb.org/2018-12-16#t1544997797573400 The error seems to say that the Micro.blog token is returning http rather than https, I'm wondering if that needs to be updated on M.b IndieAuth
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[manton] I often err on the side of not enforcing https because so many things can go wrong with people's domain name configuration and SSL. Micro.blog does connect to someone's blog and verify that SSL is working, though, so I could default to https here if that verification passed.
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sknebel [manton]: they said they tried logging in with https
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aaronpk [manton]: the problem is with the URL that the token endpoint is returning in response to checking a token. micro.blog appears to always respond with http.
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KartikPrabhu jgmac1106: fyi, you don't need to follow my CV to get updated on my papers, https://kartikprabhu.com/papers has a h-feed ;)
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jgmac1106 ..yeah going to do that with my publication feed…just thinking about how I could subscribe to a vita….must admint I don’t have the patience to add mf2 to APA the way you do
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KartikPrabhu I did it once by hand and rest is copy-paste from there. though it needs some cleanup
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[jgmac1106] ...keep trying to get someone to help build us a citation builder...has to be done by hand...but want to be able to select citation style and get the HTMl putput with mf2 included
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[jgmac1106] @kartikprabhu and to me this shows a great examples of an h-feed as a collection...though I guess there isn't a post for each paper on ypur website so collection def doesn
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[jgmac1106] 'fit
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[jgmac1106] speaking of this: https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/12/17/thanks-smokeyyeah-i-love-planets-every-community is there a way to build a planet using mf2 feeds or any microsub reader out there....hoping not to use inoreader for Planets next semester
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Loqi [Greg McVerry] Thanks @smokey...yeah I love planets. Every community should have one. I need to get somebody to help me build one using a social reader for my classes in January.
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aaronpk aperture can do that kinda
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[jgmac1106] ..even if its just links doesn't need embedded micropub....though I'd kiss ya for that
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aaronpk https://stream.indieweb.org is a front-end on top of an Aperture channel
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[jgmac1106] perfect.
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aaronpk right now that front-end is Monocle. i've been considering pulling out just the public part into its own project that would be easily installable on shared hosting and you could point it at a channel in any microsub server
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[jgmac1106] ...yeah tried wrapping entire thing in an iframe to no avail
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[jgmac1106] that would be super neat [aaronpk]
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GWG Good evening
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[manton] [sknebel] [aaronpk] Micro.blog does not modify the client_id. It generates a token and stores it with whatever the client_id passed in was.
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aaronpk This is the users profile url not the client ID
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aaronpk if you can make me a test account I can point a subdomain to that's configured with both http and https I would be happy to try to reproduce this
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[manton] Sorry, the "me" parameter, right? Same thing, it doesn't modify it. It literally returns exactly what was passed.
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[manton] After it verifies that it matches the code, etc.
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aaronpk Ok then I'll need to step through this yo track down what's actually happening, I was just going off what was described as the problem
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aaronpk could you set me up with a new test blog with a custom domain?
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[manton] Sure. Did you want to test with your own subdomain or a something.micro.blog?
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aaronpk Probly a better test with my own domain
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[manton] I should set this up too for testing. Definitely want to fix it if there's an issue! Just seems like we would've noticed something wrong with other IndieAuth apps too.
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Loqi it is probable
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aaronpk Monocle/Aperture is a little different because of how the parts relate to each other. Normally an app can use the "me" as the account without any checks. But in this case Aperture is expecting a particular account already when it's verifying the token.
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aaronpk The other thing that should fix this is if micro.blog redirected http to https when https was enabled, so that it isn't serving two copies of the site
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[manton] Yeah, in this case it is redirecting to https. But it's not forcing https on the "me" if someone types in http when signing in.
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aaronpk Ok cool subdomain is configured now, DNS will take about 30 minutes
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[jgmac1106] well since you are playing with tokens...you two fix this and the get going at adding IndieAuth so I don't have to check my email anymore...mmmkay
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mblaney [jgmac1106] you can create your own planet on https://unicyclic.com, it's how I created https://unicyclic.com/indieweb
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aaronpk ooh i didn't know you could create new ones
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mblaney aaronpk yup it's just setting up the reader and then making the page public
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mblaney ("just".... it could be a little easier to use :-/ )
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[jgmac1106] [manton] and [aaronpk] really the expectation should be for the user to not type either http:// or https:// and just type jgregorymcverry.com
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aaronpk of course, and that's what should be happening right now as long as the site is configured to redirect http to https.
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aaronpk the problem is when a site does not redirect then it appears to be two different sites, and if the user types in http one time and https the next time, or if the site reports the URL as one or the other, then there is the confusion
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aaronpk these days i actually type in "aaronpk.com" when I log in to things, because that is easier to type and it redirects properly to "https://aaronparecki.com"
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[jgmac1106] @mblaney this is perfect, this all I need for class..we just turn indiepay.me into indiebadge.me and I am almost all set
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[jgmac1106] ....though just realize you can't have students work on a website for a year and then make them start over...will have a WordPress cohort
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[jgmac1106] but I can add them to this feed
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jgmac1106 @mblaney can I use plain text/html or there a rich text editor on top?
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jgmac1106 not that it matters….I can’t micropub notes with html because of the rich text editor in known…been trying to hunt down the controller
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mblaney it has a rich text editor but that has a source mode, so you get both.
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jgmac1106 ..but if you could add a souce code button to yoru WYSIWYG button…
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jgmac1106 I don’t see it
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mblaney (except for micropub I only do html anyway)
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jgmac1106 that is what I wanr
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jgmac1106 want
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mblaney to create a planet you will need to create an account on unicyclic.com, see: https://unicyclic.com/register
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[jgmac1106] I am there....will play...this is a huge piece for my classes
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mblaney if you want to get into detail about setting that up maybe we should chat over email? probably don't need to clog up #dev
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mblaney https://unicyclic.com/contact will send me an email :-)
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[jgmac1106] I mean just the planet...will stick in student blogs...not enough time between semesters to think that big..and enjoy the holidays
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mblaney yeah I just meant for the planet too, either way
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jgmac1106 …I am too close to be being done…on migration as well….didn’t even think about unicyclic and dobrado.
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jgmac1106 will zap an email…been sitting at my computer for too many hours with a goal to finish something I haven’t satrted…just need to add a flexbox of circles to my resume
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[jgmac1106] !tell chrisburnell you might be interested in https://unicyclic.com with your effort to add microformats to your learning platform....
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jgmac1106 Got to here on the flexbox clasess, the wo p elements look like crap with flex set to row…wondering if I need to put a felxbox in each box and set it to column https://jgmac1106homepage.glitch.me/resume.html
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jgmac1106 too tired figure out…back at it in morning
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mblaney damn I wrote some image resizing code a while ago to deal with grantcode's high res images, but it failed to run because it couldn't match the image type. next time grant.... next time.
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jacky aaronpk: regarding redirects; that's something I've been very careful with; to keep going down until I get a 2xx code
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jacky because I know myself to type in just `jacky.wtf` expecting `https://jacky.wtf`
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Loqi jackyalcine
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sknebel jacky: note that IndieAuth has specific rules for doing this (e.g. temporary redirects are followed for discovery, but do *not* update the url)
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jacky like not to update the URI provided by the user?
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sknebel yes. e.g. my site redirects you to /posts/ since I don't have a dedicated front page (yet), but I still get logged in as just https://www.svenknebel.de
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[kevinmarks] The 301/302 distinction is important
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Zegnat So important the examples made it into the spec: https://indieauth.spec.indieweb.org/#redirect-examples
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Zegnat !tell jgmac1106 re: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-12-18/1545093450409200 I am still game. You just need to figure out what it is exactly you need to have done ;)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [[jgmac1106]] ...keep trying to get someone to help build us a citation builder...has to be done by hand...but want to be able to select citation style and get the HTMl putput with mf2 included
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[jgmac1106] @zegnat, perfect If I build the HTML form fields for each type and then map the mf2 to each citation would that be enough?
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Loqi [jgmac1106]: Zegnat left you a message 21 minutes ago: re: https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2018-12-18/1545093450409200 I am still game. You just need to figure out what it is exactly you need to have done ;)
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GWG Morning
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Loqi happy day
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Zegnat jgmac1106, uuh, probably? :P You have seen the HTML citation templates on our previous project, could we just reuse those?
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Zegnat Except instead of reading from BibTeX we get the values from a form
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KartikPrabhu oooh hey bibtex to mf2 I am interested now :)
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Zegnat !tell KartikPrabhu BibTeX to HTML with mf2 brainstorm: https://github.com/Zegnat/php-greg-cites
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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jgmac1106 !tell KartikPrahbu we tested soooo many BibTex exports and web scrapers…huge garbage in, garbage out problem. Has ro be manual form entry. @cjwillcock is playing twith hypothes.is APi to see if highlighting can be used for entry……he wait
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sknebel oh, ZoteroBib might also be an interesting target: https://zbib.org/
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jgmac1106 !tell KartikPrahbu…could we use fragmentions for [cjwillcock]’s idea of highlighting as data input?
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sknebel hi snarfed!
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snarfed hi!
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jgmac1106 I reached out to Zotero team, they are happy with Dublin Core for metadata, I couldn’t figure out how to inject the mf2…buit after decades of all the citation tools keep coming back to manual iuntil it hurts
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[kevinmarks] Yes, bookmark of a fragmention is a highlight/excerpt
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sknebel jgmac1106: I mean adding an output to it, not having it parse mf2
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jgmac1106 yes, what I meant sorry
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sknebel snarfed: I made a PyPI account - can you add me or do I need to ask someone else?
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snarfed i'l llook
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[kevinmarks] http://www.kevinmarks.com/mentionquote.html
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sknebel "sknebel" is the username
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Loqi Mentions as quotes 2015-05-22
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jgmac1106 ..wait this is different..I thought you meant Zoero the entire citation management system
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sknebel same people, probably same basic infrastructure, but this is a simpler web-thing
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snarfed sknebel: huh i can't actually manage the pypi project myself :(
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jgmac1106 [kevinmarks] then it is a matter of tagging title, author, page number, etc and transforming that….checkign this out [sknebel]
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snarfed looks like i'm a maintainer, and i (or you) need to be an owner
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sknebel so I ask Kartik?
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snarfed can't easily tell who the current owner(s) are. probably tommorris and/or KartikPrabhu
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sknebel ok
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snarfed gl!
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sknebel jgmac1106: maybe it'd even be possible to do something with their weird citation styling language, although I guess some things like "authors have URLs" aren't expected in their view of the world
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sknebel but reusing the data extraction bits from an existing system would probably be helpful
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jgmac1106 I would want an optional author url for the h-card
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sknebel (e.g. I tried zbib with one of my papers which was published at ACM and it at least clearly figured out the individual authors instead of only one large string from bibtex)
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jgmac1106 here is my problem with all thigns zotero..I never understand their licensing, if it is OSS, and if so where they keep it all
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jgmac1106 https://github.com/zotero/bib-web
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sknebel ? it's all AGPL3 afaik
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Loqi [zotero] bib-web: Front-end code for ZoteroBib
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jgmac1106 neermind easier to find from that page than zotero.org
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jgmac1106 it is all in React..I’ll never be able to make sense of it
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sknebel interesting, wikipedia uses the zotero extractors too
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[jgmac1106] does the best job so far...might be worth persuing
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swentel hmm if there are multiple dt-published values, which one should you decide to use as the actual post time ?
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swentel this is an example - https://aaronparecki.com/2018/12/11/13/ - the repost itself is on dec 11, but the original one is 22 oct
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swentel my reader logic is going crazy on it haha :)
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swentel I guess the newest date makes most sense ?
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aaronpk hm i didn't think i was publishing multiple dates
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aaronpk shoot
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sknebel yeah, that seems like a markup bug
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aaronpk that first one is supposed to be inside the h-cite
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aaronpk the first one is the date of the thing i'm reposting. the second one is the date of my repost, which is the one you want
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swentel ah ok
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sknebel swentel: "reader logic"? a microsub reader never should see two dates
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aaronpk oh yeah also that ^^
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swentel sknebel, well, the parsing part, sorry
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sknebel ok, just making sure
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swentel I'm testing auto cleanup now in the drupal server part, as in, say only keep last 20 items
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swentel and this one was coming back all the time
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aaronpk ah yeah
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aaronpk i had that same problem with some feeds
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aaronpk did not come up with a good solution
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swentel mastodon is also interesting, with the concept of pinned toots
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swentel more or less the same problem there
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aaronpk some of my tag pages have pinned posts too
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sknebel are you putting the pinned posts in the feed?
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aaronpk they just are there by default
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aaronpk i might end up switching into a mode where the server keeps only the posts that are in the current snapshot of the page instead of trying to apply additional logic
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sknebel wonder if pinned posts shouldn't be outside the feed (if there is an explicit feed)
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aaronpk i dunno, because if you subscribe to it the first time, you'd want that post to appear probably
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[jgmac1106] can you make it if a pinned post is read or clicked on it would dissapear and not reappear next time it is polled?
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sknebel hm, I wouldn't have thought so
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sknebel it should be in the feed at it's "original" location maybe
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[jgmac1106] If I add u-featured in an image above content should it show in Aperture/Indigenous?
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[eddie] Hmmm good question. It definitely would not in Indigneous for iOS. Although I am curious if Aperture/XRay parses and presents that in the data object, because if so, then it's on the clients
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[jgmac1106] Indigenous on Android shows OG imgs
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[jgmac1106] But not u-featured I think
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swentel doesn't say me anything no
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swentel but like eddie says, if it's on the object, then yeah, then it's on the client. I'm secretely hoping it's just the first image in the array :)
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[eddie] Oh it definitely won't be the first image in the array
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[eddie] it anything it would be parsed into the featured property
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aaronpk yeah "featured" is something very different from the normal "photo" property
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aaronpk and should be presented in apps differently too
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Zegnat Or not be presented at all, I'm guessing. As they are sort of meant to be cover art, if the reader isn't very graphical foregoing the feature image seems like a valid choice?
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Zegnat E.g. if the image is critical for the post, it should be the post content and not just a featured image
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[jgmac1106] I ignore all SEO tricks accept my featured img. I figured u-featured is IndieWeb version of Open Graph
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[jgmac1106] Plus I put time into curating or remixing my images... That's my problem with the entire CSS/HTML img debate
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[jgmac1106] I can't separate Design from meaning. I put time into remixing images or curating artists. But yes leave it on the client... Or better yet ask user
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[jgmac1106] Though as I learn CSS Grid I can drop many of my hacky background img tricks
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[adamprocter] [jgmac1106] 👍
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[adamprocter] and ps CSS grid is ace
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Zegnat “I figured u-featured is IndieWeb version of Open Graph” - I don’t understand
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jgmac1106 [zegnat] as in basically all anyone cares about with OG is making there picture appear in feeds, facebook, twitter, linkedin…They really don’t care about any of the other metadat..it just goes along for the ride. I assumed in social readers this was purpose of u-featured…or atleast one use case.
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jgmac1106 but for folks such as your self who live by a “show me only words and if you try javascript I cut you…” mantra…you should be able to toggle it on and off in a reader
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Zegnat Currently I believe very few of the RSS feeds I subscribe to ever include the feature images they would use on the website. And I am all the happier for it
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jgmac1106 exactly lets design for a world that makes everyone happy
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jgmac1106 show featured img yes or no on radial button
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[eddie] I do think featured image is something that will be nice to use in some readers, I think there are few enough cases of it, that it is one of the later features to be added to readers probably
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jgmac1106 for me it’s not just the conversion rates…the reason the imgs work for lasting impressions in SEO is rally marketing to how the brain learns. If I need students to retain things I include images
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Zegnat If the images have a specific purpose within the post, I’d argue they shouldn’t be *just* feature images. Should be included in the content.
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[eddie] Agreed. Featured images should be ornamental (or in the case of multi-photo posts, a duplicate of an existing photo already in the photos array)
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[eddie] Anything in featured should always be seen as optional upgrades
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[jgmac1106] okay...interesting...coming from a WP world people would never do that as you just see the same img twice
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[jgmac1106] you put your most important img in the featured img post, the one pic that is the essence of your post..It isn't ornamental it a summary a visual version of p-summary
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[jgmac1106] and if you put a featured img and then the same image on WP themes it usually creates two of the same images stacked....so msot people default to featured
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[schmarty] [jgmac1106] that sounds like a limitation of wordpress as a CMS. there is nothing to stop you having a photo in the content of a post and marking it up as u-featured.
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jgmac1106 u-photo will POSSE to Twitter and no silos recognize u-featured, but thanks everyone getting picture now…yeah [schmarty] each theme plays a little different but most just take featured imag and display in conent and copy the link to OG….
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jgmac1106 thanks for conversation all…Still think u-featured should be the #IndieWeb answer to open graph and the first img with u-featured in or out of content should be included with the feed reader as the author is saying “feature this” and the client can say, “no” or empower user to say “yes or no”
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Zegnat Feature image (in mf2 parlance) is more like those big (sometimes blurred) images that are used as backgrounds for headers. Or a (clickbait-y) thumbnail to display along a title in a list of titles. If WordPress uses the same term but to mean something is the main image adding value to the rest of the content, that would mean we sadly have two meanings for the word :(
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Zegnat mf2 feature is the same as the OpenGraph one, for those articles who just link a special OpenGraph picture in a hidden metatag. I.e. it isn’t assumed that the preview picture is also meant to be content, it just illustrates the content in some way
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gkbrk yo!
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jgmac1106 there are value judgements and what you write, yes people use hero images for clickbaity stuff,as I said it works becasue that is how brain learns, but for many of us those featured images are part of the post indicating as much meaning as the title
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jgmac1106 welcome gkbrk
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jgmac1106 I put time and effort into making those blurry clickbaity things: https://medium.com/the-binder/the-story-edu-522-5f28b34d8cf9 and feturing an iimg is featuring an artist and helping the Commons grow IMO
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gkbrk I've been on and off the indieweb wiki for some time, and today I decided to add webmention support to my website. Does anyone have any issues with getting webmention or pingback spam?
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jgmac1106 I get then they should be in content, going to move it. I mean reader behaivor. If I include a u-feature I want to trigger the img be included in the feed
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jgmac1106 gkbrk: [aaronpk] just posted the first article we have really found..haven’t found any yet…but as things grow
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jgmac1106 folks are working on /vouch as a solution
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jgmac1106 let me find Aaron’s post
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sknebel gkbrk: webmention spam isn't a thing yet
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aaronpk Except that one that adactio got ;-)
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sknebel pingback spam very much is, so if you bridge pingbacks to webmention you'll see spam
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aaronpk That was targeted spam tho so slightly different
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sknebel aaronpk: I'm still not subscribing to the "that definitively was spam" line
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aaronpk The first one was a test but then they clearly sent a webmentionto get the link to show up then removed the link to adactio
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aaronpk which looks very much like spam at that point
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Zegnat Yes, the removal of the link was fishy
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aaronpk and they did it to multiple of their posts
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jgmac1106 even better back to zero!!!
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Zegnat The first one was just an interesting interaction from a adult service website apparently implementing Webmentions. (Didn’t the post even talk about web tech?!) Them removing the offsite link to adactio is sad. Otherwise it would have been a great example of how every blog (and business!) can send webmentions
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gkbrk my comments section gets manual approval for each post, if I do the same for pingbacks I assume it will be better
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jgmac1106 ohh if you have moderation then job is done
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Zegnat “if you have moderation then job is done” - unless you get flooded with pingbacks and you start not always approving real comments because of the volume
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Zegnat I think GWG has talked about that possibly being a problem
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jgmac1106 …sorry again used to WP plugins
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Zegnat (Specifically pingbacks though.)
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gkbrk also I noticed that the firefox extension for webmentions disappeared
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jgmac1106 yes history of pingback spam is known was hoping reduction of page rank would remove this..but alas
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Zegnat There was a firefox extension? Did anyone use that? I just helped revive the rel-me extension, I would be willing to do the same for a webmention extension!
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gkbrk I hope more people used similar stuff, I normally used refbacks for my website but with more and more people blocking referer headers it's getting harder to use
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gkbrk short of making your own web crawler or paying a company lots of money to monitor your backlinks, webmention/pingback seem like decent solutions
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Zegnat gkbrk, was it this addon? https://github.com/eliemichel/firefox-webmention-addon
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Loqi [eliemichel] firefox-webmention-addon: Firefox add-on to send webmentions though context menu
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Zegnat Or maybe you can’t tell from just source…
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gkbrk I never used it
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gkbrk but I like the idea of it
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gkbrk If that doesn't work I'll probably make my own crawler/extension/proxy to automatically look for pingback/webmention endpoints and send it
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Zegnat Hmm, that repo isn’t clearly licensed. So I don’t feel good about reviving it :/
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gkbrk A new one might work better, I don't think it will be too much code honestly
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[eddie] jgmac1106: Yeah I think u-featured is a great way to suggest the presentation of an image in reader clients. I think we're in agreement. Just know unlike u-photo, u-featured won't ALWAYS be included, but in the long-run it'll be nice when readers have a nice presentation for u-featured
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@jgmac1106 Getting closer to #IndieWeb I want. Believe if we had webrings that also had an embeddable chat that was a micropub client and connected to a websub enabled Microsub server we could make instantaneous chat. Design a widget that includes chat and webring… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/12/18/getting-closer-to-indieweb-i-want-believe (twitter.com/_/status/1075141258845282304)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ With #IndieWeb work being done on private and semi-private posting using tokens generated through IndieAuth we can take back the web. Don't even store the data. Let chat be ephemeral...it has work for, let's see....all of human history. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/2e2qru) (twitter.com/_/status/1075141803299491843)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ You then include a community-based search engine that is opt-in through IndieAuth, user gets to decide what content gets crawled, only available to others in the ring, you then add the micropub and microsub chat client (member only). #IndieWeb (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/25hVLs) (twitter.com/_/status/1075142817515798529)
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@jgmac1106 How would this work with credibility? , You are a group of conservative journalists fed up with the lamestream media. Develop minimum set of credentials. Journalists can apply to the ring, get vetted. They get your seal of approval (webmention badge)… https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/2018/12/18/how-would-this-work-with-credibility (twitter.com/_/status/1075143373558857728)
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jgmac1106 [eddie] example of how I am using u-featured. Goal is to show off the artist as much as me, our pieces work in symbiosis to create meaning
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jgmac1106 https://jgmac1106homepage.glitch.me/ccglobalsummit.html
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Loqi [J. Gregroy McVerry] Community is the Curriculum: Aligning Praxis, Pedagogy and Product on the IndieWeb https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4846/45670455672_82edff836f_z.jpg
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sknebel (should probably credit Julie then and not tollwerk)
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jgmac1106 ….will do, let her know that is how they set the author in Flickr
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jgmac1106 It’s just a browser extension that makes the license using flickr api
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jacky web rings as a service
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KartikPrabhu sknebel: I do not have adding rights to mf2py on pypi
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: Zegnat left you a message 6 hours, 44 minutes ago: BibTeX to HTML with mf2 brainstorm: https://github.com/Zegnat/php-greg-cites
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sknebel KartikPrabhu: ok, thx
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@jgmac1106 There are some privacy issues then around webmentions. Are posts set only to group gone forever? What about webmentions from ring members on public posts? (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1etjAG) (twitter.com/_/status/1075151367608692738)
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@jgmac1106 ↩️ Think I'd go with webmentions on post set to group gone forever. Have in u-reply-of links 400 to whatever means, "Warning banned member" webmentions in public, I'd say talk about me in the town Square and I can write it down and repeat it. (https://quickthoughts.jgregorymcverry.com/s/1GNrnM) (twitter.com/_/status/1075152018564616193)
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