#dev 2019-01-10

2019-01-10 UTC
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[tantek] What is YQL
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "YQL" yet. Would you like to create it? (Or just say "YQL is ____", a sentence describing the term)
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[cleverdevil] https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/new-amazon-documentdb-with-mongodb-compatibility-fast-scalable-and-highly-available/
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[cleverdevil] Cool. MongoDB compatible managed service from AWS.
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@PinoBatch ↩️ Currently it's a protocol (microformats2 and Webmention over HTTPS). It needs indexing and recommendation ("Related" stuff) to make a complete platform, as one job of a platform is to surface thoughts written by other users. (twitter.com/_/status/1083152671786369024)
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[eddie] Oh cool!
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[tantek] Interesting, Yahoo Search has had a more interesting history than I expected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Search#Search_technology_acquisition (beyond just switching to using a Bing backend in 2010)
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[tantek] snarfed, back in the day (~10y ago!) YQL allowed for querying microformats from arbitrary web pages in Yahoo's search index! http://microformats.org/wiki/yahoo-search#YQL
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[Rose] Is micropub.rocks still ok? It's throwing weird stuff at me which my micropub endpoint can't (yet) handle.
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[Rose] php://input and $_POST are both showing empty. Hence the question.
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[Rose] Scratch that, I used the wrong PHP array function
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[Rose] And an object is not an array. 4am me is really not smart.
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[Rose] Whee, my micropub endpoint no longer causes problems for my Aperture install!
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[cleverdevil] Rose++ congrats 🙂
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Loqi Rose has 4 karma in this channel over the last year (12 in all channels)
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[eddie] Yay!!
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[eddie] [Rose]++
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Loqi [Rose] has 5 karma in this channel over the last year (13 in all channels)
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Loqi :D
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[Rose] (It also works, seemingly, just modifying my destination setup so it's at least human readable, if not precisely human friendly)
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[Rose] Does this look right to you folks?
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[Rose] ```
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[Rose] {
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[Rose] "media-endpoint": "https://rosemaryorchard.com/media-endpoint.php",
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[Rose] "destination": [
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[Rose] {
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[Rose] "uid": "https://rosemaryorchard.com/microblog",
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[Rose] "name": "MicroBlog"
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[Rose] },
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[Rose] {
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[Rose] "uid": "https://rosemaryorchard.com/blog",
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[Rose] "name": "Blog"
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[Rose] },
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[Rose] {
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[Rose] (Before anyone asks about the logic behind the 3 aliases to blog: they're actually stored in 3 different folders.)
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[eddie] So the only thing that will get passed BACK to your micropub endpoint is the uid
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[eddie] so they DO have to be unique
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[eddie] but you could add another folder to the UID for the blog or do something like #folderid
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[Rose] I can use the folder name.
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[eddie] awesome, yeah, you’ll definitely want to do that since only the uid gets returned
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[Rose] That's just changing which key gets pulled out of the config
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[eddie] :thumbsup:
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[eddie] Besides that it looks right, without me looking through the spec
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[Rose] I checked the sample, it looks about right
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[eddie] 🙌
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[Rose] Just wanted to ask, I'm running on 3 hours of sleep so programming is not the smartest thing I could be doing right now 😛
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[eddie] hehe I’ve been there 🙂
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[cleverdevil] I get some of my best programming done when I am exhausted ;_
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[cleverdevil] 😉
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[Rose] It's 7am though, justabout, so I can reasonably make breakfast and other noise now. Though my typing is not the quietest 😛
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[cleverdevil] Well, [eddie] and I are about to record an episode of twodads.fm, so keep it down.
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[cleverdevil] 😉
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[Rose] Have fun! 😄
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@mxbck ✏️ new post: pulling interactions from social media back to your site using webmentions! #indieweb #JAMstack https://mxb.at/blog/using-webmentions-on-static-sites/ (twitter.com/_/status/1083295735402110976)
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@philhawksworth Brilliant! I've been wanting to do this for some time... but then @mxbck implements Webmentions beautifully on his @eleven_ty site and shares exactly how with more clarity than I could have hoped for. Yoink! https://mxb.at/blog/using-webmentions-on-static-sites/ (twitter.com/_/status/1083332352963682305)
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[grantcodes] who is mxbck?
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Zegnat Not someone who has ever logged in to the wiki, I think
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Zegnat Who is mxb.at?
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Zegnat wonders if that even works
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Zegnat Who is Www.svenknebel.de?
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Zegnat Apparently not. Guess who is only works for chat names, not for user pages
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[grantcodes] Hmm he's writing good stuff though 🙂
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@calum_ryan Static Indieweb pt2: Using Webmentions by @mxbck » (https://mxb.at/blog/using-webmentions-on-static-sites/) (https://calumryan.com/note/2352) (twitter.com/_/status/1083352544355799040)
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jeremycherfas Well, that's a drag. The Comments plugin on Grav seems to have vanished all previous comments. None in backups either. I'm somewhat peeved.
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@kimberlyhirsh This & associated links are going on my to-read list. In the meantime, check out @indiewebcamp. (She said, realizing the irony in tweeting this directly rather than replying via her own site and webmentions...) (twitter.com/_/status/1083368488293580801)
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sknebel [grantcodes]: what auth library are they using?
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[grantcodes] sknebel: It's all my micropub-helper library
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sknebel ah, that's why I didn't find it
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[grantcodes] Yeah, I do need to separate it out to just the auth part at some point
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[schmarty] cleverdevil++ thanks for this proof-of-concept on overcast export! i was inspired to start pulling listen posts out of it.
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Loqi cleverdevil has 41 karma in this channel over the last year (85 in all channels)
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aaronpk yeah I need to look at that too! that might be enough of a reason for me to stick with overcast instead of using overcast and castro half the time right now which is really annoying
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[schmarty] !tell cleverdevil what details of your overcast listens are you sending to your site (over micropub)?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[schmarty] my site is very pull-based when it comes to responses. e.g. i would expect a listen-of property to be a URL, and the build process would look up the details of that URL.
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[schmarty] but (not for the first time) i am interested in sending more detail about that listen-of directly via micropub
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[cleverdevil] So I’d advise against actually using the script until we hear from Marco 😉
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[cleverdevil] I’ve been rate limited for a long while now.
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Loqi [cleverdevil]: [schmarty] left you a message 1 minute ago: what details of your overcast listens are you sending to your site (over micropub)?
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Loqi [cleverdevil]: [schmarty] left you a message 1 minute ago: what details of your overcast listens are you sending to your site (over micropub)?
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[schmarty] [cleverdevil] oh yeah, i'm not hitting the website constantly. i grabbed a single export and have been poking at it with my own code.
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[cleverdevil] 😀
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[schmarty] i'm starting to think my micropub endpoint should look for nested microformats objects wherever it might expect a URL
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[cleverdevil] So I’m sending a pretty minimal set of information: podcast name, episode title, episode summary, and artwork. I think that’s it.
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[cleverdevil] Oh and podcast URL.
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[cleverdevil] (For the episode.)
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[schmarty] cleverdevil: sending them now? a custom known thing?
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[cleverdevil] I’m also not using Micropub.
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[schmarty] gotcha! that makes sense
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[cleverdevil] I’m sending directly to a custom endpoint because I find extending Known’s Micropub implementation to be maddening :P
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[schmarty] my endpoint already needs to look for nested h-cards in tags, so maybe i will generalize that. i'm really tempted to model how X-Ray turns everything into a URL and then includes a "refs" property w/ the nested info.
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[schmarty] (ownyourswarm sends nested tag info when you check in to a place with someone)
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Zegnat I wish the whole gpodder thing had caught on in podcast land. So my player could talk directly to my website.
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[schmarty] cleverdevil: oh yeah i forgot about the internals of the known micropub handler. it's not the most extensible. 😆
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[cleverdevil] The entire Known Micropub and Indieauth implementation honestly needs to be rewritten.
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[cleverdevil] But I’m not a very good PHP programmer :P
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jeremycherfas [cleverdevil] I'm a bit lost. Are you still talking about the Listen plugin you modified? Not seeing how it connects to the Overcast OPML
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[cleverdevil] I wrote a script that can publish Listen records on my site based upon my Overcast history.
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jeremycherfas Ah. So it publishes Listen records but does not necessarily use the Listen plugin?
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[cleverdevil] It does use the Listen plugin.
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jeremycherfas I know no Python, but your script is useful and informative. I'm guessing I could try to use it as the basis for a PHP version, maybe sending to Grav rather than Known.
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aaronpk :sigh: instagram changed something again and now posts with photos and videos aren't showing up right in XRay
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aaronpk or wait, did I just never handle that?
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aaronpk ahh yeah because there isn't a good answer for how to do that in h-entry :(
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sknebel mixed posts? I remember there was discussions on how to express that
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aaronpk do we have an open issue for this?
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aaronpk because right now the photo property is treated as a poster image for the video, so it's not clear how to represent a post with both a photo and a video
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sknebel somewhere I think so, yes
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aaronpk is this an h-entry thing or a post type discovery thing?
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sknebel both?
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sknebel I remember in berlin there was some talk about adding wrapper objects to express that, and e.g. advanced properties for photos
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aaronpk https://github.com/tantek/post-type-discovery/issues/29
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Loqi [aaronpk] #29 poster frame for videos
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aaronpk hah adding that to the wiki shows up in the github history because there's a git commit that matches it
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sknebel (something along the lines of proposals for hMedia in mf1, although h-entry might work too)
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aaronpk oh hm, so like if you have a list of media where the order is important and is a mix of photos and videos, then you don't use the "photo" and "video" property in h-entry at all?
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sknebel hm. might be necessary. but what I remember was more along the lines of having an object instead of an url in the video property, and that object has the video url, the poster url, potentially an author, ...
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aaronpk ah sure that solves the poster issue
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sknebel but I don't see how mf2 can express an order between things in different properties, so yeah...
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aaronpk but there's still the ordering problem
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sknebel no good idea right now, especially none that parses neutrally (no specific features in the parsers, does something useful for existing implementations)
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sknebel well, I guess you could add a new property to both in addition, and ignore the others if it exists
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk thankfully it's not a very common case
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sknebel "u-media u-photo" ... "u-media u-video" ... "u-media u-photo"
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sknebel feels not great
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aaronpk I think it would have to be a new prefix actually
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aaronpk otherwise it's vocab-specific handling
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aaronpk but this is more #microformats now
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sknebel huh? the above would parse I think
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aaronpk oh I get it
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aaronpk and then separately also add the poster image thing
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aaronpk where the value of one of the "media" properties might be a fancier object with a poster image
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sknebel although if you add objects you still end up with objects in the u-video then too... but at least it could have a reasonable "value". not sure how many consumers can handle that though (they should in a way, but it's an easy enough shortcut to take...)
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sknebel ... and I found a parser bug
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sknebel ahhh
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[tantek] At some pong you’re trying to pack too much into one h-entry and should really be using a collection post, especially with mixing media and caring about ordering etc
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[tantek] *point 😂
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aaronpk this was prompted by instagram's multi-posts
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aaronpk which IMO are not the same as a collection post
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[tantek] They’re borderline
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[tantek] And last time we chatted we decided that once you’re mixing so much they’re no longer a multi- anything, they’re a collection
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[tantek] Keeping the microformats simple here is more important for more implementation interop
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[tantek] Since we last chatted you can add person-tags per item in those IG collection posts
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[tantek] So its way beyond fitting in one “entry” since they now have per item structure like that
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aaronpk hm yeah the tags per photo throw a wrench into that
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sknebel aaronpk: is there an xray issue to follow?
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[tantek] Sorta. I mean “per post” makes it clear it’s more a collection than a single post
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aaronpk sknebel: there is now https://github.com/aaronpk/XRay/issues/84
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Loqi [aaronpk] #84 Instagram multi-posts with videos
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sknebel thx
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sknebel what is collection?
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Loqi A collection is a type of post that explicitly lists and/or embeds multiple other posts chosen by the author https://indieweb.org/collection
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sknebel hm, markup for that is also still "brainstorming"
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Zegnat It does lists examples that people have already published though, which may be more telling than any markup brainstorming (ie: how have people actually done it)
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aaronpk goes down a different rabbit hole
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aaronpk starts poking around alt text in instagram
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aaronpk need to figure out how to represent this in jf2 now
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aaronpk [eddie] [grantcodes] and others, how would you expect to find alt text of a photo when writing a microsub client?
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aaronpk one of the goals of the jf2 format was to have values not change type all the time, so i'm hesitant to switch the `photo` values to objects when there is alt text
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[eddie] ahhh hmmm
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[eddie] if you don't want it to change from the photo url, I think the second most intuitive (to me) would be to store info about the photo url in the refs array by the photo url
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[eddie] I know it's not the exact same thing
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[eddie] but it's a system of referencing extra non-critical information that already exists and our code will support
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aaronpk that could work, or I guess even a new thing like that? alts?
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[eddie] yeah that would work
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aaronpk i'm not sure about the risks of using the same term for both but I like the idea of not adding new stuff
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[eddie] I wonder if alts would be TOO granular? but maybe there is an inbetween, something that isn't refs but is more broad
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[eddie] like metadata type array
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aaronpk oh yeah cause we've also talked about potentially adding image dimensions
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[eddie] yep, essentially any extra info from photo, video or audio could have metadata stored in the new "metadata" storage area
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[kevinmarks] Something like the urls structure in mf2?
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[kevinmarks] Where you list properties that belong to the linked urls?
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aaronpk you mean rel-urls?
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snarfed https://github.com/snarfed/granary/issues/159
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aaronpk yeah basically like that, but for data beyond rel values
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@simevidas ↩️ It may be a good idea to show the avatars here, in a horizontal list, so that visitors can see who’s in there before opening the webmentions. (twitter.com/_/status/1083423489216970752)
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[davidmead] [aaronpk] just updated the OYG issue in GitHub - till errors I’m afraid
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aaronpk ok thanks for checking!
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[davidmead] I did open an issue in idno/Known about this too
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aaronpk [eddie]: i'm thinking a new property "meta" next to "refs", which uses the URL as the key and the value is an object, and for now I will only include "alt", so e.g.:
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aaronpk {"type": "entry", ... "photo":["url1","url2"], ... "meta": { "url1": { "alt": "Alt Text" } } }
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aaronpk here's xray's output now: https://media.aaronpk.com/Screen-Shot-2019-01-10-10-25-36-pmBDQ3F8v7.jpg
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snarfed aaronpk: have you found instagram's alt text in its json yet?
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aaronpk yeah
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snarfed ooh got a link? i'd happily piggyback on you instead of dumpster diving myself
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aaronpk here's a sample photo https://www.instagram.com/p/BsdlOmLh_IX/ (2 photos)
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Loqi [pk_spam] This post has two photos with alt text https://scontent-iad3-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/f355072e7f911d8107f8c67c564d18d9/5CCC9B87/t51.2885-15/e35/47692921_321791688431421_3314633848293773579_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-iad3-1.cdninstagram.com
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aaronpk the property is called accessibility_caption
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snarfed i'd need the full path. have you pushed a commit that uses it yet?
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aaronpk not yet
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snarfed ok np
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aaronpk it's at the same level as the properties like "display_url"
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snarfed ah, then https://github.com/snarfed/granary/blob/master/granary/tests/test_instagram.py#L611
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snarfed thx
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[davidmead] [aaronpk] I think OYG is working for me
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aaronpk snarfed: also fyi videos can't have alt text
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snarfed yeah i figured
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[eddie] aaronpk: That looks great to me!
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[eddie] aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 83 karma in this channel over the last year (266 in all channels)
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aaronpk [eddie]: cool thanks!
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aaronpk the one thing is that, like refs, it's a property that exists in the same namespace as the microformats vocabulary properties, so that means this can never represent a mf2 property called "meta"
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[davidmead] ok. this is weird [aaronpk] . I disabled a plugin (InstagramShim 0.1) and I got 2 photos in OYG to post to my site. The third and fourth fail.
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aaronpk but I think that's fine given tantek's dislike of the term "meta" ;-)
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[davidmead] plugin still disabled, and I had tried with that plugin disabled before, but it didn’t have any effect
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aaronpk [davidmead]: I did just change stuff so that could be why
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[eddie] ahhhh that makes sense. As you said though, that's probably a safe bet, anything on an actual h-entry called meta would probably be ambiguous and have a better descriptor.
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[davidmead] well it worked for those couple of minutes 🙂
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aaronpk oh no lol they include default alt text
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snarfed yuuuup. from facebook's ML
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aaronpk oh wait what
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snarfed maybe i misunderstand. just a sec
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aaronpk the one I saw was just "No photo description available."
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snarfed right, that happens sometimes. here's an example when it works: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bq8U12UAcdq/
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snarfed "Image may contain: one or more people and hat"
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aaronpk oh wow
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aaronpk I guess that's okay to include still?
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aaronpk https://xray.p3k.app/parse?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.instagram.com%2Fp%2FBq8U12UAcdq%2F
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snarfed eh not sure. would be nice to distinguish
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snarfed looking at your example, evidently user-provided alt text overrides it
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aaronpk that also means it's gonna start being included in micropub requests to people if they enable that in ownyourgram
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snarfed wait does instagram also put the auto-generated alt text into the accessibility_caption json field?
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snarfed i hope not?
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aaronpk they do apparently
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snarfed really?!? oh man that's sad. no way to distinguish?!
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aaronpk other than the text "Image may contain"?
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aaronpk or maybe there's another property
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aaronpk continues poking around
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aaronpk caption_is_edited
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snarfed nah i expect that's for caption, not alt text
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aaronpk oh right they also call that caption
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aaronpk you're right
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snarfed (post content, yeah)
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aaronpk ok I don't see anything else that would indicate whether it's machine generated
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snarfed sigh. text matching it is then
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snarfed like farmers
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sknebel at the cost of an extra request you could identify it: the automated answers are localized...
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sknebel (also: how do we make sure your code always is always getting english? hopefully they go by accept-language header or so...)
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sknebel "Bild könnte enthalten: eine oder mehrere Personen und Hut"
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aaronpk an extra request to what?
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aaronpk oh like fetch it again and see if it changed? 😂
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sknebel yeah
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snarfed ugh, with the occasional false positive
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snarfed clever, but i'll stick with string matching
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aaronpk I think i'm actually going to leave the autogenerated captions in xray
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aaronpk i'm going to remove the 'No photo description available.' one tho
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sknebel verified, they respect accept-language headers
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sknebel so you can just send one for us-english and be sure to always get that
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aaronpk speaking of headers, I seem to be getting different CDN URLs depending on whether I fetch from my browser or from curl, but these are both from my laptop
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[schmarty] aaronpk, eddie: interesting choice to have X-Ray pass along "meta"! i have a bunch of "filemeta" stuff from the early days of my jekyll site when i wanted to indicate caption files for videos, whether a photo was a 360 panorama, etc. kind of excited to see some movement on this for jf2.
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[schmarty] it's an interesting difference of pattern, though. e.g. ownyourgram sends person-tags as nested h-cards in the tags array, and the mf2 spec calls for a nested object in the photo array when alt text is present.
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[schmarty] whereas jf2 seems to be heading towards parallel structures with lookups.
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aaronpk does it? It looks like OYG is only sending the URL for a person tag
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[schmarty] i'll need to find and re-send one to check it out, but back in the day i had to write special handling on my micropub endpoint to deal with the nested objects.
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[schmarty] maybe things changed!
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aaronpk I know it does for the "location" property
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[schmarty] oops i meant OYS
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aaronpk oh
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[schmarty] i don't use OYG but i *do* mix up the names 😆
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk well the main reason is micropub posts microformats JSON, so whatever you see in the JSON is what you'll see in micropub
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aaronpk there isn't really any overlap between micropub and jf2
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@justmarkup Static Indieweb pt2: Using Webmentions https://mxb.at/blog/using-webmentions-on-static-sites/ (twitter.com/_/status/1083449947763163138)
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@hi_bz @mxbck you article on using #webmentions with @eleven_ty is awesome! Thank you for that detailed look on how to make that work with the #JAMstack. So cool! (twitter.com/_/status/1083453374505336832)
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@hi_bz @mxbck you article on using #webmentions with @eleven_ty is awesome! Thank you for that detailed look on how to make that work with the #JAMstack. So cool! https://mxb.at/blog/using-webmentions-on-static-sites/ (twitter.com/_/status/1083453658522664967)
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[tantek] is skeptical about a “new "metadata" storage area” but will wait and see how prototyping/experimenting goes
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aaronpk remember this is not for publishers
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[tantek] that has nothing to do with it
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[tantek] it's about patching something with a non-scalable approach
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[tantek] just to avoid hierarchy
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aaronpk non-scalable?
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[tantek] first, most of this is not "meta" at all. "alt" is not meta - it's content
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[tantek] second, what happens when the stuff you put in a “new "metadata" storage area” needs its own meta?
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[tantek] I dislike the term meta because most of the time people use it incorrectly to refer to content or properties of content
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[tantek] the usability of the term "meta" is poor
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[eddie] https://chat.indieweb.org/dev/2019-01-10#t1547145225003000
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[eddie] 😆 speaking of tantek's "dislike of the term"
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[tantek] that's why I mentioned it - I caught up on logs 🙂
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[eddie] ahh okay. hehe
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[eddie] Loqi?? Where art thou, Loqi??
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[tantek] it's a crappy term. even computer scientists and librarians misuse the term.
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[tantek] Loqi is slacking
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[eddie] haha
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[tantek] interesting with the synthetic alts
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[tantek] I think aaronpk's approach there makes sense. leave out the non-content "There is no description" fixed static text
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[tantek] but if someone actually provided alt based on some AI or whatever that is even semi-useful (to a user, or speech UI), then keep it
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snarfed semi-useful is generous
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snarfed these in particular follow the pattern of "Image may contain: one or more persons, hat, sunset"
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snarfed maybe useful sometimes, particularly for visually imparied people, but personally i plan to omit them in granary, since i'd rather draw a clear bright line between user-provided and auto-generated
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[tantek] I can respect that too. Since granary does it's own format etc., maybe consider "auto-alt" as a secondary property?
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snarfed yeah makes sense
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[kevinmarks] Given that we are changing mf2 parsing to nest alt text, making jf2 match seems reasonable, though by default that would create a "children" property in jf2
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snarfed or just make alt multi-valued
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snarfed (nm wouldn't help in this case)
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[kevinmarks] As jf2 was a battle against multivalued defaults, not sure how that works
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snarfed [kevinmarks]: sorry, re tantek, not re you
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aaronpk [kevinmarks]: the other motivation of jf2 is to have values be a consistent type instead of switching between strings and objects
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Zegnat mf2 is pretty consistent to, basically whenwver you run into an object that you didn't expect you can use the object's "value" property to get it's string value instead.
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snarfed ok granary instagram does alt text now
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snarfed eg aaronpk's test post is https://granary.io/instagram/snarfed/@friends/@app/BsdlOmLh_IX?format=mf2-json
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aaronpk hm this means i need to update aperture ASAP then, since people are likely following instagram feeds from granary
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aaronpk oh nevermind, because they'd be using the html output of granary
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snarfed yeah as long as aperture handle composite (object) mf2 photo values, then i expect it's ok
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aaronpk it definitely doesn't, but also it doesn't let you follow mf2 json feeds IIRC
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snarfed ah i take it your php-mf2 doesn't do alt text yet
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snarfed ok
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aaronpk right yeah
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aaronpk i haven't updated any of that
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aaronpk need to settle on a jf2 representation in order to be able to update monocle for it too
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[tantek] have you figured out a methodology to evolve jf2 that doesn't involve one-off design decisions for every new feature? or is that going to be just the way jf2 operates moving forward?
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[tantek] (I respect that it's a hard problem, which is why I'm asking)
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aaronpk it's not exactly a one-off for every new feature
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aaronpk mf2 also developed a new thing for alt text that doesn't exist anywhere else in mf2
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[tantek] no it followed the pattern from e-
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aaronpk ehh, followed a pattern, but is still a unique thing
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[tantek] the problem with jf2 is the frozen in time assumptions about which properties are values and which are objects
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[tantek] s/problem/challenge
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aaronpk s/challenge/feature ;-)
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[tantek] not really a unique thing, as we considered the lang implications simultaneously so we came up with an approach, both re-using a pattern from e-* properties, and more broadly handling a class of features, rather than just a one-off
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[tantek] I do think the "use URLs as a key into a flat array" thing is interesting
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aaronpk that's basically the same thing that jf2 is doing, except it's just doing it differently
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aaronpk there's been some talk about helping out apps by providing things like dimensions of images or duration of audio files, so the same place that alt text lives can also hold those
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[tantek] huh? I don't get any of "basically the same thing" - looks completely different
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[tantek] the approach is quite different, a mechanism for extra info about things with URLs, vs. just extra info about things in general
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[tantek] also flat vs hierarchical